DA vs game

[Mr.Billfold]

Today, I was talking with a guy who keeps an inordinate amount of dogs over in alabama, but just dropped a litter 2 days ago at his house here. He has a 5 month old male, and I had seen him walk the pup before.
Brian told me that this guys 5 month old pup was a fool. he said that the pup got out of his collar and jumped on a full grown male and locked on.
he also said that this same puppy went after a female there in the yard.

Needless to say, I had to see what the deal was with this puppy...he will be 6 months in a week.

THe guy brings his dog over, and I suggest we walk teh dogs together. they got along fairly well, Flash wanted to play, this other one wanted to shake and bake.

man, this little puppy was ferocious. He was so good to me, he was sitting on command, he just would not play the radio with other dogs.

Now, from what limited experience I have had watching these dogs, it seems to me that the ones that are that agressive early, especially a male that wants to hit the females as much as the males, usually arent truly game, just rough curs, if you will.

What do you guys think?
Is 5-6 months a little early for this pup to be so turned on?

Im telling you folks, I have never seen a pup that young show what this one was showing.

IF a dog had that much aggression so young, how does that normally turn out down the road?
From historical experience, what yall think?

[EastTexas]

I have had a pup like that. But, He started a little younger. He started at 5 weeks, He would literally chase his littermate's around the kennel til they laid down and submitted and he would still jump on them. Sometimes it was over food and sometimes it was just because he would get excited when I went to check on them. I would have to go in the kennel and seperate him. As for how he turned out, I gave him to my brother who wanted another pit for a catch dog because he only had one catch dog and he would be out of hunting for a while if he lost his only catchdog. So he trained him just the same as his other catchdog, to get along with the other dog's. Then one day when my brother was at work, his older catchdog which was around 2 and a half couldn't resist the smell of one of my brother's cur dog's in heat. By the time my brother got home the older of the male's laid there within the pup that I gave him's chain reach. The pup was not even a year old yet, was still on the chain, and did not have a scratch on him.
And, No this was not on purpose, It was purely a yard accident.

[miakoda]

I guess I don't see any correlation between dog aggression and gameness. A DA dog is just one that is dog reactive to another dog and would prefer to start a ruckus than play nice. This breed wasn't bred for DA. DA is just a resulting trait from breeding for the pit. DA is found amongst all bulldog breeds and all terrier breeds due to their working backgrounds.

Gameness is a whole different ballgame.

The most DA dog I've ever seen is a Fox Terrier that would literally bark, whine, & strain so hard to get at another dog that it would literally pass out. But does anyone think it would be a game dog?. My guess is not a chance.

As for how that pup goes, I don't care how early it may turn on, a pup is a pup is a pup. I might be in the minority, but I don't allow puppies to play big dog games.

[Bullyson]

Duke Jr's littermate brother Chief was a beast at 4 months old. He was the 1st to have to be separated out of the litter. He was always HOT as hell, ready to catch something. Every time he saw a bush move in the wind he was on it. This has been about a year now and he's still around. Ole boy let him catch a little hog at 5 months old just because he knew Chief would do it and he was trying to show off. I didnt care for that too much.

[Mr.Billfold]

Thanks for the replies.

I have never equated DA with gameness.
As a mater of fact, like I said, I have noticed quite the opposite.
It seems like the really crazy DA ones didnt have the heart to keep up with all that mess if they had been hurt.

THis guy said that at 6 weeks, when he took them from their momma, that this one was already acting the fool.

It's wierd.
I treat my pups like pups, no question, and I woudl never start getting them ready for a hunt at th is age. I just could not believe this pup.

[Dred Lok Kennels]

How a pup acts means nothing he/she has the same chance as any other pup in that litter of working out as long as he/she isn't put in a situation where its confidence isn't tested to hard, there is alot more to this but this is the main point SIT ON THOSE PUPS PEPOLE.................

[miakoda]

Thanks for the replies.

I have never equated DA with gameness.
As a mater of fact, like I said, I have noticed quite the opposite.
It seems like the really crazy DA ones didnt have the heart to keep up with all that mess if they had been hurt.

THis guy said that at 6 weeks, when he took them from their momma, that this one was already acting the fool.

It's wierd.
I treat my pups like pups, no question, and I woudl never start getting them ready for a hunt at th is age. I just could not believe this pup.
I gotcha. :) It was late. ;)

But you are right. I too have noticed that many DA dogs tend to act only. It's all a show for most, and although many will attack another dog, it doesn't mean that they want what is to follow. And the same holds true for many dogs who put on a big threat display towards humans. When the human actually fights back, the dog hightails it out of dodge.

[14rock]

*Removed my own post*

[yellaman420]

DA is one thing that really gets on my nerves w/ these dogs. Sure, he looks good barkin and spitting, but come on. It impresses new folks, and scares civilians but really has nothing to do w/ the final dog. But I gotta second what Dred said, bottom line just let the pup be a pup. He/she is going to be a grown dog the rest of their life. Keep them fat, happy, socialized and medicated until then. That way youve got no question in your mind if youve done the right thing by your dog. His/her performance is up to them.

