Best ZEBO stud

[Gamest]

Who do yall think desreves this tilte ( EXCLUDIN JOE BLACK ) ??????

[LA_Headhunters]

Thunder Kennels Gator and Bone's Yard Grunt are some good ones.

[KnottyBoyNC]

I havent seen a good Zebo stud in years. they say all the good Zebo stuff is dead. all the good stuff has been outcrossed til the name Zebo is fearless. I've seen people claiming 2 have all these different color Zebo dogs. Zebo dogs are black. U cant keep the name while destroying the fame!

[GAPITS]

just to let you know that zebos dogs did and still do come in more than black, there are a great many good red zebo dogs out there. there are several good studs out the from this line and bred properly there will be many more.

[KnottyBoyNC]

just to let you know that zebos dogs did and still do come in more than black, there are a great many good red zebo dogs out there. there are several good studs out the from this line and bred properly there will be many more.
As a moderator i would expect you 2 know that it is geneticly impossible for pure Zebo dogs to be red or white or even brindle. Many of these so called "pure Zebo" dogs have pedigrees that are fake. I acquired this knowledge from an article by Barney Fife.

[Aurora]

If Barney Fife wrote it then it must be true http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[duece]

As a moderator i would expect you 2 know that it is geneticly impossible for pure Zebo dogs to be red or white or even brindle. Many of these so called "pure Zebo" dogs have pedigrees that are fake. I acquired this knowledge from an article by Barney Fife.
not to discredit anything the great barney fife has said or to insult you by any means...BUT zebo's FULL brother(vindicator)was a red/red nose. so therefore zebo either has the BB genetic trait(meaning he doesn't carry the red nose trait) or the Bb trait(meaning he does carry the trait). none of us really know but by seeing all of the heavy zebo dogs that are red/red nose he probally has the Bb trait.

you say that a lot of the peds are fake, this very well could be the truth. honestly i don't know, i'm not a huge zebo fan nor do i carry any of this blood, but like i said if his full brother is a red/red nose then he very well could throw red/red nose dogs(even if bred to a black dog, provided she also carries the red/red nose trait). like i said i'm not a huge zebo fan so i don't know all the stories of this line so your statement about hung papers could be right on the money just from the genetic stance it IS possible for there to be red/rednosed zebo dogs...with respect

[dmd66]

there a lot of fake stuff out there i just hope you don't get suck with it

a href="http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=134592

As a moderator i would expect you 2 know that it is geneticly impossible for pure Zebo dogs to be red or white or even brindle. Many of these so called "pure Zebo" dogs have pedigrees that are fake. I acquired this knowledge from an article by Barney Fife.

[KnottyBoyNC]

not to discredit anything the great barney fife has said or to insult you by any means...BUT zebo's FULL brother(vindicator)was a red/red nose. so therefore zebo either has the BB genetic trait(meaning he doesn't carry the red nose trait) or the Bb trait(meaning he does carry the trait). none of us really know but by seeing all of the heavy zebo dogs that are red/red nose he probally has the Bb trait.

you say that a lot of the peds are fake, this very well could be the truth. honestly i don't know, i'm not a huge zebo fan nor do i carry any of this blood, but like i said if his full brother is a red/red nose then he very well could throw red/red nose dogs(even if bred to a black dog, provided she also carries the red/red nose trait). like i said i'm not a huge zebo fan so i don't know all the stories of this line so your statement about hung papers could be right on the money just from the genetic stance it IS possible for there to be red/rednosed zebo dogs...with respect
Zebo Dogs
by Barney Fife

My association with Zebo dogs started in 1976 and have always had some of this blood in my bulldogs. Unfortunately Zebo bred dogs have not been able to compete and win against decent competition for many years. Fanciers who seriously campaign their dogs have not been able to win with dogs from this family for quite a while.

There are a large number of fanciers who advertise Zebo bred dogs for sale none of these dogs have won even a single match. In addition many of the so called "pure Zebo" dogs have pedigrees that are fake. So you will see so called Zebo dogs that are red & white or even brindle which is a genetic impossibility.

I do not believe that you can have more than 1/4 Zebo blood and not have a serious problem with gaminess and lack of endurance the two major draw backs of this line.

Fanciers associate Zebo dogs with the power and hard mouth this strain had 15 years ago. Unfortunately there are no Zebo dogs today with these traits. There are plenty of fanciers who will claim to have high ability Zebo dogs but "NONE" have won any matches. It is all just a lot of talk.

There are a few good Zebo crosses that can still compete and win against good competition. My Dylan bred dogs, CH Dillenger, and GR CH Jinx are three Zebo crosses that won over good competition.

This winter I will breed my Vespers to GR CH Jinx. I own three dogs by Jinx x Juan's Mamba who is a 3/4 sister to Vesper and three out of four of these pups will be shown. Vespers is a vastly superior quality bitch than Mamba so I expect even better results. These dogs can compete and win against anything.

After the Zebo/Vindicator dogs were no longer able to compete by the mid 1980's Panther appeared. I conditioned and handled Panther to his only win. This was a really bad ass Zebo cross and he restored my interest in this line. However the Panther dogs have died off with nothing from this line being able to compete today. So even the Panther bred dogs are not good quality any more.

Try to find one Zebo bred dog that has won a legitimate show against decent competition. You will spend a lot of time trying to find a single winner. You wont even be able to find a game looser, because this line is not able to compete any more. All you will find are beautiful Pedigreed dogs that can not compete even against bottom level competition. I know this is not good news but I hope it will save you time and money. Few fanciers know this strain better than me. Ask around and see what you hear, even in their day Zebo dogs were a low percentage strain and now they are a zero percentage strain. All that is left are some crossess that can still win. There are not many of these quality Zebo crosses still around.

Final words from the late Barney Fife submitted to Pits Magazine before his sudden death on March 4th 1998

[KnottyBoyNC]

there a lot of fake stuff out there i just hope you don't get suck with it

a href="http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=134592
what do u mean by that?

[powder925]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=80113

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=78380

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=107592

[KnottyBoyNC]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=80113

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=78380

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=107592Whats the purpose of these pedigrees? Vindicator runs the first ped. I dont see how you would consider the other 2 Zebo, especially the last.........???.....

I would consider you reading the article

[erik114]

Why not call Lonzo he claims in the last issue of the Gazette that he has the best Zebo Blood around

[KnottyBoyNC]

Why not call Lonzo he claims in the last issue of the Gazette that he has the best Zebo Blood around
Yea i read that but how can he say he has the best Zebo blood around when his dogs have Vindicator on the bottom. Hes not flowing that "pure Zebo" blood....R.I.P Barney Fife!

[misterdogman]

Who do yall think desreves this tilte ( EXCLUDIN JOE BLACK ) ??????Red Boy Banger...Hes still young...But he is a Bone Crusher producing the same like him....He might go back to some Lonzo stuff I forget but for some reason I think he is real tight vindicator...Ill have to double check his ped...

[misterdogman]

Whats the purpose of these pedigrees? Vindicator runs the first ped. I dont see how you would consider the other 2 Zebo, especially the last.........???.....

I would consider you reading the articleWell I guess a lot of people lump all them under 1 name and call 'em Zebo...I hear a lot of people doing it and I do it a lot too...probaly a bad habit

[thablacksheep]

has anyone heard the rumor of zebo actually being the son of eli?

[440rider]

here's one off zebo that put out a few:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=2313

[TinMan]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=62558


I never knew that RedBoy Banger was a ZEBO dog LMAO !! His crosses are great and Mr. Husband has done well with his dogs. What's the matter w/Joe Black anyway ??

[GameKid16]

is this barney fife, the same one from the T.V show??

[DEACON ROM]

is this barney fife, the same one from the T.V show??lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crash97]

is this barney fife, the same one from the T.V show??lmao....yep little known fact both Barney and Andy were real into the dogs.

[Gamest]

No gamekid he was a dogman from tha past. A pretty good one from what i hear.

[misterdogman]

Why not call Lonzo he claims in the last issue of the Gazette that he has the best Zebo Blood aroundWe had Underwood a Lonzo dog off Lonzos Head and Black girl,He was the only Pup in the litter and Mr. Arrington named him Underwood because he found him under wood near his moms house... he had a real good mouth to bite pigs but he had worse endurance than any pig I ever seen, he couldn't run down the street 1/4 mile, jeez I can do more than that drunk... and he had a clean bill of health from the vet like 3 times, he even quit playing with a pig in 24 minutes after being well prepared for more than that, thats barely warming up, He quit on his feet... He was the 4th Zebo/Lonzo dog ...I seen and I didn't like the wind factor in any of them. All were black except him he was red. He had 1 nut. I just thought that would be funny to add. I always believed you werent suppose to breed them when they have 1 nut. Some say they do if they are game... if you can because sometimes they are sterile from the over breeding that caused the genetic problem. I wouldn't use any Lonzo studs. JMO

[SWAMPER]

zebo's FULL brother(vindicator)was a red/red nose. so therefore zebo either has the BB genetic trait(meaning he doesn't carry the red nose trait) or the Bb trait(meaning he does carry the trait).

[btlover]

Here is a nice one http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=201023&myPedigrees=1

Not all Zebo but real nice dog.

[ABK]

Error. Please see post below.

[ABK]

OK, guys, here is my .02 on the matter & you can take it for what it's worth. About .02! :D

I do not believe the rumor about Zebo being off Eli. The reason is b/c Zebo is the spitting image of his sire Andy. However ... in some old pit dog mags Andy himself (not Zebo) is shown as having an unknown pedigree. So perhaps Andy is off Eli, but I doubt Zebo is.

As for color, to my knowledge, the B series does not control red/rednose. B (dominant) produces black & b (recessive) produces brown, like a chocolate lab color. There are however, chocolate Zebo dogs, but that's another story for another time.

Red is found in the "E" series, but it is still recessive to black. I could be wrong, but Zebo was probably BBEe. This would account for the story of Zebo never throwing anything but black, but his offspring going on to throw red.

