Staffordshire Bull Terrier

[Envy's Mom]

I have been curious about this breed for a long time and I can't find enough information on them. Does anyone own these dogs or familiar with them. I have never even seen one in person, but I am interested in getting one someday.

What I have read states they do not have a standard size and they can range from 30-100lbs. I was interested primarily because I thought they were smaller dogs. (i thought 30 or so lbs)

If anyone has pictures too please post.

[dogged]

What I have read states they do not have a standard size and they can range from 30-100lbs.


Males shouldn't be more than 38lbs.

[RightHandImp]

Hey, here is a link to the SBTCA (Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club of America) related to the AKC, has standards and photos. It says they can reach a top weight of 40lbs, but they are very compact. Met one once, cool little guys!

http://www.sbtca.com/site01/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=60

[Titch_Pitbull]

Staffords have been ruined by Show breeders

real staffords - http://www.staffordtribute.info/photogallery/index.html

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow086.jpg



http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r309/MATTBRANDI/DSC02783.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/rayabud/FE0242B23B.jpg?t=1176891312

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow085.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow084.jpg

[Envy's Mom]

Thanks for the links and pictures. That is a much better site than a the ones I ran across. I would love to get one of these one day, but I have never even seen one. At least not one I knew was this breed. They really look like APBTs. They have the same fighting history as well. I find that very intriguing. Does anyone have personal experience with them? Can you tell me a little about the personalities of these dogs. If you were to get one where would you go? About how much $ do these dogs cost?

Any more info on these dogs would be greatly appreciated.

[heelinok]

There was pretty cool little staffie in the movie Snatch. A friend of mine had one when I was growing up. We raised Boxers, and she was great around them. Amazingly high jumper for her size too.

[lunadogge]

Staffords have been ruined by Show breeders

real staffords - http://www.staffordtribute.info/photogallery/index.html

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow086.jpg



http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r309/MATTBRANDI/DSC02783.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/rayabud/FE0242B23B.jpg?t=1176891312

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow085.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow084.jpg
Titch great looking staffs. It is nice to see some that are conditioned and not a fat frog dog. What kennel(s) are these dogs from? Here are two kennels that I have heard have good staffs as well.
http://www.konfederatekennels.homestead.com/staffybulls.html
http://www.bionicamericanbulldogs.net/staffys.html

[Titch_Pitbull]

These are just regular staff's at a dog show in the UK. dedicated to working staffords.

[Titch_Pitbull]

"find that very intriguing. Does anyone have personal experience with them? Can you tell me a little about the personalities of these dogs. If you were to get one where would you go? About how much $ do these dogs cost? "

I've owned a couple of working staff from lines such as Diamond Jim.Dublin Red.Fiery Jacks Pet. (all atleast Ch's in the box)

These are very sweet dogs. Nicknamed the nanny dog because there amazing with children and humans in general. Highly active and very eager to please.

Im not too sure about US breeders as ive only been in the US for a year or so now.

Probably $800+ a pup.

Both parents should be tested for eye sight and hips

[Envy's Mom]

Can someone explain the difference in the different Staffordshire Bull Terriers? There are Irish/Scottish and English. Are there other variations. I was originally looking for a British Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Although that may not even be a breed.

I know the English have been ruined by show breeders and the Irish/ Scottish were originally game bred.

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for everyones replies!

[Envy's Mom]

Thanks Titch that is good info to know!

Keep the replies coming I would like to learn more!

[Titch_Pitbull]

Can someone explain the difference in the different Staffordshire Bull Terriers? There are Irish/Scottish and English. Are there other variations. I was originally looking for a British Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Although that may not even be a breed.


Basically Irish dogs tend to be more preformance and game bred. Although I belive they are the same breed and stem from each other similar to the ast and the apbt.

[Mouser]

Envy's Mom, Stafforshire Bull Terriers, are the english ones, Irish staffs, are a mix of Staffordshire Bull Terriers, English Bull Terriers (Spuds), and APBT's. The true Staffie Bulls are pretty neat dogs, I've not had any experience with the Irish Staffs, but I'd venture a guess that they are very much like APBT's. I owned a Staffie for a while, very sweet dog, but very DA towards same size or bigger males. I had to give him back to his previous owner, because he was allergic to something in my house. $800. would probably be a good starting price. Best of luck, MouserCan someone explain the difference in the different Staffordshire Bull Terriers? There are Irish/Scottish and English. Are there other variations. I was originally looking for a British Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Although that may not even be a breed.

I know the English have been ruined by show breeders and the Irish/ Scottish were originally game bred.

Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for everyones replies! Titch, them are some very nice looking dogs.

[screamin'eagle]

but very DA towards same size or bigger males. Not to venture too far off topic, but I wonder what is the root of this behavior. (Im guessinig it is rooted in dominance). My pup is going on six months now, and he is acting the same way. If I have him out front, and someone walks by with a pomerian, etc he will ignore them (unless they challenge him), but if its a American Bulldog, Rottweiler, another APBT, etc. he goes nuts trying to get to them. I was just curious if someone new precisely why?

