why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

[blue paul]

Why don't apbt's look like the pitbulls that first came over from england and ireland?

[BoiBoi]

how do u figure that they don't. Were u alive back then to see them firsthand? hmm....i highly doubt that so whats the point of this thread really, are u just trying to bash the breeding practices of generations past that created the dog we have today? I believe that the dogs that we have today that stayed true to form and can be traced back for generations are basically the same in appearance as what originally came over on the boat
YIS
B

[miakoda]

Because it is the American Pit Bull Terrier. The bulldog x terrier cross that was the norm in the UK was perfected here in America. Thus the name and any possible changes in the dogs. ;)

[Searcy Jeff]

Well said Miakoda. I too believe that the APBT was perfected here in America.

[blue paul]

Because it is the American Pit Bull Terrier. The bulldog x terrier cross that was the norm in the UK was perfected here in America. Thus the name and any possible changes in the dogs. ;)
so you think colby and such people new better than hundreds of years of breeding in england? because they call it american? they cross breed the dogs as they simply didn't have enough pure pitbulls from england to keep the breed going pure and made there own breed american pitbull.

[ABK]

There weren't "hundreds" years of breeding in the UK. The original bull & terrier cross took place roughly around 1835 & thousands of immigrants from the UK were emmigrating to the US in 1846.

[pennsooner]

so you think colby and such people new better than hundreds of years of breeding in england? because they call it american? they cross breed the dogs as they simply didn't have enough pure pitbulls from england to keep the breed going pure and made there own breed american pitbull.



If you know the answer then why ask a question about it in the first place? You seem to be trying to make an indirect sort of argument along the lines of "Stocky Staffybull type dogs are TRUE Pitbulls".


There were a LOT of factors that would account for the differences. But the main thing that happened when the dogs came to the US is they got bigger over time. And the reasons for that I would bet are that people had more room to keep the dogs and used them for more that JUST matching. A lot were likely to have to work as all purpose farm dogs as well and for that people need somewhat larger dogs.


The fact is that StaffyBulls from back in the day weren't near as short and wide as the are now a days, at least from the photos I've looked at. StaffyBulls getting so stocky is no doubt a result of the influence of the showring, where exaggeration is rewarded.

[BoogiemanBlood]

There weren't "hundreds" years of breeding in the UK. The original bull & terrier cross took place in the mid to late 1800s - the exact same time frame in which thousands of immigrants from the UK were emmigrating to the US.well put ABK. ;)

[ABK]

The fact is that StaffyBulls from back in the day weren't near as short and wide as the are now a days, at least from the photos I've looked at. StaffyBulls getting so stocky is no doubt a result of the influence of the showring, where exaggeration is rewarded.
This is true. Here is a link to a kennel who has working staffords. As you will see, their dogs are smaller than APBTs but do NOT resemble a bully type dog. In fact, to me they more resemble APBTs.

http://www.wmkennels.com/

[Iverson's Pits]

hmm...about a hundred years of human-selected breedings and unnatural evolution of a "breed"

[Suki]

I think due to the fact that in 1976, the A.D.B.A., was petitioned by the owners of the APBT breed, who all "possessed a very competitive spirit, to develop a standard on the breed by which conformation dog shows could be held", my feeling is the APBT actually wnet back to its original look/roots and not wandered from. Theses owners did not want a standard that copied or mimicked those of the UKC or AKC, or so it has been said.
So, a standard for the dogs that they owned and continued to breed for the traits of intelligence, character, loyalty, and the athletic conformation that the breed was originally bred for hundreds of years ago was formulated. Thereby, they could continue competition, in a legal endeavor. Thus, the formation of the A.D.B.A. Conformation Standard, which i feel "brings back " the true APBT. and yes, it IS hard to say if today's dogs look like ones from over 100 years ago, as all we can go by are pictures to look at.

However, prior to this:
during the depression in the 30's, the American Kennel Club added American Pit Bull Terriers to their registry under the name of Staffordshire Terriers. With this new name for the breed, they needed a standard. Yup a new "look". After visiting a few kennels, a committee headed by Wilfred T. Brandon chose Colby's Primo as a standard for the breed. (see below)



UKC 233-460

AKC 641-443

ADBA 500-01

http://www.colbypitbull.com/primo-web.gifWhelped May 29, 1935

Sire: Colby's Brandy

Dam: Colby's Mable



now ALL the crosses and mixes that we have today, well, that's entirely another story....;) and yeah, imo, they ALL look different....because they are not true APBT's.



here is Colby's Jerry: imo, he doesn't look so different...(and check out the date)
http://www.colbypitbull.com/jerry75.jpgColby's Jerry Whelped: Circa 1900
Sire: Colby's Pincher
Dam: Colby's Nancy

Perfect overall conformation

[dogged]

I love that photo of Colby's Jerry. Beautiful dog.

[blue paul]

[QUOTE=pennsooner]If you know the answer then why ask a question about it in the first place? You seem to be trying to make an indirect sort of argument along the lines of "Stocky Staffybull type dogs are TRUE Pitbulls".

no but more my type of dog! a old time staffordshire bred to old standards , bred in the country from were they originate! a dog thats a bull terrier but not a crossing , rather a way to describe the dog a bull looking terrier (the orignal bulldog) .

