when to feed?

[dublin526]

When a dog is in keep is it better to feed him within a half hour or so after his workout or feed him at the same time each day no matter what time his workout is? Im just wondering because I work mixed shifts so my dog gets his workout when I am home, morning or night.

[Roach]

I am sure there will be a little bit of difference with everyone on this, but I believe and have for a long time, that you should always feed your dog at the same time everyday, but usually when we are working dogs, we are able to work them at the same time every night... but I also believe that the dog needs the nutrients right after the workout to help recover and to stimulate muscle growth and conditioning... so I would say in your case make sure he is getting some kind of nutrients right after his work out... just my 2 cents though, I am sure someone will say different...

YIS
Roach

[pittychick]

I was also wondering this. But in addition (I hope you don't mind me throwing another related question in here), do you find it best to feed once a day or twice as far as conditioning? I've always fed twice, but am just curious.

[GSDbulldog]

I do not condition dogs much, but after a hard work out I would prefer to hold off on food and excessive water for an hour, because of the risk of bloat.

I feed twice a day, once in the morning to get them going and once in the evening to keep them there.

[Attila]

two hours at least before or after. you want them to have eaten and taken a shit before you work them and allow them to have that much time between feeding and bed time. I feed at 0700 and 1700 and work them between the hours 1100 and 1300 hours. Some times late night working too. Depends on in which part of the training cycle we are in.

[getemcassius]

two hours at least before or after. you want them to have eaten and taken a shit before you work them and allow them to have that much time between feeding and bed time. I feed at 0700 and 1700 and work them between the hours 1100 and 1300 hours. Some times late night working too. Depends on in which part of the training cycle we are in.never work a dog after they have been fed they will cramp and not give 100 % after a cool down wait 20 min then fed 1 time a day is fine

[CrazyK9]

Ok, I always hear about people worrying about bloat by feeding too soon before or after exercise... but I don't really understand that. In the wild animals hunt, using a lot of energy chasing and bringing down prey in most cases, and then eat right after. So I would think if bloat were such an issue, more undomesticated animals would suffer and die from it. What is the science behind bloat?

Personally, I think a dog's lifestyle ideally should be as close to how it was designed to be as possible. So what do people think about feeding small amounts of kibble daily with a meal made entirely of meat every 2 or 3 days? Or vice versa, if the dog is in a keep? Just like most predators would pick at insects, plants (fruits, veggies, grass, etc.) and even feces between meal times.

[miakoda]

I'm with Attila on this one. It must be at least 2 hours prior to or at least 1 hour after workouts. But right now I'm on a set schedule so my dog's feeding times are too and there are no problems.

And Crazy, the exact reasons behind why GDV (Gastric Torsion aka Bloat) occurs are somewhat unknown, but in studying cases that have occurred & indentifying risk markers, exercise immediately before or after exercise is one of the more common ones.

And domestic dogs are NOT wolves. Many things have changed over the last 10-15 thousand years (when the first remnants of domesticated dogs have been found). Although our dogs are most definitely from the gray wolf, they are not longer gray wolves themselves. So one cannot compare everything a wolf can do safely to what a domesticated dog can do safely.

[game_test]

if you feed that long after the work your animal will be so far into a catabolic state you will be taking steps backward away from conditioning and muscle strength and tone. this is basic human knowledge which directly relates to our dogs. that is a fact. i would encourage anyone to feed within what is commonly refered to as the "window of opportunity" after a workout, in which you feed the anaimal within 30 minutes to aid in recovery for the next workout, and to keep your dog out of any kind of catabolic state. cortisol is a muscle wasting hormone but there are ways to control it, one of which is feeding as described above.


take it for what its worth, it definetaly isnt my opinion. it is scientific fact.

[game_test]

PS why would anyone feed at all before hand? you are putting something into the digestive tract which does nothing but hinder your workout, and also burns the food rather than fat during the excersize.

[STPFAN]

I always feed after the 20 min rub-down....by then they are completely recovered!

YIS

[BoogiemanBlood]

I always feed after the 20 min rub-down....by then they are completely recovered!

YISthis is exactly what i have been instructed to do by more than one dogperson. it works great and is scientific if you do your research. (refer to gametests post) i don't actually do a full 20 minute rubdown. i usually do 10. is the extra time beneficial? thanks if anybody knows.

edit: i do wait a full 20 minutes after cooldown, but only do the rubdown for 10. just wanted to make that clear.

