Tudors Dibo The Ultimate Bully!!

[renegadepit]

I wonder if I am the only one that thinks this. But when I look at pics of DIBO he looks like a modern day Bully. Not like the fit thinner game dogs of today (or of that time). I know he was a great producer of game dogs and was game himself. Does anyone know what his weight was during his prime? How did he look so big and bully (He looks more Bully than a RE dog) when his ancestors (Feeley line) were smaller looking dogs? Stratton described Dibo dogs of having a "double jointed hock" similar to Bully dogs of today. Look at Dibo's head and body structure? A Bully before his time!!
Any thoughts on this?

[Searcy Jeff]

I know what you are trying to say but I disagree.

[dogged]

To me, there's a big difference between a dog bred for work that happens to turn out large and bully-ish and a dog bred only to be "big and bully." Just my .02.

[jr Pit Guy]

Tudor's Dibo was a three time winner at 44 lbs. He wasn't big, nor was he bully.


Interesting tidbit: his original name was "Dumbo". Earl changed it to "Dibo".

[renegadepit]

Tudor's Dibo was a three time winner at 44 lbs. He wasn't big, nor was he bully.


Interesting tidbit: his original name was "Dumbo". Earl changed it to "Dibo".I knew about the DUMBO thing from Strattons book. But I couldn't find anything on weight? Where did you get that stat from?

[redripper]

He looks a little more stocky than you would expect, but nothing like the RE type dogs of today. He was, as was said earlier a dog that was bred to work and just happened to be stocky. He still looked trim and his legs were of a functional length...thus not like todays bullies...At most he looks a bit like a staffy, but he doesn't aproach bullyness...just my opinion on the matter.

[YAHHOOO]

I think that he has a big head for his body and maybe that is where you got your conclusion from. Besides that I dont see much bully there.

[jay_cook_79]

http://www.adbadog.com/thumbimg.asp?i=Header Photos/Frame_15a.jpg&w=250&h450 (http://www.adbadog.com/uploads/Header%20Photos/Frame_15a.jpg)


Tudor's "Jeff"

[jay_cook_79]

http://www.adbadog.com/thumbimg.asp?i=Header Photos/Frame_15a.jpg&w=250&h450 (http://www.adbadog.com/uploads/Header%20Photos/Frame_15a.jpg)


Tudor's "Jeff"
also looks like a bully

[Red Cocaine]

I think I read somewhere that Tudor favored "stockyer" dogs. I also have herd it said from some who knew Tudor in his older age that Tudor *said* one should cross in EB to add gameness.

But this is Dibo's (pronounced DIE-BO) story

The Dibo line descended from the inbred Lloyd's Pilot ( Pilot was bred at the "Red Lion Inn" in Birmingham, England and imported by Charles "Cockney Charlie" Lloyd, of Manhattan, New York City ) strain of Con Feeley of Chicago which was then selectively bred by Joe Corvino, also of Chicago and resulted in 2 key dogs, Corvino's Gimp ( Dibo's Great-Grandsire) and his litter brother Corvino's Shorty. Dibo also had some influence from the powerful strain of Frank Henry of Marietta, Ohio whose blood centered around his "Richmond" dog which was imported from Wolverhampton, England. This Richmond blood was blended with Lloyd's Pilot blood of W.T. Delihant and great aces such as Swineford's Ch King Paddy, Henry's Ch Black Brandy, Tudor's Gr Ch Black Jack and his much-feared son Peterson's Gr Ch Black Jack, Jr. resulted. Gr Ch Black Jack, Jr. was out of Cunningham's Nellie, a pure Henry bitch descended from Richmond. A daughter of Gr Ch Black Jack, Jr. was then bred to the imported Irish "Old Family" gamedog Bill Shipley's Red Jerry owned by Shipley of Texas who maintained a breeding partnership with Irishman Jim Corcoran. This breeding yielded the bitch Tudor's Goldie, a devastating pit dog which Joe Corvino bought from Earl Tudor and incorporated into his breeding program, which ultimately resulted in Dibo.
Dibo's dam was Ed Ritcheson's Bambi. Bambi, also known as Heinzl's Bambi, was sired by Ritcheson's Spike and she was out of Ritcheson's Spotty. A novice by the name of W. D. Smith acquired Bambi and made the breeding to Wiz Hubbard's Bounce. Smith eventually sold Dibo, as a pup, to a man named Jensen who only wanted a pet for his son. The young boy named his pet Dumbo, but tired of him and wished for a collie, as Lassie was popular at that time. Jensen then contacted Mr. Heinzl in regard to trading Dumbo for a collie pup. Howard Heinzl knew Bounce and Bambi were good individuals, but still had his doubts as one of Bounce's sisters were questionable, and Bambi was cold. The trade was made and Dumbo went home with Howard Heinzl and stayed, where he would follow Mr. Heinzl and stayed out of the reach of the other chained dogs on the yard for about two years.