[Marty]

This is a game-dog site so it may not be for you then?

[blue paul]

This is true. Here is a link to a kennel who has working staffords. As you will see, their dogs are smaller than APBTs but do NOT resemble a bully type dog. In fact, to me they more resemble APBTs.

http://www.wmkennels.com/
GREAT LINK! they have some GREAT dogs! these are the real dogs! and im glad there not calling them american! my bitch is also a dublin red stain! do you know much about these dogs?

[blue paul]

here is Colby's Jerry: imo, he doesn't look so different...(and check out the date)
http://www.colbypitbull.com/jerry75.jpgColby's Jerry Whelped: Circa 1900
Sire: Colby's Pincher
Dam: Colby's Nancy

Perfect overall conformation
colbys jerry is GREAT! but im looking for more dogs that look like him! i don't beleive colbys's pincher is the sire! colbys pincher looks american bulldog bred.http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/8/4/5/0/DSC00547.JPG

[Suki]

http://www.colbypitbull.com/
it's right on his site..

[Marty]

Here I'll help ya ;)

http://www.staffybullterriers.com/forum/

[14rock]

I believe whole-heartedly, as has been proven time and time again, APBT's are more successful than the dogs they were created from. Your's is very similar to what people were using 200 years ago. Although that holds a certain nostalgic value, why work with something that has been proven ineffective in the face of change?

I may very well have a horse and buggy in the backyard I'm very proud of and ride. It may be one of the best damn horse and buggies still around today. However, is it still the best, or has it been out-dated? Does it compare to the Ferrari's and Bugatti's, Bentley's, or Aston Martin's we have today?

I have been told, in good confidence, Europe has some fantastic original staffords. Incredibly game, pure, and able to win from time and time. However, do they continually come out on top, when pitted against APBT's? I know a few have, but so have Kangals, Dobermans, and even the occasional mastiff or two.

Forced human evolution took place on this continent, which had different goals and specimins (for the most part) than the evolutions which took place on your side of the lake. In keeping with the reason these dogs were created, as the best fighting dog ever created, most Americans wen't that route while it seems many Europeans cared more about keeping their dogs "pure" from other yards, and most similar looking to the dogs of the past, as opposed to creating the absolute best fighting dog. There is no debating we may have lost some of the nostalgia, sacraficing it to come closer to the perfect fighting dog that was envisioned when these dogs were first bred. In much the same way, we lost some of the nostalgia of buggies and wooden wheels, in the quest of the best performing auto.

[CHATNJACK]

blue paul check your PM's.

[chloesredboy]

[QUOTE=pennsooner]If you know the answer then why ask a question about it in the first place? You seem to be trying to make an indirect sort of argument along the lines of "Stocky Staffybull type dogs are TRUE Pitbulls".

no but more my type of dog! a old time staffordshire bred to old standards , bred in the country from were they originate! a dog thats a bull terrier but not a crossing , rather a way to describe the dog a bull looking terrier (the orignal bulldog) .Staffordshire Terriers and American Pit Bull Terriers are TWO DIFFERENT breeds.Why are you trying to compare them?If you like staffy's so much why are you here on a site dedicated to American Pit Bull Terriers.That makes about as much sense as one of us joining a GSD site and putting down those dog's Because in our personal opinion they dont compare to our dogs.If you preffer Staffordshire Terriers ,thats cool,they are great dogs,BUT so are APBT ,so why would you come here just to put down the dogs we love and are proud of? Wouldn't your time be better spent talking with people who feel the same way you do ,rather than trying to convince us that our dogs are inferior ?Because I can tell you right now,THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

[max74]

GREAT LINK! they have some GREAT dogs! these are the real dogs! and im glad there not calling them american! my bitch is also a dublin red stain! do you know much about these dogs?
I don't know what you mean by real dogs? Seems to me like you're from england, biased, hung up on looks(which says a lots about you) and dont have a clue about having a real dog.

[realonebulldog]

Well said Miakoda. I too believe that the APBT was perfected here in America.The Bulldog, thousands of years selection. Where has he originated? Europe? America? Neither. Both cultures are too young. If we pursue his noble roots , in the end, we land with the oldest cultures of the world in East. The Indians and Persians which created also oldest and best game-fowl (Aseel fathers of the US. hatch fowl)) produced these small short-haired fighters . However where these dogs are selected according to her genetic task they survive the next centuries, the next millenniums.