(see this link for more info on color : http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html)

As for Lonzo (& others) calling Vindicator bred dogs "Zebo" dogs, this is done for one simple reason. Yes, the dogs are heavier on Vindy than Zebo. But Lonzo not only used Zebo, he used Zebo's littermates, half sibs, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. in his breedings. So while others lines like the Luniewski line for example, have more Zebo by the numbers, Lonzo dogs have more of Zebo's component blood & are usually have smaller %s of outcross blood. Hence his claim of "pure" Zebo dogs.

As for Zebo dogs being poor winded, this indeed can be a concern in the line. This is b/c there are breeders (to include Mr. Pratt himself it appears) are breeding for the ever-so-popular short & stocky look. You get newbs who go out & get one of these slab-sided, big headed, pug faced dogs & expect what is basically a Gotti dog in miniature to do a game dog's work.

Both Lonzo & Luniewski dogs can have have pugged muzzles &/or elongated soft palates. This greatly hinders breathing & like any brachycephalic breeds the dogs simply cannot tolorate heat or stress. As such, you get a lot of dogs who are just physically unable to do the work put in front of them. It would be like asking a midget w/ untreated asthma to win the Boston Marathon in 100 degree heat. It's just not going to happen. (No offense to any asthmatic midgets out there, I'm just using that as an example.)

However, if you get a Zebo dog from one of the few breeders actually keeping the "old style" of dog, breathing is not a big concern & you can get a very good dog who can go the distance & then some if he chooses to. In fact, there is an old saying out there (I forgot by whom) that is you get a good Zebo dog, you can bet your house & farm on it. So yes, while there is a lot of substandard dogs out there, if you get a well bred good Zebo dog, hold onto to it b/c it will be a sho 'nuff good dog.

As for the stuff being crossed out, yes, a lot of it is. But for good reason. The Zebo blood will add good solid punch to almost any line. This is why you see folks crossing the Zebo blood like they do. I have heard crossing 1/2 Zebo & 1/4th Zebo can produce some incredible dogs.

As for who is the "best" Zebo stud, that is a matter of opinion. There are several good dogs out there & what you may think is the "best" may not be the best in other people's eyes. Some good ones I like are Thunder Kennel's Gator & Stanfield's Black Preacher. Taylor's CH. Beefcake has also produced some super nice ones. Another one a lot of ppl like is Lonzo's Snake. I also like Clemmon's N. Toby, Chubrock's Joe Black & Lonzo's CH. Buba of course. ;) But all of them are deceased, so I guess they wouldn't count as I assume the OP was talking about the best Zebo stud living.

Well, I think I went over my .02 limit. Hope it helped.

[toddrock]

(No offense to any asthmatic midgets out there, I'm just using that as an example.)

LMAO...great post very informative!

[Iron Mike]

Well the fact is, HE WAS OFF ELI!

Before Bob Wallace passed away I was talking to him and he told Zebo was off Eli.
I remember when Eli was stolen from John Cotton in Chattanooga TN.

As ABK often refers to Floyd, I called Floyd and he also said the same thing but Bob claimed it was Vaughn from the Carolinas who stole Eli.

So I called the person who would know first hand and ask him.
I called Mountain Man who I knew for many years.
I asked him the same question and he said YES!
"That is where Zebo came from!"

Davey offered Zebo to us for free back in the early 80's after that Geo mag came out about everyone in the Midwest. Also the dog was a man bitter and like to have killed David's baby by nearly ripping his face off.
The heat was on so hard and with all the known things about Zebo we declined.

One question, how many of you ever even seen Zebo?
Or how many of you saw any sons or daughters directly off him go (sired by him)?

BTW Vindicator and Roise never produced dogs which looked like Zebo unless Zebo was in the pedigree and Andy did NOT look like Zebo, he looked like most Dibo dogs did back then as Eli Jr., Bullyson, Ch. Rascal, Paddy Boy, Bullyson Jr., Benny Boy and the rest from the Eli bloodline.
So to say Zebo looked like Andy, why not some look alike. Eli and Andy were down from Dibo dogs of Boudreaux.
Why do you think Clemmons and the rest bred to Zebo for the Toby dogs and to Lupe (Ch. Rascal sister) which was one of the best litters ever produced by Zebo with 6 winners in one litter??
Zebo never produced like this.
Why is because he was line bred...............

[440rider]

Nice Post IM! Heard same through Mr Clemmons.

[ABK]

The fact is, that no one here has any DNA results. So the sire of Zebo cannot be known for a "fact." This might anger some people when I say this, but unless someone can come up w/ some solid physical proof, the only "fact" is that all we have on the matter of his parentage is hear say.

Mr. Clemmons. Mr. Boudreaux & Mr. Hughes are all knowledgable, respected dogmen. Considered living legends even. But I doubt any of them saw the actual breeding of Eli to Zebo's mother or saw Zebo slide out of the birth canal on the due date of the breeding. Or maybe they did? Who knows? lol. But if they did, no one has come clean. I suspect however, that they are - as we are - going off rumors, hear say & hunches.

I once saw an old ad in a pit dog mag (I wish I would have scanned it) that shows Zebo as off Andy x Angie, but Andy's ped was blank.

As for appearance, to my eye the dogs look nothing alike. Zebo looks like Andy IMO. You'd think if Zebo was off Eli, the heavy bred Zebo dogs would look like the Eli dogs, but they don't, at least not to me. The only thing many of them have in common physically (in my eye anyway) is the color.

To answer the question, I doubt any of us here have seen Zebo or saw his offspring go. There are dogmen who have seen a dog go, but still don't know everything about the dog. There are some dogmen who have seen a dog go & don't know doodly-squat about the dog. (BTW I am using the word "some" as a general reference here. I am not directing that at anyone in particular)

So I wouldn't use that as either an inclusion or exclusion of a person on the matter.

As for why Clemmons, etc. bred to him, I think they bred to him b/c he was a good box dog. I could be wrong, but don't think it would matter to them if he was off Eli or not. Even if he was bred as his pedigree says he'd still be line bred & would have still nicked w/ their blood.

But this is only JMHO. There will always be differing opinions on this matter.

[Red Cocaine]

Well the fact is, HE WAS OFF ELI!

Before Bob Wallace passed away I was talking to him and he told Zebo was off Eli.
I remember when Eli was stolen from John Cotton in Chattanooga TN.


With all due Respect Mr. N. I'm a nobody and only hear what other people have told me but I thought it was Jr. Bush that last had Eli.... And one story I herd (lol i know... but might as well get this one out there too) About Zebo was that he was off Pit. Gen... and that Pit Gen was off of Eli. Now Since Mayfeild thought Eli was off his Stock it was said that He took Eli and got Pit Gen then Pit Gen was took from Mayfeild to produce Zebo..... I don't know.. wasn't there but that story was told to me about what someone thought to be truth... But it's all here Say and years after the fact anyway.... I don't know...

[Iron Mike]

"ABK;276400The fact is, that no one here has any DNA results. So the sire of Zebo cannot be known for a "fact." This might anger some people when I say this, but unless someone can come up w/ some solid physical proof, the only "fact" is that all we have on the matter of his parentage is hear say."

No the fact is, people were there and saw the breeding and saw Eli on the yard!
The fact is, you weren't even in APBT when any of these dogs were alive to know anything about what went on in Oh. where you use to live!
Just like who stole Art..

"Mr. Clemmons. Mr. Boudreaux & Mr. Hughes are all knowledgable, respected dogmen. Considered living legends even. But I doubt any of them saw the actual breeding of Eli to Zebo's mother or saw Zebo slide out of the birth canal on the due date of the breeding. Or maybe they did? Who knows? lol. But if they did, no one has come clean. I suspect however, that they are - as we are - going off rumors, hear say & hunches."

What is it with you and name dropping? One has a world of troubles and all 3 are still alive!! They might have not come clean with you, but they did with me on who stole the dog and did the breeding.

"I once saw an old ad in a pit dog mag (I wish I would have scanned it) that shows Zebo as off Andy x Angie, but Andy's ped was blank."

Yes, some did think Andy was off Eli. Okay, I'll give you the what if's,
but anyway you want to cut it, Zebo was not a litter mate to Vindincator and Rosie and Zebo was not line bred grand daughter to grand father...

"As for appearance, to my eye the dogs look nothing alike. Zebo looks like Andy IMO. You'd think if Zebo was off Eli, the heavy bred Zebo dogs would look like the Eli dogs, but they don't, at least not to me. The only thing many of them have in common physically (in my eye anyway) is the color."

How many of those dogs have you ever seen in person? The build is the same, color, even personality. If you ever saw any heavy bred Eli dogs as I have, back then, you could tell Zebo had Eli in him.
Recessive Genetic Traits don't hide. Same is the example of Red Boy.

"To answer the question, I doubt any of us here have seen Zebo or saw his offspring go. There are dogmen who have seen a dog go, but still don't know everything about the dog. There are some dogmen who have seen a dog go & don't know doodly-squat about the dog. (BTW I am using the word "some" as a general reference here. I am not directing that at anyone in particular)

So I wouldn't use that as either an inclusion or exclusion of a person on the matter."

As you can tell, I'm not one of those exclusions...
As someone who saw Zebo and Art work, I know more then most around here that seem to be experts of a dog they never saw or sons or daughters he sired. I can tell plenty about Zebo dogs.
ahhh like who had Ch. Diamond Jim, Ch. Indy, Brewer's dogs, etc....
I watch many.
I won't go into it all because some are still around and active. I also don't want to make a claim to a certain trend or interest of intent.

"As for why Clemmons, etc. bred to him, I think they bred to him b/c he was a good box dog. I could be wrong, but don't think it would matter to them if he was off Eli or not. Even if he was bred as his pedigree says he'd still be line bred & would have still nicked w/ their blood."

Well your assumption was wrong.
Have you ever talked to Cajun Kennels???

"But this is only JMHO. There will always be differing opinions on this matter."

So far all I've read on the subject on this thread is opinions from others, not statements made directly about the matter as it has been to me orrr
opinions made from what they saw first hand of the dogs named.