Earl Tudor visited Heinzl's yard and took a liking to Dumbo. Mr. Heinzl offered Mr. Tudor any dog on his yard, trying to convince him to purchase a good dog. In spite of everything, Tudor took Dumbo home and changed his name to Dibo. Dibo was stolen shortly after and was sold to a black restaurant owner, who named him Runt, Frank Ferris later changed all the incorrect papers. The pup wouldn't hit a lick until it was 2 1/2 years old, but when it did, it was an ace dog from that day forward! Floyd Boudreaux and William Burley owned a good brindle dog named Buzz on halves. They had to pull this pup off Buzz in :18 minutes as he wrecked Buzz in short order. Floyd matched him at 39 lbs. into a 40 lb. dog and won the contest in style and short order. He used his dad's Man dog 6 weeks later and matched into Gaboon Trahan and his highly regarded Country Boy dog, gave him a pound and beat him in :33 minutes. Tudor got Dibo back from the gentleman and by the age of four, Dibo had finally turned on and eventually became a three time winner at 44 lbs. His performance record is minute in comparison to his ability to produce.



He's sired:
Tudor's White Rock 4X winner Tudor's Spike 4X winner
Tudor's Jeff 3X winner Trahan's Blackie 3X winner
McCraw's Snowball Harrel's Topper 5X winner
Heinzl's Polly Ed Crenshaw's Buck
Edward's Sam Carver's Cracker
Start (Haye's) Cry Baby 4X winner Boudreaux' Blind Billyand the list goes on.

[CrazyK9]

I wouldn't dare go so far as to say "bully" but Dibo and Jeff were definitely stocky/Staff looking. So were/are other gamebred dogs; like Giroux' Booger, Ross' Red Devil, Honeycutt's Slingshot, etc.

Because looks don't matter when breeding performance dogs, you can end up with all sorts of weird looking creatures, lol.

Also, remember, pictures can be deceiving...

[ABK]

IMO they don't look like bullies to me. Their legs are too long, as are their muzzles. Nor are their chests wide enough & their heads aren't round enough. Further, their weights are in the traditional range of about 45 lbs.

JMHO ...

[renegadepit]

http://www.adbadog.com/thumbimg.asp?i=Header Photos/Frame_15a.jpg&w=250&h450 (http://www.adbadog.com/uploads/Header%20Photos/Frame_15a.jpg)


Tudor's "Jeff"
also looks like a bully

I heard of Tudor's Jeff but never seen a picture of him. Your right he looked like a Bully!

[renegadepit]

Here are side comparisons of Dibo and a Bully.
Here is a side shot of DIBO which is my fav pic of him. Here is a side shot of Gottiline Monster (BULLY)
What are your opinions? Obviously Dibo is more in leaner. Look at the gut area of him. Compared to the Bully. But could that just be because he was game and kept in shape? Whereas the Bully was not. What if Dibo was just an inhouse dog that ate whatever and whenever he wanted? What if the BULLY was kept in shape?

Dibo gets much deserved respect because what he did and his ability to produce good dogs. I've seen pics of some of his offspring like "Spike", and they were also head turners!

[Old Timer]

Why is it that everyone is always wanting to compare bulldogs to them things,i honestly don't understand it.now we are going so far as to take one of the better dogs in history and compare him with a mongrel dog.this stuff makes my blood boil,true he looks larger but he wasn't all that large when you seen him in person.and i caan 100% guarentee you he was not a bully,he was 100% bulldog in every sense of the word,would i rank him as best? no but he was damn good.

I don't know if you own bullys or not,but don't go comparing tried and true gamedogs to them things.it just makes my blood boil.if you have bullys just accept the fact you have mongrels and treat them right.they are not bulldogs and please quit trying to compare them to bulldogs.

[ABK]

I agree Old Timer.

Again, to me Dibo looks nothing like Monster. Monster is short, squatter, fatter, heavier shouldered, heavier boned, more big headed & more short muzzled. The two just don't compare.

Are their varince in pit bulls? Sure. Some are tall & lean & some are shorter & stockier. But no short & stocky pit bull I have seen could ever be mistaken for a bully. No matter how you cut it, bullies are just horses of a different color.

renegade, just love your bullies for what they are - bullies. With all due respect, they are not purebred pit bulls, nor will they ever be purebred pit bulls, no matter how much you would like to convince people otherwise.

[renegadepit]

Dibo gets much deserved respect because what he did and his ability to produce good dogs. I've seen pics of some of his offspring like "Spike", and they were also head turners![/QUOTE]
My quote from ealier.

No disrespect. Just comparing him to other dogs. IMO he has a look that most dogs in his time did not have. I thought that the 1st time I opened Strattons book and looked at all the photos of old time dogs. If someone had a dog today that looked like Dibo, They'd get shitted on by the game dog community. Because he doesn't look like the game dogs of today. Calling him a mongrel, Staff, cur, etc. Obviously Dibo gets respect because who he was and what he did.