[blue paul]

[QUOTE=14rock]I believe whole-heartedly, as has been proven time and time again, APBT's are more successful than the dogs they were created from. Your's is very similar to what people were using 200 years ago. Although that holds a certain nostalgic value, why work with something that has been proven ineffective in the face of change?

you people seem to take ALOT of advise from some old time COWBOYS! don't you think people in england would have tried the same cross's? you need to get an understanding of how BIG these dogs were in england at the time! these dogs were the sport of england just like football is now, so think how many people like football? (in england , soccar ) thats how many people liked dog fighting and blood sports. the QUEEN of are country would invite other kings etc to come over and look at are great little dogs as they indulged in there blood sports. There was a bulldog in england that was none to be over a 100x winner!!! cocky lloyds pilot an ENGLISH import was ment to of had INCOMPARABLE fighting spirit! colbys irish dog was none as the DEMON dog. are dogs were tested with about EVERY animal thought possible to test agaist including lion's , horses , apes , ape tied to a horses back , polar bear , she wolf and her cubs , wild ass , hyena and then there would have been things that wern't recorded. are dogs were a WAY of LIFE! using them in many ways to make money - bull baiting , ratting , badgering , dog fighting & breeding! when they would have came to your BIG old country there simply wasn't enough around to keep breeding pure so instead a few cowboys started making there own dogs and calling them american pitbulls just like american akita's , american stag hounds etc etc a selected person how thinks they know better by cross breeding or simply can't afford to get a pure breed.

[Sid Finster]

English! Do you speak it? 'Cause you sure don't write it worth a damn.

Staffybulls are fine dogs, but if they were such great fighters, people would fight them. If they were any good for hog hunting, people might hunt hogs with them. The fact that noone does either with a Staffybull should tell you something. Staffys don't exactly dominate weightpull or light the world on fire as bulldogs either. Staffys are neat dogs, but not APBTs.

And I thought the Blue Paul was a Scottish breed.

[max74]

[QUOTE=14rock]I believe whole-heartedly, as has been proven time and time again, APBT's are more successful than the dogs they were created from. Your's is very similar to what people were using 200 years ago. Although that holds a certain nostalgic value, why work with something that has been proven ineffective in the face of change?

you people seem to take ALOT of advise from some old time COWBOYS! don't you think people in england would have tried the same cross's? you need to get an understanding of how BIG these dogs were in england at the time! these dogs were the sport of england just like football is now, so think how many people like football? (in england , soccar ) thats how many people liked dog fighting and blood sports. the QUEEN of are country would invite other kings etc to come over and look at are great little dogs as they indulged in there blood sports. There was a bulldog in england that was none to be over a 100x winner!!! cocky lloyds pilot an ENGLISH import was ment to of had INCOMPARABLE fighting spirit! colbys irish dog was none as the DEMON dog. are dogs were tested with about EVERY animal thought possible to test agaist including lion's , horses , apes , ape tied to a horses back , polar bear , she wolf and her cubs , wild ass , hyena and then there would have been things that wern't recorded. are dogs were a WAY of LIFE! using them in many ways to make money - bull baiting , ratting , badgering , dog fighting & breeding! when they would have came to your BIG old country there simply wasn't enough around to keep breeding pure so instead a few cowboys started making there own dogs and calling them american pitbulls just like american akita's , american stag hounds etc etc a selected person how thinks they know better by cross breeding or simply can't afford to get a pure breed.

That paragraph^ was total bullshit. Another brit that hates americans.

[DryCreek]

This seems to be a 'my dog is better than your dog' type of argument in the making. :rolleyes:

I appreciate your passion blue paul, but you will probably find that most here have the same passion for their dogs. What works for you, and your beliefs about the same, may not hold a lot of water in a community dedicated to the APBT.

I've never been to Europe to see what's up with the dogs there, until that time I can't really say one way or another. All I know is that I have never seen, nor heard, anything that would lead me to believe that those dogs are better than what I've seen or heard about here. Until that happens, I'll remain steadfastly dedicated to my breed of choice, the American Pit Bull Terrier.

In fact, has not jolly old England banned the importation of the APBT? Are they not actually trying to eradicate any breed of dog with this type of history? What happened to the honor and respect that England had for these dogs?

Granted, all I hear is what is written in the papers, but it seems as if England would rather forget their history when it comes to this.

P.S.-before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, my heritage is purely English on my fathers side. He was a first generation Canadian so I have the right LOL ;)

P.P.S-To respond to the original question, many years of work went into improving on what was originally imported, with improvement comes change. :)

[max74]

I believe whole-heartedly, as has been proven time and time again, APBT's are more successful than the dogs they were created from. Your's is very similar to what people were using 200 years ago. Although that holds a certain nostalgic value, why work with something that has been proven ineffective in the face of change?

I may very well have a horse and buggy in the backyard I'm very proud of and ride. It may be one of the best damn horse and buggies still around today. However, is it still the best, or has it been out-dated? Does it compare to the Ferrari's and Bugatti's, Bentley's, or Aston Martin's we have today?

I have been told, in good confidence, Europe has some fantastic original staffords. Incredibly game, pure, and able to win from time and time. However, do they continually come out on top, when pitted against APBT's? I know a few have, but so have Kangals, Dobermans, and even the occasional mastiff or two.