[Iron Mike]

With all due Respect Mr. N. I'm a nobody and only hear what other people have told me but I thought it was Jr. Bush that last had Eli.... And one story I herd (lol i know... but might as well get this one out there too) About Zebo was that he was off Pit. Gen... and that Pit Gen was off of Eli. Now Since Mayfeild thought Eli was off his Stock it was said that He took Eli and got Pit Gen then Pit Gen was took from Mayfeild to produce Zebo..... I don't know.. wasn't there but that story was told to me about what someone thought to be truth... But it's all here Say and years after the fact anyway.... I don't know...

Without Being RUDE, please stick to the handle.

No Jr. Bush did not own him. John Cotton did and if I think about it for a while I can tell you who his friend was that owned Spook. He is back into dogs and I've talked to him on and off over the last few years.

Zebo was being retired when Pit General was stolen.
So that story doesn't play.
Most around Texas knows who stole Pit General and why.
Don never had the heart to steal a dog from John Cotton.
John flew in a helicopter around TN. mountains with a machine gun!
Don thought every good dog was off his line. lmao.

[Bullyson]

When you got it, you got it. ABK, I know you know your shit but c'mon. The man was there. He talked to the people, he knows what happened. You don't always need DNA to know the truth about something. JMHO.

[Red Cocaine]

Without Being RUDE, please stick to the handle.

No Jr. Bush did not own him. John Cotton did and if I think about it for a while I can tell you who his friend was that owned Spook. He is back into dogs and I've talked to him on and off over the last few years.

Zebo was being retired when Pit General was stolen.
So that story doesn't play.
Most around Texas knows who stole Pit General and why.
Don never had the heart to steal a dog from John Cotton.
John flew in a helicopter around TN. mountains with a machine gun!
Don thought every good dog was off his line. lmao.

Sry.. I.M.

I see.. well that makes sense... Thank you for the clarification... you have an Email...

[ABK]

Thanks for your reply IM. I will try to address your post as best I can.

You say people were there & they saw the breeding. Who were they? I would love to know this. PM me if you'd like. Because all you're coming at me right now with is "he said, she said" stuff. The fact is, whether you want to admit it or not, none of us have any physical proof of Zebo's sire. We have words, but nothing physical, nothing tangible.

As for myself, I do dearly hate to disappoint but yes, I was "in the breed" albeit vicariously when these dogs were alive. My family had Colby dogs & the very first dog I ever had was an APBT.

And what in the world is "dry snitching?" All I said was either they were there or they were going on hunches. It has to be one or the other, it can't be both.

As for them "coming clean" to me, I never asked them to. But to answer your question I have talked to Cajun Kennels. He is a very nice man indeed.

As for what the dogs look like, as you say maybe I do not see it b/c I am working w/ the modern incarnations. But I have had both pure Boudreaux & heavy Zebo dogs on my yard & they looked nothing alike. Personality was sort of similar, but the physical attributes were worlds apart.

As for recessive genetic traits not hiding, that sir, is a pure & utter fallacy. Recessive traits in dogs have been known to be able to hide for up to 10 generations. However ... I will concede that in APBTs, a breed that is generally linebred &/or inbred, recessive traits generally aren't hidden for nearly as long.

The bottom line is this - you've been in the breed for a long time. You've met a lot of folks, seen a lot of things & know a lot of things. Of this I have no doubt. But if anyone comes on here w/ a view point with which you disagree, you bristle up like an ole sore tail cat & hiss out your "facts" on the matter.

I could be wrong, but it appears to me that it just infuriates you to have some nobody "chicken little" like myself to come along & have a differing view point from yours or even - gasp - openly debate or question anything you say.

As much as you obviously appear to dislike it, some of us just aren't going to bow down to you or swallow everything you say hook, line & sinker b/c you have xxx years in the breed or have done xxx things or know xxx persons. We are allowed our own opinions & view points if we do choose. With all you've done & all you've seen you still don't know it all (no one ever does or ever will, so please don't take that as a knock) & I feel it's OK for us to agree to disagree.

But if you really want to share your "facts" (& I am sure you can be a wealth of knowledge when you want to be) I would respectfully suggest you not come across so rudely. As my mother said, you catch more flies w/ honey than you do w/ vinegar & your brusque treatment of others is not going to help you teach anyone anything.

And as side, note I would like to add, I never put out there that it was a "fact" that Zebo was NOT off Eli. If you will look closely, I said I myself do not believe he is. Nowhere did I used the words "for a fact" I think I am entitled to my belief, should I so choose to have it. Maybe Zebo was off Eli. But we have no physical proof he was & from what I have seen I myself choose to believe Andy is off Eli, not Zebo. You yourself have conceded there are some who believe this, so there is a chance even if it is slight, that it may be true. However I do not claim it as a fact, just something I personally believe.

The bottom line is there are many views on Zebo's parentage, but nothing physical, so nothing can be factually proven. As such, we are all free to have our own view points. One man says one thing, another man says another. Who are we to believe? Or do we come to our own conclusion? With no hard physical evidence to actually prove the "fact" in question, we are left to contemplate the answer.

But to each his own.

JMHO ...

[JC-Pitbulls]

Seriously, yall better stop reading articles to decide if a dog is or was good. Everyone knows tht good dogs produce good and bad dogs, and SOMETIMES if bred that bad or not so great dogs can produce mighty fine dogs. My point is know what you are dealing with . Dogs are just that dogs, and they will do what they feel , regardless of how they are bred.You get your car 's oil checked to make sure it's running right ,do your dogs the same.

[440rider]

[/QUOTE] As for why Clemmons, etc. bred to him, I think they bred to him b/c he was a good box dog. I could be wrong, but don't think it would matter to them if he was off Eli or not. Even if he was bred as his pedigree says he'd still be line bred & would have still nicked w/ their blood.
[/QUOTE]

There were plenty of "good box dogs" back in the era zebo was used and if you look at Mr C program his dogs are eli boze bred dogs back from when he bred up bullyson, eli jr and brendy to the time he retired. Plenty of amazing animals in between that he could have fused in but never were. To state that it wouldn't matter how the dog was bred up in a program such as his is IMO an insult to his program.! Take Care!

[Iron Mike]

Sry.. I.M.

I see.. well that makes sense... Thank you for the clarification... you have an Email...

Could you resend it. My system lost it. Thanks..

[Iron Mike]

"ABK;276435]
You say people were there & they saw the breeding. Who were they? I would love to know this. PM me if you'd like. Because all you're coming at me right now with is "he said, she said" stuff. The fact is, whether you want to admit it or not, none of us have any physical proof of Zebo's sire. We have words, but nothing physical, nothing tangible."

You don't, that is for sure.
We have done this dance before.
To many toes got step on...

"As for myself, I do dearly hate to disappoint but yes, I was "in the breed" albeit vicariously when these dogs were alive. My family had Colby dogs & the very first dog I ever had was an APBT."

Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up?
Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't.
I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang.
In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!
Here is one question which is very interesting and only true people around the dogs at the time would know. Who was the woman with straight black hair, dark tinted round glasses on who appears in the mag?
This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.
So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio.
I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante?
Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why?
Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around..

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them.
How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

"And what in the world is "dry snitching?" All I said was either they were there or they were going on hunches. It has to be one or the other, it can't be both."

I edited it today. The last one, was the one which ticked me off seeing his name in print. I didn't feel there was a need for it..

"As for them "coming clean" to me, I never asked them to. But to answer your question I have talked to Cajun Kennels. He is a very nice man indeed."

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo.
If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

"As for what the dogs look like, as you say maybe I do not see it b/c I am working w/ the modern incarnations. But I have had both pure Boudreaux & heavy Zebo dogs on my yard & they looked nothing alike. Personality was sort of similar, but the physical attributes were worlds apart."

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.
The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him.
And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from,
good luck knowing the truth..
Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs.
Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore.
Do you even know what his true name was?
Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?
BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

"As for recessive genetic traits not hiding, that sir, is a pure & utter fallacy. Recessive traits in dogs have been known to be able to hide for up to 10 generations. However ... I will concede that in APBTs, a breed that is generally linebred &/or inbred, recessive traits generally aren't hidden for nearly as long."

Well here is one thing we know for sure... It didn't take 10 generations for the conformation, color and ill-temperness to show up in both family of dogs.
Even in the [] the styles were the same, first 30, shotgun style of dogs...

"The bottom line is this - you've been in the breed for a long time. You've met a lot of folks, seen a lot of things & know a lot of things. Of this I have no doubt. But if anyone comes on here w/ a view point with which you disagree, you bristle up like an ole sore tail cat & hiss out your "facts" on the matter."

No it just appears that way, as it did in the pass.
Look how many times you have posted compared to me..
About every post I ever posted on, you felt the need to put your 2 cents in and make people believe you know more then you do.
You base your information on what you read somewhere or stories or rumors.
The difference is, mine are from life experiences and what I saw and know first hand.

"I could be wrong,"

Well, sure to hell wouldn't be the first time..:)

"but it appears to me that it just infuriates you to have some nobody "chicken little" like myself to come along & have a differing view point from yours or even - gasp - openly debate or question anything you say."

Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it..
I believe in the thread of Dogmen Personalities your style was covered as well. BTW how is the view from the cheap seats?
It has been entertaining while playing the sport.
If you would have tried it, a better formed opinion you would have...

"As much as you obviously appear to dislike it, some of us just aren't going to bow down to you or swallow everything you say hook, line & sinker b/c you have xxx years in the breed or have done xxx things or know xxx persons."

Oh so that is what it is? Your sense of pride? LOL you better learn to swallow or you never prove how much you do love the breed.. lol
How come you feel the need to state your opinion on how I feel about anything?
Again you have no idea of what I feel or what I know about with these dogs or anything else.
Have you ever read this statement: "Proof in is the performance"?
Anything else is just idol BS.

"We are allowed our own opinions & view points if we do choose. With all you've done & all you've seen you still don't know it all (no one ever does or ever will, so please don't take that as a knock) & I feel it's OK for us to agree to disagree."

There is one thing clear on this thread, I know a lot more about this line and dogs then you try to appear. This is what really got to you, didn't it? :) History repeats its self. :))))
This is why I don't like posting on billboards much anymore is because everyone is an expert or has an opinion on a matter that they don't have first hand knowledge of.
But what I do know, I know and don't sit around spouting off opinions on matters of which I have no direct knowledge of. I know when people who uses a certain line would like to appear they know more about the line then they do, but they have to be careful that someone else doesn't come along and expose their knowledge.

