Too breed....or not Too Breed

[NCPatchwork]

I am taking this topic from an answer on another forum.

I am wanting to breed..it'll be 2 years from now. I am keeping 75 % or more of the litter; is that wrong? Yes, there are plenty of dogs in the world, I understand that, but if we all stop breeding, would we not be creating our own form of BSL. It seems a bit PETA to me to think that I should not breed two dogs that have earned the right to be bred (That doesn't mean just papers, I'm talking about performance, conformation, ETC ETC). I don't believe we are addressing the problem properly. Instead of scratching peoples eyes online, how about the BYBs in the streets. A lot of times, people who are breeding correctly, have homes lined up, contracts, and are keeping some of the litter are doing it correctly. What ever happened to innocent until proven quilty? I understand we do not want everyone to breed, or to own the breed, but sometimes I feel as though we can be a bit prejudice to our own kind.
I am not saying that we should give up the fight to stop the countless breedings that should not have taken place, and I do respect the people "fighting the good fight," but if you go about the wrong way to "EDUCATE," you will end up "PREACHING" and no one wants to hear that. We don't need to discrimnate people on this forum. It is a place to learn, to educate, and most of all, help people. This world will never be the perfect place, but we are all responsible for making it bearable. Lets start first with understanding...then....education with compassion.

Ok...thanks for reading..had to let that out!:)

[Verderben]

I see nothing wrong with breeding your own dogs. Its one thing to breed and keep most or all of a litter, it's totally something different to breed and sell every pup to whoever has the money.

[miakoda]

Ultimately, it's your call. They are your dogs and you can do whatever your please with them.

IMO it all depends on why the breeding is taking place. I personally don't agree with breeding for the show ring. The show ring has ruined almost every breed in existence........just look around the AKC, UKC, & almost every other registry's rings.

[NCPatchwork]

Actually...the question was hypothetical LOL! I was just mentioning the fact that people automatically judge people...sorry this got said the wrong way.

[jr Pit Guy]

I've considered this question myself. Someday, when I do get my place in the countryside, way in the distance, I would love to have 10-15 bulldogs. They are like an addiction to me. The way I look at it, if I can handle 3 in city limits, a few more when I own land shouldn't be too much harder. If this happens, why would I want to go out and buy several more dogs from other sources? If I own a couple of well bred, good quality dogs at the time, why not get pups that come down from well known origins (me)? I mean who can you trust more than yourself? I think this would be better than buying some dog from another person.

Keep in mind, if I EVER bred, I plan on doing my homework, and will likely keep the whole litter, culling as necessary, or possibly giving away one or two to my brother. Screw everyone else, I plan to be stingy. :p :p :p :p :p

This is the ONLY situation that I personally would breed.

BTW, great thread. It's about time somebody looked at the whole breeding thing from another perspective. What are we AR activists? We should leash out on BYBs, not each other.

[frenchie1936]

the survival of our breed depends on us breeding. and i think part of the problem lies with the fact that people subconsciously get off on having some knowledge that other people don't. and i agree that if they are your dogs you have every right to breed them. but if you love the breed and want to continue to be able to own and breed, than there is a certain amount of responsibility that should follow. and why do some of us find it necessary to be rude and arrogant towards those that don't know as much or are a little misguided? why are we not helping them to understand? we need as many people on our side as we can get. power in numbers. it's the notion of one human family. you embrace the people who share the same aspirations as yourself. i'm not saying that we should ALL sit around and sing kumbaya, but we shouldn't shun those who only need a little guidance. where would a lot of us be if no one had ever helped us out or told us when we were ****ing up? however, continued irresposibility deserves to be reprimanded. call a spade a damn spade. it's entirely counterproductive to be asses to those who show a little ignorance or are new to the breed. and with infighting we are only fanning the flames and contributing to the demise of our breed. so think before you try to level someone next time they have something to say that is wrong or misguided.

