Fear Biter

[binker]

OK I am really worried. I take Jasmine everywhere with me she goes to the beach and to freinds houses so she meets and enteracts with lots of people and other animals. She is always well mannored and lovable. With that said Yesterday morning I was woke up by Jasmine screaming like she was being murdered. I jumped up and ran outside to see Jasmine standing at the gate with her tail tucked going nuts because my brother in law was standing at the gate. She was not growling but she was terrified even though she has seen him dozens of times. My fear is that when I'm not around she will fear people and we all know fear leads to aggression. How do I get her comfortable with people if I'm not right by her side?

[Patch O' Pits]

Honestly, that is not a good sign.
Were there any other circumstances involved here?

How old is she and what is her background? I ask because at different points of puppyhood some dogs may go through a fear stage. But this extent that you describe is not normal by any means

Is she from a breeder?... if so I'd contact them asap for advice and assitance

[miakoda]

Fear biters are more dangerous than your straight up aggressive dogs IMO. Why? Because a fear aggressive dog's mind tells it that it that it's life is in danger & that it must do whatever it must in order to stay alive. So when a FA dog bites, it is doing so to defend it's own life. A normal aggressive dog just bites because it wants to and/or enjoys doing so. Often time, an aggressive dog will bite & then move on whereas a FA dog will continue to attack in an effort to get rid of the threat to it's own life (which the human is seen as the "threat").

Really scrutinize past behavior of this dog. Is this the first time the dog has acted in this manner? Have you ever noticed more subtle signs before such as a tucked tail, cowering, avoidance, etc. whenever someone comes over?

99% of the time, FA dogs are that way due to an unstable temperament. Basically, the dog's mind is not right. And to be truthful, it takes an awful lot to ruin a stable dog. Too many people make excuses like "my rescue dog was neglected before I got him" or "my dog was just left alone outside all his life" etc. etc. to try & defend bad behavior. My personal experience in the rescue world has proved to me that there are many dogs out there who have been severely neglected & abused yet their temperament remained stable & they continued to be social, happy animals with no evidence of aggression whatsoever. And then you have the dogs that turn into basket cases at the slightest thing. I personally own a deaf rescued "pit bull" that was unsocialized by being thrown into the back yard & severely neglected in that she was emaciated & suffering from hookworms, roundworms, coccidia, & parvo when she was found. Yet from day one she was a happy dog who loved human attention & she has remained the same through the 3 years we've had her. IMO, this should be the norm.

I strongly suggest you a) talk to your vet about the behavior & b) contact a reputable trainer to discuss the behavior with. I will tell you though that this behavior has NO excuses and is NOT to be tolerated whatsoever.

[simms]

Fear biters are more dangerous than your straight up aggressive dogs IMO. Why? Because a fear aggressive dog's mind tells it that it that it's life is in danger & that it must do whatever it must in order to stay alive. So when a FA dog bites, it is doing so to defend it's own life. A normal aggressive dog just bites because it wants to and/or enjoys doing so. Often time, an aggressive dog will bite & then move on whereas a FA dog will continue to attack in an effort to get rid of the threat to it's own life (which the human is seen as the "threat").

Really scrutinize past behavior of this dog. Is this the first time the dog has acted in this manner? Have you ever noticed more subtle signs before such as a tucked tail, cowering, avoidance, etc. whenever someone comes over?

99% of the time, FA dogs are that way due to an unstable temperament. Basically, the dog's mind is not right. And to be truthful, it takes an awful lot to ruin a stable dog. Too many people make excuses like "my rescue dog was neglected before I got him" or "my dog was just left alone outside all his life" etc. etc. to try & defend bad behavior. My personal experience in the rescue world has proved to me that there are many dogs out there who have been severely neglected & abused yet their temperament remained stable & they continued to be social, happy animals with no evidence of aggression whatsoever. And then you have the dogs that turn into basket cases at the slightest thing. I personally own a deaf rescued "pit bull" that was unsocialized by being thrown into the back yard & severely neglected in that she was emaciated & suffering from hookworms, roundworms, coccidia, & parvo when she was found. Yet from day one she was a happy dog who loved human attention & she has remained the same through the 3 years we've had her. IMO, this should be the norm.

I strongly suggest you a) talk to your vet about the behavior & b) contact a reputable trainer to discuss the behavior with. I will tell you though that this behavior has NO excuses and is NOT to be tolerated whatsoever.
Excellent advice and post.

