Why Cross!!!????????

[who]

My question is to the breeders that are crossing with EVERYTHING in sight....why dont you get a PURE bloodline instead of crossing everything you get your hands on?.....i know yall will prolly say somthing like..."get the best of the bloodlines" or somthing to that effect.....YEAH...you may come out with a BAD A** dog but where has the consistency gone....ROCKET LAUNCHED out the window...... whats the use of haveing this "GREAT" dog if you cant reproduce it?...... thats what breeders have strived for the last 150 years ...bred for consistency .....but now adays....the bloodlines have become tarnished in a matter of 15 years....what DOGMEN strived for has been destroyed.........i am just saying this cause one day the GAMEDOG as I know it will disappear is this Crossing SH*T keeps going on

[powder925]

this crossing is going to keep happening as long as there is money to be made by winning,and the only way to stay competive is to breed best to the best.I have to agree with you though that it is a shame that so few people are breeding pure bloodlines. Its a shame that the pure bloodlines probable won't last but breeding best to best is the only way to better the breed as a whole.IMHO I don't think many of the the older pure bloodline dogs could still compete at the top level nowadays.

[superman69]

when u dont out cross and u keep it in the family after a while u start to lose traits like hard mouth endurance u need all these not just gameness u dont have to out cross a lot just enough to say u did but out cross with good stuff

[Texasbulldogs]

There is no such thing as a pure dog! Why don’t you share your wealth of knowledge in keeping a bloodline pure, while at the same time effectively and consistently preserve certain traits, while not succumbing to genetic faults that go along with tight breedings? Please leave out theories and such; just state facts and you overall success with said breeding strategy. I’m really interested in learning something. Since history has shown that most of the best producers are from one of three breeding combinations.<O:p</O:p

[powder925]

When I say "pure" I mean bloodlines like Lonzo, Alligator

[Texasbulldogs]

“When I say "pure" I mean bloodlines like Lonzo, Alligator”
Pure means nothing if the percentage of good dogs is minimal. Alligator himself was a very loose line-bred dog. Zebo was a solid bred. But his dam was another loosely line-bred dog. What do both of these “pure” dogs have in common? Low percentages…especially Zebo he had some solid b!tches back up to him, yet what did he produce...how about his littermates? Why because he was a “freak of nature” and freaks don’t reproduce themselves the fall back to producing what is the average of their bloodline (rank curs).
So as I have pointed out, your "pure" dogs are loosely line-bred or have loosely line-bred relatives. So if they are loosely bred how can they be "PURE" and I was only looking back 1 generation. Not much telling what I would find if I looked back more (too lazy).

[KnOck]

Well put Texasbulldogs!

KnOck

[SSandecki]

Texasbulldogs, good reply and to the point.

[powder925]

well I guess instead of calling them pure lines I should of said tight jeep,eli,redboy ect(sorry still learning)I understand what you mean about no pure bloodlines but what I meant to say is that most breeders have tight jeep,eli redboy lines that they use for outcrossing to other lines for hybrid vigor but once they get a good one that consitatly throws the same good traits to their offspring they will probable start to linebreed it and then outcrossing to other hybrids that are producing,eventually people will stop breeding tight jeep,eli,redboy lines.Maybe I am way off but like I said I am new and still learning.
The reason for all the crossing is to combine the advantages of both lines and hopfully overcomming the disadvantages of each.

[who]

this ia a ped of one of ### Kershners dog

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=45661
thats just one and if you look back he is PURE in every since of the word and OR-not will become a ROM his producing abilities are awesome....these are ###'s words...."My dogs are more PURE BAR ANY MANS YARD.....and to say they arent isnt doing MAYFIELD any justice"......when you breed best to best WITHIN THE FAMILY you will have GAME dogs...just to a % that can hardly be compared to....PURE PURE and to say thier not IS NOT TRUE

[who]

My responsea to the crosses is why do that gene pool becomes SO BIG that you DO NOT HAVE CONSISTENCY....im just tring to say that stick with your family even if it is a cross fmaily breed with other GOOD dogs bred like yours....and as for that guys that said after you family breed for so long you lose traits THAT IS UNTRUE if you do it right you will ALWAYS come out with better dogs just LEARN....D Mayfield has video tapes of him teaching EVERYTHING about gamedogs...i HIGHLY reccomend these tapes for ANYONE wanting to learn THE TRUTH about gamedogs its like going to college...

[who]

here is one that is really PURE

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=32887

[Texasbulldogs]

“thats just one and if you look back he is PURE in every since of the word”
Define “pure”. He is a heavily inbred Nigger dog (loose line-bred dog).<O:p</O:p

“and OR-not will become a ROM his producing abilities are awsome.”
That is just your opinion. I’m not a follower of the blood, but going by what the link you provide is shows he is a very LOW-producing dog. He has been bred to 14 bitches; just for argument sakes lets say each had only 5 pups (70 total offspring (that’s only what is listed)). Yet he only produced a total of 6 wins and 1 OTC. So counting the OTC out of every 10 dogs you get you would be able to muster 1 win. Hurray!<O:p</O:p

“ these are words...."My dogs are more PURE BAR ANY MANS YARD.....and to say they arent isnt doing D.M. any justice"”
What do you expect him too say, “I am consider a joke amongst most in the game. My dogs are severely in-bred, low producing, feed burner”? Also breeding bulldogs is not about “doing justice too D.M.”. It is about producing better dogs!<O:p</O:p

“when you breed best to best WITHIN THE FAMILY you will have GAME dogs”
If it is/was that easy (breeding) why is there still cur within every line? Also why can someone breed two game dogs together and get curs?<O:p</O:p

“just to a % that can hardly be compared to”
Refer to above. I’ve known street bred mutts that produced better than your example.<O:p</O:p

“PURE PURE anbd to say thier not IS NOT TRUE”
Again define PURE?