BTW Titch_Pitbull those are beautiful dogs that you posted. I understand that they aren't your, but I just wanted to say thanks for posting. That black and white one (3rd picture down) looks especially serious!

[JRSPITS]

Most breeders here in the US want about $1500+ for show pups, haven't found any good working kennels so far. I'm hoping to get one in the next few years. I met my first two staffy bulls a couple months ago and fell in love with their happy, enthusiastic personality.

[diva]

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow086.jpg



http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r309/MATTBRANDI/DSC02783.jpg

I like this one!

[Envy's Mom]

Thanks everyone for your replies. These dogs seem pretty closely related to APBT and that intrigues me. I sent an email to this kennel to see if I could get some more information and I'll share with you what I got. This is the link for the kennel I emailed http://www.jajca.staffdata.co.uk/. They seem like really nice people. They gave me this link to check out http://www.staffords.co.uk/.

Are these the showy ones or the working ones?

The history on these dogs seems cut and paste from APBTs. Anyone know what sets the breeds apart?

[Titch_Pitbull]

There the show ones.

Try ghostly ease staffords

http://www.ghostlyease.co.uk/index.htm

Very nice working ones.

--

[14rock]

I'll take em all :)

[grayley]

Here in the UK people have been selling so called Irish Staffords but if truth be known most of these dogs came from Kennel club show dogs imported into Ireland. Then in the 80s they were imported back into the UK in large numbers because Ireland bred them for the badger trials and for the pit, unlike in the UK these Staffords were real working Staffords. Alot of Staffords were crossed with Pits and EBT in the 80s. Heres a article written by a dogman from Ireland who produced some great match Staffords its a good read thought you guys might like it. Enjoy.

BUSTING MYTHS.......ON PAST HISTORY.

Having read some of the contibtions in your periodical, it seems apparent theres quite a few Stafford fanciers living in fantasy land.Any suggestions that we should accept the English Bull Terriers version of history for the breed would be particularly retrograde, as that version is basically the English Bull Terriers history transposed onto the Stafford.

According to the English Bull Terrier story, the 1860's type White English Bull Terrier was superior to the Original Bull Terrier as a fighting dog, why then did the old time sporting fraternity not abandon the older type to embrace the new Dalmation/English White Terrier/Stafford mix ?....the answer is simple, you cannot mongrelise a strain by crossing to a different breed and expect to consistently produce game dogs. I speak from experience....not armchair theories.

The idea that a long established game line of combat Bulldogs could be improved by crossing with Terriers may have been acceptable 150 years ago when evolution was a dirty word but it doesnt work in practice.

The Irish Wheaten Terrier not the show Wheaten is as game as any Terrier, having been bred for the specific task in recent times of meeting big game underground in total silence, often taking terrible punishment. Many times these dogs have been crossed with Staffords in order to improve this inclination to work in silence to the progeny competing in trials in Ireland. Ive bred quie a few litters myself this way, using really game Staffords and Wheatens from Peter Gormans strain which were the very best...of all the pups i produced, i only know of one dog possessing the type of gameness i required of my Staffs. This dog Terry T's Grip went 2:20 and lost game against a local Staff dog of 36lbs. None of the brothers or sisters were game and he didnt sire a single game pup. I think that the Bull breeds were indeed crossed with other dogs to increase the determination of Lord Orfords coursing Greyhounds, to increase the gameness and strength of jaw in Terriers used to hunt, and more recently to increase the poke and agility of the Mastiff breeds to produce the so called Bandog, but never ever to increase the fighting ability of the Pit dog. I must stress that my opinions are based on experience at the sharp end....not from books or pub conversations.

Another source of amusement is the growing trend of fanciers claiming to own Old-Tyme Staffords. I'd like to know where were all those Old- time dogs 20 years ago, when i was looking for competition for my own Staffords.All show strain Staffords produce some pups which are more rangey than the ornamental favourites of the EKC exhibitors and, when these are passed onto pet homes some get into the hands of those who claim to have remnants of ..secret strains, thats been hidden away since a 100 years ago....others are produced by crossing APBT'S, like the newly recognised Jack Russell Terrier enthusiasts claim to trace their dogs back to the Reverend Jack Russell himself. The mainstream Jack Russell fanciers who hunt their dogs want nothing to do with Kennel Club shows, considering that show Jack Russells were infused with Fox Terrier blood to produce showy-looking tho largely useless dogs.

One example of the Old Time Stafford that was quoted was CH. Stormer. well to those 'Old Time' Stafford fanciers who are new to the game, i can tell you that this dog was bred from3/4 English Bull bitch ( which was also the mother of Flint a 2 x W and 1 x L) and a pure Stafford called Adam. When Adam was owned by Nibbsey of Belfast he quit in 35 mins. Adam was son of Socks the great badger dog and he was pure show bred being a grandson of the Belfast bred CH Badgerlea Rascal.
Rickys CH. Psycho another 'Old Time' Stafford was 1/8th English Bull Terrier and double bred on Geronimo, Geronimo wasnt from some obscure strain of secret fighting dogs either...but from show bred lines his grandsire was CH. Brinstock Glenagow.
The former owners of CH. Stormer the Boneyard boys insist that the best Stafford they ever saw was a son of my old Oscar, a dog called Teddy and that includes GR CH Duke...CH Psycho...CH Stormer. Oscar also produced my own own bitch i named Squaw a 2 x winner. None of these dogs were bred off any mysterious old time strain either as Oscar was sired by CH Rockmere Rip It Up and a Belfast show Stafford. So where where were all those 'old time' Staffords hiding when these dogs were active?

