Truth Or Myth

[coco0889]

I was on another board and there was a member saying that the APBT doesn't have terrier blood in it. He said that the old dogmen were breeding solely for gameness and would have never mixed a non game terrier blood with it. Does this have any truth to it or is it just made up BS?

[BoiBoi]

no sir this is false, there are some pure bred working terriers out there that would be dead game if they were allowed, the patterdale for example. I believe the terrier was mixed in to give the tenacity and the gameness and the bulldog was used for the strength and probably gameness aswell

[Bullyson]

I agree B. Couldnt have said it better myself. :D no sir this is false, there are some pure bred working terriers out there that would be dead game if they were allowed, the patterdale for example. I believe the terrier was mixed in to give the tenacity and the gameness and the bulldog was used for the strength and probably gameness aswell

[reddog]

Most WORKING terriers do have a high percentage of dead game dogs.Way more than our bulldogs of today.

[woody d]

it seems here in iowa every farm has a single rat terrier, and thats all youll see for dogs. occasionally a blue heeler, but the little rat terriers ive been around are not very acceptable of new dogs

[SPFDOGS]

Most WORKING terriers do have a high percentage of dead game dogs.Way more than our bulldogs of today.I will have to disagree with this post..What is your defenition of DG?..I know people that say a Patterdale will go and get a coon or whatever and hang tough when it gets tough but DG?..Lets say he gets hit on the muzzle by his quarry and catches a bleeder,and bleeds to death..Is this DG?..HOW can a dog that attacks and kills(?) varmin be catogorized with a dog that will continue engaging his advasary even with broken limbs,and going into shock?..As for the percentages..I dont think any brred of dog produces anywhere near a high percentage of game dogs,let alone DG dogs,but the APBT is light years ahead of any other breed of dog..(I read somwhere that gamebirds throw a high percentage of gameness into their offspring)..

This isnt meant to start an arguement or anything,and I respect most peoples opinion,but I think this statment has no merit..

[misterdogman]

I will have to disagree with this post..What is your defenition of DG?..I know people that say a Patterdale will go and get a coon or whatever and hang tough when it gets tough but DG?..Lets say he gets hit on the muzzle by his quarry and catches a bleeder,and bleeds to death..Is this DG?..HOW can a dog that attacks and kills(?) varmin be catogorized with a dog that will continue engaging his advasary even with broken limbs,and going into shock?..As for the percentages..I dont think any brred of dog produces anywhere near a high percentage of game dogs,let alone DG dogs,but the APBT is light years ahead of any other breed of dog..(I read somwhere that gamebirds throw a high percentage of gameness into their offspring)..

This isnt meant to start an arguement or anything,and I respect most peoples opinion,but I think this statment has no merit..I have personally seen patterdales that were from old bobcat hunting lines in Kansas that were more game in my opinion than any APBT I have ever seen. These little bastards would be let loose with some Jack Russles with good noses to work a cat down... and pin it somehwere but Jacks wont fight readily after they scent a big cat out.... then theyd let the Patterdales come in instead, and these paricular guys had a couple APBTs that were game ...that also went along before they owned patterdales... the patterdales would need to be on a cat about 7 to 1 and then the 2 big 60lb plus APBTs would come in and dispatch the cat fast ....sometimes,
these guys said if it was just the 2 APBTs alone that a 35lb cat would lay on its back and gut the dogs in 2 seconds a piece because the dog would just try to go into its guts and then it meet claws instead.... but when there is 7 25lb Patterdales on it too they git er done ....as long as you didnt let the patterdales and GameDogs get together theyd fight too....the next day the APBTs were happy to lay around and lick woulds if they had em,,, but those patterdales could be little swollen cut up puss balls and be wiggling at the kennel doors ready to go again....they can indeed be some very game little bastards and I would say possibly even DG ...but not DG with other dogs so much it seems...its weird... its like the patterdales were DG for other animals... and the pack instinct APBTS dont have were left in and preserved in the patterdales.... but if one of those APBTs grabbed one they didnt have the drive they had on a cat and didnt fight back for long I was told with another dog. These guys also said most of the time if you crossed a good game Patterdale and good game APBT you got garbage. just a wierd looking cross without much more than pet qualities. Explain that one? I have always thought about those weird DNA/ Genetic reasons why some crosses that look good from what you see with your own eyes in performance...but genetically the dont work in the real world and what you could imagine from what you put in genetically dont come out like that. In my head i could imagine the cross making a superb hunting dog for many types of game but I guess it isnt the case.

[14rock]

I was on another board and there was a member saying that the APBT doesn't have terrier blood in itNo one knows anymore. It was hundreds of years ago, and breedings at that time were more often than not, kept secret.

I read somwhere that gamebirds throw a high percentage of gameness into their offspring
In certain lines of gamefowl, if you breed 100 birds, you can almost expect 99 of them to be dead game.

[frenchie1936]

it seems here in iowa every farm has a single rat terrier, and thats all youll see for dogs. occasionally a blue heeler, but the little rat terriers ive been around are not very acceptable of new dogs

i grew up outside of des moines in a small town called adel. and i tell you what, damn near every farm i ever went to had at least one form of working dog be it a terrier or hound of some sort. there was one guy that was breeding wonderful American Bulldogs and he sold them mostly to farmers too. but for the original question, if you have to ask other people if the APBTerrier has terrier in it, find a different breed please. seriously. i'm not trying to be rude and who knows, maybe you don't have any. but if you do and you belong to any kind of informational site and you are asking that question, don't expect have your a$$ pampered as most people would likely just laugh at you. we all started somewhere, but your question falls into the realm of stupidity since you obviously haven't even bothered to call these dogs what they are: American Pit Bull Terriers. this gets old after a while.....

[willypete]

I will have to disagree with this post..What is your defenition of DG?..I know people that say a Patterdale will go and get a coon or whatever and hang tough when it gets tough but DG?..Lets say he gets hit on the muzzle by his quarry and catches a bleeder,and bleeds to death..Is this DG?..HOW can a dog that attacks and kills(?) varmin be catogorized with a dog that will continue engaging his advasary even with broken limbs,and going into shock?..As for the percentages..I dont think any brred of dog produces anywhere near a high percentage of game dogs,let alone DG dogs,but the APBT is light years ahead of any other breed of dog..(I read somwhere that gamebirds throw a high percentage of gameness into their offspring)..

This isnt meant to start an arguement or anything,and I respect most peoples opinion,but I think this statment has no merit..
i have seen a patterdale work with its nose chewed off and love every last bit of it.. no arueing here its just i dont think you have seen enough terriers work to make that call..but i could be wrong .. i have said it before and ill say it again i have seen the roosters fight a lot and them things aint no were near GAME . The handelers pull there heads blow up there asses and plopp them down on the ground trying to get them to work ..and hell most of them will run from a duck no shit thats the truth..i seen more than once .