<O:p</O:p

<!-- / message --><!-- pedigree --><!-- / pedigree -->

[JC-Pitbulls]

My response to the crosses is why do that you gene pool becomes SO BIG that you DO NOT HAVE CONSISTENCY....im just tring to say that stick with your family even if it is a cross fmaily breed with other GOOD dogs bred like yours....and as for that guys that said after you family breed for so long you lose traits THAT IS UNTRUE if you do it right you will ALWAYS come out with better dogs just LEARN....Don Mayfield has video tapes of him teaching EVERYTHING about gamedogs...i HIGHLY reccomend these tapes for ANYONE wanting to learn THE TRUTH about gamedogs its like going to college...
Do you work for D M , seems to be all you can talk about. The APBT in it's purest form came from Bulldogs/Terriers, which would make it unpure. Through selective breeding people were able to maintain the traits that they wanted, and set a standard for the APBT. PURE means 100% The peds you posted are nice, but when you go back further you start to see the loosenes in the ped. I'm not saying your dog's are not good dog's, I'm just saying I have never seen a PURE APBT. I've seen good Linebreed dog's and good Scatterbreed dog's, just as well I've seen bad Line and Scatterbreed dogs.Everyone do your homework,breed for good traits,and keep APBT's alive.

[who]

okay first the theory about the "PITBULL" coming from a cross between the old bulldog and a terrier is STUPID the "PITBULL" is the old bulldog...(i believe) when bullbaiting became illegal they starting pitting thier dogs HENCE "PITBULL" thats where the PITBULL and the AMERICAN BULLDOG differ one was bred as a "CATCH DOG" and protector.....the "PITBULL" (when bullbaiting became illegal) was bred for its aggression towards other dogs the gameness has been there all this time....(once again i BELEIVE)

AND NOW for my post towards the people saying these dogs are loosley family bred.....these dogs a PURE what i meant by PURE is that they come from the SAME FAMILY and have been KEPT in this family since DIBO....just look and you can see......these dogs ARE the PUREST FAMILYs .....YES you may say im a mayfield follower...but im not against other FAMILIES im against the constant CROSSING that is going on in todays "FASTLANE" i think people should do a little research on GENE structure before they do these crosses....you all wanna know why the CROSS between JOCKO and REDDBOY worked look at JOCKO's PED that'll give you your answer.......and where did JEEP come from? a PART of this family (MEANING off dibo) and the understanding of DIBO goes back even farther to FEELEY lines and those dogs are PURE and in a since DIBO was a PURE dog from a PURE family....DO YALL SEE WHAT IM SAYING?
and those dogs arent loosley bred!!!!!

[Texasbulldogs]

My response to the crosses is why do that you gene pool becomes SO BIG that you DO NOT HAVE CONSISTENCY”
You need to study bloodlines more, and learn the difference between a cross and a scatter-bred dog. <O:p</O:p
“D M has video tapes of him teaching EVERYTHING about gamedogs”
Why hasn’t he taught himself how to produce winning dog with high percentages? Maybe he could ask R.K.?<O:p</O:p
“HIGHLY reccomend these tapes for ANYONE wanting to learn THE TRUTH about gamedogs its like going to college...”
Is that where you studied (college D.M.)? I’d personally ask for a refund if I was you.

[JC-Pitbulls]

okay first the theory about the "PITBULL" comeing from a cross betwenn the old bulldog and a terrier is STUPID the "PITBULL" is the old bulldog...(i believe) when bullbaiting became illegal they starting pitting thier dogs HENCE "PITBULL" thats where the PITBULL and the AMERICAN BULLDOG differ one was bred as a "CATCH DOG" and protector.....the "PITBULL" (when bullbaiting became illegal) was bred for its aggression towards other dogs the gameness has been there all this time....(once again i BELEIVE)

AND NOW for my post towards the people saying these dogs are loosly family bred.....these dogs a PURE what i meant by PURE is that they come from the SAME FAMILY and have been KEPT in this family since DIBO....just look and you can see......these dogs ARE the PUREST FAMILYs .....YES you may say im a mayfield follower...but im not against other FAMILIES im against the constant CROSSING that is going on in todays "FASTLANE" i think people should do a little research on GENE structure before they do these crosses....yall wanna know why the CROSS between JOCKO and REDDBOY worked look at JOCKO's PED that'll give you your answer.......and where did JEEP come from? a PART of this family (MEANING off dibo) and the understanding of DIBO goes back even farther to FEELEY lines and those dogs are PURE and in a since DIBO was a PURE dog from a PURE family....DO YALL SEE WHAT IM SAYING?
and those dogs arent lossly bred!!!!!
Jeep is only 6.25% Dibo, but don,t get me wrong I like Dibo.

[who]

you know i think you should be in GAMEDOG chat or something with the way you BASH.....do you know who D M is i hope they let this name slide....he IS one of the all time greats in the GAMEDOG history he matched 117 times and won like 80 somthing of them if thats not a good % then i dont know what is....lol.......OKAY there are 2 kinds of CROSSES family cross which would be like to a cousin or something ....and what the other cross is....what most people call a "BATTLECROSS" which yes can maybe produce good dogs (MAYBE) but being able to reproduce that trait is hard...this thing i keep refering to (CONSISTENCY) is what the dogmen of the past has tried to do and people are DESTROYING this thing that became so HARD to keep....im just encouraging family breedings and I AM NOT CONDONNING ANY TYPE of "battlecross" .......dogs should stay in their family....... unless you want somthing that your dogs dont have....dont cross it...... get a bloodline that has what you want .....its that simple QUIT TARNISHING THE BLOODLINES!!!!!!!!!!!