I must add, that im not championing the cause of show breeding but the simple fact is that the only strains of Staffs that exist today are from KC reg'd stock somewhere along the line or else a cross of these dogs with KC English Bulls ....or more recently with APBT's.

That is the situation in Ireland, and if someone in Britain is claiming to have 'old time ' Staffs that arnt bred off KC stock, why could none be found to challenge CH. Brock or Dillenger ? both bred down from registered stock. From many of the pedigrees advertised of 'Irish Strain' Staffs its apparent that these donot represent dogs that were ever matched over here, with very few exceptions, but someone is doing very nicely out selling their notion that they were. the fact that top quality dogs are so rarely produced, even when breeding for working ability alone in Stafford, is the reason why many of us have gone over to pure APBT's.50 years of breeding for purely ornamental dogs has flooded the country with inferior dogs, making it all the more difficult to reproduce gameness. When it does crop up its a throw back. Its much easier to produce in Pitbulls which have game dogs scattered more closely in their pedigrees.

LETS CUT THE bullcrap....Humbug is a product of fantasy and a lack of knowledge with experience.

Yours in sport....DRIFTER.

( Published originally in 1990.)

[realonebulldog]

Staffords have been ruined by Show breeders

real staffords - http://www.staffordtribute.info/photogallery/index.html

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow086.jpg



http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r309/MATTBRANDI/DSC02783.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/rayabud/FE0242B23B.jpg?t=1176891312

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow085.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow084.jpgThis dogs remind me on crib and Pilot .....very nice.

[strom22]

english staffs i have been around and i have one that has been on a 200lb boar at only 40lbs , his bloodline is donnellas/ intrepid. as for the irish staffs the stormer and phsyco line are crossed with bull terrier or pitbull shows it in the pedgrees. i do however like the dublin red dogs. i cant help but to think that alot of the irish staffs are really american pitbull terriers, they just callem irish staffs b/c pits are illegel in some parts of the UK. but this is just my opinion .

[amos]

most irish staffs are pitbulls in the uk most people call them irish staffs because pitbulls are banned

[Envy's Mom]

The breeds have a different standard I dont see how they can be the same. I could see them mixed, but the same that seems strange to me.

[FalconTi0]

I have a 17 month old boy who is a real good dog. He is fine with most dogs outside the house, but he does want to be the dominant male in the house. He doesn't try to start anything but he has had to defend himself against my sister's dog. Two males so they go at it sometimes so we keep them apart now. Her dog is a pit bull. My SBT is about 43 lbs. He's not in real good shape because I haven't been working with him like I should due to a lot going on.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i291/FalconTi0/CAH20LFW.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i291/FalconTi0/CAQZ89YR.jpg

[Bullyson]

"find that very intriguing. Does anyone have personal experience with them? Can you tell me a little about the personalities of these dogs. If you were to get one where would you go? About how much $ do these dogs cost? "

I've owned a couple of working staff from lines such as Diamond Jim.Dublin Red.Fiery Jacks Pet. (all atleast Ch's in the box)

These are very sweet dogs. Nicknamed the nanny dog because there amazing with children and humans in general. Highly active and very eager to please.

Im not too sure about US breeders as ive only been in the US for a year or so now.

Probably $800+ a pup.

Both parents should be tested for eye sight and hipsBefore I got into game dogs a neighbor of mine had two littermate brother amstaffs. At 7 months old they started fighting each other so he gave "Tyson" to me. He was AKC reg, blue and white with a very nice show crop on his ears. This dog was the dumbest animal Ive ever been around. Crate train? Yeah right. He would back his ass up to the edge of the crate and shit out the side of it. If you left him alone, he would break out of the crate and DESTROY everything. I never could figure out how in the hell he was getting out but he damn sure did every time. He tore up centimental shit. No remotes or sunglasses like a normal dog would. He would find irreplaceable pictures of my Dad, tear them up and piss on them. Needless to say, he didnt last long in my household. I gave him to a friend and he's still there today as an OUTSIDE dog. Whoever payed 1500 dollars for that box of hammers was outside their mind.

[FalconTi0]

my dog is english staffordshire bull terrier. he is a knuckle head at times but smart as a whip. crate training was super easy.

[Mouser]

This dog was the dumbest animal Ive ever been around. Crate train? Yeah right. He would back his ass up to the edge of the crate and shit out the side of it. If you left him alone, he would break out of the crate and DESTROY everything. I never could figure out how in the hell he was getting out but he damn sure did every time. Whoever payed 1500 dollars for that box of hammers was outside their mind. I don't know, he sounds pretty smart to not want to be laying in mess. If he was getting out of the crate with no evidence as to how, that sounds pretty impressive too, LOL! Mouser

[castle]

BUSTING MYTHS.......ON PAST HISTORY.