[reddog]

Would you call a race horse that runs until he dies dead game?Would you call a pidgon that flys hundreds of miles and drops out of the sky dead game?The definition of dead game is anything that will willingly lay down its life doing what they were breed to do.The gameness gene is the easyest to loose.You need to open your eyes and read a few of these posts about people breeding 8 month old puppys?How game are they?Theres thousands of puppy peddlers out there.The folks who breed real hunting terriers only breed there best cause why?They keep some of there pups and raise them.How many of these puppy peddlers do that.Your so brainwashed that the pit bull has a lock on gameness.Thats not a knock on you personaly thats just what most pit bull owners think.How much do you know about a true hunting terrier?Did you know out west they hunt mountian lions with 25 pound dogs?They hunt bear boar badgers you name it.If thats not game whats your defintion?

[SPFDOGS]

Willypete...You are correct in your assumption that I have not seen many working terriers and it was probably a little ignorant of me to say ANYTHING about hunting terriers/farm dogs as I have no expierience with either,but I have seen more than a few bulldogs work their trade and to say that a dog is game without REALLY proving it is purley wishful thinking..

Reddog..Would I consider a horse that ran to death DG,or a pigeon that flew himself to death DG?..I dont know..If a cattle dog got kicked in the face `by a steer and died would he be DG?..If a Labradoodle drown while fetching fallen fowl,would he be DG?..The word "game" and "DG" have a different meaning to dogmen like myself and dont get thrown around to loosley..Witnessing a dog that will take a lickin' and keep on tickin' is something to behold as there really arent "that many" around that can REALLY be considered game let alone DG..

Misterdogman..You may have seen patterdales that were gamer than any APBT you ever saw,but in my opinion that just means you havent seen a good game bulldog..No disrespect intended..I have seen more than a few bulldogs sharpen their skills,and can honestly say I have only seen one example(in person) of a dog that I would consider DG..

These are just my opinions,and are not meant to disrespect anyone..

[misterdogman]

Willypete...You are correct in your assumption that I have not seen many working terriers and it was probably a little ignorant of me to say ANYTHING about hunting terriers/farm dogs as I have no expierience with either,but I have seen more than a few bulldogs work their trade and to say that a dog is game without REALLY proving it is purley wishful thinking..

Reddog..Would I consider a horse that ran to death DG,or a pigeon that flew himself to death DG?..I dont know..If a cattle dog got kicked in the face `by a steer and died would he be DG?..If a Labradoodle drown while fetching fallen fowl,would he be DG?..The word "game" and "DG" have a different meaning to dogmen like myself and dont get thrown around to loosley..Witnessing a dog that will take a lickin' and keep on tickin' is something to behold as there really arent "that many" around that can REALLY be considered game let alone DG..

Misterdogman..You may have seen patterdales that were gamer than any APBT you ever saw,but in my opinion that just means you havent seen a good game bulldog..No disrespect intended..I have seen more than a few bulldogs sharpen their skills,and can honestly say I have only seen one example(in person) of a dog that I would consider DG..

These are just my opinions,and are not meant to disrespect anyone..Saying I havent seen a game bull dog is saying several game dogs owned by members here arent game and there are several here I have seen in person and many game dogs period I have seen around the world. You must understand what I am saying though before assuming. Refer to my statement about what happens if a APBT grabs a Patterdale....but when it comes to a cat or something its different. Gameness is a definition regarding unwillingness to quit...not just against another dog but any prey aquired and when it comes to the statement I made Ill stand by it. HAve you ever even seen a patterdale go on anything or been around any?

[SPFDOGS]

Saying I havent seen a game bull dog is saying several game dogs owned by members here arent game and there are several here I have seen in person and many game dogs period I have seen around the world. You must understand what I am saying though before assuming. Refer to my statement about what happens if a APBT grabs a Patterdale....but when it comes to a cat or something its different. Gameness is a definition regarding unwillingness to quit...not just against another dog but any prey aquired and when it comes to the statement I made Ill stand by it. HAve you ever even seen a patterdale go on anything or been around any?No sir..YOU are saying that none of the members on this board that you know have dogs gamer (in your opinion) than a patterdale...Re read your first sentence in your previous post..

You say that you have seen many gamedogs from around the world,yet a patterdale is the gamest dog you ever saw?..You must be socializing with the wrong crowd dude..Seriously,if you made that statment in front of any seasoned dogman you would be brushed off as a newbie (not saying you are)..

You seem to somehow equate hunting with the game..Someone told you that if 2 60lb APBT's caught a cat (bobcat?) that the cat would lay on its back and gut them..This is laughable..When have you ever seen a stressed cat lay on its back and wait to gut its opponent?..lol..And the claws would deter a dog from going into his guts?..lol..Now I see why you say what you say about patteredales being gamer than the APBT's youve seen..It would take about 2 seconds for a good bulldog(not 2 of them) to grab,shake,and kill a bobcat..Cats go into shock very easily..Whomever gave you this info also must have not seen any good game bulldogs..
In my opinion as well as MANY other there is only one way to determine if you have a GAME dog...and its not by hunting cats!

[Mr Mark]

Woulds like to delete my response, but I can't!

[14rock]

i have said it before and ill say it again i have seen the roosters fight a lot and them things aint no were near GAME . The handelers pull there heads blow up there asses and plopp them down on the ground trying to get them to work ..and hell most of them will run from a duck no shit thats the truth..i seen more than once .Yes, they will run from a duck. They've been bred to fight chickens, not ducks :p Most APBT's are curs as well, because many refuse to fight a human in a fight?

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd realize they blow on their "asses" to cool the bird down. That's it. And for your information, many handlers of DOGS will blow on their dogs asses, to try to help curb the internal temperature skyrocketing to the point of nervous failure. Maybe you thought they were filling up the "game balloon" back there, so they are propelled to scratch?

I've seen birds get cut in the chest first fly, guts hanging onto the carpet, and their handler pick them back up and stuff them inside. Set them on the carpet, and they GO without hesitation. That is GAME, only an idiot would argue such a thing!

[reddog]

So spf you said if he made that statement in front of any seasoned dogman he would be brushed off.Are you saying your ''not a seasoned dog man''?Boy you sure sound like one to me.WOW you've seen a game dog go and everything.And all that good info on whats a game animal and whats not,man you gotta be an old timer.Your my hero dude!

[Iron Mike]

There is over 150 years of pedigree documentation of the breed of APBT and no one can specifically say what breed of Terrier was used!

Also hunting bred terrier doesn't make it game bred dog fighting breed!!

AND IF there was terrier use in any particular breed of dog, that help make up the APBT, doesn't mean ALL the other breeds, which was also used in the foundation breeding of the APBT, also had terrier in them...

http://ironlinekennels.com/NorrodBillboard/viewtopic.php?t=295

[Iron Mike]

BTW you don't cool a Pit Dog down the same way you cool a Game Cock down.
The dog man and the cocker handles their animals differently.

