Old Timers-Dogmen

[lipshipsattitude]

This question goes out to all the old time game-men out there......I've been afraid to ask because I dont wanna get me head bitten off so as a disclaimer let me start by saying this is all crazy speculation in my mind, I just want some insight.....thanks in advance.
In addition I llive in California so the prospect of the bully style taking over is much more real then some of you others down south or in the east so please bear with me.

So it is my understanding that the APBT and Staffie were once one in the same, they spilt when the AKC and UKC chose sides, show -vs-game dogs. So the gameness was bred out of the staffie's right but it seems today that most carry the breed standard physically that I think of from way back when. So lets just say in 10-15 years the bully's really do take over the majority of our pit bull population.....Do you think that the Amstaff's might be our path to pit bull salvation to replenishing the breed?
I dont see nearly as many irresponsible Amstaff breeders overbreeding and manipulating the genes, since they supposedly come from the same lines couldnt we breed gameness back into them? I just think its a better option then trying to salvage the RE/Gotti/Greyline trend, no?

Again, I might be talking outta my A** here but its just specualtion and I just may not have all my facts straight....what do you think?

[Attila]

well you don't see it because the public will call a staff a pit bull, a boxer a pit bull, a mastiff a pit bull. pit bull is such a general term. Unfortunatly it is in the name of our dogs.

One thing that would help is people being taught that there are lots of breeds out there and maybe learning them would make them less ignorant. We can look at a doggo, American bull dog and so on and tell the difference like a red flag on a white building but the general public is too stupid.

No staff isn't our salvation. not even close.

and that re/gottie what ever stuff isn't worth salvaging as a line of APBT because they are not APBT at all. Period they are not. No more than a english bull dog is.

[JoeFeezy]

Great topic. I can't wait to hear some of the responses on this one.

[Lethalpits]

I'm no old timer,but from what I've heard there were a few Amstaffs out there that still had some fire in them. Don't know how true it is, but supposedly Ch. Tuffy's dam had a shot of staff in her. Don't know if Amstaff or not.

Gr Ch Boogieman's got a shot of Amstaff in him, but he's a conformationally correct dog.

I know alot of people won't side with a bulldog that's got any hint of amstaff in him, makin him impure, but I disagree. If a bulldog is a bulldog, then it's a bulldog. I might be sayin this cause I have a male with a 10% shot of ruffian.AmStaff and APBTs were all the same at one point, just a registry made a different title. Of course, one registry focused more on the showmanship.

I don't think bullies are ever going to take over. I personally think it's a fad right now and it's popularity won't be so much in the years to come.

The original APBT will rise again!

[Lethalpits]

As for the question of Amstaffs being the breed savior, no. It would still take a game to the core APBT crossed with a driven Amstaff with some mouth to get anything.

Anyone else seen any successful breedings with a half Amstaff dog or anything like that?

I wasn't there for this breeding, but I was told this was a good breeding and that dog produced a CH. Off of John Dunn's yard, and I've heard he's a best to best breeder.

This is a 3rd gen male in one of my dog's. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=68243

[lipshipsattitude]

well you don't see it because the public will call a staff a pit bull, a boxer a pit bull, a mastiff a pit bull. pit bull is such a general term. Unfortunatly it is in the name of our dogs.

One thing that would help is people being taught that there are lots of breeds out there and maybe learning them would make them less ignorant. We can look at a doggo, American bull dog and so on and tell the difference like a red flag on a white building but the general public is too stupid.

No staff isn't our salvation. not even close.

and that re/gottie what ever stuff isn't worth salvaging as a line of APBT because they are not APBT at all. Period they are not. No more than a english bull dog is.your taking my question ina direction that dosnt pertain to my question.....I dont care what the general public thinks about my dog. I'm speaking of history....not really looking for opinions but actual facts....thanks though

[lipshipsattitude]

Lethal Pits....

Sweet reply! I can see how some old timers might have a huge disdain towards the ams-staff's....like Chevy -vs- Ford, haha but its all american muscle baby!!
I wish I had as much faith as you that the big bully's wont overcome but like I said in the beginning the west coast is almost void of game bred pit bulls. It took me a year just to find a breeder that didnt have 80lbs+ pit bulls. My girl is 2.5 years old and 65lbs. She's just a house dog but my dad who hunts has to go all the way to Texas for game dogs.....adn I'm almost ashamed to say ( as is he) that a lot of hog hunters in this area have turned to the Catahoula/Pit Bull mix for hog dogs. He'd never pay for one, their a dime a dozen here but they have proven very usefull in the field

[Lethalpits]

Yea I heard Cali is full of bully style dogs. Guess it became a big trend on the west coast. I'm down here in Tennessee, and you rarely see a bully style dog in Memphis. I see em all over east Tennessee though.