Having read some of the contibtions in your periodical, it seems apparent theres quite a few Stafford fanciers living in fantasy land.Any suggestions that we should accept the English Bull Terriers version of history for the breed would be particularly retrograde, as that version is basically the English Bull Terriers history transposed onto the Stafford.

According to the English Bull Terrier story, the 1860's type White English Bull Terrier was superior to the Original Bull Terrier as a fighting dog, why then did the old time sporting fraternity not abandon the older type to embrace the new Dalmation/English White Terrier/Stafford mix ?....the answer is simple, you cannot mongrelise a strain by crossing to a different breed and expect to consistently produce game dogs. I speak from experience....not armchair theories.

The idea that a long established game line of combat Bulldogs could be improved by crossing with Terriers may have been acceptable 150 years ago when evolution was a dirty word but it doesnt work in practice.

The Irish Wheaten Terrier not the show Wheaten is as game as any Terrier, having been bred for the specific task in recent times of meeting big game underground in total silence, often taking terrible punishment. Many times these dogs have been crossed with Staffords in order to improve this inclination to work in silence to the progeny competing in trials in Ireland. Ive bred quie a few litters myself this way, using really game Staffords and Wheatens from Peter Gormans strain which were the very best...of all the pups i produced, i only know of one dog possessing the type of gameness i required of my Staffs. This dog Terry T's Grip went 2:20 and lost game against a local Staff dog of 36lbs. None of the brothers or sisters were game and he didnt sire a single game pup. I think that the Bull breeds were indeed crossed with other dogs to increase the determination of Lord Orfords coursing Greyhounds, to increase the gameness and strength of jaw in Terriers used to hunt, and more recently to increase the poke and agility of the Mastiff breeds to produce the so called Bandog, but never ever to increase the fighting ability of the Pit dog. I must stress that my opinions are based on experience at the sharp end....not from books or pub conversations.

Another source of amusement is the growing trend of fanciers claiming to own Old-Tyme Staffords. I'd like to know where were all those Old- time dogs 20 years ago, when i was looking for competition for my own Staffords.All show strain Staffords produce some pups which are more rangey than the ornamental favourites of the EKC exhibitors and, when these are passed onto pet homes some get into the hands of those who claim to have remnants of ..secret strains, thats been hidden away since a 100 years ago....others are produced by crossing APBT'S, like the newly recognised Jack Russell Terrier enthusiasts claim to trace their dogs back to the Reverend Jack Russell himself. The mainstream Jack Russell fanciers who hunt their dogs want nothing to do with Kennel Club shows, considering that show Jack Russells were infused with Fox Terrier blood to produce showy-looking tho largely useless dogs.

One example of the Old Time Stafford that was quoted was CH. Stormer. well to those 'Old Time' Stafford fanciers who are new to the game, i can tell you that this dog was bred from3/4 English Bull bitch ( which was also the mother of Flint a 2 x W and 1 x L) and a pure Stafford called Adam. When Adam was owned by Nibbsey of Belfast he quit in 35 mins. Adam was son of Socks the great badger dog and he was pure show bred being a grandson of the Belfast bred CH Badgerlea Rascal.
Rickys CH. Psycho another 'Old Time' Stafford was 1/8th English Bull Terrier and double bred on Geronimo, Geronimo wasnt from some obscure strain of secret fighting dogs either...but from show bred lines his grandsire was CH. Brinstock Glenagow.
The former owners of CH. Stormer the Boneyard boys insist that the best Stafford they ever saw was a son of my old Oscar, a dog called Teddy and that includes GR CH Duke...CH Psycho...CH Stormer. Oscar also produced my own own bitch i named Squaw a 2 x winner. None of these dogs were bred off any mysterious old time strain either as Oscar was sired by CH Rockmere Rip It Up and a Belfast show Stafford. So where where were all those 'old time' Staffords hiding when these dogs were active?

I must add, that im not championing the cause of show breeding but the simple fact is that the only strains of Staffs that exist today are from KC reg'd stock somewhere along the line or else a cross of these dogs with KC English Bulls ....or more recently with APBT's.

That is the situation in Ireland, and if someone in Britain is claiming to have 'old time ' Staffs that arnt bred off KC stock, why could none be found to challenge CH. Brock or Dillenger ? both bred down from registered stock. From many of the pedigrees advertised of 'Irish Strain' Staffs its apparent that these donot represent dogs that were ever matched over here, with very few exceptions, but someone is doing very nicely out selling their notion that they were. the fact that top quality dogs are so rarely produced, even when breeding for working ability alone in Stafford, is the reason why many of us have gone over to pure APBT's.50 years of breeding for purely ornamental dogs has flooded the country with inferior dogs, making it all the more difficult to reproduce gameness. When it does crop up its a throw back. Its much easier to produce in Pitbulls which have game dogs scattered more closely in their pedigrees.