[JC-Pitbulls]

I'm not bashing, I'm just saying what I feel. Everything you say has to do with D.M. I know he 's a great dogman, and I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying speak your mind, not his. And If you really think about it just about every line has good and bad dogs.

[who]

but what sepereates PURER lines from others is the consistency of the GOOD ones produced....NO the results from the IS-not dog is not posted because that is how the magazine was taken down real dogmen dont need documentation to prove their dogs...is-not has only had i cull from his producing career..and that dog ate strict9 or whatever and she never turned on......granted most of his pups are still young but the ones of age are making is-not know for his abilities

[JC-Pitbulls]

I agree consistency will make better dogs, but crosses will work also.

[Texasbulldogs]

“im against the constant CROSSING that is going on in todays "FASTLANE"”
Why? What is your breeding track record (hopefully as good as R.K.’s lol). Have you ever wondered why these “idiot” with these crossed dogs seem to always out perform your “buddies” dogs? And not all “fastlane” dogs are crossed (example Glock is an in-bred dog).<O:p</O:p

“i think people should do a little research on GENE structure before they do these crosses”
You and your “buddies” breeding for “structure” instead of performance? That explains the LOW percentage.<O:p</O:p

“yall wanna know why the CROSS between JOCKO and REDDBOY worked look at JOCKO's PED that'll give you your answer”
I know why? Do you? Could you tell me about Jocko? What were they known for before the cross? Answer…rank curs. They needed Redboy in them to be competitive. <O:p</O:p

“ and where did JEEP come from?”
Is this a trick question? Could the answer be his MOMMA?<O:p</O:p

“since DIBO was a PURE dog from a PURE family”
Learn too read pedigrees better or use better examples (Dibo was another loosely bred dog).<O:p</O:p

“DO YALL SEE WHAT IM SAYING?”
NO. If I did I’d be REAL scared! How can you “see what someone is saying”?

[who]

TEXAS i think you just looking to BASH and you have no idea what i saying cause you don't want to listen....Redboy stuff ways crossed because redboy dogs COULDN'T compete NO ABILITY and thats said by ALL DOGMEN besides you..i think you would fit in well over in the gamedog chat and yall can talk about how your dogs are the best in the world....cause you ARE TOTALLY OFF base on every thing i have said ......"fastlane" dogs matched against "fastlane" hogs don't mean nothing when you having a battle of scatterbred dogs...a REAL dogmen would match against anything and everything as TUDOR ONCE PUT IT...so you stick with your dogs and ill stick with mine if you ever wanna talk PM me.....

[SSandecki]

Who, you'll last longer in the community not "attacking" and I use that word loosely texasbulldogs posts, he is well respected here and his opinion is as well, becareful who you "bash back at".

[who]

so he can bash me but i cant to it back?

[SSandecki]

I don't believe he was bashing you, should be no one bashing anyone!

[who]

i agree i started this post to get an answer why people keep crossing bloodlines and i gave an example of such NON CROSSING and texas stared BASHING like a guy from gamedog chat lol thats all

[SSandecki]

He was just making a point, I don't consider that bashing, just as you were.

[TERRIBLE TEXAS]

i agree, bulldogs was just making a very good point, not bashing
He was just making a point, I don't consider that bashing, just as you were.

[Texasbulldogs]

“do you know who D M is i hope they let this name slide....he IS one of the all time greats in the GAMEDOG history he matched 117 times and won like 80 somthing of them if thats not a good % then i dont know what is”
Yes, I know the man probably meet him before you knew what a bulldog was. He was one of the all time great “conditioners” of his era. You are stating his conditioning record, but yet we are talking about breeding here (I thought).
“what most people call a "BATTLECROSS" which yes can maybe produce good dogs (MAYBE) but being able to reproduce that trait is hard”
Someone forgot to tell GrCh. Buck, GrCh Mayday, Werdo, Frisco, Bolio, Ch. Yellow John etc. All of these dogs are crossed. But yet they have seem to of produced.<O:p</O:p
“ im just encouraging family breedings”
What breeding experience do you have? You have yet to state that.<O:p</O:p
“NO the results from the IS-not dog is not posted because that is how the magazine was taken down real dogmen dont need documentation to prove their dogs”
That’s what most say, but amazingly nothing off R.K or D.M.’s yard seems to make a wake in the bulldog world, a glimpse here and there is about it. Just for the record that is not how the Journal’s owner got busted. <O:p</O:p
“is-not has only had i cull from his producing career..and that dog ate strict9 or whatever and she never turned on”
Did R.K. feed you that line of crap?<O:p</O:p
“granted most of his pups are still young but the ones of age are making is-not know for his abilities”
Went from only 1 (I’m guessing that’s what you meant), not too they are still young. Which is it?<O:p</O:p
“TEXAS i think you just looking to BASH and you have no idea what i saying cause you dont want to listen”
Not bashing you at all. I’m well aware of what you are saying, just happen to disagree with it, it has nothing to do with my reading comprehension.<O:p</O:p
“ Redboy stuff ways crossed because redboy dogs COULDNT compete NO ABILITY and thats said by ALL DOGMEN besides you”
That is correct, they couldn’t compete in general. But in your post earlier you try to make it sound like Redboy dogs needed Jocko dogs and it is the other way around. Fact.<O:p</O:p
“cause you ARE TOTALLY OFF base on every thing i have said”
I’m off base because I disagree with you? Why would I agree when fact have shown you to be wrong. All you are doing is spreading the lies that D.M. and R.K. spoon-fed you.<O:p</O:p
“"fastlane" dogs matched against "fastlane" hogs dont mean nothing when you having a battle of scatterbred dogs”
If you say so, but totally disagree with you. I’d be impressed if you had a dog that could of hung with GrCh 35, or GrCh Chuco Loco both street-bred mutts. <O:p</O:p
“a REAL dogmen would match against anything and everything as TUDOR ONCE PUT IT”
Earlier it wouldn’t mean anything if your “pure” dog matched with a scatterbred dog, know you saying a “real dogman” should match against anything and everything. Which is it?<O:p</O:p
“so he can bash me but i cant to it back?”
Once again I’m not bashing, just don’t agree with what you are saying.
<!-- / message --><!-- pedigree --><!-- / pedigree -->