[frenchie1936]

oh yeah, God bless! :)

[SMOKIN HEMI]

No I kind of disagree . I use to be a BYB. Now that I really know about the breed I had no idea what I was doing. All of that RE passin as pitbull is amazing. People dont know what they are getting. Sad but true we have to keep educating people. Like I was I have learned so much since I have been on this site. I think we need to keep renforcing our stance on breeding and become more unified in who we think should breed and who shouldn't.....

[EDOGZ818]

Well they say "The Breed Is Not For Everyone", ("TRUE 'DAT", I might add), but the site is. Thats the differrence. I am a BYB. I see more damage done by the apartment breeder (or what ever the opposite of backyard breeder is) IE: The 105lb Chinaman, or the guy breeding his blue mamounth to a well bred chinaman female. I was dumb ass a rock in 1982 (still am I guess), and I was educated. So I believe in helping the noob's whenever possible and deserving. To breed or not to breed, can only be judged in person, not in type. Flaming a noob, won't help in either case, whereas constructive criticism and education stands a chance. If anyone is looking to hate on someone, feel free to hate on me, as my supply of haters has dwindled way below the 20 hater minumum national average.

[frenchie1936]

Well they say "The Breed Is Not For Everyone", ("TRUE 'DAT", I might add), but the site is. Thats the differrence. I am a BYB. I see more damage done by the apartment breeder (or what ever the opposite of backyard breeder is) IE: The 105lb Chinaman, or the guy breeding his blue mamounth to a well bred chinaman female. I was dumb ass a rock in 1982 (still am I guess), and I was educated. So I believe in helping the noob's whenever possible and deserving. To breed or not to breed, can only be judged in person, not in type. Flaming a noob, won't help in either case, whereas constructive criticism and education stands a chance. If anyone is looking to hate on someone, feel free to hate on me, as my supply of haters has dwindled way below the 20 hater minumum national average.
well, i guess i'll be one of your haters edogz. although i would feel better about it if you gave me a reason. either way. so what rock did you say you crawled out from under? lol :)

[lockjaw]

if your thinking of money dont breed..if you dont plan on culling the litter dont breed..breeding should only be done by the right person for the right reasons..and if you have any doubt that your the right person or any doubt of the right reasons...DONT BREED...go's for people also;)

[Titch_Pitbull]

It really just boils down to your motive.

[Chef-Kergin]

never hurts to consider possibilities, and ask yourself these hypothetical questions.

hell, my pup's only 1 yr old, but I like to think what dog i'd breed her to if she's worth her salt to me. that's what it boils down to. if i think she's a candidate to throw offspring that will improve upon her and the breed as a whole. and at that point, it'll be up to me what to do with the pups.

if i was to, you bet i'd keep the whole damn litter and watch em grow and get culled as needed. i know that's easier said than done; i've put my own dogs down before, two due to health issues and age, one for snapping on a neighbor kid. i can't imagine how hard it'd be to put down one, two, three, maybe a whole litter that i've nurtured and help grow. but in the end you gotta do what you gotta do.

like titch said, your motive is probably the most important thing.

there's different points of views.

like mia said, the show ring has ruined a bunch of breeds (i'm not poking your ribs here, just tryin to make a point). case in point - Jack Russells. the jrt i have is from my uncle's stock, and he was ratting and taking em to ground for years. colonel listens and acts upon his genetic task without question, and will kill any critter he corners or i set him out after.

but now-a-days, most jrts have no drive or instinct because they started being bred to be apartment ornaments, or just because they are good with kids, and did well in the show ring.

right now, i'm extremely f-in interested in patterdales. you'd be surprised how close most ppl keep their good ones, and will sooner cull their patt puppies than farm/place/sell them. they have a fear that fell terriers will go the same route as others (jrts, boston terriers, etc) that eventually becamse bred just for show, and no longer can perform their genetic task. kind of like bulldog folks are quick to speak against breeding just for show.

hell, there's one guy i've been talkin to that just culled 3 out of his 5 patt puppies (smith/gould) at less than a year old becasue they wouldn't finish a rat when he put em in a ratting box to let them teach themselves what to do. another fella on the same board though, will wait until they're three to put em down if they won't sniff out, go after, and finish the quarry.

i think this is a good way to end my post, as it's been said to me before -

why breed the shell when you should breed the core?