LETS CUT THE bullcrap....Humbug is a product of fantasy and a lack of knowledge with experience.

Yours in sport....DRIFTER.

So really there are only staffordshire bull terriers nothing more nothing less. Apart from crosses.

[Envy's Mom]

Before I got into game dogs a neighbor of mine had two littermate brother amstaffs. At 7 months old they started fighting each other so he gave "Tyson" to me. He was AKC reg, blue and white with a very nice show crop on his ears. This dog was the dumbest animal Ive ever been around. Crate train? Yeah right. He would back his ass up to the edge of the crate and shit out the side of it. If you left him alone, he would break out of the crate and DESTROY everything. I never could figure out how in the hell he was getting out but he damn sure did every time. He tore up centimental shit. No remotes or sunglasses like a normal dog would. He would find irreplaceable pictures of my Dad, tear them up and piss on them. Needless to say, he didnt last long in my household. I gave him to a friend and he's still there today as an OUTSIDE dog. Whoever payed 1500 dollars for that box of hammers was outside their mind.
This thread is not about Am Staffs (American Staffordshire Terriers) its about Irish Staffordshire Bull Terriers. Unless someone is trying to tell me they are the same breed. Just different strains?

[Titch_Pitbull]

great post castle.

[castle]

heres a picture of terrys grip who as named in my previous post was a stafford x wheaton cross typical of why they can be called Irish Staffs , and below him a picture of a wheaton
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/castle_010/TerrysGrip01.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/castle_010/wheaton.jpg

[grayley]

Castle i had already posted that post about busting myths earlier in this topic. It was written by a top dogman who produced some of the best Staffords bred in the 80s. Irish Staffords are the Staffordshire Bull Terriers which were imported to the UK in the 80s in large numbers. By the likes of M. Dann he used the term on his import papers and the name stuck. Alot of Staffords were crossed with Pits and EBT in the 80s aswell so alot of these so called Irish Staffords are nothing but crosses. So called dogmen in the 80s onwards made alot of money selling these types of dogs and alot of people were conned aswell. Theres was false peds flying all over the place. Now adays alot of people make money of selling so called Irish or old time Staffords when in fact there just any Stafford that longer in the leg than normal. Basically there just Staffordshire Bull Terriers originally bred from Kennel Club lines imported into Ireland then in the 80s back into the UK.

[castle]

STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER
By PHIL DRABBLE.

Like most of the worthwhile things in life, a good Stafford is not attained without effort on the part of his owner. If he is thoroughly trained and well exercised, no dog could possibly be a more delightful companion. On the other hand, an untrained, under-
exercised Stafford can do more mischief in a few moments than any dog I know.

This is easily understood when it is realised that Staffords have been bred for more than a century for the sole purpose of dog-fighting. When bull-baiting finally ceased, about 1835, the men who worshipped at the shrine of the Game Dog transferred their devotion from the bull-ring to the dog pit. Dog-fighting had long been very popular and bulldogs had been crossed with various terriers to produce the combination of dauntless courage with agility and endurance which was even more necessary in the pit than the ring. At first, the resulting crossbreds, which must have been anything but uniform, were called "bull-and-terriers" and, as the best of them were used for breeding, a new breed was gradually evolved which became known as 'bull terriers." Some of these bull terriers took after their bulldog ancestors and were quite heavy "cloddy" dogs of up to 50 lbs in weight. Others, which took after the terriers, were only between 10 and 20 lbs. There was no "type", as the term is understood by modern dog-breeders. Men did not care what they looked like so long as they would fight; and, if they would not fight, they went in the water-butt no matter how good looking they were.

Between 1860 and 1870 these bull terriers were split into two camps. James Hinks, of Birmingham, who had always loved a game dog, produced a white strain which he registered at the Kennel Club as "English Bull Terriers". It is believed that they were produced by crossing the original bull terriers with Dalmatians, and much of their gameness was quickly sacrificed for looks, which was the only commodity paying dividends in the show ring. The original breed, which was still unspoilt by crossing with dogs which had not been bred for gameness, was now barred from the official title of Bull Terrier and it gradually became known as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier to distinguish it from the newer breed. The reason that Staffordshire was used as the qualifying term, to distinguish between the old and the new, was that the colliers and ironworkers of Staffordshire were so attached to dog-fighting that the sport became practically localised in the Midlands.

Half a century went by without the popularity of dog fighting waning, despite spasmodic brushes with the police. Nothing had been done to standardise any type, for courage and physical fitness were still the only things which mattered. Any dog which proved unusually successful in the pit was certain to be used as a sire irrespective of his looks and there was still a wide variation of types which have since become curiously localised. In the Walsall district it is common to find dogs of 34-38 lbs which are tall enough to convey a suggestion of whippet in their ancestry. My own theory of this is that a faint cross of bull terrier was sometimes used to impart endurance to whippets and it is possible that the offspring of one of these crosses displayed sufficient aptitude for fighting to have been crossed back to bull terriers, for agility in the pit is as necessary as courage. Only a few miles from Walsall, in the Darlaston district, the Staffords obviously favour their terrier forbears. They are much "finer" in the muzzle and obviously "terrier faced." They are smaller altogether and lighter boned, turning the scale at from 25-38 lbs, and occasionally] even lighter. The Darlaston men say all the others "must have been crossed with mastiff" and that "theirs" are the only real Staffords.