Pit Dog you cool down first, depending on who's turn it is to scratch, if it isn't your turn then you wipe out the mouth, then to cool the dog down the sponge or rag you can either put it on their balls, neck/throat area so the air is cooled when it breaths, or under the spine area in the chest or at the base of the neck by the shoulder area where one of the main part of the central nervous system is.
And the last thing to do is make sure to ring out all the water on the area of which the other dog is working. This is to make it slippery and for the other dog to swallow blood, water and hair hoping later on it will make the other dog noxious.

[SPFDOGS]

So spf you said if he made that statement in front of any seasoned dogman he would be brushed off.Are you saying your ''not a seasoned dog man''?Boy you sure sound like one to me.WOW you've seen a game dog go and everything.And all that good info on whats a game animal and whats not,man you gotta be an old timer.Your my hero dude!
I can see where this is going...I do not intent to get into a message board war with you or anyone one else so let that be known..

What Im saying is if he or you,or anyone else for that matter went to where I go to "see whats up" and said that this patterdale,or this jag or this whatever was the gamest dog I ever saw they would laugh at you..And if you said that patterdales have a higher percentage of game and DG dogs than bulldogs you would NEVER hear the end of it..
As for your sarcasm I have had "bulldogs" for close to 10yrs and have owned individuals from the breed for over 15yrs..So no, Im not a oldtimer and probably wouldnt be considered "seasoned" by a oldtimer either but Ive put some time in..Im glad you have someone to look up to now..Happy Holidays

[SPFDOGS]

I also want it to be known that I am NOT putting down working terriers..I admire those little dogs for their tenacity and prey drive..

[Iron Mike]

OHHHHHHHHHH I'll say it!
Any one who truly thinks a Patterdale or a Jack Russell is gamer then a Pit Dog is more full of crap then a Christmas Turkey!

The animal they hunt only fights back against these dogs for survival.
A Pit Dog fights for dominance!

[misterdogman]

No sir..YOU are saying that none of the members on this board that you know have dogs gamer (in your opinion) than a patterdale...Re read your first sentence in your previous post..

You say that you have seen many gamedogs from around the world,yet a patterdale is the gamest dog you ever saw?..You must be socializing with the wrong crowd dude..Seriously,if you made that statment in front of any seasoned dogman you would be brushed off as a newbie (not saying you are)..

You seem to somehow equate hunting with the game..Someone told you that if 2 60lb APBT's caught a cat (bobcat?) that the cat would lay on its back and gut them..This is laughable..When have you ever seen a stressed cat lay on its back and wait to gut its opponent?..lol..And the claws would deter a dog from going into his guts?..lol..Now I see why you say what you say about patteredales being gamer than the APBT's youve seen..It would take about 2 seconds for a good bulldog(not 2 of them) to grab,shake,and kill a bobcat..Cats go into shock very easily..Whomever gave you this info also must have not seen any good game bulldogs..
In my opinion as well as MANY other there is only one way to determine if you have a GAME dog...and its not by hunting cats!It was the way YOU worded it, by the statement I made there is no way I am saying any or some of the APBTs I have seen are not game, Ill tell you when I think one is not game, but first off you need to study your big cats bro, I know what a cat can do to a dog I have seen it, from bobcats to mountain lions so I dont need a crash course of when and how a cat goes into shock or what a dog will do to it...Gameness is not in terms of only one dog on another dog or just 1 certain animal, it is definable to any prey a dog has been trianed and bred to hunt, like I said compared to another dog a Patterdale is shit but when theyre on their favorite prey the gameness they exhibit is par exellence and second to none, just because theyre not like that on another dog does not mean they are not GAME...really before you decide who would brush me off or consider me anything from what I say understand I am talking about...I am referring to gameness in the dogs paticular element not compared to each other...thats a stupid comparison... and when you make certain comments about this or that or what would happen or what I have seen in dogs... it really shows me you probaly have never seen a dog hunt or get involved in something with a big cat or feral hog or anything big enough to fight back like even another dog because it doesnt alway just boom whap TA-DA go the bulldogs way everytime, I am sure there is some members here who have lost a game dog to a big cat or big male hog or something, just because its a game dog dont guarantee victory....and just because I am educated to compare the definition of gameness between 2 breeds of game dog does not mean I have not seen good game APBTs I can just see differences in gameness among what the breed was bred for and to me its different....

[willypete]

OHHHHHHHHHH I'll say it!
Any one who truly thinks a Patterdale or a Jack Russell is gamer then a Pit Dog is more full of crap then a Christmas Turkey!

The animal they hunt only fights back against these dogs for survival.
A Pit Dog fights for dominance!
The APBT is hands down the ultimate dog with no close runners to catch up ..
But pit dogs dont fight for dominance rotts do as a matter of fact all dogs will fight for dominance a pit dog will fight for the love of the fight .If they did fight for dominance there would be no finish in them..

[simms]

The APBT is hands down the ultimate dog with no close runners to catch up ..
But pit dogs dont fight for dominance rotts do as a matter of fact all dogs will fight for dominance a pit dog will fight for the love of the fight .If they did fight for dominance there would be no finish in them..Well said!

[Triple_S]

Very well said, i couldnt have said it better.

[Highbloodbulldog]

I was on another board and there was a member saying that the APBT doesn't have terrier blood in it. He said that the old dogmen were breeding solely for gameness and would have never mixed a non game terrier blood with it. Does this have any truth to it or is it just made up BS?
No way to know... maybe some dogs were bred and other not, then they were bred again and again with pure or not pure ones... there's just no way to know... I do believe that IF the American Pit Bull (real ones please) have blood of terriers, it is less than 50%... no Pit Dog are even closer to a temperament of a Terrier (and i'm talking about "traditional stuff")... I don't care if the dogs hang its teeth to another one, this a rottweiller can do too...

Greetings and happy new year.

[Iron Mike]

The APBT is hands down the ultimate dog with no close runners to catch up ..
But pit dogs dont fight for dominance rotts do as a matter of fact all dogs will fight for dominance a pit dog will fight for the love of the fight .If they did fight for dominance there would be no finish in them..
LOL ya right! LMAO
Throw one in with a Pit Dog and see if it fights to dominate or will be fighting for survival. ROTFL.

Pit Dogs don't fight because of the love of it, they fight because it is instinctive.

BTW VERY few dogs are finishers.
Only a fool would bet on one scratching on a down or dead dog...

[simms]

LOL ya right! LMAO
Throw one in with a Pit Dog and see if it fights to dominate or will be fighting for survival. ROTFL.

Pit Dogs don't fight because of the love of it, they fight because it is instinctive.