[Patch O' Pits]

I agree, good posting miakoda

[pittychick]

I completely agree with Miakoda. Please seek out a good trainer ASAP! This is something you need to address right away. It's hard to give advice over the net without being able to see the dog and it's reactions. You don't want a fear biter...especially a pitbull.

[binker]

Thanks guys but I think I got to the root of the problem. I talked to sam (my brother in law) and he said that he tried to come in the yard and Fat Boy his rat terrier ran in and attacked Jasmine. He got fat boy out and waited for me to come out. I was half asleep so I took Jasmine inside gave Sam the package he was bringing to the post office for me and didn't ask any questions. So she was actually scared of the dog that just attacked her and not Sam. She is only 11 weeks and Fat Bay is much older and very aggressive with other dogs. Even though he is all of 15lbs he has a 10ft tall and bullet proof complex. To make sure I asked Sam to come down and see what happened. I went inside and left her out by her self and had him approach her. He opened the gate and came in and she jumped up and licked him like she always did in the past.

[pittychick]

That's good news. Just to be safe I would start to work her a little extra with socializing around other dogs (friendly ones of course) after such an incident. I had a friend who's dog was attacked by a shih tzu when he was a pup. When he grew up he'd try to kill any shih tzu he saw, but was great with other dogs. Even though chances are she'll be DA in the future, at least she'll be socialized and not fearful and will know how to behave properly around them.

[cheekymunkee]

I'm happy you figured out what triggered her and that is WASN'T human. Good luck with her.

[Old Timer]

honest opinion here son.and it comes from first hand experince.i purchased a ofrn pup for my daughter quite some time a go.she was a beautufull puppy with excellent breeding.she was red,red nosed,red toe nails and her breeding was so pure even her pads on her feet were red.she acted great just like any other pup till about a week later.first go off was my friend came over to see the new pup and i had her on a leash and when he knelt down to call her she started backing up and her eyes got real big,so i gave her a little encouragement and she was a little better and even went to sniff his hand the minute he went to pet her she started screaming at the top of her lungs just like yours did.she started screaming and fliping over on her back and then took to running in a circle before she passed out.i knew right away i had a screwball.i kept her inside the house and she would always go as far back to her little pen i built her as she could get and she would always give me the stink eye when i would go and try and coax her out.she would always turn a deaf ear to you and once i called her name so many times at the end i called her in a real stern voice and she charged out growling.so one night we had some of my friends over and one of them was Dave and he was laying on the couch petting the dog and smoking a ciggarette.she dosed off to sleep on his belly and she was out for about 5 mintues and she started growling in her sleep,raising her lip the whole nine yards.so Dave being the expert dogman he was knew she was going to wake up any second and do something so she was wearing a harness and he slipped his finger under it for when she did.sure enough not 1 minute later she woke up in a rage and tried to run right for his face and actually managed to claw his neck with her one paw.he had her in the air by the harness and he let her down and she ran to her pen.the next day she was culled and a call was made to the breeder to let him know he had defects in this certain sire or dam.it started out just like yours did,sometimes she was fine with folks other times she would flip out.it looks like fear but it is what we used to call a screwball and it really does need to be culled because they are very very dangerous and can never be trusted or turned around.like miakodia said sometimes it is human error and most of the time it is but this is a classic sign of the infamous manbiter type dog that i tell people to cull so much.if you want to give her a little more time thats up to you. i know i gave mine a few extra days even though i knew from the first time she did this she was a screwball,but in the end i am willing to bet money it was not the dog that made her scream like that,and she will flip out again and you will have to cull her.

[binker]

Old Timer

Thank you for your insight but I really don't think that it was Sam but I will keep am extra close eye on her just to make sure. If it turns out that she is truely a fear biter She will be put down I love her very much but no dog is worth a mauled child or adult for that matter.

[Old Timer]

Old Timer

Thank you for your insight but I really don't think that it was Sam but I will keep am extra close eye on her just to make sure. If it turns out that she is truely a fear biter She will be put down I love her very much but no dog is worth a mauled child or adult for that matter.you are more than welcome.this was my firsthand experince wich is why i posted it.like i said i gave mine a little extra time so i won't fault you for doing the same.just use your judgement and do the right thing if it comes down to it.