[masta of game]

i know this my sound foolish.
have u heard of anyone who breeds for gamness but desexes dogs with high DA.

[Bullyson]

That doesnt make any sense. i know this my sound foolish.
have u heard of anyone who breeds for gamness but desexes dogs with high DA.

[MASONDOGS]

I guess I don't see any correlation between dog aggression and gameness. A DA dog is just one that is dog reactive to another dog and would prefer to start a ruckus than play nice. This breed wasn't bred for DA. DA is just a resulting trait from breeding for the pit. DA is found amongst all bulldog breeds and all terrier breeds due to their working backgrounds.

Gameness is a whole different ballgame.

The most DA dog I've ever seen is a Fox Terrier that would literally bark, whine, & strain so hard to get at another dog that it would literally pass out. But does anyone think it would be a game dog?. My guess is not a chance.

As for how that pup goes, I don't care how early it may turn on, a pup is a pup is a pup. I might be in the minority, but I don't allow puppies to play big dog games.
I dont understand how you say that DA is a by product of breeding for the box...if it wasnt for DA they wouldnt be in the box to start with...gameness is the gas for a dog to scratch but DA is at the wheel...

[amari602]

Good question.... makes me wonder, I guess the best answer would come from statistics, would be nice if we could find out at what age some CH game dogs clicked on, lay it all out and see if these are dogs that tended to turn on earlier or later, seems like in most opions here a game dog doesn't turn on til a little later and the earlier bloomers lose it. I have a female, down from Chinaman, 14 months, as far as I know she's never been rolled although she was given to me at about 11mos so I don't know for sure, she makes a scene when she sees large dogs barking and pulling on her lead, but I can't say I think she'd do much if she could, I don't think she's really clicked on yet, so she probably doesn't help much in offering insight to this particular subject, I have an 8 wk old pup, he does not care for the other dogs and avoids them and growls if they come near, so time has yet to tell with him. I had a female years ago who was on from the time I got her at 8 weeks and would go full on if she had the chance, but by the time she was 1 1/2 she had no real drive behind her DA. The most game dog I had ever owned was about 8 years ago, as a pup he'd always yap annoyingly at larger dogs but even off his leash he'd keep his distance from them and never actually went into another dog, once when he was about 3 months he was yapping at our chihuahua, the chihuahua nipped my pup's butt and my pit pup took off yelping! I thought he'd surely grow up to be a cur, but at about a year he was on and stayed that way for as long as I had him, he was a good dog, but even if it were true that the "late bloomers" tend to be more game, I believe there will always be exceptions.

[mydawgs]

I dont understand how you say that DA is a by product of breeding for the box...if it wasnt for DA they wouldnt be in the box to start with...gameness is the gas for a dog to scratch but DA is at the wheel...
Your the second person I have heard say it is DA that takes them into the fight, but it's game that keeps them there....

Not sure myself I am just a student of the literature....

[miakoda]

I dont understand how you say that DA is a by product of breeding for the box...if it wasnt for DA they wouldnt be in the box to start with...gameness is the gas for a dog to scratch but DA is at the wheel...Then I guess you've never heard the old stories of some Ch. pit dogs that knew when it was time to get down to business but also when it wasn't. I've heard several stories of some dogs that were amazing in the pit, yet they got along with another dog or two when not working. (of course I realize that this isn't the norm persay, but it proves that a dog doesn't have to be an out of control maniac slobbering at the mouth to get at another dog to be a good contender).

I personally think that the better of the dogs knew the difference and enjoyed what they were doing. I don't think they just acted on DA instincts and hoped for the best. Most of the DA dogs I've seen would get their asses kicked if a fight ever really broke out.

Also, since all bulldog breeds and the vast majority of terrier breeds turn out DA dogs, how do you explain it since none of them were bred to fight other dogs?

[MASONDOGS]

a dog that scratches is a dog that is the aggresor...a dog wouldnt be in the box if he wasnt DA...cause he wouldnt scratch to begin with...thats all there is to it

[Pipbull]

This came up in another thread, but I've heard stories of Champs getting along with dogs outside an event. One Sorrell's dog in particular, I can't remember off the top of my head. Uncle Bud....does that sound right? Now sure if someone else would be able to verify that, I'm tired and my heads probably not on straight right now.

[koening]

APBT have to be GAME and DA . I quess they have to know when to fight and when not to . I think that is way they where schooled . To know that in the pit they have to fight , some just kept on going outside it as well :D . The breed is dog DA because of the way it was bred just as well as they are not HA for the same reason .

[masta of game]

i see....

it all makes sense to me now after reading the replies.. i always wanted to know if it was possible to have a game dog with no DA at all. to use for hunting.

like keep the gameness but breed out the DA.

but i guess it doesnt work like that. ow well.

[Titch_Pitbull]

Some APBTs make excellent hog dogs.

[masta of game]

yeah some are good, but not the best , i guess they were bred mainly for dog to dog combat .

im thinking of going hunting soon, it woud be my first time.

so yeah..just trying learn as much as i can.