BTW VERY few dogs are finishers.
Only a fool would bet on one scratching on a down or dead dog...IM you have been around a long damn time, you are a funny guy.

[SPFDOGS]

It was the way YOU worded it, by the statement I made there is no way I am saying any or some of the APBTs I have seen are not game, Ill tell you when I think one is not game, but first off you need to study your big cats bro, I know what a cat can do to a dog I have seen it, from bobcats to mountain lions so I dont need a crash course of when and how a cat goes into shock or what a dog will do to it...Gameness is not in terms of only one dog on another dog or just 1 certain animal, it is definable to any prey a dog has been trianed and bred to hunt, like I said compared to another dog a Patterdale is shit but when theyre on their favorite prey the gameness they exhibit is par exellence and second to none, just because theyre not like that on another dog does not mean they are not GAME...really before you decide who would brush me off or consider me anything from what I say understand I am talking about...I am referring to gameness in the dogs paticular element not compared to each other...thats a stupid comparison... and when you make certain comments about this or that or what would happen or what I have seen in dogs... it really shows me you probaly have never seen a dog hunt or get involved in something with a big cat or feral hog or anything big enough to fight back like even another dog because it doesnt alway just boom whap TA-DA go the bulldogs way everytime, I am sure there is some members here who have lost a game dog to a big cat or big male hog or something, just because its a game dog dont guarantee victory....and just because I am educated to compare the definition of gameness between 2 breeds of game dog does not mean I have not seen good game APBTs I can just see differences in gameness among what the breed was bred for and to me its different....
" I have personally seen patterdales from old bobcat hunting lines in kansas that were more game in my opinion than any APBT I have ever seen."

My good man these are your words..How did I word it any different from what YOU typed?.
Secondly I feel no need to study up any more than I already have on the feline species..I have always been a fan of big cats and have watched many a documentary on all of the different varieties so I know how they hunt and kill their prey..
You also have a very different interpitation of the word gameness than I do..What you call gameness I call prey drive..To each his own I guess..

As I stated early I dont have any hands on expirience with working terriers or hunting dogs but I have seen footage of a few different boar hunts and I was not that impressed..EVERY catch dog that I saw would catch a ear and hang on..EVERY trail dog that I saw would circle menacingly,and sometimes dart in and snip but thats about it..That does not impress me in the least bit as far as gameness goes..People are risking their lives as well as their dogs life so I do have respect for those that participate in such activities, I just dont think that it tests a dogs gameness..

[PirbulBongo]

Well, i think APBT and working terriers play on different leagues. We all know how game a bulldog can be but there are underground hunting and terriers are masters that never quit, can and will face stronger opponents and keep going on.

About original post, i can see some benefits from terrier blood on old bulldogs but not on the 50/50 formula most think and not from all the strains that came to america, but we'll never know.

[realonebulldog]

I was on another board and there was a member saying that the APBT doesn't have terrier blood in it. He said that the old dogmen were breeding solely for gameness and would have never mixed a non game terrier blood with it. Does this have any truth to it or is it just made up BS?Well.....everyone who knows this kind of dogs REALLY.....
calls them Bulldogs. I think that tells us something.
Another point is you get never wire-hairy dogs from a real Bulldogline but the real old game-Terriers were all wire-hairy.....something to think about...

I think if Bulldogs have some terrierblood than MAYBE up to 6-8 %....

The funny thing is that all Terriers have a good dash Bulldogblood.....thatswhy you have short-hairy terriers with a fine muscle-tone...

[Breogan]

i grew up outside of des moines in a small town called adel. and i tell you what, damn near every farm i ever went to had at least one form of working dog be it a terrier or hound of some sort. there was one guy that was breeding wonderful American Bulldogs and he sold them mostly to farmers too. but for the original question, if you have to ask other people if the APBTerrier has terrier in it, find a different breed please. seriously. i'm not trying to be rude and who knows, maybe you don't have any. but if you do and you belong to any kind of informational site and you are asking that question, don't expect have your a$$ pampered as most people would likely just laugh at you. we all started somewhere, but your question falls into the realm of stupidity since you obviously haven't even bothered to call these dogs what they are: American Pit Bull Terriers. this gets old after a while.....
Not arguing with your post just wanted to say that many dogs are mislabeled. The Doberman Pinscher for example is no terrier at all yet it's name would suggest that. Pinscher meaning terrier in German.

[Breogan]

OHHHHHHHHHH I'll say it!
Any one who truly thinks a Patterdale or a Jack Russell is gamer then a Pit Dog is more full of crap then a Christmas Turkey!

The animal they hunt only fights back against these dogs for survival.
A Pit Dog fights for dominance!
I'm glad someone brought this up. It's real different for a dog to go after an animal who's only thought is survival. Sure that animal will fight if it has to, but it's very different when that dogs starts to see that his opponent wants the fight as much as they do and is gonna keep coming right at em. That's when gameness comes out.

[Breogan]

And Just because an animal is game doesn't mean it's dead game. Just because it's dead doesn't make it dead game. This term gets thrown around too much.

[jr Pit Guy]

Well Fancier, we cross paths again.....


LOL ya right! LMAO
Throw one in with a Pit Dog and see if it fights to dominate or will be fighting for survival. ROTFL.
I agree with this part, but...

Pit Dogs don't fight because of the love of it, they fight because it is instinctive.
What?! Ever noticed that wagging tail? That's pure enjoyment.

BTW VERY few dogs are finishers.
Only a fool would bet on one scratching on a down or dead dog...
True...

YIS
Rago:p

[willypete]

LOL ya right! LMAO
Throw one in with a Pit Dog and see if it fights to dominate or will be fighting for survival. ROTFL.

Pit Dogs don't fight because of the love of it, they fight because it is instinctive.

BTW VERY few dogs are finishers.
Only a fool would bet on one scratching on a down or dead dog...
LOL YOU DONT KNOW SHIT HAHAHAHA

[Big Rod]

LOL YOU DONT KNOW SHIT HAHAHAHA

Do you know who IM is? Do you know what the initials stands for..? Do you know how long he has been around...? Do you know who you just insulted....? :rolleyes: You obviously "DONT KNOW SHIT"

[Marty]

Lol............................ :D

[misterdogman]

OHHHHHHHHHH I'll say it!
Any one who truly thinks a Patterdale or a Jack Russell is gamer then a Pit Dog is more full of crap then a Christmas Turkey!