[frenchie1936]

i agree that you can end up with various inconsistencies as far as weight and size. and if we were to nit pick the whole situation, Dibo doesn't really fit the conformation standard (as of today's). nor do i think he did back then. but his gameness was never in doubt nor do i think Tudor really bred for conformation. he bred for what was the most desirable trait and got exactly that. game. as for the looks of a certain dog, what is the intrigue here? sure we all have certain color patterns we may like, but i personally think we all who breed with some sort of ethics, don't breed for color or size. i personally prefer brindles. my first game bred was a gorgeous brindle. but when you breed for traits other than gameness, you move into a whole different arena. JMO. :)

[miakoda]

Here are side comparisons of Dibo and a Bully.
Here is a side shot of DIBO which is my fav pic of him. Here is a side shot of Gottiline Monster (BULLY)
What are your opinions? Obviously Dibo is more in leaner. Look at the gut area of him. Compared to the Bully. But could that just be because he was game and kept in shape? Whereas the Bully was not. What if Dibo was just an inhouse dog that ate whatever and whenever he wanted? What if the BULLY was kept in shape?

Dibo gets much deserved respect because what he did and his ability to produce good dogs. I've seen pics of some of his offspring like "Spike", and they were also head turners!
Those dogs look nothing alike. Why are you so persistent to justify the existence of mixed breed dogs being passed off as "APBTs"?

And by the way, just because an apple and an orange are both fruit doesn't mean they are the same. ;)

[renegadepit]

By the time I finished typing there were 2 more posts. Like I said earlier.
Dibo gets much deserved respect because what he did and his ability to produce good dogs. I've seen pics of some of his offspring like "Spike", and they were also head turners![/QUOTE]My quote from ealier.

No disrespect. Just comparing him to other dogs. Not saying he's identical to Monster just that DIBO has a bully look to him. IMO he has a look that most dogs in his time did not have. I thought that the 1st time I opened Strattons book and looked at all the photos of old time dogs. If someone had a dog today that looked like Dibo, They'd get shitted on by the game dog community. Because he doesn't look like the game dogs of today. Calling him a mongrel, Staff, cur, etc. Obviously Dibo gets respect because who he was and what he did.

[frenchie1936]

Those dogs look nothing alike. Why are you so persistent to justify the existence of mixed breed dogs being passed off as "APBTs"?

And by the way, just because an apple and an orange are both fruit doesn't mean they are the same. ;)

just curious, but did you know they have gentically modified trees that grow three different kinds of fruit? true, but j/k. i do however think it is absolutely BLASPHEMOUS to do something so absurd and horrific as to compare any true game dog to some mixed breed cur such as an american bully. wtf is the matter with you? seriously. i don't disagree with peoples choice of dog, but don't compare two things that are not the same. for the love of god, especially not here genious. that sh*t won't fly for very long.

[NcPrisonGuard]

Then why do you seem so hell bent one comparing Dibo to a bully? Why did you even start this thread? I'd ease up on the wtf's the matter with Mia.. barking up the wrong tree there bo..



i do however think it is absolutely BLASPHEMOUS to do something so absurd and horrific as to compare any true game dog to some mixed breed cur such as an american bully..

[ABK]

If someone had a dog today that looked like Dibo, They'd get shitted on by the game dog community. Because he doesn't look like the game dogs of today...That is absolutely wrong. I have a female who does not really look like the dogs of today & used to have a dog who would be considered a "bully" (sort of) by today's fanciers. I have posted both of their pics here several times & not once did I ever get "shitted on" by ANYONE in the game dog community. In fact, I got compliments on BOTH dogs.

It all comes down to what you do are breeding for. If you breed for looks, yeah, you're going to get dumped on. But if you're breeding for performance & you happen to get a less than standard dog, folks don't really care as long as the dog is true to the breed.

[jr Pit Guy]

He was shorter and wider than average. His name was Duke, and I bragged on him all of the time. No one here, and no one who met him in person ever ragged on him or compared him to a bully. Why? Because he wasn't some mixed breed mutt. Also, because his parents were bred for working ability, not color, size, money, or any other reason that those mutts came about.


http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/6/9/1/5/Duke.jpg

Not all game bred dogs fit conformation standards, but I've never seen one that looked like an English Bulldog or a Dogue De Bourdeaux. There is no comparison, and like mentioned before, pics can be deceiving. Did you ever see Dibo in person, or are you going off of old pictures?

[simms]

Then why do you seem so hell bent one comparing Dibo to a bully? Why did you even start this thread? I'd ease up on the wtf's the matter with Mia.. barking up the wrong tree there bo..
I dont think this is meant for Mia.....think there may be some confusion. :)

[simms]

He was shorter and wider than average. His name was Duke, and I bragged on him all of the time. No one here, and no one who met him in person ever ragged on him or compared him to a bully. Why? Because he wasn't some mixed breed mutt. Also, because his parents were bred for working ability, not color, size, money, or any other reason that those mutts came about.


http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/6/9/1/5/Duke.jpg

Not all game bred dogs fit conformation standards, but I've never seen one that looked like an English Bulldog or a Dogue De Bourdeaux. There is no comparison, and like mentioned before, pics can be deceiving. Did you ever see Dibo in person, or are you going off of old pictures?
I've had a couple that came about looking like hounds.