"But if you really want to share your "facts" (& I am sure you can be a wealth of knowledge when you want to be) I would respectfully suggest you not come across so rudely. As my mother said, you catch more flies w/ honey than you do w/ vinegar & your brusque treatment of others is not going to help you teach anyone anything. "

OHHHHHHHHH here we go again!! Rudely! LOL I can't help laughing at you because you are so thin skin you can't see the sky through the clouds you have made for yourself by letting personalities get in the way.
You need to toughen up that hide if you plan to keep American Gamedogs. ;->

"And as side, note I would like to add, I never put out there that it was a "fact" that Zebo was NOT off Eli. If you will look closely, I said I myself do not believe he is. Nowhere did I used the words "for a fact" I think I am entitled to my belief, should I so choose to have it."

Well, I think it is clear now where and how you based your opinion.
You never saw the dog or any of his sons and daughters or watch them perform to have a in depth opinion of substance.
You never fed or took care of any of these dogs to know their behavior.

"Maybe Zebo was off Eli. But we have no physical proof he was & from what I have seen I myself choose to believe Andy is off Eli, not Zebo. You yourself have conceded there are some who believe this, so there is a chance even if it is slight, that it may be true. However I do not claim it as a fact, just something I personally believe."

No, I really conceded to the fact a guy can never win an argument with a woman. Why try? Point Made. Knowledge Shown, enough said..

"The bottom line is there are many views on Zebo's parentage, but nothing physical, so nothing can be factually proven. As such, we are all free to have our own view points. One man says one thing, another man says another. Who are we to believe? Or do we come to our own conclusion? With no hard physical evidence to actually prove the "fact" in question, we are left to contemplate the answer."

There is no bottom line. There is a line but your lack of knowledge of the breed would never allow you access to the information, your willingness to except it, so why should I bother wasting my time again with you bantering?

[Iron Mike]

As for why Clemmons, etc. bred to him, I think they bred to him b/c he was a good box dog. I could be wrong, but don't think it would matter to them if he was off Eli or not. Even if he was bred as his pedigree says he'd still be line bred & would have still nicked w/ their blood.
[/quote]

There were plenty of "good box dogs" back in the era zebo was used and if you look at Mr C program his dogs are eli boze bred dogs back from when he bred up bullyson, eli jr and brendy to the time he retired. Plenty of amazing animals in between that he could have fused in but never were. To state that it wouldn't matter how the dog was bred up in a program such as his is IMO an insult to his program.! Take Care![/quote]

You are so correct.
But also don't forget one of the best of all times he could have bred to as well on David's yard:::
Gr. Ch. Art 7xw...
Who was only at stud for 8 months on David's yard before he was stolen and made R.O.M.

[Mr Mark]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=2313

[TheVictor22]

"ABK;276435]
You say people were there & they saw the breeding. Who were they? I would love to know this. PM me if you'd like. Because all you're coming at me right now with is "he said, she said" stuff. The fact is, whether you want to admit it or not, none of us have any physical proof of Zebo's sire. We have words, but nothing physical, nothing tangible."

You don't, that is for sure.
We have done this dance before.
To many toes got step on...

"As for myself, I do dearly hate to disappoint but yes, I was "in the breed" albeit vicariously when these dogs were alive. My family had Colby dogs & the very first dog I ever had was an APBT."

Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up?
Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't.
I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang.
In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!
Here is one question which is very interesting and only true people around the dogs at the time would know. Who was the woman with straight black hair, dark tinted round glasses on who appears in the mag?
This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.
So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio.
I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante?
Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why?
Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around..

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them.
How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

"And what in the world is "dry snitching?" All I said was either they were there or they were going on hunches. It has to be one or the other, it can't be both."

I edited it today. The last one, was the one which ticked me off seeing his name in print. I didn't feel there was a need for it..

"As for them "coming clean" to me, I never asked them to. But to answer your question I have talked to Cajun Kennels. He is a very nice man indeed."

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo.
If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

"As for what the dogs look like, as you say maybe I do not see it b/c I am working w/ the modern incarnations. But I have had both pure Boudreaux & heavy Zebo dogs on my yard & they looked nothing alike. Personality was sort of similar, but the physical attributes were worlds apart."



With all due respect. No one is questioning what you know or your creditability. So you have nothing prove. And what your saying could very well be true. However there are still no "hard facts" on this subject. And while your sources on the matter are impeccable it's still only verbal evidence.

Unfortunately in the midst of all that the purpose of this thread was lost. Zebo's sire is irrelevant to this thread IMO. And given your experience and knowledge of the breed your input would be greatly greatly appreciated (If not by everyone for sure by me.). I doubt I'm alone on that. Again no disrespect.


VIC

[ABK]

440Rider:I never said I didn't matter what dog he used. Of course it mattered. I just said they IMO chose Zebo b/c he was a good box dog.

IM: Thank you again for your post. I will once again try to respond as best I can.

" You don't, that is for sure. We have done this dance before. To many toes got step on..."

So what you're saying through your smoke screen is that you cannot provide tangible proof then...? With all due respect here, you have no problem acting rudely to the average person, so I find it quite amazing indeed you'd be worried about stepping on anyone's toes when you seem to relish doing it any other time.

"Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up? Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't."

I never said I was IM. That is why I used the word "vicariously." Might want to look it up sometime.

As for my "pet" she was off 2 very fine bulldogs. Sadly she got killed before she could do anything herself. Were their owners in your "Ohio gang?" Doubt it. But it doesn't stop them from being game bulldogs nonetheless.

I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang. In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!

Sorry IM. No one I knew at the time got that mag & I was not in any "Ohio gang" nor was anyone I knew so far as I know. I doubt the folks who had our dogs ran in your clique. So far as I knew they were just local dog men who appreciated a game dog.

But your mag question has absolutely zero w/ the original question. Your original spout was that I wasn't even in the breed when those dogs were alive, a statement in which you were very much mistaken. Was I out there shaking hands & matching dogs? No. That was left to others. But I was most certainly in the breed, as it was a family affair at that time.

This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.

So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio. I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante? Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why? Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around.

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them. How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

These things can be better answered by you since you have a few years on me. ;)

As for why we have not crossed paths, again I was in the breed vicariously. VICARIOUSLY. Again, look it up if required. I myself was too young to be meeting & greeting or doing any hunting.

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo. If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

I did not ask him about Zebo. I'm sure if asked he would expound on it if he felt like it, but that was not the subject of our conversation.

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.

If that's what you want to call it.

The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him. And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from, good luck knowing the truth.

Actually no, SL was not the ones I got the dogs from.

Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs. Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore. Do you even know what his true name was? Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

Again you would know better than I. My family may have known that but was young at that time. But it still does not answer the question as to why you cannot provide hard physical proof for your "fact."

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?

A combo of the 2, as that is what most of the modern version are now.

BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

None. I don't match dogs, remember? ;)

Well here is one thing we know for sure... It didn't take 10 generations for the conformation, color and ill-temperness to show up in both family of dogs. Even in the [] the styles were the same, first 30, shotgun style of dogs...

No, it usually will not take 10 generation in APBT b/c as I mentioned before, most APBTs are inbred or linebred.

As for conformation, color, & ill-temper in my case they are like night & day. My Boudreaux dogs are usually 45-50 lb c.w., shorter leg, black dogs w/ houndy ears who are kind of chesty. My Zebo dogs were usually 30 - 40 lbs c.w., higher leg, red/rednose, black or brindle dogs an ear set like Zebo or Vindy. Neither were ill tempered.

No it just appears that way, as it did in the pass.

Pass? past? What are you trying to say here? :confused:

Look how many times you have posted compared to me.

And that means what? That one of us is more chatty than the other? That one of us has more time on their hands? What?

About every post I ever posted on, you felt the need to put your 2 cents in and make people believe you know more then you do.

If I ever posted after you, I apologize. I should know better than to have an opinion of my own or question the end-all, be-all Iron Mike. (Did I say that out loud? Sorry! :D)

As for me wanting me to make folks believe I know more than I do, far from it. I post to help. Sometimes it does & sometimes it doesn't. But as for what folks think of me or what I know, to me that is not an issue when I post.

CONT ...

[ABK]

You base your information on what you read somewhere or stories or rumors. The difference is, mine are from life experiences and what I saw and know first hand.

Yes, some of my info comes from historical documents. But so does some of yours. You undoubtedly have info you gleaned on dogs from "stories" you read. So why is that a bad thing?

Do you have some first hand experiences that have given you great knowledge? Sure. I don't doubt that one bit. But it still doesn't mean you can "factually" prove who Zebo's sire was. You have your opinion & I have mine & that is OK.

Well, sure to hell wouldn't be the first time..:)

Wouldn't be for you either. The difference is at least I'm mature enough to admit it! :p

Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. I believe in the thread of Dogmen Personalities your style was covered as well. BTW how is the view from the cheap seats? It has been entertaining while playing the sport. If you would have tried it, a better formed opinion you would have...

Perhaps you are right. Maybe your natural personality is one of an cranky old man & you don't get angry at all when folks disagree w/ you. But from my view in the "cheap seats" it appears that you get awful cranky if someone's lips aren't continually compressed to your rear end.

Oh so that is what it is? Your sense of pride? LOL you better learn to swallow or you never prove how much you do love the breed.. lol

??? You've got me on that one.

How come you feel the need to state your opinion on how I feel about anything? Again you have no idea of what I feel or what I know about with these dogs or anything else. Have you ever read this statement: "Proof in is the performance"? Anything else is just idol BS.

No one said anything about you & the dogs. I just said it appears (key word) that you get P.O.'ed if any one dare question or even have a view point differing from that of the "end-all, be-all Iron Mike."And it's "idle" not "idol." Another word for you to hit up in Webster's while you're looking up "vicariously." (lol, sorry couldn't resist! :p)

There is one thing clear on this thread, I know a lot more about this line and dogs then you try to appear. This is what really got to you, didn't it? :) History repeats its self. :))))

Actually, you knowing more than me about something doesn't bother me at all. I love to learn & have a voracious appetite for knowledge. What I don't like is your attitude problem. And yes, no one else here may have the testicular fortitude to say it to you, but I will. You are RUDE. Plain & simple. And that really detracts from your value to the breed. If you acted more like the true gentleman of this game you could really be a true asset. But instead you choose to be a, well, I won't say b/c it is not nice word.