The animal they hunt only fights back against these dogs for survival.
A Pit Dog fights for dominance!See if I really sit down and ask myself this question I get caught up on the fact that you just stated, comparing gameness to dogs that fight dogs and dogs that fight cats or bears or whatever is hard, but I guarantee to you the animal they are fighting dont always just fight for survival, some cats and bears really aint that scared and dont worry too much. But the more I think about it the more I think about the words involved, like lets use this scenario. I always defined Patts or Karelians or whatever from the "prey" they hunt as game or not when theyre in action but lets assk this if a dog "proved" game on a bear or cat or whatever but quit in a fight with another dog and turned tail or stood teh line it couldnt be called game period right? So if the same Patterdales I seen that would go till they died on a bobcat but would not fight back for more than a few minutes even with a APBT their size can what tehy exibit even be called game or is it really just a part of their brain thats been programmed? Trust me I have seen game bulldogs a plenty but the more I think about it is the more I think maybe I overlooked something because I never have seen a game dog choose when and when not to be game nomatter what theyre fighting....food for thought and I been thinking about this a lot the past couple days...because after all gameness and prey drive have to be linked somewhere genetically so its mind boggling...

[simms]

Do you know who IM is? Do you know what the initials stands for..? Do you know how long he has been around...? Do you know who you just insulted....? :rolleyes: You obviously "DONT KNOW SHIT" C'mon now this is getting funny..... IF IM can dish it he can take it. IM has been around along time this aint his first rodeo....LOL

[Bullyson]

"In the early 1800's, some Bulldog breeders tried something new, hoping to breed faster, fiercer fighters. They bred the most formidable baiting and fighting Bulldogs with the toughest, quickest and bravest Terriers. This Cross was believed to enhance the fighting ability of the Bulldog by reducing his size while maintaining his strength and increasing his speed and agility. Although some historians say the smooth-coated Black-and-Tan and the White English Terrier (now extinct) were most frequently crossed with Bulldogs, others say the terriers were chosen only on the basis of gameness and working ability, and that a variety of terrier-like dogs were used. The result of these crosses was called the Bull-and-Terrier or the Half-and-Half. As time passed and Bull-and-Terriers were selectively bred, they became recognizable as an emerging breed.
An early Bull-and-Terrier named "Trusty" was so famous in England that an article and picture of him appeared in an 1806 edition of The Sporting Magazine. The picture is the first one known of a Bull-and-Terrier cross. Trusty was "as renowned for his battles as Bonaparte," according to the article and "fought 104 battles and was never beat." Raised by a prizefighter and later owned by a succession of boxers, Trusty was eventually purchased by Lord Camelford and came to be known as Lord Camelford's dog. Later, his Lordship changed the dogs name to "Belcher" and presented him to "Fighting Jim Belcher", boxing champion of England. His Lordship explained that " the only unconquered man was the only fit master for the only unconquered dog."

[reddog]

Hey DJ that cant be true cause accorting to this bunch of ''wanna be's''theres no such thing as a game terrier.Buy the way STP that was the term back in my day.newbe where the hell did that come from?And by the way I did put that question to real dog men,about working terriers having a much higher percentige of dead game pups and all agreed execpt Kenny Allen,but after a long talk and a little research he agreed.I understand his son is/was big into working jack russels.You young fellows might be the futeure and thats scary but get your head out of your asses.Stop talking about "stuff".Do your braggen with your dogs not your frigen computer!You know I dont know why I checked this out maybe find some of the old timers?But most are just wanna be's.

[misterdogman]

LOOK Im trying to have a serious discussion here with some people who know a thing or 2 about dogs and are man enough to agree and or disagree without disrespecting where one dogman or another has been...this thread is interfering with me being serious which dont happen to often so if your not on the current topic and or pointing relevent information about the truth myth or gameness of APBTs then shut the fuck up and go to another thread because I dont wanna read your drama between good posts.

[castle]

I dont doubt there was bulldog and terrier crosses in the early days ,the way an old hand said it to me was when they crossed the bulldog and the terrier and when selecting the pups they would have chosen the pups who more resembled the bulldog rather than the terrier for the pit so we would have had pitdogs with a dash of terrier blood being use in the pit and if they win then bred from for the pit
Aslo the pups who resembled the terriers would have had a dash of bulldog blood and probably be used as terriers and bred back to the terriers
What the old hand said as an example which is logical to me take the breeding of lurchers for running down prey you cross a collie with a greyhound to get a lurcher ,when you get the pups you pick the pups that more closely resemble the greyhound to use

[SPFDOGS]

Hey DJ that cant be true cause accorting to this bunch of ''wanna be's''theres no such thing as a game terrier.Buy the way STP that was the term back in my day.newbe where the hell did that come from?And by the way I did put that question to real dog men,about working terriers having a much higher percentige of dead game pups and all agreed execpt Kenny Allen,but after a long talk and a little research he agreed.I understand his son is/was big into working jack russels.You young fellows might be the futeure and thats scary but get your head out of your asses.Stop talking about "stuff".Do your braggen with your dogs not your frigen computer!You know I dont know why I checked this out maybe find some of the old timers?But most are just wanna be's.Assuming this is aimed at me considering Im the only one you seem to have a quarrel with..
"By the way STP was the term back in the day"..What is this suppose to mean?.If you are trying to insinuate that you used to hang out with these gentelmen I am not far at all from where they used to be,so if you REALLY have a problem with me you can PM me and we can talk..

"And by the way I did put that question to real dogmen about working terriers having a much higher percentage of DG pups and all agreed except for KA,but after a long talk and a little reshearch he agreed.." I dont think you are being truthful..Nothing more to it..

"You young fellows might be the future and thats scary but get your head out of your ass..Stop talking about all this stuff..Do your bragging with your dogs and not on your friggin' computer.." I dont know what this si suppose to mean..What stuff have I been talking about?..When have you heard me brag?.You dont even make sense dude,and all that wannabe stuff would go right out the window fast if we were face to face..

I think someone already mentioned that there is documented reports of bulldogs being in this country in there present form dating back as far as the 1850's..In my opinion anything before that really doesnt matter..

[Red Cocaine]

Is this a question that really matters? No... Is there any ONE right or wrong answer? No... We can theorize all day long and still it changes nothing... I think you’re all right some strands of pit dogs being half and half and some stands being pure Bulldog... What IS TRUTH is that each strand bred best to the best they could find no matter what the combo because in the end that’s ALL that mattered to get the Job done.. So regardless of if we have Bull-Terriers or Bull-Dogs they are non the less Sporting Dogs, Pit Dogs, Game Dogs Fighting Dogs and Working Dogs.... WHAT IS IMPORTANT is that it is up to US to Preserve This Dog whatever the name it holds and ancestry behind it.... Papers change people lie But what cannot be altered is the truth of what really is. Best to Best from the Best to Get the Best.

[14rock]

BTW you don't cool a Pit Dog down the same way you cool a Game Cock down.
The dog man and the cocker handles their animals differently.