[miakoda]

I've had a couple that came about looking like hounds.
LOL. I had bought Shaker from a very reputable owner/breeder in FL and I swear that at first I had been sold a red bone coonhound. His ears were huge and floppy and he was so lanky. He stayed somewhat lanky but a crappy will-never-do-again crop job "fixed" the ear issue.

And I had someone insist that Savage was a chocolate Lab and that I was wrong in that he was an APBT. :rolleyes:

[ABK]

lmao ... I once told some unsavory characters who approached me while I was walking Smokey that she was a Lab mix & they believed me. She has some awfully houndy ears!

Futher, she throws pups w/ crazy ears. On her pups I've seen button ears, bat ears & airplane ears, but she never has thrown hound ears like hers. (thank goodness!)

[renegadepit]

I agree with the comment that the APBT comes in all different shapes and sizes. I've owned game stock before I bought my Blue dog who is diffently not bully (Dibo looks more bully than him) I've posted several pictures of him on here and you could see for yourself more UKC style.
All the pits I owned were all different. I'm sure there are still die hard pit men that could give a rats ass on what the dog looks like. All of my dogs were papered. My Blue is the only one that was dual reg ADBA, UKC. I bought all my dogs on appearance, when looking at the litter I had to make a pick. My first was a female tan/ brown Brindle. My 2nd was a tan Colby dog very muscular, not game and a little taller than my current dog , my blue has more game than that dog. My 3rd was a Blond tightly bred Perles "Deadlift" (very game, so game I wouldn't put that dog near any dog) she was on the shorter side. But because the dogs were so different in everything from personality, drive, structure, etc is why I love the breed. Now I own a Blue. All of them were different. I didn't realize there was such a HATRED and controversy towards blues until I found this site. Like DIBO, All where different IMO All are pits.

[Red Cocaine]

Here's another pic of Dibo....i think...

http://www.registerofmerit.com/forums/imagehosting/620472cee2d7d4a3.jpg

[Marty]

Here's another pic of Dibo....i think...

http://www.registerofmerit.com/forums/imagehosting/620472cee2d7d4a3.jpgDibo was a male Lmao ;)

[frenchie1936]

um... yeah some confusion there.was certainly not talking to mia about the whole wtf thing. and i assure you i don't need someone to tell me when they misconstrue something that i am barking up the wrong tree. and if that was the case, i'm sure it would've been dealt with in a more diplomatic way.

[jr Pit Guy]

Here's another pic of Dibo....i think...

http://www.registerofmerit.com/forums/imagehosting/620472cee2d7d4a3.jpg
I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be his littermate sister "Langham's Lil", I've seen the pic before.

[Red Cocaine]

Dibo was a male Lmao ;)LMFAO…. I didn’t even see the tits till you said that…… LAMS hahahahaha….

[Marty]

LMFAO…. I didn’t even see the tits till you said that…… LAMS hahahahaha…. Got to look under the hood son :D

[jr Pit Guy]

Got to look under the hood son :D
HAHAHAHA! I'm rolling! Sorry, but that's too funny.

[Pipbull]

Regarding the comment from CrazyK9:
Because looks don't matter when breeding performance dogs, you can end up with all sorts of weird looking creatures, lol.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but I may be misunderstanding you. IMO, dogs should not be bred based solely on looks, but if you're talking conformation, then it is vital to the breed. I am not talking about conformation in the showing aspect alone, I am talking about true conformation. That a dog is built a certain way (thus looking a certain way) in order to perform as best as it can. This is why the APBT has such a wide variation to it's standard, because it is a performance bred dog. I think a lot of game dog breeders over look this part in breeding programs, which is why some of the dogs look so weird. I'm not saying that they are all bad, since there's got to be something good about them to be bred, but by filtering a breeding program a lot more and focusing on more than gameness, I believe that the dog would be better as a whole. I'm not sure if I'm being clear or not, I'm just saying that a lot of times, they seem good, but imagine how much better they could be if you improved on the dogs physically.

It can be especially tricky in our breed because of their high pain threshold to not show how bad they are because of structural faults. Not to mention a game dog wouldn't let something like hip dysplasia slow them down.

[renegadepit]

Your blue dog is not an APBT, not matter how many registries he's got papers with,

WHAT? lol
Maybe not by ADBA conformation standards.
But to a UKC Judge!!!

[Pipbull]

I'll stay on topic

[jr Pit Guy]

Oh no, I see where this is going. :(


Before it does, Renegade, in your defense, have you won any conformation shows with him, or at least participated? What was the judges comments? Is there a conformation judge on here that may want to comment before this becomes one of "those" threads?

[simms]

Let's keep the bashing and trashing to a minummummmmmm. Stay on topic!

[jr Pit Guy]

Let's keep the bashing and trashing to a minummummmmmm. Stay on topic!
Agreed. Too many threads have been ruined lately by stuff that should have been PMed.

[Marty]

Oh no, I see where this is going. :(
Is there a conformation judge on here that may want to comment before this becomes one of "those" threads?Yes... as far as ADBA standards it want fly, sorry

[Pipbull]

sorry about my comments, but the topic of the thread seemed to me to say that Dibo looked bully and he was an APBT, so the bully dogs around today can be too. I just flat out don't agree with that. Dibo looks stocky, but nothing like a bully. Plus, there are no 40 lb bullys out there.