[PghPitAllizey]

Reading about FA dogs im starting to wonder about allizey because she loves people and other animals to death but when sumone comes up to her she wont completely tuck her tail but like put it down and out and also wag it. She will roll onto her back and want her belly rubbing and completely wag her tail the whole time its going on and even sumtimes she will get excited and urinate a little.....could this be a sign of fear aggression or is this juss sumthing else? is there anyone in the Pitts, Pa that could check this out for me? someone other than a vet?

[chloesredboy]

Reading about FA dogs im starting to wonder about allizey because she loves people and other animals to death but when sumone comes up to her she wont completely tuck her tail but like put it down and out and also wag it. She will roll onto her back and want her belly rubbing and completely wag her tail the whole time its going on and even sumtimes she will get excited and urinate a little.....could this be a sign of fear aggression or is this juss sumthing else? is there anyone in the Pitts, Pa that could check this out for me? someone other than a vet?All those things you described are how a dog submitts.I wouldnt worry to much unless she's growling or or other unmistakable signd of outright agression.Just try to build her confidence some.

[chinasmom]

This might be a little off subject, but a girl I know of, her dogs got loose today. They ended up back at home on the porch. I was attempting to open the door, hopefully, and let them inside. The female started barking at me first, I noticed she was in heat, but I just stood my ground, one step at a time and wouldn't you know it, the door was locked. So I went to the back door. Finally got it open and went through the house and opened the door and they came right in. My neighbor was in her truck saying " don't go up there." But If I hadn't, she would have been facing a 1000.00 fine for two dogs on the loose. But anyway to make a long story short, they were just barking, not a fearfull barking, just barking. But when I got on the porch with them, they acted like they could care less, they just wanted in.

[PghPitAllizey]

thats what im thinkin it is just submitting. i dont hear nothin like growling or see any other signs like tryin to nib at the hands of ppl or anything else and in fact after ur done rubbing her she will get up and try licking ur face(my fault when i first got her and gave her "kisses and hugs" she would lick my face and then i would say good girl but i dont see this as anything bad) and her tail wags while doing it. im juss wonderin if there is anyone from Pgh, pa that would wanna maybe check her out? i dont know too many apbt owner that are very responsibe as some of yinz i see her...like i said im a new owner to an apbt but i've done my research but u will always learn sumthin new.

[chloesredboy]

thats what im thinkin it is just submitting. i dont hear nothin like growling or see any other signs like tryin to nib at the hands of ppl or anything else and in fact after ur done rubbing her she will get up and try licking ur face(my fault when i first got her and gave her "kisses and hugs" she would lick my face and then i would say good girl but i dont see this as anything bad) and her tail wags while doing it. im juss wonderin if there is anyone from Pgh, pa that would wanna maybe check her out? i dont know too many apbt owner that are very responsibe as some of yinz i see her...like i said im a new owner to an apbt but i've done my research but u will always learn sumthin new.No,its not your fault licking the chin and face is what wolfs do to show submission/admiration for the alpha dog.It just another way of submission.

[BoogiemanBlood]

All those things you described are how a dog submitts.I wouldnt worry to much unless she's growling or or other unmistakable signd of outright agression.Just try to build her confidence some.ok to add the .02 cents about submissive posture is one thing, but to say don't worry is really bad advice IMO. don't get comfortable and think you found the root of the problem and dismiss it please. keep an eye on the dog closer than normal for more signs. if that's what it was, great, but pleeeeeeease don't let any accidents happen. if you do see more signs, say goodbye and do the right thing.

[Suki]

agreed don't let the submissive urination behavior issue go. search this topic, as there is a decent amount of information out there regarding it, and learn how to modify this behavior. it's a pretty common problem but can usually be corrected.
also, i agree, i would keep a good eye on that pup to watch out for any possible future 'issues'.

[PghPitAllizey]

issues as in what like fear biteing?