[ColbyDogs]

To be honest I do not think I will ever breed. My family bred APBT's for years and it was alot of work keeping up with all those dogs. I love our breed and do not want them to go anywhere but I cannot contribute to the over population of them. Too many people breed these dogs for the wrong reason and unfortunately I see it almost every day. I help my sister out all the time down at the city pound and it is very disheartning to see all the dogs that show up down there.

Do not get me wrong there is a time and a reason to breed. Just because one person has two dogs is not a good reason to breed. This happens most commonly in my city. The truth be told, not everyone is breeding for the right reasons and that is why this breed is having the problem that it is. I know the good doggers are the ones that breed for themselves and thats good, my uncle bred like that. He would hardly ever part with a pup and if he did it was not to just anybody. Sad part of this though, there are not enough of these kind of people breeding its mostly the people breeding to cash in on something that are causing the problem.

If you do a google search on Pit Bulls look at all the links that pop up for kennels. You cannot tell me all those people are breeding for the right reasons nor are there dogs truly breed worthy. Too many people are cashing in on the popularity of the breed and I do not see that slowing down anytime soon. I myself will not contribute to the problem by breeding, no matter how much I love my dogs and think they would produce great offspring I just cannot bring myself to do it knowing damn well I couldn't keep them all.

I am not against breeders ( the real ones anyways ) I just honestly feel there are not enough of the good people out there doing the breeding. Using Simms line and I think it is fitting for this " Keep it in the circle" is the best thing for this breed and the true fanciers of the APBT.

[EDOGZ818]

I feel where you went with this, and your right, but there is always a flip side. I've seen situations, a whole kennel, was lost, let alone one dog. Granted as the saying goes "Small Chance A Smart Brother Will Be A Victim Of His Own Circumstance"..., but the circumstances aren't always one's own making. (Whether it is or not, is moot at that time.) I personally would rather not have to start over with a 140lbs Blue, that hears a knock on the door and looks at me like , "Get the door Mo' Fo', its for you!", Or when I let him into the yard to go poop, he either poops on the back steps, or in front of them, then comes back inside, and plops down like he just ran the N.Y. marathon.
I was always into APBT, although I wasn't born into them like my children are. When I became a BYB, my intention was to capitalize off of the popularity of the breed.
Now free market dictates the product. (Supply, demand) and this translates to breeder (& availability) and quality, as well as availability. What this meant was, in order to make money (FOR US), we had to offer a better product cheaper. Business 101. I bred what I would buy. This didn't leave much if any $$ left for profits. (Stud fee's, Airfare, Dam, upkeep etc.) I can say the best I've ever done is break even, which hasn't happened for at least 10yrs. (Granted I only breed every few years.[Personal Reasons] Now my customers are usually friends and family with one or two of thier recommendations. I can't sell them anything that would disapoint. One guys (VERY CLOSE) got a pup from me to settle a debt. (Jewells X Stone = my Gallery) and he's happier than a mUgHHhh! His mom & pop "HATED!!" , APBT, with a passion. My Friend lost his place, and had to move back home. He stayed a while, moved out, let the dog for like 4mths. Man, this dude had to damn near come to blows with his fams to get the dog back. They loved the shyt out of him. To this day, he is the only dog they will have. Oh, and "P.K.N.Y.'s "WONKA", is beautiful, and a Str8 beast, but mom and pop only see how his is with them. (Soft, cuddly liwal' baby boo.)
He just aquired a female from me (littermate sis bred back to dad), and has one coming, that he paid for 4yrs ago. (Female from P.K.N.Y.'s "STONE X FELONY"). I said breed your male to the two females, give as gifts (They make Hella stocking stuffers) to establish your catalouge, or sell for fair price. He had "PITS", or what I refer to as "STREET DOGS", (I mistakenly reffered to them (& all other "LOOK" alikes as AMSTaFFs, or STAFFS.) in the past, but his eyes are now open to "TRUE APBT".
I told him, when you see in your dog, what you see in my dog that makes you want a pup: breed him to your female that shows you what you saw in my female, that made you want a pup off of her.
He may be be fledgling DOGMAN, but he's a DOGMAN none the less, and a much better example than some of whats out there masquerading as reputable breeders. This story can be repeated time and time again with different names and events. I always referr to his dog as my "COMMERCIAL". If you wanna see what I churn out, he's one of the first or second I show. If it is a repeat breeding, you get to see the finished product. ( Created by the 3 - 4 yrs gap between initial breeding.) Consistancy was the key. Follow a pattern, even when changing patterns. If I ever have to start over again, I can. I would rather lose $$$ than years of work. ($$$ = Quality pup purchased from proven stock + stud fee + airfare)