I just don't think American Bullies will last because bully breeders will never be as committed to the preservation of their dogs as game dog breeders are of their dogs. Bullies haven't made their mark yet as a working dog neccesity, other than maybe weight pull, and not enough breeders are participating in that.
Game dogs have been here for over a century, and bullies have been around for like 15 years.

[lipshipsattitude]

I hear ya Lethal but I dont think you understand the severity of the issue out here. I went to a bully expo in los angeles that had 32,000 people......not one word of any true game dogs, there was even a booth that was labeled APBT history and it started with Dave Wilson!!!!! Rory, my girl got comments like

"Oh what is she mixed with"
"Is she still a pup"
"She's awfully tall"
"That cant be all pit bull"

When I inquired about entering in a show for fun they looked at me like I was crazy

[lipshipsattitude]

Ok so I went totally off topic there.....just humor me please....

I just think that the Amstaff breeders have done a pretty good job of keeping the lines clean...well from my knoweldge,a whole lot cleaner then a lot of pit bulls.
So bottom line your saying they do come from the same lines more then what a lot of people pit bull people like to admit?
Oh and in addition to the bully expo thing I posted, I also attended a amstaff club earlier this year....WOW they really have a lot of anger towards pit bull people huh? Not nice people at all

[Lethalpits]

I hear ya Lethal but I dont think you understand the severity of the issue out here. I went to a bully expo in los angeles that had 32,000 people......not one word of any true game dogs, there was even a booth that was labeled APBT history and it started with Dave Wilson!!!!! Rory, my girl got comments like

"Oh what is she mixed with"
"Is she still a pup"
"She's awfully tall"
"That cant be all pit bull"

When I inquired about entering in a show for fun they looked at me like I was crazy
Well damn! lol. That's a big show! So Dave Wilson is the new Earl Tudor huh?

I might need to come out to Cali and preach! jk

[Pitbull219]

I am not an old-timer, nor do I call myself a dog-man. The "bullies" for the most part come from AmSaff lines, not APBT lines. If you look at UKC show dogs,they have gotten more bully looking in the last 15 years or so. The UKC is a total joke IMO. You can take an AKC dog that has been registered AmStaff going back many generations, and the UKC will gladly take your money and register the dog as an APBT with them. That was the beginning of the slippery slope our breed is sliding on. Had they the foresight way back when, we wouldn't see alot of the problems we see today. So, the AmStaff cannot be the salvation of our breed since that is the breed typically mixed with whatever to make them huge and ugly. Now, as a side note, I have been reading some things recently where game-dogs were tipping the scales at 100 pounds back in the 70's. These dogs were bred for the []. Kinda makes you woder, were they mixing them back then, or is it possible that they just bred catch weight dogs to catch weight dogs and they started throwing dogs that size? Check this out:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2v2bdox.jpg

[Scotsman]

If you look at a game bred dog that becomes a confirmation Ch, there is a big difference between that and a Am. Staff Ch.
I don't see how the Am Staff could save the APBT, the APBT kept going down its original path while the Am Staff branched off and went a different direction.

[Scotsman]

http://i12.tinypic.com/2v2bdox.jpg
Funny that add reads like some of the peddlers you see in the Gazzette today, with huge blue dogs saying they have dogs like Chinaman, Eli Jr., Bullyson, Iron Head, etc..

[lipshipsattitude]

PB219- Wow thats crazy....I wonder how those 100lbs'ers came about back then. I heard one BYB breeder defend himself agaisnt mixing breeds by claiming he got the biggest game pit bull's he could find and bred them together but I just cant see two 60lbs'ers producing a 100lbs dog. Sure I have NO experience in breeding but isnt that just common sense? Kinda makes you wonder about that ad you posted, no?

Scottsman-So I dont technically get what you mean by the Amstaffy's branching off. I mean I know they were bred for show and confirmation with a lot of game bred out of them but I mean genetic wise like mixing breeds how are they much different? I see a lot of them that look a lot more leaner and game-ier then a lot of my local pit bulls

Also I dont mean to frusterate you guys with my never ending questions and I'm not discounting what your saying.....just wanna know whats the deal!