Pit Dog you cool down first, depending on who's turn it is to scratch, if it isn't your turn then you wipe out the mouth, then to cool the dog down the sponge or rag you can either put it on their balls, neck/throat area so the air is cooled when it breaths, or under the spine area in the chest or at the base of the neck by the shoulder area where one of the main part of the central nervous system is.
And the last thing to do is make sure to ring out all the water on the area of which the other dog is working. This is to make it slippery and for the other dog to swallow blood, water and hair hoping later on it will make the other dog noxious.IM, there is no part of this incorrect. The most important part is " The dog man and the cocker handles their animals differently" for I was not referring to during the handle, when you have the time/tools to utilize better methods. Instead, during the other 90% of the fight, when you cannot put a hand/sponge on a dog, and are reduced to blowing/fanning/whatever to circulate the air over the most critical areas. For some dogmen, this includes blowing/fanning the dogs rectum to cool his internal temperature.

[misterdogman]

IM, there is no part of this incorrect. The most important part is " The dog man and the cocker handles their animals differently" for I was not referring to during the handle, when you have the time/tools to utilize better methods. Instead, during the other 90% of the fight, when you cannot put a hand/sponge on a dog, and are reduced to blowing/fanning/whatever to circulate the air over the most critical areas. For some dogmen, this includes blowing/fanning the dogs rectum to cool his internal temperature. I seen men do that and other men flip out on them real quick, one time I saw a guy wearing a normal ball cap take it off and start using it as a fan on his tired and down dog.... and when someone called him on it he said "I came in with it on from the beginning with no complaints so its part of me and my corner and I can use it in any manner I please"...it caused quite a commotion among the crowd especially when the judge ended up agreeing with him on the matter and they continued without stopping. His action did not help him avail though and I think the judge saw it wouldnt in the first place when he made the decision he did.

[14rock]

Rules dictate you may have a fan. Other side should familiarize themselves with them before complaining. LOL

[Iron Mike]

And Just because an animal is game doesn't mean it's dead game. Just because it's dead doesn't make it dead game. This term gets thrown around too much.
Only dead game dogs are the ones who chooses to take their death because their instinctive drive is so great the animal has no concept of quiting.

When I was a kid, Bob Hemphill told me 9 out 10 dogs quit because of conditioning.

So like most, I figured the key was in being the best conditioner.
This isn't what he meant, he meant you're lucky if one out of ten are dead game that are showed.

[Iron Mike]

IM, there is no part of this incorrect. The most important part is " The dog man and the cocker handles their animals differently" for I was not referring to during the handle, when you have the time/tools to utilize better methods. Instead, during the other 90% of the fight, when you cannot put a hand/sponge on a dog, and are reduced to blowing/fanning/whatever to circulate the air over the most critical areas. For some dogmen, this includes blowing/fanning the dogs rectum to cool his internal temperature.The reason why they do this isn't to cool them down.
The reason why they do this is for a couple of reasons.

When the show is a long one and they both stretched out like a lizard drinking,
you blow on the dog so they can get your scent to let them know you are there but MOST of all,
when a dog is down on the ground, they begin to shallow breath.
When this happens they begin to breath in their own Carbon Dioxide.
Blowing on them in the face will give them forced fresh air to breath.

This will help the dog a little to recover to come back..

[Iron Mike]

C'mon now this is getting funny..... IF IM can dish it he can take it. IM has been around along time this aint his first rodeo....LOL
I can take it but I will hand it out a lot harder then most can take because I've been there and know the difference.

My experience doesn't come from something I read in a book,
mine comes from hands on experience....

[Iron Mike]

Well Fancier, we cross paths again.....
YIS
Rago:p
Ya think so, get the handle right.
If we ever have crossed paths, you would have remember it.

Originally Posted by Iron Mike
LOL ya right! LMAO
Throw one in with a Pit Dog and see if it fights to dominate or will be fighting for survival. ROTFL.
I agree with this part, but...

Pit Dogs don't fight because of the love of it, they fight because it is instinctive.
What?! Ever noticed that wagging tail? That's pure enjoyment.

And many don't. Waste of energy.
You really think dogs only love to do what is instinive for them?

BTW VERY few dogs are finishers.
Only a fool would bet on one scratching on a down or dead dog...
True...

[Iron Mike]

LOL YOU DONT KNOW SHIT HAHAHAHA
Think so, then should be easy for someone as knowledgeable as you.
Find out for sure.....:p

[simms]

I can take it but I will hand it out a lot harder then most can take because I've been there and know the difference.

My experience doesn't come from something I read in a book,
mine comes from hands on experience.... Hell, everybody know's your as old as dirt,an they didnt have books back then..LOL

[14rock]

The reason why they do this isn't to cool them down.
We're at least talking about the same time now, but still....different ends of the dog :p

Yes, I know quite a few handlers who will blow on the rectum to lower the internal temperature of the dog. Absolutely no idea if it works, but that is their theory. And truth be told, since dogs don't "sweat" or open their pores, circulating air in any opening, seems more beneficial than fanning a dogs body.

Thoughts?

[Iron Mike]

We're at least talking about the same time now, but still....different ends of the dog :p

Yes, I know quite a few handlers who will blow on the rectum to lower the internal temperature of the dog. Absolutely no idea if it works, but that is their theory. And truth be told, since dogs don't "sweat" or open their pores, circulating air in any opening, seems more beneficial than fanning a dogs body.

Thoughts?
If it is a male dog, I wouldn't advise to try it or you might get dog bit!
Most males don't like anything around their ass!:rolleyes:
No, it will not lower the dog's temp.

Yes dogs do!
Through their feet and they also release moisture through their mouth.

[Iron Mike]

Hell, everybody knows your as old as dirt,an they didnt have books back then..LOL
An old dog can lose his athleticism and his teeth worn down where it can't take hold good but a true game dog will stay game his whole life.

Old age and treachery will over come youth and skill.

[14rock]

Yes dogs do!
Through their feet and they also release moisture through their mouth.Correct, pads and mouth. But not the pores of the body, as humans "sweat". They do not sweat through their pores, there is no wicking away of moisture by fanning the body, and all in all, your doing very little to actually cool them down if this is your method.

[Iron Mike]

Correct, pads and mouth. But not the pores of the body, as humans "sweat". They do not sweat through their pores, there is no wicking away of moisture by fanning the body, and all in all, your doing very little to actually cool them down if this is your method.
Some times I have to really wonder why I respond to some people!!
Are you really serious or just impress to see yourself posting?

Dogs DO have pores on their pads!
They don't have glands like they have in their mouth...

Blowing on their ass is better then this:

"Pit Dog you cool down first, depending on who's turn it is to scratch, if it isn't your turn then you wipe out the mouth, then to cool the dog down the sponge or rag you can either put it on their balls, neck/throat area so the air is cooled when it breaths, or under the spine area in the chest or at the base of the neck by the shoulder area where one of the main part of the central nervous system is.
And the last thing to do is make sure to ring out all the water on the area of which the other dog is working. This is to make it slippery and for the other dog to swallow blood, water and hair hoping later on it will make the other dog noxious."