[swosprey]

I know everyone is getting a little heated, but I think debates like this are good. It lets us learn new
opinions and ideas. I think that as long as people are willing to be passionate about the
dogs, then they will be passionate when it comes to protecting the breed. I just hope all of these
guys will make there opinions heard if the BSL's keep popping up.

[AC]

I say use what works. Chances are the peds on dogs nowadays are in some way distorted. So who knows what's bred like what anymore. Quite frankly if it's working for you that's all that matters. Stick to your own plan and don't worry about what everyone else is doing :)

[SSandecki]

Very true, why does everyone try to be like everyone else now a days, people need to wanna start trends, not follow them!

[Texasbulldogs]

G.H. said it best “Before you back up the b!tch to old Butch answer the question…’WHY?’”. Just remember the only thing that matters in breeding bulldogs is being able to efficaciously and reliably carry on certain traits. It that what you were trying too say in a round about way Who?

[SSandecki]

I just love how texas uses the red text and black for replies.... so professional :cool:

[JC-Pitbulls]

I just love how texas uses the red text and black for replies.... so professional :cool:
Yeah, He's Good:)

[who]

all im trying to say and i have said it before on these posts....I dont see why poeple keep crossing their lines.... keep to your family....you'll have better more consistent dogs....and as for all the "FAMOUS" crosses most of the dogs that you mintion were bred to ALOT of their own family on side or the other...but im not trying to start fights im just trying to give advice to other DOGMEN ..so they have better dogs and the comp. will be a little more competitive u know...but i guess im wrong in TEXAS's eyes and YES you can say im stuck up R.K. and D.M. ass but im sticking with somthing that IS PROVEN...and has the BEST GENES IN THE GAME...DON's record as breeding is as well as his conditioning record...most if not all the dogs he has matched were from his yard or are closely related to his yard.....BUT THANKS FOR THE CONVERSATION TEXAS i hope i made you think twice before you cross on your next breeding LOL

[Marty]

There is "NO PURE" 100% blood in existence & no way to get it"PURE"

Thats just the way it is. ;)

[who]

no marty i didnt say PURE i said the PUREST as close as our dogs come to it we have little DIBO's and Nigger's walking around lol or the DAMN CLOSEST thing to them and if you look at the peds you can tell....our lines has the PUREST GENES and ONE of the purest familys.....if you wanna argue with that come to our chat
http://www.donmayfield.com
http://www.dogtowngamedogs.com

we are in one or the other come in and we'll drop some knowledge on you lol

[Big River Kennels]

While I agree with Texas, If you spread out the bloodlines so thin, how will you know which bloodlines have the traits that you want. you need to stick to a maximum of three bloodlines preferrable two. When I say this I mean three tightly bred dogs. My yard has predominently Jeep/nigerino/bolio. The next breeding I will do will be late spring when I breed a Jeep stud to a 1/4 bolio 3/4 nigerino bitch. That jeep stud is about 40% jeep 50 jocko and the other 10% is thin so as you can see I am tightening the blood line to make it more of a predominent trait that I am looking for.

[Big River Kennels]

besides the bloodline, the other 50% is the training, without good training, even the best bloodline is worthless.

[Marty]

"WHO" let me give "YOU" some advice "DO NOT CONTINTUE TO POST FULL NAMES OR YOU WILL BE BANNED FROM THIS SITE".

Thanks no more warning you.

Heres the link on rules of this site

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/announcement.php?f=6&announcementid=1

READ them this is not gamedogs.com.

[Texasbulldogs]

“most of the dogs that you mintion were bred to A LOT”
Why do you suppose that is? Because they produced!<O:p</O:p

“but im not trying to start fights im just trying to give advice to other DOGMEN”
I don’t believe anyone here is trying to start a fight are arguing, just debating a subject. So are you every going to state “your breeding success”?<O:p</O:p

“but i guess im wrong in TEXAS's eyes”
Not just in my eyes, but in actual documented facts. All you have done is state the “lies” D.M. and R.K. have fed you. You say only breed “pure”, where are all the winning and producing “pure” dogs? If just breeding “pure” was all one had to concern themselves with in breeding, wouldn’t everyone have good, game, pure dogs?<O:p</O:p

“YES you can say im stuck up R.K. and D.M. ass but im sticking with somthing that IS PROVEN”
Yes, we knew that! What I find ironic is you only have 2 “UNPURE” dogs, and neither one of them is bred by D.M. or R.K, you adamantly too others to stay pure, yet you don’t even believe enough in it too feed it.<O:p</O:p

“DON's record as breeding is as well as his conditioning record.”
Then why don’t you provide the facts to back up your statements?<O:p</O:p