Forced human evolution took place on this continent, which had different goals and specimins (for the most part) than the evolutions which took place on your side of the lake. In keeping with the reason these dogs were created, as the best fighting dog ever created, most Americans wen't that route while it seems many Europeans cared more about keeping their dogs "pure" from other yards, and most similar looking to the dogs of the past, as opposed to creating the absolute best fighting dog. There is no debating we may have lost some of the nostalgia, sacraficing it to come closer to the perfect fighting dog that was envisioned when these dogs were first bred. In much the same way, we lost some of the nostalgia of buggies and wooden wheels, in the quest of the best performing auto.
Great post man!14rock

[FearlessKnight]

I am speachless......(thank GOD)

you people seem to take ALOT of advise from some old time COWBOYS! don't you think people in england would have tried the same cross's? you need to get an understanding of how BIG these dogs were in england at the time! these dogs were the sport of england just like football is now, so think how many people like football? (in england , soccar ) thats how many people liked dog fighting and blood sports. the QUEEN of are country would invite other kings etc to come over and look at are great little dogs as they indulged in there blood sports. There was a bulldog in england that was none to be over a 100x winner!!! cocky lloyds pilot an ENGLISH import was ment to of had INCOMPARABLE fighting spirit! colbys irish dog was none as the DEMON dog. are dogs were tested with about EVERY animal thought possible to test agaist including lion's , horses , apes , ape tied to a horses back , polar bear , she wolf and her cubs , wild ass , hyena and then there would have been things that wern't recorded. are dogs were a WAY of LIFE! using them in many ways to make money - bull baiting , ratting , badgering , dog fighting & breeding! when they would have came to your BIG old country there simply wasn't enough around to keep breeding pure so instead a few cowboys started making there own dogs and calling them american pitbulls just like american akita's , american stag hounds etc etc a selected person how thinks they know better by cross breeding or simply can't afford to get a pure breed.

[san_j_v]

I guys, I have just been following this thread, found it quite interesting as I have spent a few years in England. One thing I do not understand is why so many of us here in the US think the hogs ppl breed here are staffy bulls. When I was over there I never saw anything like the blue stuff we have over here, the staffs they have there although shorter and of a more stocky appearance are by no means 80-100 pound mutts. At the same time by no mean are they APBT but damit I just hate it when people refer to the blue mutts as staffordshire bull terriers when they are not even that.

[coolhandjean]

This is true. Here is a link to a kennel who has working staffords. As you will see, their dogs are smaller than APBTs but do NOT resemble a bully type dog. In fact, to me they more resemble APBTs.

http://www.wmkennels.com/I really like this one on that site. http://www.wmkennels.com/gallery/groll.jpg

[screamin'eagle]

I think you may be confusing the "slang" terms staffy bull and bully. A staffy bull is a staffordshire bull terrier. A bully (American Bully), is as you said the dogs that are heavier, shorter (often blue) and of a more stocky appearance. Two different terms referring to two different breeds.

I guys, I have just been following this thread, found it quite interesting as I have spent a few years in England. One thing I do not understand is why so many of us here in the US think the hogs ppl breed here are staffy bulls. When I was over there I never saw anything like the blue stuff we have over here, the staffs they have there although shorter and of a more stocky appearance are by no means 80-100 pound mutts. At the same time by no mean are they APBT but damit I just hate it when people refer to the blue mutts as staffordshire bull terriers when they are not even that.

[EDOGZ818]

I believe whole-heartedly, as has been proven time and time again, APBT's are more successful than the dogs they were created from. Your's is very similar to what people were using 200 years ago. Although that holds a certain nostalgic value, why work with something that has been proven ineffective in the face of change?

I may very well have a horse and buggy in the backyard I'm very proud of and ride. It may be one of the best damn horse and buggies still around today. However, is it still the best, or has it been out-dated? Does it compare to the Ferrari's and Bugatti's, Bentley's, or Aston Martin's we have today?

I have been told, in good confidence, Europe has some fantastic original staffords. Incredibly game, pure, and able to win from time and time. However, do they continually come out on top, when pitted against APBT's? I know a few have, but so have Kangals, Dobermans, and even the occasional mastiff or two.

Forced human evolution took place on this continent, which had different goals and specimins (for the most part) than the evolutions which took place on your side of the lake. In keeping with the reason these dogs were created, as the best fighting dog ever created, most Americans wen't that route while it seems many Europeans cared more about keeping their dogs "pure" from other yards, and most similar looking to the dogs of the past, as opposed to creating the absolute best fighting dog. There is no debating we may have lost some of the nostalgia, sacraficing it to come closer to the perfect fighting dog that was envisioned when these dogs were first bred. In much the same way, we lost some of the nostalgia of buggies and wooden wheels, in the quest of the best performing auto.
VERY WELL SAID!

[Searcy Jeff]

The Bulldog, thousands of years selection. Where has he originated? Europe? America? Neither. Both cultures are too young. If we pursue his noble roots , in the end, we land with the oldest cultures of the world in East. The Indians and Persians which created also oldest and best game-fowl (Aseel fathers of the US. hatch fowl)) produced these small short-haired fighters . However where these dogs are selected according to her genetic task they survive the next centuries, the next millenniums. I didn't understand this at all. How does the bulldog relate to Asils?