If I misunderstood the topic, sorry, but restating the point that Dibo's bulliness was excused by his merits seemed like what I previously stated. Just debating here, sorry if it came out harsh. But the reason I used the blue dog in my posts is because that's the example that was being compared. The dog could have been red, brown, black or whatever color, and my response would have been the same. Not trying to blue bash or bully bash. Renegade, you can PM me if you want. I took out the parts that weren't relevent.

[CrazyK9]

Because looks don't matter when breeding performance dogs, you can end up with all sorts of weird looking creatures, lol.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but I may be misunderstanding you. IMO, dogs should not be bred based solely on looks, but if you're talking conformation, then it is vital to the breed. I am not talking about conformation in the showing aspect alone, I am talking about true conformation. That a dog is built a certain way (thus looking a certain way) in order to perform as best as it can. This is why the APBT has such a wide variation to it's standard, because it is a performance bred dog. I think a lot of game dog breeders over look this part in breeding programs, which is why some of the dogs look so weird. I'm not saying that they are all bad, since there's got to be something good about them to be bred, but by filtering a breeding program a lot more and focusing on more than gameness, I believe that the dog would be better as a whole. I'm not sure if I'm being clear or not, I'm just saying that a lot of times, they seem good, but imagine how much better they could be if you improved on the dogs physically.

It can be especially tricky in our breed because of their high pain threshold to not show how bad they are because of structural faults. Not to mention a game dog wouldn't let something like hip dysplasia slow them down.

If conformation truely mattered, we wouldn't have dogs like this in so many of our pedigrees today...

http://www.antohinkennels.com/preview/hunterred.jpg

http://www.antohinkennels.com/preview/1eelliott%20%20six%20bits%20.jpg


But that's beside the point.....



Renegade, the difference between Dibo and Bullies is tremendous! Their purposes are complete opposites. You're completely wrong about somone today owning Dibo and getting hated on. His looks aren't what matters, it is his ability as a pit dog and stud. The same goes for all APBTs.

As for your dog, I don't consider him a bully at all. He looks like an AmStaff/Pit Bull, bred to conform to AKC/UKC standards. There's nothing wrong with that... but don't call him an APBT because he's not unless he's gamebred. I don't care what his papers say. Now, you can think I'm judging him because he's blue but that is not the whole truth. His entire body screams Staff. He's heavy boned, has no tuck, has a very typical head piece for UKC "pits," has a very thick neck ...and, yes, on top of all that, he is blue.

No one here is going to hate on you or your dog for him being what he is (and if they do, they're immature and close-minded) BUT comparing your dog to a true APBT, that will get you in trouble and fast.

[Pipbull]

If conformation truely mattered, we wouldn't have dogs like this in so many of our pedigrees today...

http://www.antohinkennels.com/preview/hunterred.jpg

http://www.antohinkennels.com/preview/1eelliott%20%20six%20bits%20.jpg


But that's beside the point.....




Not besides the point at all, if standard is what's being discussed. One look at those dogs and you can see why hip dysplasia is so prevelent in our breed. I'm more about having a sound dog. Pit performance shouldn't negate bad genes from being passed, and if it does to the breeder, than the offspring that display the same poor structure should be culled. You can't honestly tell me that if you took those same dogs and (hypothetically) corrected the structural faults they have would not make them better dogs. And if you're in it for bettering the breed as a whole, then that's why it's important.

[CrazyK9]

Not besides the point at all, if standard is what's being discussed. One look at those dogs and you can see why hip dysplasia is so prevelent in our breed. I'm more about having a sound dog. Pit performance shouldn't negate bad genes from being passed, and if it does to the breeder, than the offspring that display the same poor structure should be culled. You can't honestly tell me that if you took those same dogs and (hypothetically) corrected the structural faults they have would not make them better dogs. And if you're in it for bettering the breed as a whole, then that's why it's important.
Is this thread about the standard though? I don't want to get too off-topic but this could be an interesting discussion.

I don't know what effects bow-leggedness (is that a word? lol) or extremely wide chests (among other things) would have on a dog so I can't say for sure that they would be better performers if they were conformationally correct.
I'd certainly like to hear from people who have experience with dogs that had/have many structural faults.

Personally, I feel the same as you do. I would cull a dog that looked like that ...unless it were an absolute ace, then I'd breed to a bitch of better structure, see how the pups turned out, and go from there.
However, my point was that throughout history, if a dog was a good producer and/or performer, its genes would be passed on, regardless of its looks. Hunter Red, Six Bits, and many other dogs are prime examples.

[Pipbull]

That's how I read the topic, that Dibo was a bully, and the reason he was liked was because he was a good performer and producer. And that fact made it unimportant that he looked "more bully than RE dogs," which I completely disagree with.

[ColbyDogs]

I have read through this entire thread and am not getting where and how anyone could compare Dibo to a Bully. I personally feel that pictures are never really what they appear to be live. Dibo was a short little dog 45lbs. How could anyone be confused with him being bullyish looking ? He was not even half the size of an average Bully. No one here would dump on Dibo even if he wasn't the great dog he turned out to be.