This is why I don't like posting on billboards much anymore is because everyone is an expert or has an opinion on a matter that they don't have first hand knowledge of. But what I do know, I know
and don't sit around spouting off opinions on matters of which I have no direct knowledge of.

What is wrong w/ having an opinion? Last time I looked, nothing.

As for first hand knowledge, you may have first hand knowledge of a lot of things, but according to you, you do not have first hand knowledge of the subject at hand. All you posted was "he said, she said" which is not first hand knowledge.

I know when people who uses a certain line would like to appear they know more about the line then they do, but they have to be careful that someone else doesn't come along and expose their knowledge.

There is nothing wrong w/ exposing knowledge. I think sharing knowledge is wonderful. And your backhanded insult is not going to work on me. If you know more, share it in a helpful way. Don't be a rude (insert word here).Sheesh. Some people's children. :rolleyes:

OHHHHHHHHH here we go again!! Rudely! LOL I can't help laughing at you because you are so thin skin you can't see the sky through the clouds you have made for yourself by letting personalities get in the way. You need to toughen up that hide if you plan to keep American Gamedogs. ;->

Yes, I said rudely. Because sadly, that is what you have shown me you are. Rude.

And why should I toughen up my hide? No fancier should be expected to tolerate rude behaviour from anyone. Used to, the sport was a gentleman's sport & these dogs were gentleman's dogs. But sadly that is no more & you display that ever so clearly w/ your poor behaviour toward other people. :(

Well, I think it is clear now where and how you based your opinion.
You never saw the dog or any of his sons and daughters or watch them perform to have a in depth opinion of substance. You never fed or took care of any of these dogs to know their behavior.

No, I never fed or took care of them. But how does that go back to your being able to prove your claim w/ physical evidence...? The fact is, no matter how long you rant or deflect the questions you cannot. Nor can I. That is why I said all we can do is contemplate it & come to your own conclusion. Your conclusion is different than mine. Big deal. You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. But w/o hard physical evidence, nothing can be stated as "fact."

No, I really conceded to the fact a guy can never win an argument with a woman. Why try? Point Made. Knowledge Shown, enough said..

You sure are trying awful hard though! :)

But seriously, let's brush your sexist remark aside. (And thank you for exposing your true colors. Now I know not only are you rude, you're sexist too. How nice. :rolleyes:) The fact is we have a difference of opinion. Why have a big hissy fit over it? You could be right. I could be right. Neither of us can prove we're right, so why fight about it?

There is no bottom line. There is a line but your lack of knowledge of the breed would never allow you access to the information, your willingness to except it, so why should I bother wasting my time again with you bantering?

Sure there is a bottom line. There is always a bottom line. And there is always a line to one's lack of knowledge, to include mine & yours as well. You like to purport yourself as the end-all & be-all but you are not.

As I mentioned before, you cannot (or will not, but probably cannot) prove your assertion is a hard fact. You believe one thing, I believe another, but IMO it's all good. We're all entitled to our own opinions. As for why you like to waste your time bantering, maybe it's the woman in you. ;)

TheVictor: Great post & I could not have said it better myself.

[Highbloodbulldog]

Who do yall think desreves this tilte ( EXCLUDIN JOE BLACK ) ??????

A performance dog, Stepp's Willie, of course.

[Highbloodbulldog]

About this "color discussion".. I've never heard about some Zebo dog that wasn't black, black with a bit of white or deep dark brindle... perhaps, genetically if an inbreeding of black dogs is made, the dog can shows some recessive characteristics... in theory even gray.

[SPF]

Peds online number 64118..

Tck's Ch.Ranger..The top side is heavy Zebo (via Panther)..This dog is old (10-11?)but from what I recently heard is still producing..In his day he was First Class for sure..

If anyone has had the opportunity to listen to the interview with TM that was done by RB (and was/is availible via the PBR) you will hear TM speak about this dog..As a matter of fact he said he was one of the best dogs in the country in his opinion,and that he was intending on breeding some of his Panther females to him..Not sure if that ever happened,but Ranger's owner told me the same thing..

[Iron Mike]

"IM: Thank you again for your post. I will once again try to respond as best I can.

" You don't, that is for sure. We have done this dance before. To many toes got step on..."

So what you're saying through your smoke screen is that you cannot provide tangible proof then...? With all due respect here, you have no problem acting rudely to the average person, so I find it quite amazing indeed you'd be worried about stepping on anyone's toes when you seem to relish doing it any other time. "

Proof, since you claim to have been in dogs all these years, of all people you should know they didn't do DNA testing of dogs back then.
I stated the people names and to the point of who stole Eli.
I named the people in the know and still you try to appear, as well as others, to know about these dogs more then the people who were around them and fed them. Old timers who when they crap will forget more then you will ever know and still not good enough. This is what I meant about you will never be willing to except it.

Here we go again, RUDELY, how many more times can you write it? lol
Whaaaaaaaa, dam girl, grow up and quit whinning on how people respond just because it doesn't flatter your opinion..
My reference to the dance is, we have went through this on other boards many times before, need we do it again? Don't play like this is the first time you ever heard this.



This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.

So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio. I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante? Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why? Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around.

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them. How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

These things can be better answered by you since you have a few years on me. ;)


Hold on, don't crawfish on your statement of being into the dogs: albeit vicariously and not be abile to answer any of this...

As for why we have not crossed paths, again I was in the breed vicariously. VICARIOUSLY. Again, look it up if required. I myself was too young to be meeting & greeting or doing any hunting.

As I said, I know what it means and for you to make that kind of claim,, then we all can that ever watch Spanky and Our Gang! lmao!
To young, I knew that and that is how I knew you knew nothing of what went on at the time with Zebo or dogs he sired to make an informed claim of how you think the dog might have been bred...:p

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo. If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

I did not ask him about Zebo. I'm sure if asked he would expound on it if he felt like it, but that was not the subject of our conversation.

Are you in politics? Because you sure know how to side step the questions put directly to you!
For someone who feeds the line and has heard the opinion of Zebo being off Eli and you never asked the man right out? Okay what ever. I guess he didn't know you well enough to bring it up after you told him the bloodline you fed.

4 years ago, about 20 well known dogmen walk into his yard and someone asked how the dogs were bred. You could tell he didn't want to say right out but I pointed out all the dogs which had Boze in them and he punch me in the arm laughing and saying "I knew you would know" :)
So as I said before in the old reference to gamedogs, "for those who know"..
Well, you can't say you weren't told now and by someone who was around the dogs and dogmen of that era. Also told you who did know and who stole what and who owned what...

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.

If that's what you want to call it.

What else would you call it when it was so many generations removed?

The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him. And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from, good luck knowing the truth.

Actually no, SL was not the ones I got the dogs from.

hummmmmm maybe sometimes you do use what God put on your shoulders...smart woman...

Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs. Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore. Do you even know what his true name was? Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

Again you would know better than I. My family may have known that but was young at that time. But it still does not answer the question as to why you cannot provide hard physical proof for your "fact."

Come on, he didn't die that long ago.. In fact he doctored Gr. Ch. Buck after one of his shows. BTW what well known dogs did this legendary family of yours own?
Well I think everyone can tell by now how little you really know about the dogs back then to have any informed opinion on any dogs from that era.
Since DNA was NOT available, then all we can go by is what people saw and they have a lot more creditability then you or your family about these dogs. Believe what you want and since you know it all and continue to rudely correct people who trys to clear up the history of the dogs and people like yourself just want to muddy the water, so be it...

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?

A combo of the 2, as that is what most of the modern version are now.

Maybe yours, but not mine, Check wasn't and neither was Traxlor's Ox 2xw.

BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

None. I don't match dogs, remember? ;)

Why don't you practice what you preach?
Try comprehending what you read....
Where did I ask if you matched any dogs?
I said PRODUCED!
As in producing Untouchables' Ch. Cotton, Bulldog's Ch. Earl, etc...
Another good political side stepping of the questions..

[Iron Mike]

"Hold on! Who do you think you are blowing smoke up? Your family? Maybe owned a pet but at that time you weren't."

I never said I was IM. That is why I used the word "vicariously." Might want to look it up sometime.

""As for myself, I do dearly hate to disappoint but yes, I was "in the breed" albeit vicariously when these dogs were alive. My family had Colby dogs & the very first dog I ever had was an APBT.""

I knoiw what it means, albeit=Even if-although. Vicariously= acting on behalf of some else or in place of.

And I will say again, maybe some relative owned a pet but it still doesn't make it where you were into the dogs or knew anything about this line of dogs at this time. Back in the 60's and early 70's just about every dog in the Midwest was from the Colby line of Neblett, Hetrick, Walter K., etc.
If this qualifies you then I make claim to everything my grandfather and great uncles owned, like Petie McCoy off Burwell's Jeb and Neblett's Beanie McCoy, etc.

"As for my "pet" she was off 2 very fine bulldogs. Sadly she got killed before she could do anything herself. Were their owners in your "Ohio gang?" Doubt it. But it doesn't stop them from being game bulldogs nonetheless."

As Don would say, "the Core". I was there so I knew they weren't.
Only way a dog to be considered game is it to prove it and since they weren't in the core... that is your claim and since Colby has had a low percentage of gamedogs in them since WW2 after John P. died, that claim is harder to prove.
So I guess it is safe to say with your analogy of involvement with the breed was one of the Dogmen Personalies of "Or leaches who are hang-arounders of the true campaigners and make like they were part of the main core of that posse."????

Orrrr "My favorites are the clowns who brags on their bloodline they own but has never done anything themselves to add recognition to the line.
But yet sets in judgment of dog people who have!
You have risked it all by putting it on the line.
"Remember the next best thing to playing and winning is, playing and losing, but you have to play to win."????