[realonebulldog]

I didn't understand this at all. How does the bulldog relate to Asils? Very easy to understand .
Aseel are the oldest and best fight chickens and Bulldogs the best fighting dogs. There is Aseel in England and in America. Their true roots lie somewhere else. All old and really noble domestic animal races go back on the oldest cultures , e.g., greyhounds, Arabian horses, Aseel and in my opinion also Bulldogs. Then with the help of these ancient originals in runs to the time are many different domestic animal races resulted. This counts to horses, chickens, however, also dogs.Hard to understand ? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_21.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm119YYDE)

[Searcy Jeff]

Very easy to understand .
Aseel are the oldest and best fight chickens and Bulldogs the best fighting dogs. There is Aseel in England and in America. Their true roots lie somewhere else. All old and really noble domestic animal races go back on the oldest cultures , e.g., greyhounds, Arabian horses, Aseel and in my opinion also Bulldogs. Then with the help of these ancient originals in runs to the time are many different domestic animal races resulted. This counts to horses, chickens, however, also dogs.Hard to understand ? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_21.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm119YYDE) In the case of Asils, they did originate thousands of years ago. However, you said that its your opinion Bulldogs originated the same way. My first post in regards to the APBT never claimed that they originated anywhere. I concurred with Mia that they were perfected here in America. Again, keyword being perfected.

[14rock]

A few things that need to be clarified. English Staffs, are more similar to APBT's than they would be to what we consider "Staffs" in america (overdone, bred for looks, with little to no drive). Great little dogs. However, you cannot declare because one fantastic dog, over 100 years ago, when the sport had a fraction of the competition and knowledge it does today, has any real significance in modern times.

Secondly, this is not a strictly-APBT forum as has been said in this thread. It is for the education, of all "pitbull" type dogs, specifically working ones. The majority of English Staffs, are indeed working dogs.

[Titch_Pitbull]

Staffordtribute.info > for working staff's

http://www.staffordtribute.info/photogallery/index.html > Gallery

When I was in the UK I had a nice male bred down from Diamond Jim with a Little of Fiery Jacks Pet on the Dam's side.

[realonebulldog]

In the case of Asils, they did originate thousands of years ago. However, you said that its your opinion Bulldogs originated the same way. My first post in regards to the APBT never claimed that they originated anywhere. I concurred with Mia that they were perfected here in America. Again, keyword being perfected. I disagree. I dont think they were perfected.
I think maybe today we have as good workers like the Bulldogs which came between 1600 and 1850 with Irishmen Scots and Englishmen to America . Maybe. Maybe we have today dogs which show the quality of Galvins Pup. Maybe. I do not think the Clarks tramp or Ch Billy Sunday was a horse during today's APBTs are super-sport-cars. I think in most cases it is the other way round. Well however .... an important thing the Americans have made very right. They left her genetic task to the Bulldogs. Therefore, we also have even today dogs one can call Bulldogs without lying.

[blue paul]

Staffordtribute.info > for working staff's

http://www.staffordtribute.info/photogallery/index.html > Gallery

When I was in the UK I had a nice male bred down from Diamond Jim with a Little of Fiery Jacks Pet on the Dam's side.
my bitch has got fiery jack pet in her dam's side! hes in the photo gallery on the link above about a 3rd of the way through! i also LOVE the picture where the staffordhire is flying through the air at the american pitbull near the end , showing the true drive of a staffordhire bull.

[blue paul]

hears a nice link about different sorts of animal baiting in the days when kings and queens would come to watch are GREAT dogs battle. at the bottom is different links to diffierent types of baiting.
http://www.answers.com/topic/lion-baiting

[Searcy Jeff]

I disagree. I dont think they were perfected.
I think maybe today we have as good workers like the Bulldogs which came between 1600 and 1850 with Irishmen Scots and Englishmen to America . Maybe. Maybe we have today dogs which show the quality of Galvins Pup. Maybe. I do not think the Clarks tramp or Ch Billy Sunday was a horse during today's APBTs are super-sport-cars. I think in most cases it is the other way round. Well however .... an important thing the Americans have made very right. They left her genetic task to the Bulldogs. Therefore, we also have even today dogs one can call Bulldogs without lying.If America didn't perfect the APBT, then name a country that has better quality dogs than the US. How come we export dogs to other countries. I know there are quality dogs in Mexico and the Balkans but where do you think these countries got their dogs from? Yes, America started with imported dogs, but over time they perfected them. They didn't originated in America, but sure as hell was perfected here.

[PirbulBongo]

Breed evolutioned into perfect working machine. Simple as that. UK deserves its credit for being the origen of those crosses and USA for perfecting those dogs.

Now we could talk how those dogs came to UK and we would enter on origins and theory's world :P

[blue paul]

If America didn't perfect the APBT, then name a country that has better quality dogs than the US. How come we export dogs to other countries. I know there are quality dogs in Mexico and the Balkans but where do you think these countries got their dogs from? Yes, America started with imported dogs, but over time they perfected them. They didn't originated in America, but sure as hell was perfected here.
can you tell me how they perfected the breed? what breeds did they introduce to the breed to make them better fighters?

[BoiBoi]

can you tell me how they perfected the breed? what breeds did they introduce to the breed to make them better fighters?
excuse me but why do keep insisting that staffordshire bull terriers are better match dogs then apbt's. Its been proven that they are not so why continue to instigate the issue.

[blue paul]

excuse me but why do keep insisting that staffordshire bull terriers are better match dogs then apbt's. Its been proven that they are not so why continue to instigate the issue.my dogs are not 14-16inch fat little woddles of poo (bulldog crossed , early bullys). there old time dogs measureing upto old time standards 17-19inch. the way there ment to be before being crossed to any breed that slightly resembles a pitbull.