[purplepig]

Well, if you are working the dog for a show, you should work the dog at the same time that the show will occur. Anything else is just halfway. If the show is 6am, guess what time you should be working the dog. start the warm up at 5:30am. After the workout, you should walk the dog to do a warm down, rub the dog down real good, and then about 30min. after the rub down is a good time to feed. If you are doing a good keep, the dow will need lots of H2O put back into it's system. Before you work the dog, you should NOT feed the dog. It would be better to let the dog work itself on a chain than to put the dog through a keep by feeding it before work, because the dog has better sense than to work itself with the food. Before the work out, you should walk the dog to let it empty itself before anything intense really begins. This goes for working a flirt pole, to a tread mill or whatever else you are using.
Small details make a big difference, and by what you have said, you should get someone else to work the dog for you if you cant have the dog on a set schedule. Dogs like and work better on them. Of course if you are just getting the dog to be healthy that is one thing, but a keep is a very intense thing to put the dog through, at least it is when I do it. You can take a mediocre dog, that is put through a great keep, and it will smoke a great dog, who has been put into a crappy keep. I have always heard and seen, that winning is 50/50 genetics/conditioning.
Take a world class boxer. If he is not conditioned properly, he'll overheat, wont have the staying power, adinfinum.

[CrazyK9]

Thanks for the reply Mia.

Is surgery the only way to correct the problem and save a dog from death? Do you have any links to studies or statistics with bloat cases and the number of deaths, breeds involved, etc.?


And domestic dogs are NOT wolves. Many things have changed over the last 10-15 thousand years (when the first remnants of domesticated dogs have been found). Although our dogs are most definitely from the gray wolf, they are not longer gray wolves themselves. So one cannot compare everything a wolf can do safely to what a domesticated dog can do safely.
I don't think anyone was comparing dogs to wolves. ;) After the thousands of years of human intervention, it would be incorrect to say that dogs and wolves are the same in every aspect. However, in breeds that aren't bred too far away from its original form, I think that their differences are more environmental than genetic as far as basic form/function goes. Just like with humans, you can't go from a completely sedentary lifestyle to that of a marathon runner (or vice versa) without negative results. Did I make any sense? lol


Game_test, do you have any articles that explain the science behind how the body creates and burns muscle and fat? Not keeps or interviews with dogmen, because I know the Millmaker and Mr. Mayfield (or maybe it was Mr. Boudreaux? I forget...) have written about it and I have access to those already. I'm more interested in the actual facts than people's opinions or secondhand information which I can't always trust to be "fact." No offense meant by that, of course. Just want to learn things without the possibility of bias.

[game_test]

Hi Crazyk9, sorry, wasnt around for the weekend, i take weeneds off from the net lol...

the best written article i have seen related to the dogs was by mr tom garner, in his mag the journal, the conditioning article to be exact. the mag is temporarily discontinued, but back issues are available for 22 bucks. regardless of what people think of mr garner, he is an educated man and his writing are based upon scientific fact, definetely not opinion. my knowledge also stems from my own personal fitness. i have been into nutrition and training since high school, a good friend is a personal trainer and i have gained a ton of knowledge from him. i would reccomend getting that article if you can, i have it scanned and in my computer but it wouldnt be right to print it without permission. by far one of the best written pieces of dog related knowledge that isnt just assumption i have seen.


Thanks for the reply Mia.

Is surgery the only way to correct the problem and save a dog from death? Do you have any links to studies or statistics with bloat cases and the number of deaths, breeds involved, etc.?


I don't think anyone was comparing dogs to wolves. ;) After the thousands of years of human intervention, it would be incorrect to say that dogs and wolves are the same in every aspect. However, in breeds that aren't bred too far away from its original form, I think that their differences are more environmental than genetic as far as basic form/function goes. Just like with humans, you can't go from a completely sedentary lifestyle to that of a marathon runner (or vice versa) without negative results. Did I make any sense? lol


Game_test, do you have any articles that explain the science behind how the body creates and burns muscle and fat? Not keeps or interviews with dogmen, because I know the Millmaker and Mr. Mayfield (or maybe it was Mr. Boudreaux? I forget...) have written about it and I have access to those already. I'm more interested in the actual facts than people's opinions or secondhand information which I can't always trust to be "fact." No offense meant by that, of course. Just want to learn things without the possibility of bias.