To confound them both, there is a third type to be found in the Cradley Heath area a few miles to the west. This time it is obvious that some members in the pedigree had more than a nodding acquaintance with a bulldog. Short, thick muzzle and broad skull, tremendous spring of ribs and breadth of chest, muscles which seem to be symbolic of power, everything combines to convey an impression of doggedness. This time agility has been sacrificed for strength and yet there is an unmistakable resemblance between all three types. The expression of the face is the same and the way the tail is carried drooping like a pump handle; the characteristic high-pitched staccato bark and the mincing springy walk, which emphasises the constant craving for action. Who can say that one type is "right" and the others "wrong"? Who can say that this dog is a "real" Stafford and that is not? Until very recent years, nobody minded very much so long as each was willing to give a good account in the pit. But that is changing now.

continued next post

[castle]

In 1935 it occurred to a band of owners that, as the police had become so extra-ordinarily fussy about dog-fighting since the Great War, it might be a good idea to arrange dog-shows as an alternative attraction. Accordingly, a schedule was drawn up to depict a scale of points for judging and the Kennel Club obliged by "recognising" the breed as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

It was natural that the men who drew up the scale of points should model their ideal from their own particular strains, which happened to be the "bulldoggy" type in favour in the Cradley Heath district. The result has been very far-reaching. Due to the publicity acquired from organised dog shows the popularity of Staffords has soared and their market value has been inflated in the same ratio. This attracted a new type of owner who is interested more in the value than the gameness of the breed, and who is loud in his assertion that the show type is "right" and that the show enthusiasts will "standardise" the breed and eradicate all which do not conform to the standard.

I feel very sorry about all this for I think it is a great pity to try to "breed out" all the types which do not conform to such an arbitrary standard. Fighting was the original purpose of the breed, yet all which do not waddle round the show ring without any display of fire are penalised. I have heard long arguments about which type is best for the pit. Some like the "reachey" dog, like the Walsall breed, because he can "fight down" on his adversary. Some like the stocky Cradley type because they are hard to knock off their feet. Some like the little terrier-like dogs which are so nippy and can do such damage by shaking. In the pit one triumphs today and another tomorrow. Despite the fact that failures were not given the opportunity to perpetuate their like, there were many good dogs of each type that there could have been nothing to choose for prowess. Yet the money to be by made by selling "pedigree" dogs is inducing owners not only to "standardise" to an arbitrary type but to exaggerate the points of that type, so that it appears more powerful by being thicker and lower to ground and bigger in skull than was any dog which fought in the pit.

This extraordinary variation in type of Staffords is by no means confined to physical appearance. All good Staffords are game, but some are essentially boisterous and rough while others are equally docile and gentle, both characteristics being passed on through strains as definitely as physical appearance. Two very famous dogs, which I happen to have known very well, exhibited these tendencies to a marked degree--Ch. Gentleman Jim and Great Bomber. Jim was all that his name implies, and generally speaking his offspring are tractable, intelligent and easily trained. Bomber on the other hand just could not keep still, was overflowing with boisterous friendliness and extremely headstrong. His type need an exceptionally firm (and occasionally heavy!) hand to control, whereas it is easy to hurt the gentler type's feelings and make them deeply offended with a few harsh words.

No dogs are physically tougher than Staffords, for they seem almost impervious to pain. I have seen my own bitch, which is "broken" to ferrets, go into the ferret pen to see what she can scrounge. One of the ferrets "pinned" her through the lip and hung on, which must have been pretty painful. Yet she didn't get annoyed or make any fuss but calmly came to find me to have it throttled off. It is this indifference to pain which makes them such peerless fighting dogs. Almost any dog will fight if he is winning, but it takes an exceptional dog to fight a long losing battle and then go back for more, when he has the chance not to; yet a good Stafford will go back so long as he can crawl across. Despite this the breed is not naturally pugnacious, and it is unusual for a Stafford to begin his first fight. He is either "set on" by someone or attacked and fights back in self defense. But once he (or she, for bitches will fight) has tried fighting there is nothing they would rather do. And that is why I advise no one but a real enthusiast to embark upon the ownership of one of these dogs. The man who wants a dog for a household pet, but who expects it to run loose and look after itself will soon regret his choice. I have known them run loose in the streets and play with other dogs for two or three years. But sooner or later they either get hurt playing or mixed up in someone else's quarrel and suddenly realise what fun they have missed. From that time forth they need no second invitation and they fight to kill. Neither water nor any of the usual remedies will part them and I have seen a dog fighting a collie twice his size in a canal, where the owner of the collie had thrown them to part them. But the terrier could not loose and they both very nearly drowned before we could get them out. And owners who are not enthusiastic are often averse to getting sufficiently mixed up in the bother to choke their dog off, which is the only effective way.