You can stick your whole head up their ass and won't cool down a dog by blowing into it!

I can tell by reading this you have never showed a dog....

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Lol Iron Mike...your ways make a b!tch lap feel good....

Why you post?

I hope for the benefit for those that DO want to learn and want to do right by their dogs (not saying 14rock does not).

If you do not mind clarifying something.....could you please restate the different method of cooling a dog (pre-1976) when its his turn scratch against when it is not? Do experienced dogmen use the same methods or does it depend on preferences or dogs?

Thanking you in advance.


Rocky H. Balboa

[14rock]

Do you even read the posts?

I clearly agreed they cool-down through their PADS. I thought that was obvious, that I was excluding the pads. Must of been lost on you.

Also made it perfectly clear, I did not know if blowing on the rectum will cool a dog down, and that I have never done it ;)

Your damn right, I've never shown a dog. LOL!

[reddog]

If you do not mind clarifying something.....could you please restate the different method of cooling a dog when its his turn "pull" against when it is not? Do experienced dogmen use the same methods or does it depend on preferences or dogs?

Thanking you in advance.


Rocky H. Balboa[/QUOTE]Rocky,The first thing you want to do is check to see if your dog is fanged.Wash out there mouth then with cool water, soak there arm pits,back and front,thats where a lot of blood vessels are.If you cool the blood you cool the dog,just a bit.Ive never seen a dogman blow on a dogs anything!

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Rocky,The first thing you want to do is check to see if your dog is fanged.Wash out there mouth then with cool water, soak there arm pits,back and front,thats where a lot of blood vessels are.If you cool the blood you cool the dog,just a bit.Ive never seen a dogman blow on a dogs anything!
Thank you reddog for your thoughts. I knew about what you mentioned......just wanted to hear IM take on the differences (in pre-1976 laws) of cooling a dog when it is his time to scratch against when it will be scratched upon. I believe he made a clear distinction between both.

[Iron Mike]

Lol Iron Mike...your ways make a b!tch lap feel good....

Why you post?

I hope for the benefit for those that DO want to learn and want to do right by their dogs (not saying 14rock does not).

If you do not mind clarifying something.....could you please restate the different method of cooling a dog (pre-1976) when its his turn scratch against when it is not? Do experienced dogmen use the same methods or does it depend on preferences or dogs?

Thanking you in advance.


Rocky H. Balboa
I learned this years ago from Joe Corvino and watched Sonny many times handling.

The logic was when it is your turn to scratch you don't wipe the mouth because cooling the mouth, late in the show, will distract and maybe cool the dog down to much.
You want him to be thinking only of returning to the action and keeping him ready to return scratch.

When it isn't your turn, you wipe the mouth because wiping the mouth will cool the dog down same as giving him water or ice chips.

When you wipe the mouth you clear the mouth and make breathing air cooler.
When a dog cools down to much, late in the show, you give him a chance to think about the show and when they think about it, they think about quiting, as we all know, 9 out of 10 dogs showed, will quit.

[Iron Mike]

Rocky H. Balboa Rocky,The first thing you want to do is check to see if your dog is fanged.Wash out there mouth then with cool water, soak there arm pits,back and front,thats where a lot of blood vessels are.If you cool the blood you cool the dog,just a bit.Ive never seen a dogman blow on a dogs anything!

If you are paying attention during the action you should know whether your dog is fanged or not.
This is part of the strategy of a handler with in the first 10 minutes of the show whether his dog has the mouth, ability and speed over the other dog.
Once he knows, then he can decide whether or not he wants to make this a long show or a short one.:)

[Boze]

It was the way YOU worded it, by the statement I made there is no way I am saying any or some of the APBTs I have seen are not game, Ill tell you when I think one is not game, but first off you need to study your big cats bro, I know what a cat can do to a dog I have seen it, from bobcats to mountain lions so I dont need a crash course of when and how a cat goes into shock or what a dog will do to it...Gameness is not in terms of only one dog on another dog or just 1 certain animal, it is definable to any prey a dog has been trianed and bred to hunt, like I said compared to another dog a Patterdale is shit but when theyre on their favorite prey the gameness they exhibit is par exellence and second to none, just because theyre not like that on another dog does not mean they are not GAME...really before you decide who would brush me off or consider me anything from what I say understand I am talking about...I am referring to gameness in the dogs paticular element not compared to each other...thats a stupid comparison... and when you make certain comments about this or that or what would happen or what I have seen in dogs... it really shows me you probaly have never seen a dog hunt or get involved in something with a big cat or feral hog or anything big enough to fight back like even another dog because it doesnt alway just boom whap TA-DA go the bulldogs way everytime, I am sure there is some members here who have lost a game dog to a big cat or big male hog or something, just because its a game dog dont guarantee victory....and just because I am educated to compare the definition of gameness between 2 breeds of game dog does not mean I have not seen good game APBTs I can just see differences in gameness among what the breed was bred for and to me its different....Great answer i am no as experienced as you two are, but i just finished reading The rocca fighting for life book and he was talking about dights where staffs have been quite game and have beaten pitbulls on ocasion i believe whuile thes pitbulls are very game there are more ways to display gameness other than fighting i mean seriously a mountain lion is no joke those things are huge and patterdales are like what 30 lbs if that aint game then i dont no what is some dogmen may think that pitbulls are the most game and that may be true but should give the respect to another breed that is also puting their lives at great risk

[MinorThreat]

you are incorrect

and Iron Mike is the most experienced dogman on this forum, everyone can learn something from him.

[Boze]

" I have personally seen patterdales from old bobcat hunting lines in kansas that were more game in my opinion than any APBT I have ever seen."

My good man these are your words..How did I word it any different from what YOU typed?.
Secondly I feel no need to study up any more than I already have on the feline species..I have always been a fan of big cats and have watched many a documentary on all of the different varieties so I know how they hunt and kill their prey..
You also have a very different interpitation of the word gameness than I do..What you call gameness I call prey drive..To each his own I guess..

As I stated early I dont have any hands on expirience with working terriers or hunting dogs but I have seen footage of a few different boar hunts and I was not that impressed..EVERY catch dog that I saw would catch a ear and hang on..EVERY trail dog that I saw would circle menacingly,and sometimes dart in and snip but thats about it..That does not impress me in the least bit as far as gameness goes..People are risking their lives as well as their dogs life so I do have respect for those that participate in such activities, I just dont think that it tests a dogs gameness..Have yo ever seen or read about badger trials, some say that is a better tyest of gameness than fighting other dogs because the dogs have to find that badger in the tunnel and are not allowed to make any noise then they are on there bellies and have no way to turn around away the badger they have to fight the badger and grab onto it and then wait for the handler to grab the badger and there were many different types of terriers used and they proved to be very game

[GABulldog]

i have seen a patterdale work with its nose chewed off and love every last bit of it.. no arueing here its just i dont think you have seen enough terriers work to make that call..but i could be wrong .. i have said it before and ill say it again i have seen the roosters fight a lot and them things aint no were near GAME . The handelers pull there heads blow up there asses and plopp them down on the ground trying to get them to work ..and hell most of them will run from a duck no shit thats the truth..i seen more than once .dude i grew up in PR and seen many many cock fights growing up and knew many breeders that had game fucking birds man...game birds are bout it no matter what anyone says...then afterwards we had fried chicken. sorry that just grabbed my attention.