[dublins dad]

if you feed that long after the work your animal will be so far into a catabolic state you will be taking steps backward away from conditioning and muscle strength and tone. this is basic human knowledge which directly relates to our dogs. that is a fact. i would encourage anyone to feed within what is commonly refered to as the "window of opportunity" after a workout, in which you feed the anaimal within 30 minutes to aid in recovery for the next workout, and to keep your dog out of any kind of catabolic state. cortisol is a muscle wasting hormone but there are ways to control it, one of which is feeding as described above.


take it for what its worth, it definetaly isnt my opinion. it is scientific fact. game_test, "The window of opportunity" & 30 min rule is true for humans. The science is true for humans. Do you know of any hard science relating to Dogs? If it is true they digest food like we do, that would mean small meal's 5-6 time a day would be best. regardless of goals(gain/loss) Total calories & make up of food(protein,fat,or carb) would determine muscle/fat gain/loss. If you know of any site/place I could read hard science on dogs, I would be thankful. dublins dad.

[PorsA]

I always wait a hour orso. When they are cooled down. Because they don't take the food very well when feed sooner. I understand that a dog needs to refull his body after workout for recovery. But heard a lot of differend opions. Wild dogs that hunt game eat the stomach first. But what can i give as a replacement for that?

[purplepig]

I always wait a hour orso. When they are cooled down. Because they don't take the food very well when feed sooner. I understand that a dog needs to refull his body after workout for recovery. But heard a lot of differend opions. Wild dogs that hunt game eat the stomach first. But what can i give as a replacement for that?

Well, if you really want to go that route, whats in the willd games' stomach? Then feed your dog that.

And BTW, if your doing the keep the way I was taught, your dog will be cooled down, and ready to eat when workout is over. Never had any trouble feeding them in the 30min time. On a schedule, they are ready then. Problem may be that you are not doing a prekeep right(how I was taught) if your dog doesnt want to eat after the rubdown.

[PorsA]

Well, if you really want to go that route, whats in the willd games' stomach? Then feed your dog that.

And BTW, if your doing the keep the way I was taught, your dog will be cooled down, and ready to eat when workout is over. Never had any trouble feeding them in the 30min time. On a schedule, they are ready then. Problem may be that you are not doing a prekeep right(how I was taught) if your dog doesnt want to eat after the rubdown.
I know dogs are no wild animals. But i think that the kibble is to hard for the dogs stomach directly after a hard workout. But i could be wrong ofcourse.

My parents had working collies before and they where realy hyper and would run to death and when we feed them directly or within a half a hour after a hard workout they will eat but don't always hold the food. With that in mind i wait with feeding till 1 hour with my dogs. But i never tried to give my dogs their feed earlier. May you could help me out. Thank you for your point of view.

[MinorThreat]

within 15-30 min after work outs, same time everyday

very simple

[Rockstar]

Gametest has it right...Feeding within thirty minutes post workout will replenish glycogen stores and increase the rate of protein synthesis (muscle repair and growth.) Food should contain quality carbs (preferably Maltodextrin) and proteins. Another benefit of feeding immediately after a workout is that the dog will have more time to digest its meal before the next workout, being that the canine digestive cycle is approximately twenty-three hours long. If you need factual scientific data, here are but a few sources:

Buffington, C., A.: Comparative Digestion and Absorption in Domestic Animals, in Animal Models for Nutrition Research. Ross, pg. 2, 1985. Waddel, C., et al: The Use of Laboratory Animals in Nutrition Research. Wld. Rev. Nutr. Diet. 36, pg. 206-222, 1981. Davidson, F., C.: Historical Perspective of Biomedical Experimentation. The Future of Animal cells, Models and Systems in Research, Development, Education and Testing, pp-1-15, NAS, Washing, 1977. Romansky, A., J., et al: Ketone Body Clearance Following Endotoxin Administration in Dogs. Fed. Proc. 41:1133, 1982. Shapiro, R: Historical Development and Limitations of "Elemental" Diets, in Shils (ed): Defined Formula Diets for Medical Purposes. Chicago; AMA. 1-5, 1977. Silk, D., et al: Use of a Peptide Rather than a Free Amino Acid Nitrogen Source in Chemically Defined "Elemental" Diet. JPEN, 4:548, 1980. Stephens, R., V., et al: Use of Concentrated, Balanced, Liquid Elemental Diet for Nutritional Management of Catabolic States. Ann. Surg. 170:642, 1969. Scott, J.,P., et al: Experience with Epidemic Diarrhea of the Newborn: the Use of Nutramigen in its Dietary Management. J. Pediat. 33:573-577, 1988. Bennet, M., J., et al: Mellituria and Postprandial Blood Sugar Curves after Ingestion of Various Carbohydrates with the Diet. J. Nutr. 88:163, 1966. Sarett, H., P: Commentary: The Role of Protein Hydrolystates in Defined diets, in Shils (ed): Defined Formula Diets for Medical Purposes, AMA, pg. 210-212, 1977. Roy, T., et al: Correction of the Malabsorption of the Preterm Infant with a MCT Tormula. J. Pediat. 86: pg. 446-450, 1975. Berlyune, G., et al: Glucose Polymer Mixture for Hospitalized Patients. Ross, pp 89, 1975. Winitiz, M, et al: Evaluation of Chemical Diets as Nutrition for Man-In-Space. Nature 205:741, 1965. Winitz, M., et al: Studies In Metabolic Nutrition Employing Chemically Defined Diets: Extended Feedings of Normal Human Adult Males. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 23:525, 1970. Kies, C: Comparative Utilization of Amino Acids, Peptides and Protein by Adult Human fed Liquid Formula Diets. Ross Labs Report, 1984. Queen, P., M., et al: Nitrogen and Mineral Retention During Feedings of Defined Formula Diets in Short Bowel. JPEN, 5:567, 1981. Foster, C: Gastric-Emptying Characteristics of Glucose Polymers. Ross pg. 80-87, 1984. Steinbaugh, M., L.,: Nutrient Digestibility of Complete Liquid Diets. Ross pg. 99-112, 1984. Fink, J., W., et al: Gastric-Emptying Characteristics of Complete Nutritional Liquid. Ross, pg. 112-119, 1984. Smith, J., et al: N. Engl J. Med. 33:151-158, 1982. Bistrian, B., R., et al: Prevalence of Malnutrition in General Medical Patients. JAMA 235:1567, 1976. Issekutz, B: Role of Beta-Receptors in Mobilization of Energy Sources in Dogs. J. Appl. Physiol. 44: 869, 1978. Birch, R., et al: The Influce of Dietary Creatine Supplementation on Performance During Repeated Bouts of Maximxal Cycioing in Man. Eur. J. Appl. 69:268-270, 1994. Benedict, S., R., et al: Studies in Creatine and Creatinine Metabolism. Jnl. Biol Chem. 1:229-252, 1923. Sahelinan, R. Creatine. pg. 4, Avery, New York, 1997. Poullain, M., G., et al: Lactalbumin Digests Enhance Nitrogen Retention. Jnl. Par. Ent. Nutr. 13:382-386, 1989. Hashim, S., A., et al: Intestinal Absorption and Mode of Transport in Portal Vein of Medium Chain Fatty Acids. J. Clin. Invest. 43:1238, 1964. Ivy, J., et al: Enhanced Performance with CHO Supplements During Endurance Cycling. Ross pg. 54-60, 1984. Dill, D., B., et al: Studies in Muscular Performance. 612:766. 1937. Okamura, K., et al: Effect of Timing of Amino Acids and Glucose Administration after Exercise on Protein Kinetics. FASEB J. 11.3A:375, 1997. Anthony, J., C., et al: Effect of Meal Composition on Skeletal Muscle Protein Synthesis Following Prolonged Exercise FASEB J. 11.3A:375, 1997. Chandler. R., M., et al: Dietary Supplements Affect Anabolic Hormones After Weight-Training Exercise. Appl. Physiol. 76.2 839-845, 1994. Zawdski, K., M., et al: Carbohydrate-Protein Protein Complex Increases the Rate of Muscle Glycogen Storage After Exercise J. Appl. Physiol. 72.5 1854-1859, 1992. Olson, S: Origins of the Domestic Dog. BOD, 1985. Ewer, R., F: The Carnivores. Cornell Press, 1973. Discovery Channel, Pack Ice Bears, 1995. Mech, L D. The Wolves. The Ecology of an Endangered Species. Natural History Press, pg. 181-192, 1970. Mutie, A: The Wolves of Mount McKinley, U of Washington Press, nd.

[enjoi]

I feed about 20 mins after a workout. Nothing extreme as far as workouts cause he's just a house dog... Workout about 15 mins, walk about 15 mins, come home, make a meal (a smaller portion than I usually feed of kibble and mix with a meat like chicken, fish or beef) wait about 20 mins and feed. I also feed him again later that evening. I like feeding him smaller meals about 3 times a day. Depends on the day though, if no workouts at all than its a morning and evening meal of dry kibble. I could definitely be wrong but that's what I've been trying =)