[CarolinaBoy919]

I have a female that I am not too sure about. She acts a little different from all the dogs I have ever had. She likes to charge people with her tail stiff, barking and growling, but when they stand their ground she starts waging her tail. She is a very submissive dog overall but she barks aggressively at people (barking and growling). Sometimes she wags her tail but sometimes it is stiff. But she always submits when they come closer. I was wondering if when she matures this might turn into something more serious or if someone doesnt stand thier ground will she continue the charge. All of my other dogs have are happy and very friendly, but she makes me uneasy sometimes. She has a somewhat withdrawn type of personality. She has an extreme amount of drive. So i dont want to keep a firey nut case around, If that is what she is

[Phebes]

honest opinion here son.and it comes from first hand experince.i purchased a ofrn pup for my daughter quite some time a go.she was a beautufull puppy with excellent breeding.she was red,red nosed,red toe nails and her breeding was so pure even her pads on her feet were red.she acted great just like any other pup till about a week later.first go off was my friend came over to see the new pup and i had her on a leash and when he knelt down to call her she started backing up and her eyes got real big,so i gave her a little encouragement and she was a little better and even went to sniff his hand the minute he went to pet her she started screaming at the top of her lungs just like yours did.she started screaming and fliping over on her back and then took to running in a circle before she passed out.i knew right away i had a screwball.i kept her inside the house and she would always go as far back to her little pen i built her as she could get and she would always give me the stink eye when i would go and try and coax her out.she would always turn a deaf ear to you and once i called her name so many times at the end i called her in a real stern voice and she charged out growling.so one night we had some of my friends over and one of them was Dave and he was laying on the couch petting the dog and smoking a ciggarette.she dosed off to sleep on his belly and she was out for about 5 mintues and she started growling in her sleep,raising her lip the whole nine yards.so Dave being the expert dogman he was knew she was going to wake up any second and do something so she was wearing a harness and he slipped his finger under it for when she did.sure enough not 1 minute later she woke up in a rage and tried to run right for his face and actually managed to claw his neck with her one paw.he had her in the air by the harness and he let her down and she ran to her pen.the next day she was culled and a call was made to the breeder to let him know he had defects in this certain sire or dam.it started out just like yours did,sometimes she was fine with folks other times she would flip out.it looks like fear but it is what we used to call a screwball and it really does need to be culled because they are very very dangerous and can never be trusted or turned around.like miakodia said sometimes it is human error and most of the time it is but this is a classic sign of the infamous manbiter type dog that i tell people to cull so much.if you want to give her a little more time thats up to you. i know i gave mine a few extra days even though i knew from the first time she did this she was a screwball,but in the end i am willing to bet money it was not the dog that made her scream like that,and she will flip out again and you will have to cull her.
I had never seen a pup like that until 2 days ago. Went to pick up 4 month old brother & sister APBTs for a rescue I foster for from a shelter way south of me. I was taken back to the pups and the female was acting normal, barking wagging her tail etc. The male was bitting the chain link and growling. I thought something ain't right here. The shelter person got the female out of her cage and then went in to get the male. Man, he jumped right on her. She was wearing real tall boots and that is where the pup latched on. He was shaking the hell out of her leg, she had to come out of the gate and slam the gate on his head over and over till he tried for a better hold then she yanked her leg out and shut the gate. She looked at me and I said " he is not coming with me" and she said "he's not going anywhere" She set him up to be PTS the next morning.
I have seen a lot of adult dogs act that way but never a 4 month old pup so full of rage. I am happy to say his sister is a real sweetheart. :)

[tommy3]

I had never seen a pup like that until 2 days ago. Went to pick up 4 month old brother & sister APBTs for a rescue I foster for from a shelter way south of me. I was taken back to the pups and the female was acting normal, barking wagging her tail etc. The male was bitting the chain link and growling. I thought something ain't right here. The shelter person got the female out of her cage and then went in to get the male. Man, he jumped right on her. She was wearing real tall boots and that is where the pup latched on. He was shaking the hell out of her leg, she had to come out of the gate and slam the gate on his head over and over till he tried for a better hold then she yanked her leg out and shut the gate. She looked at me and I said " he is not coming with me" and she said "he's not going anywhere" She set him up to be PTS the next morning.
I have seen a lot of adult dogs act that way but never a 4 month old pup so full of rage. I am happy to say his sister is a real sweetheart. :)I don't know exactly what went on. But, I wouldn't consider a dog human aggressive just because it latched on to her leg. I have seen great dogs that just haven't been properly socialized and therefore never learned that latching onto a pant leg is wrong. A little discipline could straighten it out. I have seen some good dogs that act like absolute psychopaths just like you mentioned. They get too excited and pretty much freak out. It is a puppy and I wouldn't be surprised if a little work would go a long way in straightening it out. What you mentioned does not sound like fear biting at all, in my opinion. But, as I said earlier, I wasn't there.