“most if not all the dogs he has matched were from his yard or are closely related to his yard”
That doesn’t mean a thing and I’ll tell you why. I know of 8 kennel’s off the top of my head that have a very high winning percentages showing and breeding, yet they are the only ones winning with their stock. Why, because it’s has more to do with there superior conditioning and little to do with their breedings.<O:p</O:p

“BUT THANKS FOR THE CONVERSATION TEXAS i hope i made you think twice before you cross on your next breeding LOL”
Your welcome, why would I take advise from someone with no breeding experience?<O:p</O:p

“as close as our dogs come to it we have little DIBO's and Nigger's walking around lol or the DAMN CLOSEST thing to them and if you look at the peds you can tell.”
LOL. Who, you are a character you don’t have anything to do with them. <O:p</O:p

“our lines has the PUREST GENES and ONE of the purest familys”
When did you purchase their yards? You have absolutely nothing to do with them; hell you don’t even feed one from their breedings.

[nc_pitbulls]

HaHaHaHaHa LOL all i can do is laugh.............

[LA_Headhunters]

Working "BULLDOGS" are just that "WORKING" Crossed or not. Crosses are meant to accentuate the blood (i.e. Jeep/Redboy, Jocko/Redboy, Stompanato/Boomerang, Eli/Bolio) alot of newer lines come from these crosses(i.e. Tab dogs, GRCH Yellow dogs, L.G. Dogs and Boyles dogs) and work real well when bred back to each other or crossed with other lines creating better"BULLDOGS" and that's the point!!!!! Other than that all the famous crosses go back to some what of a common bloodline or ancestry that make them "click" so well and the rest is Bulldog history.

[miakoda]

texas....keep up the good work! couldn't say things better myself. ;)

[Bravo]

My Mate got a tape from R.K when he went and visited some doggers over there,The purpose was to sell dogs in our home land,
My mate left the tape over there,He said the dogs were the worse he ever laid his eyes on.
This is fact not being an a88hole.
Bravo

[Marty]

My Mate got a tape from R.K when he went and visited some doggers over there,The purpose was to sell dogs in our home land,
My mate left the tape over there,He said the dogs were the worse he ever laid his eyes on.
This is fact not being an a88hole.
Bravo

LOL LOL LOL... Thanks for sharing man!!!!

"WHO" will love it!!!

[SWAMPER]

Best To Best If You Have 2 Of Exact Blood And They Are The Gamest 1s On The Farm They Will Be Bread,if 1 Is A Eli 1 Is A Butcherboy,but They Are The Gamest Then Thats What Id Breed ,but If You Inbreed Enough You Will Have To Out It A Lil Or Youll Get Dogs With 5 Eyes And 3 Legs,tails Growing Out The Middle Of Ther Back Leg Lol Jmho

[Marty]

Swamper... nice built bulldog, is that photo in our new photo gallery?

[CRG]

My Mate got a tape from R.K when he went and visited some doggers over there,The purpose was to sell dogs in our home land,
My mate left the tape over there,He said the dogs were the worse he ever laid his eyes on.
This is fact not being an a88hole.
Bravo"who" is going to really love this.

[carson3535]

thats one nice pic swamper

[SWAMPER]

If Its Not In The Gallery You Can Put Him There Hes Getting Old Lol

[Shon]

You can put him there in your own category if you want to :)

[NORTH]

isnt that a villi dog? correct me if im wrong.

[XxKonnectionsxX]

That does look like a Villi dog. Villi Rom II to be exact. That guy from Zinetti dogs owns him. I've spoken with him before. He's pretty cool. Unless swamper is that guy from Zinetti.

[NORTH]

yea ive spoke with him also cool guy.

[Saiyagin]

eventually you will have to cross out at some point to but back the hybrid vigor.

[babyboy20]

I have a9yr old bitch old time blood plumers,chavis,thudors,waters to name a few.I've cross and all pups had it all each litter. will have 1 more litter.

[mutt]

so texas whqt r u sayin?that its not good to breed tight bloodline u shoukd mix evry now and then?

[DEACON ROM]

:) i think ill just lmao, wait i just did that?:confused:

[LadyRampage]

You use the cross to strengthen your line, pure and simple. When linebreeding and inbreeding you eventually, as someone already said, start to lose traits or undesirable traits start to surface and using a cross, which should have the traits that have been lost, should strengthen your breeding program. Once you do your cross then you can go back into your original line with a dog that (hopefully) can start bringing those lost traits back into the mix..

*NOTE* Inbreeding and linebreed should only be done after you learned the dos, don'ts, outcomes (both good and bad), and advantages. In other words, if you don't know what your doing, don't do it.

[Classic]

You use the cross to strengthen your line, pure and simple. When linebreeding and inbreeding you eventually, as someone already said, start to lose traits or undesirable traits start to surface and using a cross, which should have the traits that have been lost, should strengthen your breeding program. Once you do your cross then you can go back into your original line with a dog that (hopefully) can start bringing those lost traits back into the mix..

*NOTE* Inbreeding and linebreed should only be done after you learned the dos, don'ts, outcomes (both good and bad), and advantages. In other words, if you don't know what your doing, don't do it.
That is an excellent post LadyRampage, but I would add not to breed your dog at all until you have doned all the research you can.

[NOVICE]

Just thought I'd interject somethin here. This whole thread was started by a guy advocating Mayfield bred dogs as "pure". The whole Mayfield line was Based on Tudors Nigger. Tudor was a guy who would breed anything he could get his hands on that performed. Just look behind Nigger and other Tudor dogs and you'll see he's got stuff from practically every line available at the time in there. Both line breeding and outcrossing have been proven useful tools for successful breeding.