[lipshipsattitude]

This is what I put up with in Cali....

http://monterey.montereycountyweekly.com/buyselltrade/classifieds/ViewAd?oid=oid%3A281977&name=pets%20for%20sale
I called her and inquired about them being Staffies with the UKC....she said she had teh paperwork from the UKC that registered them as Staffies.....look at how she spelled Terrier, ha ha!
I told her I'd have to pass because it sounded strange to me and the crazy lady offered one to me for $300......OMG!

[lipshipsattitude]

whoops, here ya go

http://monterey.montereycountyweekly.com/buyselltrade/classifieds/ViewAd?oid=oid%3A281977&name=pets%20for%20sale

[Scotsman]

Scottsman-So I dont technically get what you mean by the Amstaffy's branching off. I mean I know they were bred for show and confirmation with a lot of game bred out of them but I mean genetic wise like mixing breeds how are they much different? I see a lot of them that look a lot more leaner and game-ier then a lot of my local pit bulls

Also I dont mean to frusterate you guys with my never ending questions and I'm not discounting what your saying.....just wanna know whats the deal!
To me the Am Staff is a different breed, they have a heavier structure and really aren't as athletic looking compared to an APBT. If you look at dogs bred only for gameness their conformation usually isn't that great.

[Suki]

Do you think that the Amstaff's might be our path to pit bull salvation to replenishing the breed?


I don't consider an Amstaff as a source of replenishment. I do not think the Amstaff should be considered the same or put into the same classificationa s the APBT. IMO, they are two entirely different "animals".

In the 70's, 'the change' took place, and it was decided that the APBT and the Amstaff would be "seperated" from one another, and the AKC was called in! The APBT was then distanced, furthur from the Amstaff, and I think, that's when the lines were furthur drawn between the two.
and not an oldtimer, this is meerly my opinion on this subject.

a lil reading from another site:


A small group of pit bull fanciers decided that their "Grand Old Breed" needed full American Kennel Club recognition in order to distance itself from its baiting/fighting heritage. A standard was drawn up and application made to the AKC. [John Colby's dog "Primo" was one of the dogs used to formulate the AKC standard, and Primo's picture illustrated the idea of perfection for many years. Those wanting to know what a real American Staffordshire is supposed to look like should study a picture of Primo.]

The dogs were accepted, but the AKC would not allow the word "pit" in the name, and so the rather dubious designation of Staffordshire "terrier" was chosen. Only the AKC could come up with a name like that! Staffordshire was a place in England noted for its harsh way of life and its fighting animals, however, it could hardly claim to be the place of origin. And placing this bulldog in the terrier group was simply ludicrous. Terriers, named for the Latin "terra" meaning earth, are smallish dogs which "go to ground" after small prey. They are noted for their quick tempers and sharp intelligence. True terriers are "hand spannable", meaning a man can grasp the dog behind its shoulders and have his fingers touch. Dogs larger than this are of doubtful use in ground work. To consider a breed which has always worked above ground, whose original purpose was the gripping of large wild game, then later wayward bulls, and then later still combat with a variety of animals, a "terrier" defies explanation.

The word "American" was added to the name of this very British breed in the 1970's when pit bulls began being imported to the US under the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Most registries simply lumped the two dogs together, since they were the same breed. The AKC and UKC did for many years. Yet the two lines of the same breed had changed in some important physical ways. The pit bulls developed in the UK after the turn of the century had been bred strictly for show and pet. Emphasis had been put on a stocky, "bully" look and small size. Top weight for the breed was 35 pounds - in reality the bottom weight for most pit bulls. Because of these differences, the AKC created two breeds where before their had been one (this has been done several times, as with the Norwich and Norfolk terrier to name one example). Because of this division of the same dog, there were now three distinct "breeds" all originating from the good ol' pit bulldog. The American pit bull terrier as registered by the ADBA and UKC, the American Staffordshire as registered by the American Kennel Club (and by the UKC, but as an American pit bull terrier) and the Staffordshire bull terrier as registered by the AKC and now the UKC. For further clarification on these three lines of dog, click here. (http://www.workingpitbull.com/amstaffpit.htm)


so, since it apprears that owners seem to gravitate towards one (APBT) or the other (Amstaff), based on personal preference, I can't see how the Amstaff would be the salvation to the APBT, as I personally do not consider them to be the same. The Amstaff could replenish the Amstaff, but I do NOT think the Amstaff could replenish the APBT, if nothing else, meerly based on demand of the APBT: they are continously still sought after, based on the qualities they, themselves posess. Amstaff, different animal, to me. If there is a threat to the APBT and its future, I don't foresee people flocking to Amstaffs meerly to obtain a "pitbull". That to me is settling for something you may not REALLY want, and I doubt people would "settle" for an Amstaff, when it's the APBT that they really want.
Again, two different "animals" so to speak, imo. ...just my .02....