[jr Pit Guy]

????????????????

You lost me EDOGZ. I think I burned up a few brain cells trying to comprehend that post. LOL

[FearlessKnight]

????????????????

You lost me EDOGZ. I think I burned up a few brain cells trying to comprehend that post. LOL No kidding from what I just got out of it again, for the second or third time reading it..he is telling us that he is a BYB....LMAO! And that is ok to breed.
Could be wrong, but thats what I gathered from it....who knows....maybe he can explain it when he comes back....:confused:

[lockjaw]

I feel where you went with this, and your right, but there is always a flip side. I've seen situations, a whole kennel, was lost, let alone one dog. Granted as the saying goes "Small Chance A Smart Brother Will Be A Victim Of His Own Circumstance"..., but the circumstances aren't always one's own making. (Whether it is or not, is moot at that time.) I personally would rather not have to start over with a 140lbs Blue, that hears a knock on the door and looks at me like , "Get the door Mo' Fo', its for you!", Or when I let him into the yard to go poop, he either poops on the back steps, or in front of them, then comes back inside, and plops down like he just ran the N.Y. marathon.
I was always into APBT, although I wasn't born into them like my children are. When I became a BYB, my intention was to capitalize off of the popularity of the breed.
Now free market dictates the product. (Supply, demand) and this translates to breeder (& availability) and quality, as well as availability. What this meant was, in order to make money (FOR US), we had to offer a better product cheaper. Business 101. I bred what I would buy. This didn't leave much if any $$ left for profits. (Stud fee's, Airfare, Dam, upkeep etc.) I can say the best I've ever done is break even, which hasn't happened for at least 10yrs. (Granted I only breed every few years.[Personal Reasons] Now my customers are usually friends and family with one or two of thier recommendations. I can't sell them anything that would disapoint. One guys (VERY CLOSE) got a pup from me to settle a debt. (Jewells X Stone = my Gallery) and he's happier than a mUgHHhh! His mom & pop "HATED!!" , APBT, with a passion. My Friend lost his place, and had to move back home. He stayed a while, moved out, let the dog for like 4mths. Man, this dude had to damn near come to blows with his fams to get the dog back. They loved the shyt out of him. To this day, he is the only dog they will have. Oh, and "P.K.N.Y.'s "WONKA", is beautiful, and a Str8 beast, but mom and pop only see how his is with them. (Soft, cuddly liwal' baby boo.)
He just aquired a female from me (littermate sis bred back to dad), and has one coming, that he paid for 4yrs ago. (Female from P.K.N.Y.'s "STONE X FELONY"). I said breed your male to the two females, give as gifts (They make Hella stocking stuffers) to establish your catalouge, or sell for fair price. He had "PITS", or what I refer to as "STREET DOGS", (I mistakenly reffered to them (& all other "LOOK" alikes as AMSTaFFs, or STAFFS.) in the past, but his eyes are now open to "TRUE APBT".
I told him, when you see in your dog, what you see in my dog that makes you want a pup: breed him to your female that shows you what you saw in my female, that made you want a pup off of her.
He may be be fledgling DOGMAN, but he's a DOGMAN none the less, and a much better example than some of whats out there masquerading as reputable breeders. This story can be repeated time and time again with different names and events. I always referr to his dog as my "COMMERCIAL". If you wanna see what I churn out, he's one of the first or second I show. If it is a repeat breeding, you get to see the finished product. ( Created by the 3 - 4 yrs gap between initial breeding.) Consistancy was the key. Follow a pattern, even when changing patterns. If I ever have to start over again, I can. I would rather lose $$$ than years of work. ($$$ = Quality pup purchased from proven stock + stud fee + airfare)man you gave me a big ass head ache....any way my problem is alot of people spend alot of money on crap..breed crap to crap..end up with crap..and want to sell crap..to get there crap spent money back..and that puts are breed in the crapper.