I'll prove right here and now how much you know about the Ohio gang. In the 1979 Geo Mag....NAME WHO'S PICTURES ARE IN THERE, WHERE WERE THE PICTURES TAKEN AND WHAT DOGS ARE PICTURED IN IT!!

Sorry IM. No one I knew at the time got that mag & I was not in any "Ohio gang" nor was anyone I knew so far as I know. I doubt the folks who had our dogs ran in your clique. So far as I knew they were just local dog men who appreciated a game dog.

National Geographic?????? what line of BS is this?
You could buy it off any News Stand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
now you just proved how little you really know the breed back then.

But your mag question has absolutely zero w/ the original question. Your original spout was that I wasn't even in the breed when those dogs were alive, a statement in which you were very much mistaken. Was I out there shaking hands & matching dogs? No. That was left to others. But I was most certainly in the breed, as it was a family affair at that time.

You are more full of crap then a Christmas Turkey..
You weren't in the dogs and you have no factual proof you were...
BY you not ansering and responding to the questions I asked proves back then you didn't even know which end to clip the lead on.
I hear you saying all this stuff with no proof to any of it as I did with the "Story of the Unknown Dogman" which Floyd confirmed!!!
No registration papers in your name, No pictures of adds in mags, no books with your dogs in them or on the cover back in the 70's.

Your history in the breed is so lame that you couldn't even name Carver's
Stompinoto who was the black and white dog running WFO on a Lemm Mill in the Geo Mag. You know what is really funny? You couldn't even tell it was Zebo on the cover!

[Iron Mike]

This was National News at the time. If you were in dogs then, tell who had Ch. Diamond Jim when he died or Ch. Jack. Better yet, one of David's closest friends and had one of largest yards of Zebo dogs, hint, last name was Brewer. What was his first name and where did he live and what did he do for a living. Tell what transpired leading up to the Greaser contest which cause Zebo to be entered.

So far I've only directed this towards Zebo bloodline of Ohio. I haven't brought up the rest of the many well known dogmen from the same state, like who owned Ch. Penny Ante? Or what happened at the last show of Art's and who stole him and why? Or better yet, who was the true breeders of Dl. Gr. Ch. Tornado, Ch. Butch, Stripper and owned Ch. Saloon? That is making it easier on you by adding at least 10 years on to when the dogs were around.

Remember this, when you choose to debate or discuss dogs in the Midwest or many parts of this country, if they were in dogs and was about something with the dogs, I knew them. How come you and I never have crossed paths before?

These things can be better answered by you since you have a few years on me. ;)


Hold on, don't crawfish on your statement of being into the dogs: albeit vicariously and not be abile to answer any of this...

As for why we have not crossed paths, again I was in the breed vicariously. VICARIOUSLY. Again, look it up if required. I myself was too young to be meeting & greeting or doing any hunting.

I as I said, I know what it means and for you to make that kind of claim,, then we all can that ever watch Spanky and Our Gang! lmao!
To young, I knew that and that is how I knew you knew nothing of what went on at the time with Zebo or dogs he sired to make an informed claim of how you think the dog might have been bred...:p

Then I'm sure he told you about the connection between Eli and Zebo. If not or he won't then I guess he doesn't feel you need to know or are in the know and it is only for those who know.

I did not ask him about Zebo. I'm sure if asked he would expound on it if he felt like it, but that was not the subject of our conversation.

Are you in politics? Because you sure know how to side step the questions put directly to you!
For someone who feeds the line and has heard the opinion of Zebo being off Eli and you never asked the man right out? Okay what ever. I guess he didn't know you well enough to bring it up after you told him the bloodline you fed.

4 years ago, about 20 well known dogmen walk into his yard and someone asked how the dogs were bred. You could tell he didn't want to say right out but I pointed out all the dogs which had Boze in them and he punch me in the arm laughing and saying "I knew you would know" :)
So as I said before in the old reference to gamedogs, "for those who know"..
Well, you can't say you weren't told now and by someone who was around the dogs and dogmen of that era. Also told you who did know and who stole what and who owned what...

Modern? You mean watered down or scatter bred versions.

If that's what you want to call it.

What else would you call it when it was so many generations removed?

The dogs I saw was Zebo himself and dogs sire by him. And if Steve was one of the people who you got your stock from, good luck knowing the truth.

Actually no, SL was not the ones I got the dogs from.

hummmmmm maybe sometimes you do use what God put on your shoulders...smart woman...

Barney Fife didn't have it that close himself when he started into dogs. Hell, he has passed away so hiding his true name isn't important anymore. Do you even know what his true name was? Who and what kennel he was in partnership with?

Again you would know better than I. My family may have known that but was young at that time. But it still does not answer the question as to why you cannot provide hard physical proof for your "fact."

Come on, he didn't die that long ago.. In fact he doctored Gr. Ch. Buck after one of his shows. BTW what well known dogs did this legendary family of yours own?
Well I think everyone can tell by now how little you really know about the dogs back then to have any informed opinion on any dogs from that era.
Since DNA was NOT available, then all we can go by is what people saw and they have a lot more creditability then you or your family about these dogs. Believe what you want and since you know it all and continue to rudely correct people who trys to clear up the history of the dogs and people like yourself just want to muddy the water, so be it...

As for Boudreaux dogs, I'm one of the last people you can BS about the dogs from that line. Also are you comparing the Eli dogs or dogs from his half brother Boze? The stock is as different from day light to dark. Or is it a combo of those 2 crossed into each other?

A combo of the 2, as that is what most of the modern version are now.

Maybe yours, but not mine, Check wasn't and neither was Traxlor's Ox 2xw.

[Iron Mike]

BTW how many recognized champions have you ever produced from the Boudreaux dogs?

None. I don't match dogs, remember? ;)

Why don't you practice what you preach?
Try comprehending what you read....
Where did I ask if you matched any dogs?
I said PRODUCED!
As in producing Untouchables' Ch. Cotton, Bulldog's Ch. Earl, etc...
Another good political side stepping of the questions..

Well here is one thing we know for sure... It didn't take 10 generations for the conformation, color and ill-temperness to show up in both family of dogs. Even in the [] the styles were the same, first 30, shotgun style of dogs...

No, it usually will not take 10 generation in APBT b/c as I mentioned before, most APBTs are inbred or linebred.

As for conformation, color, & ill-temper in my case they are like night & day. My Boudreaux dogs are usually 45-50 lb c.w., shorter leg, black dogs w/ houndy ears who are kind of chesty. My Zebo dogs were usually 30 - 40 lbs c.w., higher leg, red/rednose, black or brindle dogs an ear set like Zebo or Vindy. Neither were ill tempered.

Oh God, you are as green as grass. Now I am feeling ashamed confronting you on your knowledge.
Most are eh? As in the top R.O.M. female Ch. Honey Bunch? Could you please tell me all about those line breeding and inbreeding that was done with her?
I can tell right now you have never seen his yard. Most all of his Boze blood was buckskin or red.
BTW 4 months before all his dogs were put down, only a hand full was below 50 lbs. C.W.

Zebo never produced a red/red nose unless it was from the female he was bred too. Vindicator or Rosie had to bred into the Zebo blood to get red.
Both Eli and Zebo produced Man Bitters. Name a dog sire by them that wasn't? Bullyson was to bad Bobby was even scared of him.
Ch. Diamond Jim eat his way through the bathroom door to attack his owner and wife and child...

[Iron Mike]

"No it just appears that way, as it did in the pass.

Pass? past? What are you trying to say here? :confused:

Must we go through this again on another board as we did on your old board? I can see my memory is much better then yours..

Look how many times you have posted compared to me.

And that means what? That one of us is more chatty than the other? That one of us has more time on their hands? What?

I don't go around trolling after your posts looking for a debate. Now you got one and you are in over your head with your lack of knowledge.

About every post I ever posted on, you felt the need to put your 2 cents in and make people believe you know more then you do.

If I ever posted after you, I apologize. I should know better than to have an opinion of my own or question the end-all, be-all Iron Mike. (Did I say that out loud? Sorry! :D)

You wanted it, you got it. All you can do is come back with smart ass remarks because you couldn't answer any of my questions about the dogs or the people from that era.

As for me wanting me to make folks believe I know more than I do, far from it. I post to help. Sometimes it does & sometimes it doesn't. But as for what folks think of me or what I know, to me that is not an issue when I post.

Then why do you still have to ramble on about things you have no first hand knowledge of?

[Iron Mike]

ABK;276562]You base your information on what you read somewhere or stories or rumors. The difference is, mine are from life experiences and what I saw and know first hand.

Yes, some of my info comes from historical documents. But so does some of yours. You undoubtedly have info you gleaned on dogs from "stories" you read. So why is that a bad thing?

No sorry dearly but mine isn't. Nice try but your BS don't float with me.
I was there and know what I saw.
When you are confronted about the truth and how long you have been into the dogs your statement "My Family" my ass.
Once again, what was those famous dog your legendary family had?

Do you have some first hand experiences that have given you great knowledge? Sure. I don't doubt that one bit. But it still doesn't mean you can "factually" prove who Zebo's sire was. You have your opinion & I have mine & that is OK.

No, I stated who was in the know and even to the point of who stole Eli.
Since DNA wasn't around back then and you know it, then you have to go by the people I named who are much more creditable then you or your family.

Well, sure to hell wouldn't be the first time..:)

Wouldn't be for you either. The difference is at least I'm mature enough to admit it! :p

So far you haven't been!! as always...:rolleyes:

[Iron Mike]

Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. Not really as one of the moderators know, when I start to get upset, you will know it. I believe in the thread of Dogmen Personalities your style was covered as well. BTW how is the view from the cheap seats? It has been entertaining while playing the sport. If you would have tried it, a better formed opinion you would have...

Perhaps you are right. Maybe your natural personality is one of an cranky old man & you don't get angry at all when folks disagree w/ you. But from my view in the "cheap seats" it appears that you get awful cranky if someone's lips aren't continually compressed to your rear end.

And your is a know it all brat that doesn't know which end to clip the lead.
As I stated before you personality has already been cover under the part about "Possie".

Oh so that is what it is? Your sense of pride? LOL you better learn to swallow or you never prove how much you do love the breed.. lol

??? You've got me on that one.