Nevertheless, a dog like that should not be adopted out unless the owner knows exactly what they are doing.

[Bullyson]

There was a couple who lived up the street from me who had a male and female rn with a whole litter of pups. The water main broke on there house and they abandoned the dogs. Animal control came and took all the dogs but 2. As I would leave for work in the mornings I would see these 2 pups in the front yard (the fence was torn down) and they were getting skinnier by the day. A buddy of mine and myself coaxed 1 pup close enough to grab and he freaked out at first but then calmed down. We could never catch the other one. After a bowl of food and some water I tried to pick the dog up to take him out to a friends house who had a vacant chain out and the sob bit me. Puppy teeth arent dull and the lil bastard had enough mouth at 15 weeks to make a hole. So I loaded him up anyway and took him out there. Was that a mistake? Should he have been seen as ruined and culled on the spot or should I have just let them die of starvation in an abandoned yard? It was a tough call for me but Im no expert. These were well bred dogs, Triple J knew the guy from the house and these pups were supposed to be off of good stock. Had they been mutts I would have called the city back and told them they missed a couple but i didnt want to waste any more potentially good dogs. Good call??

[BoiBoi]

There was a couple who lived up the street from me who had a male and female rn with a whole litter of pups. The water main broke on there house and they abandoned the dogs. Animal control came and took all the dogs but 2. As I would leave for work in the mornings I would see these 2 pups in the front yard (the fence was torn down) and they were getting skinnier by the day. A buddy of mine and myself coaxed 1 pup close enough to grab and he freaked out at first but then calmed down. We could never catch the other one. After a bowl of food and some water I tried to pick the dog up to take him out to a friends house who had a vacant chain out and the sob bit me. Puppy teeth arent dull and the lil bastard had enough mouth at 15 weeks to make a hole. So I loaded him up anyway and took him out there. Was that a mistake? Should he have been seen as ruined and culled on the spot or should I have just let them die of starvation in an abandoned yard? It was a tough call for me but Im no expert. These were well bred dogs, Triple J knew the guy from the house and these pups were supposed to be off of good stock. Had they been mutts I would have called the city back and told them they missed a couple but i didnt want to waste any more potentially good dogs. Good call??
you know u make a great point, everyone's opinion on what dog should be culled for what reason's is different. Some people can handle a high strung dog that might nip when excited and some people would cull that dog instantly after the first nip. Its hard to give the proper advice on a subject like this thread because non of us where there to see the pups actual reactions, but by the sounds of it most likely it was from his dog

[chloesredboy]

I don't know exactly what went on. But, I wouldn't consider a dog human aggressive just because it latched on to her leg. I have seen great dogs that just haven't been properly socialized and therefore never learned that latching onto a pant leg is wrong. A little discipline could straighten it out. I have seen some good dogs that act like absolute psychopaths just like you mentioned. They get too excited and pretty much freak out. It is a puppy and I wouldn't be surprised if a little work would go a long way in straightening it out. What you mentioned does not sound like fear biting at all, in my opinion. But, as I said earlier, I wasn't there.

Nevertheless, a dog like that should not be adopted out unless the owner knows exactly what they are doing.I agree with you,but when the dog is arescue you cant be too carefull about that stuff.If someone came along and said "I can handle it"or "the dog just needs work" and that dog did end biting someone or even just playing too rough,that shelter/rescue group would be in deep shit.

[Phebes]

I don't know exactly what went on. But, I wouldn't consider a dog human aggressive just because it latched on to her leg. I have seen great dogs that just haven't been properly socialized and therefore never learned that latching onto a pant leg is wrong. A little discipline could straighten it out. I have seen some good dogs that act like absolute psychopaths just like you mentioned. They get too excited and pretty much freak out. It is a puppy and I wouldn't be surprised if a little work would go a long way in straightening it out. What you mentioned does not sound like fear biting at all, in my opinion. But, as I said earlier, I wasn't there.