[preme]

check your history alot of the best producing dogs were crosses

[hoovereport77]

i share the same point of view bro. i dont see any reason why some people would opt for scatter breeding. the percentage of getting a good dog is lower. even stp the winningest kennel said that they opt for linebreeding. dsk also does line breeding, southern kennels was able to produce great dogs off mayday through line breeding.

[Bobby Rooster]

I'll answer the op's question with a question.

What good is something "pure" if it can't do the job???

IMO todays lines have been crossed back and forth over the years that even if your "crossing" to a "different" line of four generations of different dogs go back to the 7 and 8 and 10 gen and they basically all go back to the same gene pool of a few dogs. But there are a few exceptions just not many.

[rooster]

I'll answer the op's question with a question.

What good is something "pure" if it can't do the job???

IMO todays lines have been crossed back and forth over the years that even if your "crossing" to a "different" line of four generations of different dogs go back to the 7 and 8 and 10 gen and they basically all go back to the same gene pool of a few dogs. But there are a few exceptions just not many.

correct. well understood.

[Colby'sPincher]

Well guys, may I give my opinion on that.
For those who still don't know, I'm French and as APBTs are banned in France, I'm breeding ASTs. All my dogs come from (not I wanted it but because there are almost no other bloodlines available) Xpert bloodline, starting with X-pert Torpedo, grandX3 son of Tudor's Black Jack. There peds may be different on 5 generations but from the 6th backward they are all from the same blood. Some dogs of their peds:
CH. Lloyd's Pilot
Feely's Jim
CH. Galvin's Pup
Farmer's Turk
CH. Colby's Paddy
Colby's Tige
Semme's Big Jack
Corcoran's Terrible Terry
Colby's Nick
Colby's Bob Tail Bob
GRCH. Colby's Pincher
Colby's Bunch
CH. Henry's Imported Richmond
CH. the Gas House Dogs
Colby's Pansy
Delihant Monkey
Corcoran's Biddy
Colby's Mag
CH. Duffy Jack
Napoleon Jack
CH. Watson Spider
CH. Racine Sam
Swingford King Paddy
Tudor's Black Jack
Fox Napoleon Bob
Clark's Tramp
CH. Billy Sunday
Delihant Crazy Kate
Delaney's Danger
Colby's Major
CH. Frisco Sport
CH. Rubel's Pilot
CH. Tudor's Fighting Peter
Maguire's Smuggler
CH. Ferguson's Centipede
CH. Seracy's Jeff
GR CH. Tudor's Black Jack Jr
CH. Corvino's Braddock
CH. Doyle's Dixie
CH. Brown's Tacoma Jack
CH. Corvino's Shorty
CH. Doyle's Tacoma Debudante
CH. TacomaJack's Suzie
CH. Kane's Tacoma Blaze
CH. Doyle's Honey
CH. Doyle's Tacoma Dispatcher I
CH. Tacoma Jack's Replica
Clark's Tramp Boy
Colby's Twister
And many more. You all know most of these dogs and no need to list their victories, you probably all know them too.
I will start with one question : to what extent can you say that those CH. and GR. CH. were "pure"? All those dogs can be found in most APBTs peds, so can't we say that the APBT family remained "pure" in a way (although it grew) because most modern dogs come from them?
I will continue with another question : Have some of you studied canine genetics? To what extent does inbreeding reinforce useful traits and to what extent does it bring genetic illnesses? Would you consider crossing your sons with your daughters just because you might think your are exceptional?
3rd questions : why could it be so bad to cross two dogs from different lines to get the best of both mingled in one perfect beast?
4th question : would you say a dog is pure because inbred for 5 generations, although before it is the world most mixed of curs that ever lived?
Well lads, I didn't give my opinion, I know, but your answers will be more than interesting.
Have a nice day.
C'sP

[oldslowblue]

My question is to the breeders that are crossing with EVERYTHING in sight....why dont you get a PURE bloodline instead of crossing everything you get your hands on?.....i know yall will prolly say somthing like..."get the best of the bloodlines" or somthing to that effect.....YEAH...you may come out with a BAD A** dog but where has the consistency gone....ROCKET LAUNCHED out the window...... whats the use of haveing this "GREAT" dog if you cant reproduce it?...... thats what breeders have strived for the last 150 years ...bred for consistency .....but now adays....the bloodlines have become tarnished in a matter of 15 years....what DOGMEN strived for has been destroyed.........i am just saying this cause one day the GAMEDOG as I know it will disappear is this Crossing SH*T keeps going on

You can try, to breed however you want to. I own brood and battle cross alike, but what it all boils down to, is the fact that these dogs are individuals. It's all a crap shoot, no matter how tight, how loose. POINT BLANK PERIOD. If there was a special formula involved, everybody would have bitches producing like honeybunch. They're good brood ones, and good battle cross'd ones to. Truth is, no one really knows what will work, until you do it. I know there are some gene factors involving, but truth be told it's all up to how the gene's mix and combine during a particular breeding. You may do a breeding and 8 out of 8 pus are grand slam aces. Kool right, so you base your yard around that bitch, and that stud and for 8 years straight, you repeat that breeding, and never get a dog of the first litters caliber. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Rebs]

Extract from .." The Rottweiler" by Richard F Stratton.

".... Most pedigrees go back three generations, & these are all you need to concern yourself with. Ancestors beyond the third generation have little influence on your dog......."

[Colby'sPincher]

Extract from .." The Rottweiler" by Richard F Stratton.