[Boze]

great post also some dogs that would do go great and prove game for another handler can still be game these are animals not machines mayb sometimes they just dont feel like fighting i will say i have never seen a fight so i am just stating some that i think could be true i have we really dont no why the dog dont scratch but if they will prove game for some and not for others then wouldnt there be some reason other than there gameness

[Boze]

Only dead game dogs are the ones who chooses to take their death because their instinctive drive is so great the animal has no concept of quiting.

When I was a kid, Bob Hemphill told me 9 out 10 dogs quit because of conditioning.

So like most, I figured the key was in being the best conditioner.
This isn't what he meant, he meant you're lucky if one out of ten are dead game that are showed.you really knew bob hemphill that must have been awesome i reall wished i lived back in the days of real dogmen that honestly is one of the biggest wishes iv had i would love to get to talk to someone like floyd boudreaux or james crenshaw

[Boze]

you are incorrect

and Iron Mike is the most experienced dogman on this forum, everyone can learn something from him.i am new to this site i meant no disrespect to iron mike he knew some good dog men from wat i have read so anything he would tell me i would take that advice very seriously and be honored that he would give me any advice as i said a have no hands on experience but i live these dogs i think trhey are the best animals alive and i have done much research i have read many historical documents i honestly am obsessed it is all i do is read aboout the dogs from the old days and about the old time dogmen so someone like iron mike whose knows these great dogmen is someone who i wish i was him because that is all i want to do is be ablr to talk dogs with the real deal. and as far as i can tell iron mike looks like the real thing

[Boze]

you are incorrect

and Iron Mike is the most experienced dogman on this forum, everyone can learn something from him.

Incorrect about what. about staffs beating pitbulls. back then they were the same bread while some were bred for show they still had fighting bloodlines. and considering what I said came straight from the writiing of someone as experienced as frank rocca i am inclined to believe what he has seen with his own eyes over your assumptions

[FLpits]

the Colby family would probally know this better than anybody since they've been breeding this dog longer than anybody, but Diane Jessup thinks there pure old bull dog and she's friend with the Colby family. I think there all bulldog and the american and terrier are just names add on later down the road.

[Boze]

the Colby family would probally know this better than anybody since they've been breeding this dog longer than anybody, but Diane Jessup thinks there pure old bull dog and she's friend with the Colby family. I think there all bulldog and the american and terrier are just names add on later down the road.i am not arguing but have you seen some pitbulls they look like terriers take STP's buck for ex look at his face structure and his muzzlu his muzzle is kind of long also if you watch the way terriers play and act there are many similarities to the pit bull also take the color of pit bulls according to history bulldogs were buckskin

[mydawgs]

I know this is off topic, but all this talk about big cats and dogs has made me remember a gentleman speaking of dogs and bears. Would the same strategy of many smaller dead serious terriers and some larger PBs bringing the prey down work with a bear...like a grizzly???? I can't wrap my haed around this. And the gentleman I was referring to said it was a huntin dogs owners worst nightmare..the dogs would certainly go after the bear but hardly ever come out alive?????

[miakoda]

I do believe that there is some terrier blood in these dogs. Do I believe it's a 50/50 mix? Heck no. I think this dog has more bulldog than anything. But terriers were amazing little ratters and often spent a lot of time in the pit...just not necessarily against other dogs.

And FLpits, Jessup is an idiot. She "hates" dogfighters & yada yada yada yet she wants them as her best friends to boost her own reputation among APBT owners. You're better off not ever paying attention to what comes out of her mouth.

For instance, she just recently sent out messages claiming she has some of Patrick's dogs and was looking for good, reputable homes for them. Funny, since she does NOT have the authority to do such a thing! Those dogs are still at the heart of a huge investigation. (if she even has any of the dogs at all)

[SPFDOGS]

I know this is off topic, but all this talk about big cats and dogs has made me remember a gentleman speaking of dogs and bears. Would the same strategy of many smaller dead serious terriers and some larger PBs bringing the prey down work with a bear...like a grizzly???? I can't wrap my haed around this. And the gentleman I was referring to said it was a huntin dogs owners worst nightmare..the dogs would certainly go after the bear but hardly ever come out alive?????Ive seen bear baiting tapes that were filmed in Pakistan (circa 2000) which involved dogs that looked like rangy bull terriers..The dogs have a name which slips my mind right now, but there is a website about them and appearantly they have been bred for such activities for many decades..The bears wore nose rings,and from what I saw didnt have any teeth but they still got open..The dogs would leap into the bear and take hold,and the bear would slam/swat the dogs for 3-5 minutes until the handlers would grab the dogs by a hind leg and use a rough impression of a breaking stick to seperate them..These bears were around 300-350lbs ( I might be a little light,but these were DEFINETLY not griizzlies..They looked like black bears,or maybe sun bears)and were never in any serious danger..These events are held in front of a couple thousand spectators,and from what I can tell were more of a "spectacle" than a real competition as there really isnt a way to "win"..

In my opinion there are only a few types of animals that would rather fight than run when NOT "backed into a corner",and the bear is not one of them..I think if 2-3 bulldogs were to take hold of a grizzly the bear would high tail it,and there is NO WAY the dogs would be able to "take him down"..If it was a mother bear with cubs I believe the dogs would be lunch..

[SPFDOGS]

Have yo ever seen or read about badger trials, some say that is a better tyest of gameness than fighting other dogs because the dogs have to find that badger in the tunnel and are not allowed to make any noise then they are on there bellies and have no way to turn around away the badger they have to fight the badger and grab onto it and then wait for the handler to grab the badger and there were many different types of terriers used and they proved to be very game
Are you serious?. WHO said it was the best test for gamness?..

[Highbloodbulldog]

Have yo ever seen or read about badger trials, some say that is a better tyest of gameness than fighting other dogs because the dogs have to find that badger in the tunnel and are not allowed to make any noise then they are on there bellies and have no way to turn around away the badger they have to fight the badger and grab onto it and then wait for the handler to grab the badger and there were many different types of terriers used and they proved to be very game
You gotta be kidding... it can't be serious.

:eek:

Then I will purchase a dead game terrier very soon... :( ...I don't think so...