[coolhandjean]

man you gave me a big ass head ache....any way my problem is alot of people spend alot of money on crap..breed crap to crap..end up with crap..and want to sell crap..to get there crap spent money back..and that puts are breed in the crapper.that's a lot of crap. lol.

[EDOGZ818]

Upkeep cost more than the usual dog. (PUP) You can't make a succussful living breeding crap if the competition has better quality for less. Can't say if a breeding was good or not till years later, when full maturity is reached. (Here take two asprin for the headache and post in the morning.)

[lockjaw]

Upkeep cost more than the usual dog. (PUP) You can't make a succussful living breeding crap if the competition has better quality for less. Can't say if a breeding was good or not till years later, when full maturity is reached. (Here take two asprin for the headache and post in the morning.)explain why people sell low quality blue dogs for more than high quality gamebred dogs..and if a breeding was good you would know with in six months...culling a litter is not running an add in the paper..and thats ok i can just shake it off and skip the aspirin....funny thing is most byb's and puppy peddlers are good bull shitters also..

[frenchie1936]

more food for thought........

[EDOGZ818]

A sucker is born every minute, so a blue may cost $1,000 - $3,000. If you don't know the deal, you won't get the real. Most game dog breeders would take less, even give a dog to someone who will bring thier breeding national or international acclaim. Shyster's aren't really concerned with repeat customers, or reputation. They are very easy for the trained eye to spot. Yes, it is true that the untrained noob is easliy bullshyted. The serious dogman, will see through the charade like plastic.
One dead giveaway is the conversation revolves around everything but confirmed reports. Another is tales of meaningless "TEST". Another is lack of referances from quality & established "DOGMAN". Hope these tips help sort out the real from the fake. There is no such thing as a good bullshyter in my book. The fault lies with the bullshytee.
P.S. There is an old saying: " If a dog quits after 18mths it is his fault, If he quits before 18mnths it is your fault". I can't agree with culling at 6mnths. I let the pup be a pup. That issue usually isn't brought up untill around 2yrs, if even brought up at all. I can't imagine what the pup can do @ 6mnths either way to base such an important decision on. CH. Jeep was cold until 4yrs old. My dog "G-Man's Diamond" off of CH. BOOGER, never turned on, yet she produced CH. Bonecrusher. If old man Giroux (CH. BOOGER) is still alive, (He'll probably still be in CANADA if he is), you should ask him about culling before maturity.

[frenchie1936]

A sucker is born every minute, so a blue may cost $1,000 - $3,000. If you don't know the deal, you won't get the real. Most game dog breeders would take less, even give a dog to someone who will bring thier breeding national or international acclaim. Shyster's aren't really concerned with repeat customers, or reputation. They are very easy for the trained eye to spot. Yes, it is true that the untrained noob is easliy bullshyted. The serious dogman, will see through the charade like plastic.
One dead giveaway is the conversation revolves around everything but confirmed reports. Another is tales of meaningless "TEST". Another is lack of referances from quality & established "DOGMAN". Hope these tips help sort out the real from the fake. There is no such thing as a good bullshyter in my book. The fault lies with the bullshytee.
i do feel bad for the people that get suckered into buying crap, but that only highlights the necessity of doing your research before you buy a pup/dog. research what the kennel has been producing and ask if they have references. there is only so much culpability that lies with the shady breeders. you as an independent minded adult should know what you are doing before you do it. however, i firmly believe that most people only get blues and other bully types because of how it portrays the person. this isn't true in every case, but i would say a good majority of them.