".... Most pedigrees go back three generations, & these are all you need to concern yourself with. Ancestors beyond the third generation have little influence on your dog......."

As far as I remember, somebody on this forum said that Stratton was useless....I didn't think so before but...I do not agree with his saying ancestors beyond the third generation have little influence on the dog. Anyway lots of Rottie owners must believe him and this why there are so many Rot'curs, stupid and disgraceful!!

[rooster]

Extract from .." The Rottweiler" by Richard F Stratton.

".... Most pedigrees go back three generations, & these are all you need to concern yourself with. Ancestors beyond the third generation have little influence on your dog......."

so we can create another breed of dog as good as an APBT in 3 generations ?:D

[rooster]

As far as I remember, somebody on this forum said that Stratton was useless....I didn't think so before but...I do not agree with his saying ancestors beyond the third generation have little influence on the dog. Anyway lots of Rottie owners must believe him and this why there are so many Rot'curs, stupid and disgraceful!!

i said that and I can't remember why now, but I remember saying it I think. Maybe that makes me stupid lol

[TripleJ]

I do not agree with that 3rd gen bull $&#t. Thats like saying if you have a 5 gen ped that is just down from a few dogs those dogs wont influince you strain. hell I had some that were clones of there parents and acted just like them of course they were brother sister, dady doughter and so on. But they all looked the same and acted the same. Even the same colors every litter. J

[Colby'sPincher]

i said that and I can't remember why now, but I remember saying it I think. Maybe that makes me stupid lol

You said that after I quoted Stratton saying that there may be no terrier blood at all in APBT and other SBT or AST. This does not make you stupid at all Rooster. The aim of a forum is to speak up one's mind and to discuss different topics/points of view/ideas as far as people can accept others' ideas and as far as all can be justified.
I found Stratton's work really interesting to some level but then I grew up a bit and did my own research, got my own opinions...But now that I read his bu.....t about Rotties, I do think you were right...to some extent.:D

[jeeperino]

Of course it matters beyond the 3rd generation...especially if selective family breeding is used. The traits from a dog in the 4th gen may not be obvious, but the dogs in the 3rd,2nd & 1st generation have to come from somewhere obviously. It would be absurd to think the traits arent passed down from dogs past the 4th generation especially if breeding within a specific family or off 1 specific dog.

Look at this pedigree and see why Bolio dogs still to this day throw exceptional dogs several generations down from the legend himself.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=43

Now if u are talking scatter bred dogs, some genes may be dominant over others and its much harder to pinpoint the specific genes you are looking for. Wth selective breeding thru multiple generations you still may not get what you are looking for.

Also, a dog is not scientificaly considered "inbred" until many many generations of inbreeding has occured. Im not sure exactly how many but its an absurd number much higher than 10 gens.

[mac 11]

Would you consider crossing your sons with your daughters just because you might think your are exceptional?
3rd questions : why could it be so bad to cross two dogs from different lines to get the best of both mingled in one perfect beast?
4th question : would you say a dog is pure because inbred for 5 generations, although before it is the world most mixed of curs that ever lived?
Well lads, I didn't give my opinion, I know, but your answers will be more than interesting.
Have a nice day.
C'sP

first off human and canine genetics are different. Its not nessacarily bad to outcross the ? was why do it. You have to first look at the line itself and see what its lacking. If its not lacking then why outcross in other words if it aint broke don't fix it. Its not bad to breed two diffrent lines its just a bigger gamble, you have so many different genes that get jumble and you don't know what to expect. As far as the whole 3 generation thing IMO its true and if not up to the 4th gen at the most that you will still see recessive traits. Anything further than the 4th I think the only thing that might still be retained is color, depending on the line of dogs. And yes if you do have a inbred 5 gen dog thats pure because the only traits you will see in that dog are from that 5 gen ped, even if they were mixed before hand once you mix something consistantly that will become its pure form.

[Colby'sPincher]

Thanks Mac 11 for your answers.

[rayne_terror03]

most all gamebred lines go back to the same dogs ie. your eli stuff all goes back to dibo or so they put in the peds. with the exception of the colby and ofrn stuff it all goes back to the same stuff. the fact of the matter is that we really dont know what is what cause people fell out and changed peds and we dont know if any of these dogs are bred the way said take for instance GRCH Art and Chinaman's sire are bred just alike just Eli Jr. to littermate bitches. so why is the majority of Art's offspring buckskin(brown,red whatever you call it) and the majority of Chinaman stuff is black? we dont know if any of these so called families are bred like said the only men that know are in the grave and we cant ask them till we get to that big kennel in the sky! LOL! with that said have you all read the Pelican Brief article talking about the Henry dogs? Tudor was quoted as saying that the Henry dogs were the best her ever owned and they were the fight craziest dogs he ever seen and the best bitch to ever wear a collar was a lil black bitch called Tudor's Star. Tudor was also quoted as saying that he bred his gamedogs to his gamedogs, so what does that tell you? outcrossing is a necessary act for any breeder because every dog we own today is outcrossed, its just what works or not. you start your family breeding off the dogs that are best in your yard and what you consider the best of your stock. so stop pedigree reading and start paying attention to your dogs, cause it dont matter if they dont have a single dog thats the same in a ped if they are what they are supposed to be you'll get what you want!

[Iverson's Pits]

I stopped reading after a while...but I think that if the original poster would use the term TIGHT instead of PURE...it would make more sense and hold a little more weight within the debate. For purposes of production consistancy, reliability, and predictability (all things a good breeding program should have)...I believe that breedings should MOST OFTEN be made within your particular strains of blood. That, of course, assumes that your particular strains of blood are worth a damn.