Nevertheless, a dog like that should not be adopted out unless the owner knows exactly what they are doing.
The vet could not give this pup a shot because it was so aggressive. None of the shelter personnel could get near it.
Not to mention at 62 years of age and having owned large aggressive breeds all my life I know a dangerous dog when I see one.
This pup was trying to kill her not play.
And no it was not fear biting I was replying to a post about a pup that was crazy. I know how a fear biter acts. This was pure hatred and for whatever reason that made that pup the way it was I would not bring it into my home or try in any way to place it in a home. There are thousands of really wonderful pit bull type dogs in shelter who need a home why would I save the life of a dog that might possible kill a child in the future. Just what this breed needs irresponsible rescue people.
As you said "You were not there"
And a dog like that should never be adopted out, period.

[Old Timer]

The vet could not give this pup a shot because it was so aggressive. None of the shelter personnel could get near it.
Not to mention at 62 years of age and having owned large aggressive breeds all my life I know a dangerous dog when I see one.
This pup was trying to kill her not play.
And no it was not fear biting I was replying to a post about a pup that was crazy. I know how a fear biter acts. This was pure hatred and for whatever reason that made that pup the way it was I would not bring it into my home or try in any way to place it in a home. There are thousands of really wonderful pit bull type dogs in shelter who need a home why would I save the life of a dog that might possible kill a child in the future. Just what this breed needs irresponsible rescue people.
As you said "You were not there"
And a dog like that should never be adopted out, period.well i tell ya from what you explained in your 2 posts on this pup sound like it needed to be culled.it is very rare or at least it used to be but still is very rare amongst your properly bred gamedogs,but still happens.i would say it is a 1% out of a 100 that this might happen.it is what you do when you do come across one that makes the diffrence.

[Old Timer]

There was a couple who lived up the street from me who had a male and female rn with a whole litter of pups. The water main broke on there house and they abandoned the dogs. Animal control came and took all the dogs but 2. As I would leave for work in the mornings I would see these 2 pups in the front yard (the fence was torn down) and they were getting skinnier by the day. A buddy of mine and myself coaxed 1 pup close enough to grab and he freaked out at first but then calmed down. We could never catch the other one. After a bowl of food and some water I tried to pick the dog up to take him out to a friends house who had a vacant chain out and the sob bit me. Puppy teeth arent dull and the lil bastard had enough mouth at 15 weeks to make a hole. So I loaded him up anyway and took him out there. Was that a mistake? Should he have been seen as ruined and culled on the spot or should I have just let them die of starvation in an abandoned yard? It was a tough call for me but Im no expert. These were well bred dogs, Triple J knew the guy from the house and these pups were supposed to be off of good stock. Had they been mutts I would have called the city back and told them they missed a couple but i didnt want to waste any more potentially good dogs. Good call??well this is a question that is hard to anwser unless a person was there to see what exactley was going on.they could have just been scared you know they were starving and aggitated.the one that you picked up that setteled down that sounds pretty normal for a pup in a stressfull situation.they are depending on their instincts more than anything at that age and especially in a situation like that.sounds to me like one chose flight and the other chose fight.just like people do in very stressfull situations,some choose to run,others choose to fight.the question in the end is how did that pup that got you turn out? even if it turned out fine i would always keep a closer eye to it.i belive in culling man biters 100% of the time,but i will allow time to see in certain situations where the dogs can be fearfull or very stressed out like in the case you just described.but just a normal everyday thing that should have no effect on a dog but that dog still want to take a chunk out of you no way it gets the bullet as quick as i can grab my gun.

[SLICK WILLIE]

I had one of those SOB's before also! Shoot that Sob!!!honest opinion here son.and it comes from first hand experince.i purchased a ofrn pup for my daughter quite some time a go.she was a beautufull puppy with excellent breeding.she was red,red nosed,red toe nails and her breeding was so pure even her pads on her feet were red.she acted great just like any other pup till about a week later.first go off was my friend came over to see the new pup and i had her on a leash and when he knelt down to call her she started backing up and her eyes got real big,so i gave her a little encouragement and she was a little better and even went to sniff his hand the minute he went to pet her she started screaming at the top of her lungs just like yours did.she started screaming and fliping over on her back and then took to running in a circle before she passed out.i knew right away i had a screwball.i kept her inside the house and she would always go as far back to her little pen i built her as she could get and she would always give me the stink eye when i would go and try and coax her out.she would always turn a deaf ear to you and once i called her name so many times at the end i called her in a real stern voice and she charged out growling.so one night we had some of my friends over and one of them was Dave and he was laying on the couch petting the dog and smoking a ciggarette.she dosed off to sleep on his belly and she was out for about 5 mintues and she started growling in her sleep,raising her lip the whole nine yards.so Dave being the expert dogman he was knew she was going to wake up any second and do something so she was wearing a harness and he slipped his finger under it for when she did.sure enough not 1 minute later she woke up in a rage and tried to run right for his face and actually managed to claw his neck with her one paw.he had her in the air by the harness and he let her down and she ran to her pen.the next day she was culled and a call was made to the breeder to let him know he had defects in this certain sire or dam.it started out just like yours did,sometimes she was fine with folks other times she would flip out.it looks like fear but it is what we used to call a screwball and it really does need to be culled because they are very very dangerous and can never be trusted or turned around.like miakodia said sometimes it is human error and most of the time it is but this is a classic sign of the infamous manbiter type dog that i tell people to cull so much.if you want to give her a little more time thats up to you. i know i gave mine a few extra days even though i knew from the first time she did this she was a screwball,but in the end i am willing to bet money it was not the dog that made her scream like that,and she will flip out again and you will have to cull her.