That was real hard with such an intellectual as yourself

[Iron Mike]

How come you feel the need to state your opinion on how I feel about anything? Again you have no idea of what I feel or what I know about with these dogs or anything else. Have you ever read this statement: "Proof in is the performance"? Anything else is just idol BS.

No one said anything about you & the dogs. I just said it appears (key word) that you get P.O.'ed if any one dare question or even have a view point differing from that of the "end-all, be-all Iron Mike."And it's "idle" not "idol." Another word for you to hit up in Webster's while you're looking up "vicariously." (lol, sorry couldn't resist! :p)

I knew you would respond to that, that is why I spelled that way as in "idol worshiping"
Now if you want to see who has the elementary level of intellectual understanding and comprehension and who has the ability to elevate their selves to a point of superiority of the English language and sentence structure, continue with your RUDE corrections and I will start to point out yours as well.
Mine wasn't a correction. I used it in the context for the meaning I wanted.
You are so pompous I knew you jump on to it and make a fool of yourself. LOL

There is one thing clear on this thread, I know a lot more about this line and dogs then you try to appear. This is what really got to you, didn't it? :) History repeats its self. :))))

Actually, you knowing more than me about something doesn't bother me at all. I love to learn & have a voracious appetite for knowledge. What I don't like is your attitude problem. And yes, no one else here may have the testicular fortitude to say it to you, but I will. You are RUDE. Plain & simple. And that really detracts from your value to the breed. If you acted more like the true gentleman of this game you could really be a true asset. But instead you choose to be a, well, I won't say b/c it is not nice word.

Please don't allow your menstasuial time shine trough. I might appear rude to you and but there is a word for a female dog which might apply to your attitude.:cool:
The only thing we saw here is how you react when the truth comes out that you have no knowledge to base an opinon on. The con was exposed...
How do you like it?:p

This is why I don't like posting on billboards much anymore is because everyone is an expert or has an opinion on a matter that they don't have first hand knowledge of. But what I do know, I know
and don't sit around spouting off opinions on matters of which I have no direct knowledge of.

What is wrong w/ having an opinion? Last time I looked, nothing.

Nothing when it is a knowledgeble opinion that doesn't hide or confuse the issues as you often do..

[Iron Mike]

As for first hand knowledge, you may have first hand knowledge of a lot of things, but according to you, you do not have first hand knowledge of the subject at hand. All you posted was "he said, she said" which is not first hand knowledge.

No I stated names of people alive to ask and I even went to the point of who took the dog (Eli).
All you've done is post an off the wall opinions about a bloodline you never even seen the foundation stock that started the line!!

I know when people who uses a certain line would like to appear they know more about the line then they do, but they have to be careful that someone else doesn't come along and expose their knowledge.

There is nothing wrong w/ exposing knowledge. I think sharing knowledge is wonderful. And your backhanded insult is not going to work on me. If you know more, share it in a helpful way. Don't be a rude (insert word here).Sheesh. Some people's children. :rolleyes:

Oh grow up D. The only thing in these dogs you could ever expose is yourself and the lack of knowledge you have.
You name drop people who wouldn't even give you the time of day.
BTW I don't backhand. I use a closed hand...
When I insult you, you will know it.
Your insecurities are showing so bad right now you can hardly stand it.
The expose of your inept knowledge of the dogs in general and your ability to learn has clearly clouded any rational thought you might be ability to find in a feeble mind.

You will never except what others know as the truth, your willingness to see what is clearly in front of you has blinded your thinking of any other possibilities no matter who tells what they know first hand.
So long as you have as an out, DNA, God himself I doubt you would believe if God said he saw it himself.

[Iron Mike]

As I mentioned before, you cannot (or will not, but probably cannot) prove your assertion is a hard fact. You believe one thing, I believe another, but IMO it's all good. We're all entitled to our own opinions. As for why you like to waste your time bantering, maybe it's the woman in you. ;)

History is the way it is, from the people who was there and if you have doubt then that is your problem because the people who know the truth, you couldn't even hold the leash of one of their dogs.
When the time comes and history of the breed is continued to be discuss and the people who owned them, you won't even be a foot note to these people.
After all these so called years you claim you have been in the dogs, you have done nothing. Once again Dogmen Personalities covers people like yourself.
You are such an ego maniac you really think your opinion out weights the information stated by these great dogmen?

You are a sad case in your own world..
That must be the Butch in you....:p

[Iron Mike]

With all due respect. No one is questioning what you know or your creditability. So you have nothing prove. And what your saying could very well be true. However there are still no "hard facts" on this subject. And while your sources on the matter are impeccable it's still only verbal evidence.

Unfortunately in the midst of all that the purpose of this thread was lost. Zebo's sire is irrelevant to this thread IMO. And given your experience and knowledge of the breed your input would be greatly greatly appreciated (If not by everyone for sure by me.). I doubt I'm alone on that. Again no disrespect.


VIC

Vic,
Think about it for a minute.
ALL written history was known more the Verbal Opinion.
The difference is, there were people there who saw the breeding.
Some of the best known dogmen in history has made this claim and has direct knowledge.
Now if you choose to doubt them, then you need to doubt your pedigrees and every book you ever read on the breed.
If you think claims are false, you are entitled to your opinion.
But that is the difference between them and you. Yours is only based on an opinion. Theirs are based on what was saw and known at the time what things took place. Not years later on some Internet billboard with people who never laid eyes of the dogs they are speaking of, not even dogs they had sired.


Now who's opinions tips the weight of the scales of truth?

[Junebug]

Someone please inject a dose of humility into this "discussion"; otherwise, very informative.

[ABK]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Please forgive my raucous laughter, but I had to let it out, both physically & in written form. I just KNEW that despite your comment about bantering, you would post back. I knew it. You can't resist. But sometimes I can't either, so what the hey.

However, I shall be the one to forgo the pages long dissertation & cut to the short & the sweet.

You just don't get it do you? For a man of your age & experience it amazes me that you cannot seem to grasp the simplest of concepts. So let me break it down for you.

- No one here is doubting your knowledge or experience. So don't get your britches all in a bunch. We all know you are both knowledgeable & experienced in the breed. This is not up for debate, nor has anyone questioned it, so I fail to see why you have the need to try to defend yourself so vigorously or try to tear me down in a strange effort to show everyone how great you are.

Do I know as much as you do? Nope. Never said I did. You have many more years than I do in the breed. But does it mean you know everything? Nope. I know it burns your tail up for me to say it, but you don't know everything. You know a lot, but not everything. HOWEVER ... I don't know everything either & have never claimed to.

I see your barrage of information & attempt to tear me down as a deflection from the original question - can you prove your "fact?" Secondly, I see it a simple effort of a very insecure man who is threatened by anyone who disagrees with him.

- You cannot physically prove that you stated was a fact. Period, end of story. All you have is "he said, she said." BUT ... that's all I have too. That is why I said I BELIEVE xxx & went on to say why I believed it. Nowhere did I state my belief was a fact or that you were wrong. I just stated what I believed & why. When you rudely burst upon the scene w/ your totally off topic opinion, I only asked that you prove your "fact," which you cannot/will not do. Heck, I want to know. Maybe you are right in your opinion. But instead of proving anything, all you did was get all defensive - as usual.

Truth is, right now in 2008 all you have to support your "fact" is hear say, same as me. Neither of us has physical evidence.

You choose to believe one thing, I choose another. What is wrong w/ that?? Why are you so in an uproar about what I believe? Sheesh. Seems to me you are obsessed. You used to troll on my blue board (how weird is that when you don't like me or like blues? Or do you ...?) & now you jump on almost every thread I post on here (despite your belief that it's the other way around. But if you want to believe that, hey, that's OK.)

Look, you can believe what you like, I shall believe what I like & whomever comes to their own conclusions on the matter will believe what they like. And there is nothing wrong w/ that. Get over it. Not everyone has to agree w/ you & not everyone has to think you are right.

And when I have the time or energy maybe I will address your pages long rant point by point again. Or maybe I will just let it be, b/c you obviously didn't grasp my answers to your questions the first time & anyone here who has a shred of cranial capability will see I have already answered you at least once & already understands my point. Depends on how I feel.

[Dr_jitsu]

ABK and Mike,

Why don't you 2 get a room?:p

[ABK]

LMAO .... b/c IM would disagree on any room I chose, no matter what room it was! :D

[TheVictor22]

Vic,
Think about it for a minute.
ALL written history was known more the Verbal Opinion.
The difference is, there were people there who saw the breeding.
Some of the best known dogmen in history has made this claim and has direct knowledge.
Now if you choose to doubt them, then you need to doubt your pedigrees and every book you ever read on the breed.
If you think claims are false, you are entitled to your opinion.
But that is the difference between them and you. Yours is only based on an opinion. Theirs are based on what was saw and known at the time what things took place. Not years later on some Internet billboard with people who never laid eyes of the dogs they are speaking of, not even dogs they had sired.


Now who's opinions tips the weight of the scales of truth?


I agree. My point was. That the discusion was off topic. Again I wasn't questioning you or your sorces in anyway.

[TheVictor22]

LMAO .... b/c IM would disagree on any room I chose, no matter what room it was! :D

Thats funny.

[Iron Mike]

"ABK;276635]BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Please forgive my raucous laughter, but I had to let it out, both physically & in written form. I just KNEW that despite your comment about bantering, you would post back. I knew it. You can't resist. But sometimes I can't either, so what the hey."
To bad you are the only one who finds the humor in your warped sense.

"However, I shall be the one to forgo the pages long dissertation & cut to the short & the sweet. "

Are you serious? Be the first time in your life..

"You just don't get it do you? For a man of your age & experience it amazes me that you cannot seem to grasp the simplest of concepts. So let me break it down for you."

But that is the difference between you and I. I'm not limited in my experience to give an uninformed opinion on something I have no knowledge of, as you do. You try to mislead people on how long you have been involved with the breed. You proved this when you couldn't answer my direct questions of people and dogs from the state of Ohio.