About breeding for the perfect specimen, that will never happen cause one mans trash is another mans treasure. There is a reason why all the dogs were bred differently in the past. Many Dogmen bred for different traits of what and how they thought the dogs should perform. Some like the taller rangey style for better turning, longer muzzles for more of a bite, short in height for underneath battles, etc etc etc.. All these dogmen were feeling there dog had some kind of an advantage over its opponent reasons why our breed looks so different today. The ultimte goal was to produce winners not eye candy that gets toted around a show ring regardless of how far from confirmation that dog may be.

[screamin'eagle]

good post CD...that about sums up my thoughts on this thread also. Although Earl tudor was beleived to do some shady dealing in terms of registering dogs I doubt "looks" was ever high on his list of traits to breed for. That alone far seperates Dibo from many, many, Bully's of today. Bred for performance vs. as a leash ornament. If a best to best breeding produces a "stalkier" dog so be it, but along the same times I doubt any advertisements for Tudor's dogs read "biggest head, broadest shoulders, shortest legs, 100 lbs and still growing, etc. That statement is not meant to bash bully's, but instead to highlight breeding practices that produced Dibo vs the dogs he was compared to earlier in the thread.

[renegadepit]

Hey Pipbull. The title may have thrown you off. But if you read the first post when I started this thread. I did not say Dibo was a Bully. But that he "looked" Bully.
I was questioning his size and appearance for a game dog and compare that to the thinner fit adba game dogs of today.
I was questioning his appearance when his ancestors (Feeley) looked much smaller.
I stated that Statton described the Dibo line of having "a double jointed hock"
which is common in Bully dogs of today.
I did not question his gameness which is well documented (as well as his offspring). Simply questioning his appearance.
IMO Dibo had a bully look to him.

[NcPrisonGuard]

How is a dog weighing under 50 lbs chain weight anywhere near "bully like" he was short and stocky, instead of long and lean... you think that means bully?

[Pipbull]

I wonder if I am the only one that thinks this. But when I look at pics of DIBO he looks like a modern day Bully. Not like the fit thinner game dogs of today (or of that time). I know he was a great producer of game dogs and was game himself. Does anyone know what his weight was during his prime? How did he look so big and bully (He looks more Bully than a RE dog) when his ancestors (Feeley line) were smaller looking dogs? Stratton described Dibo dogs of having a "double jointed hock" similar to Bully dogs of today. Look at Dibo's head and body structure? A Bully before his time!!
Any thoughts on this?
That seems to compare him to a bully...

About breeding for the perfect specimen, that will never happen cause one mans trash is another mans treasure. There is a reason why all the dogs were bred differently in the past. Many Dogmen bred for different traits of what and how they thought the dogs should perform. Some like the taller rangey style for better turning, longer muzzles for more of a bite, short in height for underneath battles, etc etc etc.. All these dogmen were feeling there dog had some kind of an advantage over its opponent reasons why our breed looks so different today. The ultimte goal was to produce winners not eye candy that gets toted around a show ring regardless of how far from confirmation that dog may be.
I don't necessarily agree with that. If the ultimate goal was to produce winners only, then we would see more mixed breed dogs. A standard of some sort must exist to seperate something as a breed. Unless you consider the APBT a type of dog rather than a breed of dog, then there has to be a standard. Again, when I say conformation, I am not talking about the show ring. I am talking about how a dog should be structurally. And structure should determine ability. That's why I think it is important.

All in all, I don't think this applies to Dibo, he seems a pretty standard APBT. Not perfect, but within the wide standard of a working dog.

[renegadepit]

[QUOTE=Pipbull]That seems to compare him to a bully...

Thats a correct statement "comparison". You said in an earlier post that I said he was a bully.<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 251308" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>Pipbull</TD><TD class=alt2>That's how I read the topic, that Dibo was a bully</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Everyone know he was not. I was comparing him merely on looks alone. Thats why in my first post I used the word "looks" several times. I wasn't comparing him on anything else, just appearance.

[ColbyDogs]

I don't necessarily agree with that. If the ultimate goal was to produce winners only, then we would see more mixed breed dogs. A standard of some sort must exist to seperate something as a breed. Unless you consider the APBT a type of dog rather than a breed of dog, then there has to be a standard. Again, when I say conformation, I am not talking about the show ring. I am talking about how a dog should be structurally. And structure should determine ability. That's why I think it is important.


If that would not be the case then why so many different looking dogs within our breed ? Much like professional boxers there are different sizes and fighting styles, doesn't mean that its all wrong what only matters if it works, its only wrong if it doesn't work. There were only 2 traits that were sought after back then, gameness and winning. If the dog had just gameness but was a loser then they would find something that complimented the gameness in hopes of producing a winner. No one cared what the dog looked like as long as it had those 2 traits. So if tall lanky and long muzzle was a winning combonation then the dogmen would keep trying to reproduce what is working for them thus tall lanky with long muzzles would be showing in thier future bloodlines.