[Attila]

your taking my question ina direction that dosnt pertain to my question.....I dont care what the general public thinks about my dog. I'm speaking of history....not really looking for opinions but actual facts....thanks though
Look here you asked for those of us that have been dogging for a long time. I gave it to you as it is. Am Staffs and those bluff dogs are nothing at all to us. Dirt, that is what it is. They are not APBT and not a direction we should ever look at in this breed. period. Kids always trying to change something and mess it up. Change is what has caused us so much trouble already.

[parishkennels]

it will be nice to see what other think as far as my thoughts no

[Old Timer]

This question goes out to all the old time game-men out there......I've been afraid to ask because I dont wanna get me head bitten off so as a disclaimer let me start by saying this is all crazy speculation in my mind, I just want some insight.....thanks in advance.
In addition I llive in California so the prospect of the bully style taking over is much more real then some of you others down south or in the east so please bear with me.

So it is my understanding that the APBT and Staffie were once one in the same, they spilt when the AKC and UKC chose sides, show -vs-game dogs. So the gameness was bred out of the staffie's right but it seems today that most carry the breed standard physically that I think of from way back when. So lets just say in 10-15 years the bully's really do take over the majority of our pit bull population.....Do you think that the Amstaff's might be our path to pit bull salvation to replenishing the breed?
I dont see nearly as many irresponsible Amstaff breeders overbreeding and manipulating the genes, since they supposedly come from the same lines couldnt we breed gameness back into them? I just think its a better option then trying to salvage the RE/Gotti/Greyline trend, no?

Again, I might be talking outta my A** here but its just specualtion and I just may not have all my facts straight....what do you think?well i don't think it would be the right path because they are 2 diffrent breeds of dogs.kind of like if a lab was in the same boat and someone said oh a golden is just a long haired lab and they are good maybe we could use those and breed the shorter haired ones back to each other and make the breed better as a whole,not gonna happen because they are 2 diffrent breeds.i think the path to getting our dogs and by our dogs i mean gamebred APBT's on track is to clean up the breeding programs.and by that i mean we old doggers need to turn up the heat on these lazy likes who have game dogs and don't keep them up proper and breed to whatever to make a buck wich i have seen happen.what we as a very large community need to do is screen more who we sell them to via closing it down and keeping them amongst ourselfs and only giving them or selling them to our apprentices or other apprentices approved by other dogmen,turn up the heat on them bluff breeders,educate the public more about what a bulldog is because they have no clue on earth as to what one is to them a big black lab might be a bulldog,clean up our breeding pracitces by culling hard when needed for the obvious flaws just pretty obvious stuff that should have been done long ago.the staffie is the show dog and the bulldog is the true form of the breed.the only reason staffies are in ''better'' shape and i use that term lightly is because they are bred strictly for looks for the show ring.very very few are bred for working ability and very few have what it takes to be a good working animal so adding that to the lines that are working animals in my opinion would weaken it as a whole.keep working animals to working animals and the others to theirs.never mix espically in the thought that it will better the breed because it won't.

[ChiaPit]

.i think the path to getting our dogs and by our dogs i mean gamebred APBT's on track is to clean up the breeding programs.and by that i mean we old doggers need to turn up the heat on these lazy likes who have game dogs and don't keep them up proper and breed to whatever to make a buck wich i have seen happen.what we as a very large community need to do is screen more who we sell them to via closing it down and keeping them amongst ourselfs and only giving them or selling them to our apprentices or other apprentices approved by other dogmen,
And there you have it...EXCELLENT POST!!! The only thing I would add is instead of "Old Doggers" I think this applies to ANY current "Pit Bull Owner"...

[Old Timer]

And there you have it...EXCELLENT POST!!! The only thing I would add is instead of "Old Doggers" I think this applies to ANY current "Pit Bull Owner"...very true i should have added that.but i am also going to add responsable.