[BoiBoi]

my dogs are not 14-16inch fat little woddles of poo (bulldog crossed , early bullys). there old time dogs measureing upto old time standards 17-19inch. the way there ment to be before being crossed to any breed that slightly resembles a pitbull.
what are u even talking about, have u ever seen a real american pitbull terrier? I'm sorry but the dogs in ur gallery would be labeled a pitbull in this country in a heart beat. regardless of what standard ur dogs meet, it doesn't mean that they are superior to todays standard of a gamebred pitbulldog.

Here's a pic of one of the modern day greats, i hightly doubt any of ur "old time bulldogs" would even come close to him, GR. CH. Machobuck
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/3/9/5/1/MachoBuck.jpg

[FearlessKnight]

what are u even talking about, have u ever seen a real american pitbull terrier? I'm sorry but the dogs in ur gallery would be labeled a pitbull in this country in a heart beat. regardless of what standard ur dogs meet, it doesn't mean that they are superior to todays standard of a gamebred pitbulldog.

Here's a pic of one of the modern day greats, i hightly doubt any of ur "old time bulldogs" would even come close to him, GR. CH. Machobuck
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/3/9/5/1/MachoBuck.jpg
NOW THATS A BADASS AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER!
Absolutely beautamous!

[Michele]

what are u even talking about, have u ever seen a real american pitbull terrier? I'm sorry but the dogs in ur gallery would be labeled a pitbull in this country in a heart beat. regardless of what standard ur dogs meet, it doesn't mean that they are superior to todays standard of a gamebred pitbulldog.

Here's a pic of one of the modern day greats, i hightly doubt any of ur "old time bulldogs" would even come close to him, GR. CH. Machobuck
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/3/9/5/1/MachoBuck.jpg
that is perfection.....that really is.

[BoogiemanBlood]

what are u even talking about, have u ever seen a real american pitbull terrier? I'm sorry but the dogs in ur gallery would be labeled a pitbull in this country in a heart beat. regardless of what standard ur dogs meet, it doesn't mean that they are superior to todays standard of a gamebred pitbulldog.

Here's a pic of one of the modern day greats, i hightly doubt any of ur "old time bulldogs" would even come close to him, GR. CH. Machobuck
http://www.game-dog.com/gallery/files/3/9/5/1/MachoBuck.jpgboiboi that is a great pic and a great post! obviously we are dealing with someone who has a hang up here. he's just a goof looking for trouble obviously. beautiful pic of a beautiful dog! who would believe it was made right here in the old USA and could mop the floor with "irish imports"

[realonebulldog]

If America didn't perfect the APBT, then name a country that has better quality dogs than the US. How come we export dogs to other countries. I know there are quality dogs in Mexico and the Balkans but where do you think these countries got their dogs from? Yes, America started with imported dogs, but over time they perfected them. They didn't originated in America, but sure as hell was perfected here. Well, thats exactly the point. What would you say if
one day Russia or Balkan people say: We got Bulldogs from America and have perfected these dogs. What would you say? Right! You would say: These dogs were already perfect ! And you would be right because the same counts for the Bulldogs that came once to Amerika. They were already perfect. Why? Because her genetic task was called fight. The immigrants knew this (better than most today's Americans) and preserved this tradition and with it the Bulldogs up to today. Thank you America. Thank you Russia. Thank you the Balkans. Thank you Japan. Thank you to all who know the genetic task of these dogs and preserve them. The legend lives!

[BoiBoi]

Well, thats exactly the point. What would you say if
one day Russia or Balkan people say: We got Bulldogs from America and have perfected these dogs. What would you say? Right! You would say: These dogs were already perfect ! And you would be right because the same counts for the Bulldogs that came once to Amerika. They were already perfect. Why? Because her genetic task was called fight. The immigrants knew this (better than most today's Americans) and preserved this tradition and with it the Bulldogs up to today. Thank you America. Thank you Russia. Thank you the Balkans. Thank you Japan. Thank you to all who know the genetic task of these dogs and preserve them. The legend lives!
NO sir, the dogs were perfected when they crossed the ocean and arrived in america. This is a proven fact because there are no original bulldogs in europe that could compare to todays modern day apbt. When they were first imported over they were basically the same dogs as in europe, but after years of selective breeding and hard testing they have become the supreme warrior, the AMERICAN pitbull terrier
YIS
B

[Searcy Jeff]

Well, thats exactly the point. What would you say if
one day Russia or Balkan people say: We got Bulldogs from America and have perfected these dogs. What would you say? Right! You would say: These dogs were already perfect ! And you would be right because the same counts for the Bulldogs that came once to Amerika. They were already perfect. Why? Because her genetic task was called fight. The immigrants knew this (better than most today's Americans) and preserved this tradition and with it the Bulldogs up to today. Thank you America. Thank you Russia. Thank you the Balkans. Thank you Japan. Thank you to all who know the genetic task of these dogs and preserve them. The legend lives!I think you confused yourself. Yes they were bred to fight because humans selectively bred them this way. Dogs that were originally imported here were definitely game but you are missing the point. Just because the dog carried the "fighting genes," that doesn't mean they were already perfected. The early dogs were the foundation of what the APBT is now. They were perfected here over time because great dogmen of the past and present, bred and tested them to the quality that they are now. Name 5 dogs that was bred and showed outside of America that made an impact on the gamedog world.