[EDOGZ818]

Who sells Blues and can produce a positive referrence from a reputable dogman? Its trial and error. I got suckered when I was a noob, but not really, because I wanted a dog with papers, and I got one. Thats all I got. (LOL) If you want a dog thats blue, you'll get it. (Probably all you'll get is a dog thats blue.) No robbery in fair exchange. (HA, Ha) I feel bad for noobs to. That's why I laid out a few tips to spot a bullshytter, but the most important is to know what you want, and who has it. To me, previous customers should be readily available with thier dogs, for inspection and interview. That is almost a must, or given. Beware of the breeder who has pups he can't remember, or doesn't know where they are. The established dogman, probably doesn't have this info for obvious reasons, but the unestablished not only should, but they should be super proud to show them off.

[Phebes]

if your thinking of money dont breed..if you dont plan on culling the litter dont breed..breeding should only be done by the right person for the right reasons..and if you have any doubt that your the right person or any doubt of the right reasons...DONT BREED...go's for people also;)
Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phebes]

To be honest I do not think I will ever breed. My family bred APBT's for years and it was alot of work keeping up with all those dogs. I love our breed and do not want them to go anywhere but I cannot contribute to the over population of them. Too many people breed these dogs for the wrong reason and unfortunately I see it almost every day. I help my sister out all the time down at the city pound and it is very disheartning to see all the dogs that show up down there.

Do not get me wrong there is a time and a reason to breed. Just because one person has two dogs is not a good reason to breed. This happens most commonly in my city. The truth be told, not everyone is breeding for the right reasons and that is why this breed is having the problem that it is. I know the good doggers are the ones that breed for themselves and thats good, my uncle bred like that. He would hardly ever part with a pup and if he did it was not to just anybody. Sad part of this though, there are not enough of these kind of people breeding its mostly the people breeding to cash in on something that are causing the problem.

If you do a google search on Pit Bulls look at all the links that pop up for kennels. You cannot tell me all those people are breeding for the right reasons nor are there dogs truly breed worthy. Too many people are cashing in on the popularity of the breed and I do not see that slowing down anytime soon. I myself will not contribute to the problem by breeding, no matter how much I love my dogs and think they would produce great offspring I just cannot bring myself to do it knowing damn well I couldn't keep them all.

I am not against breeders ( the real ones anyways ) I just honestly feel there are not enough of the good people out there doing the breeding. Using Simms line and I think it is fitting for this " Keep it in the circle" is the best thing for this breed and the true fanciers of the APBT.
OMG ! ! ! you said it just right.

[frenchie1936]

i did, i did see a putty tat!

[NCPatchwork]

Most people just see what they want to see and hear what they want to here. Someone asked me if Lil' Bit was a "minature pit bull." I started by saying, there is no such thing as a pit bull, then no such thing as a minature of the AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRRIER breed. She had the big blue dogs (80 plus lbs) and I told her I considered it an american bully. She then told me that the breeder called it this and that and in the end she paid 1500 for ONE DOG. Thats more than I've paid for all my dogs put together and I can't even get to that price! She felt fooled in the end, but then walked off and said thanks for the information.
Like y'all said, anyone is gullible. At first, I was gullible, only wanting the big (I had done research) but didn't want the blue stuff. I just wanted the top of the standard (60 lbs tops) but after learning about old stuff and conformation, I'm glad Phantom is only45 lbs.
Its hard to teach people about why the old is better (none human aggression, etc.) because once the word "fighting" comes out of your mouth, you are automatically disliked and they stop listening. All I say now, is "in the old days" just to keep them listening, if I generally think they want to learn.

Like I said before, you can teach them if they don't want to learn.