I agree that it would be true that they stayed withing a certain guidline but the overall appearance of the breed differed by the traits the breeder was looking for when searching for thier next champion. When you go back and look at all the great champions of the past you can see alot of different looking dogs. The one thing that you can say about all of them is that they were all built for ability and performance.

JMHO

[renegadepit]

Earlier I compared Dibo to a Bully. What about this comparison.
Tudors Dibo
Martys Lilbit.
Marty, sorry for putting your dog out there like this, but I think your dog is the epitome of what a perfect ADBA conformation game dog should look like. If you look at Lilbit's picture, thats what the ADBA is all about!!!
Compare Lilbit to Dibo. On Appearance only, Dibo has a Bullier look!
What is standard?

[ColbyDogs]

Earlier I compared Dibo to a Bully. What about this comparison.
Tudors Dibo
Martys Lilbit.
Marty, sorry for putting your dog out there like this, but I think your dog is the epitome of what a perfect ADBA conformation game dog should look like. If you look at Lilbit's picture, thats what the ADBA is all about!!!
Compare Lilbit to Dibo. On Appearance only, Dibo has a Bullier look!
What is standard?
Not a good comparison, one is male other is female. One is also ripped and worked out. The other is on a chain just chilling. You cannot tell really how Dibo looked in just photo's. ( especially black & white ones )

He looks nothing like a Bully, you can spin as hard as you want but I do not see it at all.

[bullydogs]

OH my, i kinda want to change my name on this site now. Even tho i dont own any. I prefer the atheltic toned dog. Pictures are decieving at times tho. My female weighs 37lbs but in some of her pics she looks like a fatty and about 85lbs. Just kidding not that much. Always best to see in person.

[kanediggity]

this site as a certain look they like to say is right, and the only way it can be changed is if it is a dog that is from the past that was one of the "greats" even though 90 % of the people never seen the dog but since they have heard of it makes it a apbt, me myself think that in the old days it was the dog that was the best at fighting not the dog that had the best conformation. could of been any dog.

[Bullyson]

Once again you are comparing a taller, more drawn out dog to a short, stocky, more easty westy dog. That doesnt make the damn dog a bully. One of the best dogs I've ever seen was almost exactly like that. I can assure you he was no bully. If you've seen Vader, thats exactly what he looked like. Earlier I compared Dibo to a Bully. What about this comparison.
Tudors Dibo
Martys Lilbit.
Marty, sorry for putting your dog out there like this, but I think your dog is the epitome of what a perfect ADBA conformation game dog should look like. If you look at Lilbit's picture, thats what the ADBA is all about!!!
Compare Lilbit to Dibo. On Appearance only, Dibo has a Bullier look!
What is standard?

[coolhandjean]

That dog may only look "bully" because of many factors, 1. it could not have been preped for "work", 2. picture is a bit misleading, he appears to be shorter and "stocky", but we can't really tell because of the camera angle. In the second picture, he looks a bit taller. I'd say just from these pictures, he looks closer to an Amstaff-ish look, than an American Bully look, but even then I'd hesistate a little. Just my opinion though.

[kanediggity]

That dog may only look "bully" because of many factors, 1. it could not have been preped for "work", 2. picture is a bit misleading, he appears to be shorter and "stocky", but we can't really tell because of the camera angle. In the second picture, he looks a bit taller. I'd say just from these pictures, he looks closer to an Amstaff-ish look, than an American Bully look, but even then I'd hesistate a little. Just my opinion though.
imagine if everyone set around and come up with excuses about what other dogs looked like where we would be lol.

[coolhandjean]

imagine if everyone set around and come up with excuses about what other dogs looked like where we would be lol.I know. True. lol...I had a guy stop by the house the other day, and he asked me if Notch was a rotweiller. I was like, "nope, he's an American Staffordshire" which usually leaves people with a confused look. lol.

[Pipbull]

So what makes a dog a bully, then? Looks, temperament, or breeding practices?

[ColbyDogs]

So what makes a dog a bully, then? Looks, temperament, or breeding practices?
I think the answer is obvious. The Bully no longer can perform as to how the APBT can and did. They are way oversized and also rumored to have been mixed out to other breeds thus changing the dog into its own breed.

[Sid Finster]

sorry about my comments, but the topic of the thread seemed to me to say that Dibo looked bully and he was an APBT, so the bully dogs around today can be too. Why is it that bully owners try so hard to convince game dog owners that their dogs are game, too -

but game dog owners don't seem interested in impressing the bully owners or care what they think?


I just flat out don't agree with that. Dibo looks stocky, but nothing like a bully. I believe that is called "wishful thinking" on the part of the OP.

[Old Timer]

The only other thing i can add to this and i doubt it will settel things much is,i seen Dibo in person many times and i can tell you this he sure as hell wasn't what i would even call a large dog.he was larger but not huge.he was a dog that didn't photograph well for some reason,so unless you actually seen this dog in person i can understand why there might be some confusion.but to say he even resembled a cur bully is far from the truth,when you seen that dog in real life even on his chain he was all bulldog.and when he was conditioned you could really see it.