[coolhandjean]

English! Do you speak it? 'Cause you sure don't write it worth a damn.

Staffybulls are fine dogs, but if they were such great fighters, people would fight them. If they were any good for hog hunting, people might hunt hogs with them. The fact that noone does either with a Staffybull should tell you something. Staffys don't exactly dominate weightpull or light the world on fire as bulldogs either. Staffys are neat dogs, but not APBTs.

And I thought the Blue Paul was a Scottish breed.I looked it up. From what I've found they are Scottish. I also found this info.
"No one seems to have full knowledge as to how the Blue Pauls were bred or from where they originally came. There was a story that John Paul Jones, the American sailor, brought them from abroad and landed some when he visited his native town of Kirkcudbright about 1770.The Gypsies around the Kin Tilloch district kept Blue Pauls, which they fought for their own amusement. They were game to the death and could suffer much punishment. They were expert and tricky in their fighting tactics, which made them great favorites with those who indulged in this sport. They maintained that the breed originally came from the Galloway coast, which lends support to the Paul Jones legend. The first dogs to arrive in the United States with the English immigrants in the mid-19th century were the Blue Paul Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier."

[CHATNJACK]

blue paul did you get my PM's ???

[realonebulldog]

NO sir, the dogs were perfected when they crossed the ocean and arrived in america. This is a proven fact because there are no original bulldogs in europe that could compare to todays modern day apbt. When they were first imported over they were basically the same dogs as in europe, but after years of selective breeding and hard testing they have become the supreme warrior, the AMERICAN pitbull terrier
YIS
BThe APBT is T H E American national dog. Absolutely no doubt. However, I do not believe this the today's dogs are better than they of 1960, in 1860, in 1760, or 1660. If they are so good even today as at that time then all have done one really good job. I think if we could get an original Bulldog from 1700 in our time then many fast-lane dogman would be very surprised . Also at that time there were great dogmen....

[BoiBoi]

The APBT is T H E American national dog. Absolutely no doubt. However, I do not believe this the today's dogs are better than they of 1960, in 1860, in 1760, or 1660. If they are so good even today as at that time then all have done one really good job. I think if we could get an original Bulldog from 1700 in our time then many fast-lane dogman would be very surprised . Also at that time there were great dogmen....
I disagree with u for the most part, because of today's technology we have the chance to perfect the breed as we know it. I believe today's bulldog is by far the most superior warrior of all time. Yes the bulldogs of the past were great dogs but to me its like comparing apples to oranges, they are completely different dogs at this time. Correct me if im wrong but i do believe that the first bull and terrier cross wasn't established until the late 1800's which would lead me to believe that todays american pitbull terrier is in comparison a fairly new breed to this world, however over the past 100 or so years the american gamedog breeders have perfected upon the past and now we have what we all know and love, the apbt

[realonebulldog]

I think you confused yourself. Yes they were bred to fight because humans selectively bred them this way. Dogs that were originally imported here were definitely game but you are missing the point. Just because the dog carried the "fighting genes," that doesn't mean they were already perfected. The early dogs were the foundation of what the APBT is now. They were perfected here over time because great dogmen of the past and present, bred and tested them to the quality that they are now. Name 5 dogs that was bred and showed outside of America that made an impact on the gamedog world.You know many extremely good Bulldogs are bred outside America . In Russia, Romania, Yugoslavia, however, also in Holland. These lands have received good blood from America and select hard. The descendants of these dogs have also defeated quite American dogs. Are the American dogs now worse because, e.g., Yugoslavs have her dogs perfected? No. But they are on a high level because they 1.) have good blood 2.) are properly selected.The same applies to America. Approx. 300 years ago America 1.) has receive good blood 2.)has properly selected. I think dogs from the past could wipe some dogs from today and dogs from today could wipe some dogs from the past. You cant increase the efficiency with the help of selection till infinite ones. Up to a certain level. The art insists in it on holding this level. For example, Galvins Pup was on the uppermost level. If you have today a dog like this real old-timer .....well, you are in the running.:)

[realonebulldog]

I disagree with u for the most part, because of today's technology we have the chance to perfect the breed as we know it. I believe today's bulldog is by far the most superior warrior of all time. Yes the bulldogs of the past were great dogs but to me its like comparing apples to oranges, they are completely different dogs at this time. Correct me if im wrong but i do believe that the first bull and terrier cross wasn't established until the late 1800's which would lead me to believe that todays american pitbull terrier is in comparison a fairly new breed to this world, however over the past 100 or so years the american gamedog breeders have perfected upon the past and now we have what we all know and love, the apbt 1.) APBT = The one and only Bulldog 2.) Leave me allone with this Bull and Terrier crap.
This is an invention of the exhibit breeders. 3.) I know and love Bulldogs. If you dont know Bulldogs...your Beer.:)