"- No one here is doubting your knowledge or experience. So don't get your britches all in a bunch. We all know you are both knowledgeable & experienced in the breed. This is not up for debate, nor has anyone questioned it, so I fail to see why you have the need to try to defend yourself so vigorously or try to tear me down in a strange effort to show everyone how great you are."

Deary, don't get your panties in a bunch. It is from your perspective that I do this. From mine all I can read is an over opinionate person who feels the need to respond because she feels threatened of exposure of her lack of knowledge of a subject of which, once again, she has to respond to one of my posts and knows nothing about..

"Do I know as much as you do? Nope. Never said I did. You have many more years than I do in the breed. But does it mean you know everything? Nope. I know it burns your tail up for me to say it, but you don't know everything. You know a lot, but not everything. HOWEVER ... I don't know everything either & have never claimed to."

No one knows everything. But when it comes to this breed I know much more then you. What you have trouble comprehending is, when I speak on a subject it is one I have first hand knowledge of. When you do, it isn't the same case. As any who would like to look at my posts, 80% of the time, at least, you have to respond at least once on my posts. Stop trolling my posts because these are not subjects of which you have prudent information of.

"I see your barrage of information & attempt to tear me down as a deflection from the original question - can you prove your "fact?" Secondly, I see it a simple effort of a very insecure man who is threatened by anyone who disagrees with him."

Once again, this is another of your uninformed opinions. I see a person who feels the need to have an opinion on every subject and has little to none of the knowledge about the subject. When I show this by exposing their ability not to comprehended the subject, you get ambiguous about your posts or try circumvent my meaning.
How can anyone prove the pass? There wasn't DNA profiling back then so in truth, NO ONE can prove a breeding of any of the dogs unless they were there when it took place or refer to the most knowledgeable people of the breed at the time it transpired and have first hand knowledge of the breeding.
Soooooooo I ask you "how can you prove these statements wrong with facts?"
Who are you and your opinion?
Who are they?
Is the point made clear enough for you now?

"- You cannot physically prove that you stated was a fact. Period, end of story."

This is what I meant about your ambiguous statements. If this is the case, then all breeding are in question. True enough yours is only an opinion but what has to be made clear is your opinion doesn't matter or has no merit of substance because you had no direct knowledge of the dogs being discussed.
You never saw the dogs or dogs sired directly off him or was able to see how they acted in their behavior, whole litters sired to evaluate recessive genes of conformation, color, or congenial faults, conformational faults or recessive personality behavior.
Also, you have no knowledge or discussion with the people who owned these dogs or access to the people who were around the time to know these kind of things. You are limited and you don't like having yourself disagreed with in public to take a little of the shine and polish off your image of the versed guru of the breed.

"All you have is "he said, she said." BUT ... that's all I have too. That is why I said I BELIEVE xxx & went on to say why I believed it."

I think my about statement addresses the merit and validity of your opinion.

[Iron Mike]

"Nowhere did I state my belief was a fact or that you were wrong. I just stated what I believed & why. When you rudely burst upon the scene w/ your totally off topic opinion, I only asked that you prove your "fact," which you cannot/will not do."

You can't prove as fact it wasn't. You can't even prove you have a well informed versed opinion on the subject.
I see you couldn't miss a chance again to try sublimely include the word rude in your response. I don't think you haven't included it in any of your posts. LOL
What's matter? Because I'm direct and right in front of you at all times and won't let you slide on your BS, this makes me RUDE? whaaaaaaa cry me a river.
Fact is, I wouldn't let you BS people or discredit any of my posts with your off the wall uninformed opinions.
You have continuously tried over the years to do this on other boards and you are trying to do again on this one.
If you had one ounce of creditability in your posts when you give your opinions, I might find some merit in them. Most of the time it is smoke and mirrors from a person which wants everyone after awhile to forget, "YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OR ANY EXPERIENCE TO GIVE ANY INFORMED OPINION!"

"Heck, I want to know. Maybe you are right in your opinion. But instead of proving anything, all you did was get all defensive - as usual."

No the usual is what everyone must do when they read a statement wrote on the Internet or in a book, what is the first rule, CHECK YOUR REFERENCES!
When yours are checked, you side step questions, reach in your old bag of tricks to cover your ass, example; asking for DNA proof at a time it wasn't even heard of doing in dogs. But when legendary names in the breed are given as for reference you try and dismiss them as you do with anyone who doesn't agree with your misguided, limited, uninformed opinion and knowledge.

"Truth is, right now in 2008 all you have to support your "fact" is hear say, same as me. Neither of us has physical evidence."

See what I mean.. The truth is in your face and you are still in denial.
The old side step of proof as in DNA of which no body back then can give on any dogs prior to this era. I gave names of people with honor and integrity who had first hand knowledge of the breeding and you have the arrogance to dismiss them as well. You are really a prize piece of work as a dog person. lol

"You choose to believe one thing, I choose another. What is wrong w/ that?? Why are you so in an uproar about what I believe? Sheesh. Seems to me you are obsessed. You used to troll on my blue board (how weird is that when you don't like me or like blues? Or do you ...?) & now you jump on almost every thread I post on here (despite your belief that it's the other way around. But if you want to believe that, hey, that's OK.) "

Blue board, ROTFLMMFAO @ U! There is a true claim to fame lol. Blue AST dogs. Another subject of which you had no idea of what you are speaking about.
That board was always good for a morning laugh at someone as a green pea. lol
BTW have you ever figure out the difference of the strains? LOL
Look at your board now and the title of "Vindy without all the BS". LOL
Boardhost I'm sure loves that title. LOL
Everything you are involved with is controversial.
The difference in belief is, mine is based off more informed information then yours. You clearly have no idea on the subject. What is worst is your continuation of spouting off these opinions of which confuses and misleads other people....
See again, you switch things up and try to make claim I troll after your posts, when it is the other way around as anyone can see from archives.

Deary, you think way to much of yourself to believe this. I could care less about you or any yardsh_tters you feed or your posts until they become so misleading someone has to finally start putting some of them in check.

"Look, you can believe what you like, I shall believe what I like & whomever comes to their own conclusions on the matter will believe what they like. And there is nothing wrong w/ that. Get over it. Not everyone has to agree w/ you & not everyone has to think you are right."

Your beliefs should on a TV show of "The Funniest Most Misinformed People who has Opinion on Everything!"
I can get over it, it is you who still wants to hold on to some kind of creditability for your reputation.
ahhhh not every one has to agree with you and what you think neither but it is very important to completely inform people of all the information and the background of these statements.
Is it an well informed opinion of someone who has merit on the subject or just another off the wall Pepsi Generation dog person spouting off about something, which in truth, knows nothing about?

"And when I have the time or energy maybe I will address your pages long rant point by point again."

What? ohhhh I'm sure a long winded person like yourself can find the energy to spout another response. LOL

"Or maybe I will just let it be, b/c you obviously didn't grasp my answers to your questions the first time & anyone here who has a shred of cranial capability will see I have already answered you at least once & already understands my point. Depends on how I feel."

ahhhhh I can wait as long as it takes for you to directly state the answers to the questions of the dog people and dogs from Ohio which I ask about.
If you want any creditability of respect, of your statements, then these simple easy questions need to be answered. You've had long enough time to respond, even if you had to go to others for answers and ask them for the information to the questions.
Expert like yourself couldn't even answer the questions to one of the most famous stories ever wrote about the APBT in a public magazine in 1979. It hasn't even been 30 years ago. It was about the dogs and the people this thread is about. You are truly what the Reverend Howard meant by the 1980's Pepsi Generation dog people. LMAO

[Iron Mike]

LMAO .... b/c IM would disagree on any room I chose, no matter what room it was! :D

Your right, not even with my worst stud dog.........:p

[ABK]

Too bad that you're that hateful just b/c someone disagrees w/ you. I guess that just goes to show how self-centered & insecure you are. :(

[ManiacKennel]

well anyway guys lol.......as far as best zebo stud this is a line i started with i love all the zebo dogs like 1xwpanther, nigger toby rom,lonzo bloodlines and every stud is better depending on the bitch the family u are breeding the program involed imo its aloyt more to then breeding two good performance dogs now my personal opinion on who is the best zebo dog i am not sure but i like what muscle put out there.and snake 1xw is also another great lonzo bred dog but like was said before lonzo dogs are more lonzo's mike 2xw and vindicator 2xw.I also like few others that johnstons bear is very well bred dog ,gr.ch.smoking joe is eli zebo and he is rom i belive now and alot folks got some good bred males that are performers as well as good studs the problem with this line is alot ppl are not using it the right ways or they go into newbies hands but like any other line keep the best cull the rest and be true to what u do and give them a fair shake and u can have a very nice yard based of zebo blood lines as well as lonzo breed dogs .Now i heard joe black is a ozzie stevens dog.is he really rom or is that just a online reward lol:p

[ABK]

Good reply MK. I had forgotten completely about Bear & Smokin' Joe. Those are 2 very nice ones as well.

As for Joe Black, I have heard 2 different things from 2 different sources.

[ManiacKennel]

me too what have u heard anyways this is a very good looking dog joe black.i was gonna breed to him way back in the day before tek owned him but was just to far for me at the time.k9 kastles sting like a bee is a good stud i heard i have a gr.daughter of his down from wcw's 2xw blitz wich has proven to be a great dog i hope my lil bitch can be the same here is her peedigree she is crossed with mayday yellow stuff on her bottom side and her top is pure lonzo her sire is that blitz dog i call her blitzen
:)

[ABK]

I heard Joe's sons Hooch, Havok & Beefcake were all CH., which would make Joe Black a ROM. Someone else on the other hand has told me none of them are CH.s. Which is true I don't know. Guy #1 told me they were CH.s & I have not known him to lie. Guy #2 who told me they were not CH.s is supposedly a reputable dog man, BUT he has an agenda against Guy #1 & Guy#1 is the former owner of one of the dogs that supposedly made CH. So I don't know.

[ManiacKennel]

well smoking joe sperm is up for grabs i heard right now i was thing of using that blood i rember the fly baby 2 smoking joe breeding i wonder how them are doing now that was about 2 years back or so now well thing is with these dogs u just never know what u gonna get life is like a box of chocolates u never know what u gonna get inside the box []:D