Anyone who is willing to take the necessary pains to train and exercise a potential handful of trouble will be amply rewarded by finding it far less onerous than he thought. He will get devotion undreamed of in lesser breeds-and "Stafford men" regard all other breeds as curs. He will get a dog which is a peerless companion for children, though it will be necessary to watch that he doesn't "help" too vigorously if his young master has a quarrel with a playmate. He will have a dog which is unbeatable on rats and will be game to have a go at any other quarry his master selects. Some Staffords have made very fine gun dogs but, oddly enough, a high proportion are gun-shy, though often not initially. My own bitch for instance, came shooting quite happily at the beginning of her first season. She gradually took a dislike to the gun and it almost seemed as if it wasn't the bang to which she objected but that she came to realise that something got killed when it went off and that my marksmanship wasn't so hot. Similarly many Staffords make fine water-dogs and I have seen them matched to beat spaniels and retrievers over a distance, but it is necessary to introduce them to water gradually and in warm weather, or they often will not take to it at all.

In a word, the Stafford is a dog of very exceptional character. Take great pains to develop it and direct it into useful channels and there is no breed in the world as good. Let it grow haphazard without training or care and you will have a villain whose only aim in life is to fight. "And to keep a fighting dog", they say, "you have to be a fighting man."

[castle]

Dear Sir,
I may as well begin by saying that I have had show bull terriers,coloured ones, and eventually i returned to my original love the Staffordshire.
Now the ordinary dog-man has no more idea than the man in the moon what the staffordshire looks like, or even what it is.I have been out with one and have been asked "what's that"? .There is some ridiculous talk of a Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club being formed.There is an equally absurd rumour that they might one day be put on a show bench. if, which is almost impossible this latter should occur, the same result as happened in another well known breed, ie the utter ruination of the character of the dogs will occur.
There are not 50 real Staffordshires in England - not 25 under 20 lbs.
They are a unique breed, whose history goes back into really early days of the Black country - the chainmakers dogs of Cradley Heath.They have one job and one job only - to fight.To fight one another, not to be set upon wretched rats in a pit etc.They have been bred for generations as dog fighters, and dog fighters alone.They go to norway and germany.Hamburg being a great centre.The genuine Staffordshire is a highly intellegent,sensible, clever dogbut his one idea in life is to have a scrap.If the alleged staffordshire has not that idea and weighs much over 20lbs,fit in his collarthen he is a coloured bull terrier, or as a close cross of that blood.
A genuine staffordshire in my opinion weighs about 20lbs has a head like a coal scuttle, has a jaw like a shark,turns his toes out, lies on his tummy with his hind legs flat out behind him, and once IN never lets go of his own free will.Colour all red, or all brindle, practically no white or fawn. I have seen a blue Staffordshire dog 17 1/2lbs pigeon blue - he is dead now
Lastly let me emphasise that a Staffordshire has no written pedigree, He is bred Bill x Fly to so and so's betsy. And tey will tell you, the old timers and some of the new timers, what the forebears did, and what their descendants can do today. Also the Staffordshire is emphatically not a coloured white.He is an entirely seperate breed.Some Kennel Club who's main idea is to cultivate the breed will therefore kill it once and for all.

yours etc.
Arthur Heald

[Atwater27]

Thanks everyone for your replies. These dogs seem pretty closely related to APBT and that intrigues me. I sent an email to this kennel to see if I could get some more information and I'll share with you what I got. This is the link for the kennel I emailed http://www.jajca.staffdata.co.uk/. They seem like really nice people. They gave me this link to check out http://www.staffords.co.uk/.

Are these the showy ones or the working ones?

The history on these dogs seems cut and paste from APBTs. Anyone know what sets the breeds apart?
The only thing that sets these breeds apart in my eyes is the ocean and America's facination with "bigger is better"

And a big LOL at the person talking about Amstaffs. These threads about Staffy Bulls pop up from time to time and there's always people that don't know the difference. I remember one time where the whole thread was people describing Amstaffs and it was a staffy bull thread.

[Mr.Billfold]

My old neighbors Chris and Whitney had a female Staffordshire Bull. her name was Sadie, she was about 25lbs maybe, half they size of most of the pitbulls in the area, but she was beautiful. Probably show blood, I cant say. I will say that I would love to see more 35-40 lbs gamebred APBTs that had the structure, and muscle tone of Sadie.....sadly, she was stolen and sold ......I slapped the guy that did it, but it didn't help get the dog back.

[Rebs]

The furthest you look in your pedigree will only lead you to dogs bred in England/Ireland.. Pilot, captain, Etc i guess you could say they were the OG.. LOLhttp://img221.imageshack.us/img221/6678/img066qt4.jpg

[JELLY]

heres a picture of terrys grip who as named in my previous post was a stafford x wheaton cross typical of why they can be called Irish Staffs , and below him a picture of a wheaton
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/castle_010/TerrysGrip01.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t33/castle_010/wheaton.jpg Can anyone shed some light on this dog ,terrrys grip

[Boze]

Not to venture too far off topic, but I wonder what is the root of this behavior. (Im guessinig it is rooted in dominance). My pup is going on six months now, and he is acting the same way. If I have him out front, and someone walks by with a pomerian, etc he will ignore them (unless they challenge him), but if its a American Bulldog, Rottweiler, another APBT, etc. he goes nuts trying to get to them. I was just curious if someone new precisely why?