[BoiBoi]

1.) APBT = The one and only Bulldog 2.) Leave me allone with this Bull and Terrier crap.
This is an invention of the exhibit breeders. 3.) I know and love Bulldogs. If you dont know Bulldogs...your Beer.:)
um...........ok :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Searcy Jeff]

You know many extremely good Bulldogs are bred outside America . In Russia, Romania, Yugoslavia, however, also in Holland. These lands have received good blood from America and select hard. The descendants of these dogs have also defeated quite American dogs. Are the American dogs now worse because, e.g., Yugoslavs have her dogs perfected? No. But they are on a high level because they 1.) have good blood 2.) are properly selected.The same applies to America. Approx. 300 years ago America 1.) has receive good blood 2.)has properly selected. I think dogs from the past could wipe some dogs from today and dogs from today could wipe some dogs from the past. You cant increase the efficiency with the help of selection till infinite ones. Up to a certain level. The art insists in it on holding this level. For example, Galvins Pup was on the uppermost level. If you have today a dog like this real old-timer .....well, you are in the running.:) You are naming the above countries but I have yet to see you give me the name of 5 dogs that made an impact on the gamedog world. What's their production record? Where and who were the dogs campaigned into? Has any dogmen of today or the past imported dogs from these countries? Yes, these dogs in Europe might be of high quality but they are by no means perfected. You can't perfect something that has already been perfected.

England set the foundation and America completed it. Its that simple. :)

How are you sure that Galvin's Pup was at the "uppermost" level? I don't think you were around then and you probably read about him. I think that dogs from the 1960's-Present are of better quality than the past. In those early days it was easy for a dog to dominate an area, region or state due to the lack of transportation, quality dogs and dogmen. Nowadays with up-to-date nutrition and knowledge, today's dog have a leverage over the earlier ones.

[koening]

Well I am not saying these dogs where not imported from the US , but hell , it's where you can find the best blood. :D From Europe I can say some dogs that made an impact , but they where all imported from America , or had a third or 4th gen parents from the US :
Ch Alizin's Luther
Ch Bad Rosemary
bouth i think from STP's yard.
Ch Gipsy from Yu
Mr Indian also from Yu that has Buck blood and is a proven producer.

There are great dogs acros the ocean , but , they are imported , i agree. And , why not start with quallity , and then try to improve from there :D.

[realonebulldog]

Ok you won. Amerika has perfectet this dogs. The first dogs from England, Scotland and Irland were mutts....a yes and Galvins Pup was a mutt. But thats not what I believe. We have simply differend points of view. Thats ok. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_112.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm119YYDE)

[Searcy Jeff]

Ok you won. Amerika has perfectet this dogs. The first dogs from England, Scotland and Irland were mutts....a yes and Galvins Pup was a mutt. But thats not what I believe. We have simply differend points of view. Thats ok. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_112.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm119YYDE)I never said they were mutts. I'm not trying to win. I just like debates. Different points of view are good. :)

[realonebulldog]

I never said they were mutts. I'm not trying to win. I just like debates. Different points of view are good. :) Man you are like my Ex-wife. Always the last word. I hate that. Btw what do you think about Searcy Jeff...let me gues, he was just average, today are over 80 % of ouer Bulldogs better than him. They are perfected.....:D

[Searcy Jeff]

Man you are like my Ex-wife. Always the last word. I hate that. Btw what do you think about Searcy Jeff...let me gues, he was just average, today are over 80 % of ouer Bulldogs better than him. They are perfected.....:D ROFLMAO. You stated that the early dogs and Galvin's Pups were mutts and that wasn't what you believed. Trying to put words in my mouth. And the last word? Lol. Don't compare me to your ex-wife please. If you can't handle debates, don't jump in threads then. I said I liked debates, if you know what that means.

What I think about Searcy Jeff? I liked what I've read about him enough to use his name. Never said he was better than today's dogs. Go back and re-read my posts. I said different views are good.

[lockjaw]

i dont know if the dogs of today are better..or if the bar of today is set alot lower...Many great dogs rotted on the chain because of the great dogmen that went after easier fish.mason.

[Titch_Pitbull]

I think it would be pure arrogance to state that americans have perfected the breed and have the best APBT's in the world.

[purplepig]

I think it would be pure arrogance to state that americans have perfected the breed and have the best APBT's in the world.
Why do you say that? Is it arrogant to say that the US is the most powerful nation on the planet at the moment? Why? We to police the world.
So could it be that these two statements are not arrogance, but simply fact?

[lockjaw]

Why do you say that? Is it arrogant to say that the US is the most powerful nation on the planet at the moment? Why? We to police the world.
So could it be that these two statements are not arrogance, but simply fact?what was the topic again..oh yeah..why dont present dogs look like past dogs?
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=65472

i like old dogs..above is a good old dog.

[realonebulldog]

what was the topic again..oh yeah..why dont present dogs look like past dogs?
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=65472

i like old dogs..above is a good old dog. Pure stuff...thats a good ole real-one, for sure. Would like to know what his weight was, looks to me like 37-42 pounds. I really need a time-machine....http://ak.imgfarm.com//images/today/creators/bs/bs0923g.gif