But like was allready stated don't compare a male with a female,hardly do they ever make a fair comparrison.i know your trying to get your point across but all i am going to say is your point,or your thinking is very off.and there really is no way you could have known any diffrent because you never seen the dog in person,but take my word for it he was all bulldog,http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[fitzpit]

he doesnt look bully to me. pics can be decieving and OT should know the dog better then anyone here.

i always wondered though- and this is a good oportunity to ask... :)

has anyone ever seen/had a REAL game dog that was blue?
did it throw blue offspring? what was it off of?
thanks :)

[True_Bulldog]

No way does Dibo in anyway resemble a bully. Easpecially if you are looking at him from the front in the other picture. You can clearly see he isn't big and his legs don't go out every which way.

Maybe some of B. Halls dogs do. Some have similar structural problems and are short and long. I think this is simply explained by dwarfism. I know of another dog who's parents look fine but that dog looks like most of the bullies look in structure. This dog still resembles the bloodline but the legs go in and the feet turn out, the back is swayed, body is long. The dog only has 6 different great grand parents. This means our of 8 great granfathers there is only 3 different dogs and out of 8 grand mothers only 3 different. There is dwarfism which is recessive so could be seen through inbreeding, so this could be an explanation.

has anyone ever seen/had a REAL game dog that was blue?
did it throw blue offspring? what was it off of?
thanks images/smilies/smile.gifI don't know if the dog is game or not but I do know that there was a blue Boudeaux dog which Phill Eppinette had so at least gamebred.

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=123005
This dog produced ok

There are several real game dogs that are also blue but might have Staff in the pedigree. Even if its farther back and not up close you never know how far down the genes will carry. Most blue APBTs I have seen had Staff in the pedigree but not always.

What color is this dog below? We have her sister who is brindle. It says black/white which she obviously isn't. Would she be considered a seal/bluies?

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=148583

There is graying in the coat but I'm also some brown shades.

Sometimes my blue Cane Corso looks to have brown shading in her coat in some of her pics too. Although she is clearly blue. I knew someone who bought a blue Pit pup that around a year old started to have reddish tones. She was a light blue but like a seal dog in the light you could see red cast. I thought this was odd especially since blue is dilution of black where did the red coloring come in, how is it inheredited to be in the coat like that.

[jaystreetsA4]

LOL people are reaching man. Dibo was far from a bully dog. SMH @ bully people trying to claim one of the most important stud dogs in the APBT breed as theirs for some legitimacy or something. LOL:rolleyes:

[fitzpit]

No way does Dibo in anyway resemble a bully. Easpecially if you are looking at him from the front in the other picture. You can clearly see he isn't big and his legs don't go out every which way.

Maybe some of B. Halls dogs do. Some have similar structural problems and are short and long. I think this is simply explained by dwarfism. I know of another dog who's parents look fine but that dog looks like most of the bullies look in structure. This dog still resembles the bloodline but the legs go in and the feet turn out, the back is swayed, body is long. The dog only has 6 different great grand parents. This means our of 8 great granfathers there is only 3 different dogs and out of 8 grand mothers only 3 different. There is dwarfism which is recessive so could be seen through inbreeding, so this could be an explanation.

I don't know if the dog is game or not but I do know that there was a blue Boudeaux dog which Phill Eppinette had so at least gamebred.

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=123005
This dog produced ok

There are several real game dogs that are also blue but might have Staff in the pedigree. Even if its farther back and not up close you never know how far down the genes will carry. Most blue APBTs I have seen had Staff in the pedigree but not always.

What color is this dog below? We have her sister who is brindle. It says black/white which she obviously isn't. Would she be considered a seal/bluies?

http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=148583

There is graying in the coat but I'm also some brown shades.

Sometimes my blue Cane Corso looks to have brown shading in her coat in some of her pics too. Although she is clearly blue. I knew someone who bought a blue Pit pup that around a year old started to have reddish tones. She was a light blue but like a seal dog in the light you could see red cast. I thought this was odd especially since blue is dilution of black where did the red coloring come in, how is it inheredited to be in the coat like that.
I have a male that looks just like that one. Odd color. His sire was chocolate and dam was mostly white with blue patches. its like dark chocolate with a twist :)

[redripper]

he doesnt look bully to me. pics can be decieving and OT should know the dog better then anyone here.

i always wondered though- and this is a good oportunity to ask... :)

has anyone ever seen/had a REAL game dog that was blue?
did it throw blue offspring? what was it off of?
thanks :)
I know when I was a little kid my uncle had a fawn bluies male that he had off some alligator stuff mixed with the old whitey ford stuff he was running and it was a real hard hitting leg dog with alot of ability ...ended up with "dropsys" and never got mated so I don't know how he would have produced, but his brother scorpio (who wasn't blue) produced quite a few good dogs.

[miakoda]

Ugh. I thought this thread had been locked. Well, consider it done.


NO ONE can justify mixed breed dogs riding the name of the greatest breed on earth all because their egotistical owners can't feel "cool" unless their dogs gain them some respect in the neighborhood. Grow up.