BTW Titch_Pitbull those are beautiful dogs that you posted. I understand that they aren't your, but I just wanted to say thanks for posting. That black and white one (3rd picture down) looks especially serious!I actually asked someone this same question the other day and he gave me an answer that i prety much already thought when they see the little dogs they do not really feel threatened as they would towards bigger dogs

[Smithson]

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier

One of only two breeds named as 'Good with Children' in their breed standard by the UK Kennel Club from over 190 breeds.

The ONLYbreed that has 'Totally Reliable' in it's breed standard.

The 5th most popular dog in the UK

It's interesting that in the US the APBT and the Staff are considered the same breed. Whereas in other countries the Staff is a loved pet, while APBT's are considered 'killing machines'




In the UK APBTs are banned and sometimes they get experts to testify in court whether a particular dog is an APBT or a staff.

[K_Pitbull]

The red dog posted by titch is called Brandi her owner is on Bull Breeds Online under the username "Matty"

[irishpit]

theres a lot of staffies where i live and i would consider their personality pretty identical to the apbt as already stated great with kids, extremely human friendly,can be d.a, very tenacious,high pain thresh-hold i pretty much consider a staffie just a small apbt and think they come from the same history, no other breeds were bred into the pit dogs brought to the u.s so how could it be a separate breed? id consider them different strain of same breed

[coop-dog]

they are cool dogs this is mine @4monthshttp:/http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii306/westcoastboy/loulou/082.jpg/i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii306/westcoastboy/loulou/136.jpg

[ManiacKennel]

well imo they are from the same dogs at one time they just went diffrent ways and that is why they have a lil different look could a staff compete with a game bred apbt i dont think so but maybe some can as for the irsish staff comes from the ebtandsbt and apbt they could compete with a apbt cause they have been testing and working that stuff for awile so maybe i just know if some one brought a stafie to the bocks he better be sure about what that staff can do

[Titch_Pitbull]

Staffs are NOT ment to look like this

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/photos/staffbull296x265http://images.champdogs.co.uk/images/staffordshire-bull-terrier.jpg

They ARE ment to look like this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/slingaz/nicestaffy.jpg

Reminds you of a certain dog eh ;)

[Hells Bells]

I would love to own a staffie one day. The show bred stafford is still better than an overdone ambully. IMO

[mseebran]

I would love to own a staffie one day. The show bred stafford is still better than an overdone ambully. IMO


I agree 100%. A properly bred and built staffie is far better than an ambully. Yes a staff would be different to a game APBT, but it would be true to its breed and standard. I am a big fan of proper conformation, whether its a gamedog or not. "Why?", some might ask, because proper form is followed by proper function. An animal cannot fulfill the tasks it was meant to do if it isn't physically and mentally up to it.

[coop-dog]

Here is another pic of my staffy I know shes not everybodys cup a tea but I sure dig her http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii306/westcoastboy/birthday1619009.jpg

[OnionHead]

I love them I think they are the next best breed IMO

[oldtymer]

Staffords have been ruined by Show breeders

real staffords - http://www.staffordtribute.info/photogallery/index.html

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow086.jpg



http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r309/MATTBRANDI/DSC02783.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b133/rayabud/FE0242B23B.jpg?t=1176891312

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow085.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/3552/mastini%20show/mastinishow084.jpg
SECOND PICTURE DOWN THAT BITCH IS BRED DOWN FROM PROVEN WORKING STAFFS !!!
I KNOW THE LAD WHO BRED THAT AND HE ONLY BREEDS FROM PROVEN STOCK

[dannyboy]

here you go folks....my boy at 13 months ....hes mostly dublin red strain(which has no bull terrier or pitbull mixed into it).....havent began working on his fitness yet....but hes bred down from workers
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/jason1967/PICT0109.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/jason1967/PICT0104.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r136/jason1967/PICT0095.jpg

[performanceknls]

I loved my staffie bull. She ended up getting a rare seizure disorder that affects staffie's and we lost her early this year. They are very nice dogs with great drive when they are bred correctly.

Rogue with my APBT Tasha
Rogue was 30lbs
http://i38.tinypic.com/2epqagz.jpg

Rogue being silly
http://i35.tinypic.com/14ag3tt.jpg

[Atomic Dog]

Another Stafford from UK. 46lb in this picture and a complete nut case

http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/9/0/9/1/IMG_0001jpg_thumb.jpg (http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=24567&c=3)

http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/9/0/9/1/tmpphpgVsEk6_thumb.jpg (http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=25168&c=3)

[Bulldoghistorian]

best bloodline to look for would be psycho
there 3 kennels that come to mind
oxman, d-man or remo
that's it get it from there if u want something thats bred the way it is supposed to be bred