" sorry for hijacking the thread "

[mydawgs]

i see....

it all makes sense to me now after reading the replies.. i always wanted to know if it was possible to have a game dog with no DA at all. to use for hunting.

like keep the gameness but breed out the DA.

but i guess it doesnt work like that. ow well.
Here is a question, is it really DA in the APBT or is it animal aggression???? For that matter is it animal aggression in most terrier breeds? Don't know just a question?

[Chef-Kergin]

i've typed this on here before; read it in a post from someone who's been in these dogs longer than i've been on god's green earth. easiest defenition for me to understand and process.

"gameness is when the will to dominate supersedes the desire to survive."

DA plays nothing in that.

like other members have stated, there have been sporting champions in the past, and i bet there's been some in recent history, that were as game as the day is long, but outside the box were passive with other four legged animals. i've heard about a sporting champion who after being retired would share his dog house with a little terrier when it was cold outside, jrt or rat terrier i believe.

they knew when to relax, but when it is time to get down, then happy birthday! they would scratch to the death in competition, that's what gameness is.

barking, snarling, wanting to get at everything on four legs, "puppy rage," none of these things have to do with it.

a dog engages in combat because he wants to. chances are you put an overly aggressive dog on the bottom for the first time, it'll change it's tune.

all of this is speaking in a historical context, and i'm still new to the breed, just my $0.02 from observation.

[MASONDOGS]

a dog has to be DA to fight...unless...he is fighting out of fear...everyone is cookie cutting this so that it seems DA can only be expressed one way(growling, lunging, so on and so forth) a dog that will do that and a dog that crosses the box to mouth an opponent are both showing forms of DA...

[Chef-Kergin]

a dog has to be DA to fight...unless...he is fighting out of fear...everyone is cookie cutting this so that it seems DA can only be expressed one way(growling, lunging, so on and so forth) a dog that will do that and a dog that crosses the box to mouth an opponent are both showing forms of DA...that could be seen as DA or dominancedepending on how one might think about it.

would you bet on one to cross and mouth a downed opponent (read: dead)?

we'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)

my logic processes the idea of "gameness" in a different way than yours. being young, i can only read books, articles, and historical things like that on-line, coupled with the opinions of those i respect to try and understand this idea more fully.

also, the internet makes it a little more difficult to hold a conversation where you try and pick apart what you're hearing and politely argue your point on any subject, hopefully gaining an understanding of another line of thought.

we just see things differently.

:D

[masta of game]

my logic processes the idea of "gameness" in a different way than yours. the way u said it, u reminded me of my digital class. hate that class lol...

"Logic" as in logic gates, " process" microprocessors .. lol.

dont worry, im a dreamer lol

[mydawgs]

the way u said it, u reminded me of my digital class. hate that class lol...

"Logic" as in logic gates, " process" microprocessors .. lol.

dont worry, im a dreamer lol
masta...

This is GOOD STUFF!!!!!!:D I LUV IT!!!!!

But if we are going to talk logic and process then I'm game. I think what I am hearing is the process of the fight could be broken down into an initial phase, the heart of the encounter and the decision to stay to the detriment of the animals well being. If you look at a human and often times I have read where game is compared to the undying courage of a soldier that refuses to quit then I ask what takes him/her into his encounter to display such courage. Now it certainly isn't DA (apples and oranges) but perhaps it is a fleeting moment of fear, or blind rage or something else that propels a man/woman into such a treacherous experience. Think about it, what makes a human throw himself on top of an explosive device to save his comrades? At that split moment is it undying courage? Not sure, could be..but wow that is an awful mighty load for a human brain to process I would think. Perhaps it was something like DA in the hystoric matchs that lit the fuse to GET to the place where the "game" got ignited and then depending on the strength of the "flame" kept the dog there, and at the end it became sheer will.

If you look at a human encounter in a split second a man/woman charges into peril, the courage takes over to accomplish the deed and then is it the instinct to survive that pulls them out???

Don't know but interesting to theorize!!!!

[Dred Lok Kennels]

also, the internet makes it a little more difficult to hold a conversation where you try and pick apart what you're hearing and politely argue your point on any subject, hopefully gaining an understanding of another line of thought.

Love the way you put this, mind if I use it sometimes:D ?

[Chef-Kergin]

also, the internet makes it a little more difficult to hold a conversation where you try and pick apart what you're hearing and politely argue your point on any subject, hopefully gaining an understanding of another line of thought.

Love the way you put this, mind if I use it sometimes:D ?have away at it.

:D

[Rocky H. Balboa]

:eek: lol, you guys are a trip some times. :D

Yeah, get rid of those early starters. Send them my way...lmao.

While I do agree in that early starters do not necessarily end as superb finishers, they might grow up to do well. IMHO, dog aggression is necessary for a dog to "go" but you need gameness to make him stay and finish the job. The danger is in ruining the dog by placing too much stress (too soon). While the pup may want to go, you have to say "not so fast little buddy". Find ways to channel that energy into things that will exercise that drive while improving your bond.