[zacdaddy77]

honest opinion here son.and it comes from first hand experince.i purchased a ofrn pup for my daughter quite some time a go.she was a beautufull puppy with excellent breeding.she was red,red nosed,red toe nails and her breeding was so pure even her pads on her feet were red.she acted great just like any other pup till about a week later.first go off was my friend came over to see the new pup and i had her on a leash and when he knelt down to call her she started backing up and her eyes got real big,so i gave her a little encouragement and she was a little better and even went to sniff his hand the minute he went to pet her she started screaming at the top of her lungs just like yours did.she started screaming and fliping over on her back and then took to running in a circle before she passed out.i knew right away i had a screwball.i kept her inside the house and she would always go as far back to her little pen i built her as she could get and she would always give me the stink eye when i would go and try and coax her out.she would always turn a deaf ear to you and once i called her name so many times at the end i called her in a real stern voice and she charged out growling.so one night we had some of my friends over and one of them was Dave and he was laying on the couch petting the dog and smoking a ciggarette.she dosed off to sleep on his belly and she was out for about 5 mintues and she started growling in her sleep,raising her lip the whole nine yards.so Dave being the expert dogman he was knew she was going to wake up any second and do something so she was wearing a harness and he slipped his finger under it for when she did.sure enough not 1 minute later she woke up in a rage and tried to run right for his face and actually managed to claw his neck with her one paw.he had her in the air by the harness and he let her down and she ran to her pen.the next day she was culled and a call was made to the breeder to let him know he had defects in this certain sire or dam.it started out just like yours did,sometimes she was fine with folks other times she would flip out.it looks like fear but it is what we used to call a screwball and it really does need to be culled because they are very very dangerous and can never be trusted or turned around.like miakodia said sometimes it is human error and most of the time it is but this is a classic sign of the infamous manbiter type dog that i tell people to cull so much.if you want to give her a little more time thats up to you. i know i gave mine a few extra days even though i knew from the first time she did this she was a screwball,but in the end i am willing to bet money it was not the dog that made her scream like that,and she will flip out again and you will have to cull her.
Just thought this might need reread.... be honest about your dogs and don't make exuses for them.

,Zac

[Bullyson]

The dog I was speaking of ended up dying anyway. He was a really good dog for my buddy. I told him how it acted so he kept the kids away from him but he LOVED my friend. He got loose and was missing for a few days. Russ (my bud) found him running the streets and ditches with a few other dogs. The next day he was dead. My guess would be parvo, but Im no vet. Damn shame man, he would have been a good prospect... :(well this is a question that is hard to anwser unless a person was there to see what exactley was going on.they could have just been scared you know they were starving and aggitated.the one that you picked up that setteled down that sounds pretty normal for a pup in a stressfull situation.they are depending on their instincts more than anything at that age and especially in a situation like that.sounds to me like one chose flight and the other chose fight.just like people do in very stressfull situations,some choose to run,others choose to fight.the question in the end is how did that pup that got you turn out? even if it turned out fine i would always keep a closer eye to it.i belive in culling man biters 100% of the time,but i will allow time to see in certain situations where the dogs can be fearfull or very stressed out like in the case you just described.but just a normal everyday thing that should have no effect on a dog but that dog still want to take a chunk out of you no way it gets the bullet as quick as i can grab my gun.