[PurePit19]

No matter how a dog is bred, its only as good as the hands that feed it. There are a few kennels out there that have a yard full of good dogs, but most people credit the line and not the owner. Many of us on this board have bought dogs from above average breeders and what is it that they tell about the pup you just bought. The good breeders tell you how your dog will act, weather it be a late bloomer, high strung, lazy, good mouth, good air, good drive or even a stubborn attitude. They have this knowledge because they know the individual dogs they breed, to many so called breeders focus on just a win record or paper work. The highest percentage line come from breeders who know the real traits of their stock, breeding best to best doesn't mean best performance to best performance, i think it means best dog to best dog. Meaning personality, attitude, structure, awareness, eagerness, and willingness. I feel that all this plays a major role in producing all around bulldogs, having parents that have a good amount of all these traits have a better chance of producing high caliber dogs when in the right hands.

[rooster]

No matter how a dog is bred, its only as good as the hands that feed it. There are a few kennels out there that have a yard full of good dogs, but most people credit the line and not the owner. Many of us on this board have bought dogs from above average breeders and what is it that they tell about the pup you just bought. The good breeders tell you how your dog will act, weather it be a late bloomer, high strung, lazy, good mouth, good air, good drive or even a stubborn attitude. They have this knowledge because they know the individual dogs they breed, to many so called breeders focus on just a win record or paper work. The highest percentage line come from breeders who know the real traits of their stock, breeding best to best doesn't mean best performance to best performance, i think it means best dog to best dog. Meaning personality, attitude, structure, awareness, eagerness, and willingness. I feel that all this plays a major role in producing all around bulldogs, having parents that have a good amount of all these traits have a better chance of producing high caliber dogs when in the right hands.

yes and how well those dogs gel together. Plus how they are conditioned and schooled.
Many a good dog wasted by being rolled too early for example. Then most will blame the breeding not themselves for mis-handling the dog.

[rooster]

You said that after I quoted Stratton saying that there may be no terrier blood at all in APBT and other SBT or AST. This does not make you stupid at all Rooster. The aim of a forum is to speak up one's mind and to discuss different topics/points of view/ideas as far as people can accept others' ideas and as far as all can be justified.
I found Stratton's work really interesting to some level but then I grew up a bit and did my own research, got my own opinions...But now that I read his bu.....t about Rotties, I do think you were right...to some extent.:D

Stratton had good timing. He wrote his first books and timed the market right. That is how he got his name. He was one of the first to write a book of that style. Not keen on them and have been telling people that for years, but he is like a god to most people, and they get mad if you attack his work. There are a few other things I am not keen on in his books, but won't mention them as it would not a be a good idea in the present anti-apbt climate around the world.

Anyway thanks!

[Colby'sPincher]

No matter how a dog is bred, its only as good as the hands that feed it. There are a few kennels out there that have a yard full of good dogs, but most people credit the line and not the owner. Many of us on this board have bought dogs from above average breeders and what is it that they tell about the pup you just bought. The good breeders tell you how your dog will act, weather it be a late bloomer, high strung, lazy, good mouth, good air, good drive or even a stubborn attitude. They have this knowledge because they know the individual dogs they breed, to many so called breeders focus on just a win record or paper work. The highest percentage line come from breeders who know the real traits of their stock, breeding best to best doesn't mean best performance to best performance, i think it means best dog to best dog. Meaning personality, attitude, structure, awareness, eagerness, and willingness. I feel that all this plays a major role in producing all around bulldogs, having parents that have a good amount of all these traits have a better chance of producing high caliber dogs when in the right hands.

I 100% agree with you!

[Colby'sPincher]

yes and how well those dogs gel together. Plus how they are conditioned and schooled.
Many a good dog wasted by being rolled to early for example. Then most will blame the breeding not themselves for mis-handling the dog.

Exactly the same as I wrote regarding PurePit19 post : I totally agree with you.

[hebrew]

Just look at how tight Redboy was breed/inbreed. Inbreeding Redboy brings Yellow John. Continuing to breed the redboy line with out crossing it was no longer critical. The blood is tigtht then you know it. Now breed it out to a dog who is also inbred from a diffrent yet refined family of dogs.

[M&M kennel]

My question is to the breeders that are crossing with EVERYTHING in sight....why dont you get a PURE bloodline instead of crossing everything you get your hands on?.....i know yall will prolly say somthing like..."get the best of the bloodlines" or somthing to that effect.....YEAH...you may come out with a BAD A** dog but where has the consistency gone....ROCKET LAUNCHED out the window...... whats the use of haveing this "GREAT" dog if you cant reproduce it?...... thats what breeders have strived for the last 150 years ...bred for consistency .....but now adays....the bloodlines have become tarnished in a matter of 15 years....what DOGMEN strived for has been destroyed.........i am just saying this cause one day the GAMEDOG as I know it will disappear is this Crossing SH*T keeps going on
Iam with that thats why yard is base off of http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=263955

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=77378

[ANCHOR]

why buy and stay with a pure bloodline if it dont work for you. what, just cull it and go with someone elses pure bloodline only to get the same result. go back far enough and they are not so pure as some would put it. they all started somewhere didnt they? best to best infact.
well if you have the time and understanding you too can start with best to best and build on that, adding exactly what you want in those dogs. some years down the track it too will be concidered a pure bloodline. if people look at that bloodline and go back quite a few gens they will see where it come from and proberly say it isnt a pure bloodline just like you can say for the rest of them if you go back far enough. understand what a bloodline is and how a bloodline is created first.