[bdub]

Gotti/Greyline =TRASH

[Attila]

well i don't think it would be the right path because they are 2 diffrent breeds of dogs.kind of like if a lab was in the same boat and someone said oh a golden is just a long haired lab and they are good maybe we could use those and breed the shorter haired ones back to each other and make the breed better as a whole,not gonna happen because they are 2 diffrent breeds.i think the path to getting our dogs and by our dogs i mean gamebred APBT's on track is to clean up the breeding programs.and by that i mean we old doggers need to turn up the heat on these lazy likes who have game dogs and don't keep them up proper and breed to whatever to make a buck wich i have seen happen.what we as a very large community need to do is screen more who we sell them to via closing it down and keeping them amongst ourselfs and only giving them or selling them to our apprentices or other apprentices approved by other dogmen,turn up the heat on them bluff breeders,educate the public more about what a bulldog is because they have no clue on earth as to what one is to them a big black lab might be a bulldog,clean up our breeding pracitces by culling hard when needed for the obvious flaws just pretty obvious stuff that should have been done long ago.the staffie is the show dog and the bulldog is the true form of the breed.the only reason staffies are in ''better'' shape and i use that term lightly is because they are bred strictly for looks for the show ring.very very few are bred for working ability and very few have what it takes to be a good working animal so adding that to the lines that are working animals in my opinion would weaken it as a whole.keep working animals to working animals and the others to theirs.never mix espically in the thought that it will better the breed because it won't.
Thanks. Maybe hearing it from you will sink in better. Great post my brother.

[Suki]

Thanks. Maybe hearing it from you will sink in better. Great post my brother.

likewise, couldn't agree more. ;)

[coolhandjean]

I agree that Amstaffs are not the gamebred "salvation". I have an Amstaff, and he is definately not close to looking like a gamebred pit. He is more bulky muscle than lean muscle, and he definately isn't game in any way, shape, or form. Also, though he is only 50 lbs., he looks bigger than that. I saw a lady with a dog on dogster.com. She claimed the dog was an Amstaff/Pit Bull. When I asked her how she felt about that mixture, she said, "I don't have a mixed bred dog." I didn't feel like arguing with her...
I also agree with Old Timer. The only thing that will help the gamebred dog is for the owners and breeders to be very careful about their breedings, very selective, and make sure to keep within the guidelines for the GB APBT...
As for the bullies, hopefully, they are just a faded, though if they aren't. Hopefully they do get American Bully passed, and people start being more honest about the Origins of the American Bully, and not lie saying it's a fullbred APBT, because it's obviously not.

[lipshipsattitude]

So after all of those wonderfully informative replies my next question would be.....

What are we gonna do to save this breed. Like I mentioned in the original post tehre is a great cause for concern regarding the diminishing quality of the APBT.....at least in this part of the country. I know a lot of you may not feel the effects of it, especially on the east coast.

[lipshipsattitude]

well i don't think it would be the right path because they are 2 diffrent breeds of dogs.kind of like if a lab was in the same boat and someone said oh a golden is just a long haired lab and they are good maybe we could use those and breed the shorter haired ones back to each other and make the breed better as a whole,not gonna happen because they are 2 diffrent breeds.i think the path to getting our dogs and by our dogs i mean gamebred APBT's on track is to clean up the breeding programs.and by that i mean we old doggers need to turn up the heat on these lazy likes who have game dogs and don't keep them up proper and breed to whatever to make a buck wich i have seen happen.what we as a very large community need to do is screen more who we sell them to via closing it down and keeping them amongst ourselfs and only giving them or selling them to our apprentices or other apprentices approved by other dogmen,turn up the heat on them bluff breeders,educate the public more about what a bulldog is because they have no clue on earth as to what one is to them a big black lab might be a bulldog,clean up our breeding pracitces by culling hard when needed for the obvious flaws just pretty obvious stuff that should have been done long ago.the staffie is the show dog and the bulldog is the true form of the breed.the only reason staffies are in ''better'' shape and i use that term lightly is because they are bred strictly for looks for the show ring.very very few are bred for working ability and very few have what it takes to be a good working animal so adding that to the lines that are working animals in my opinion would weaken it as a whole.keep working animals to working animals and the others to theirs.never mix espically in the thought that it will better the breed because it won't.
Best response, thank you so much....so how do you think this is going to happen?

[Old Timer]

Best response, thank you so much....so how do you think this is going to happen?well the only way i think it is going to happen is by not sitting idle and letting the current way things are going keep on going.we have got to do what i said and not just sit and talk about it.talk is just that talk but if we want a change we have to get up off our asses and make it happen ourselfs.demand that the bully breeders quit dragging our dogs names through the mud with their shoddy practices,demand that the news and papers quit labeling our breed vicious and pegging any dog attack a pitbull attack,demand that people get educated about this breed of dog,demand that byb's go out of buisness or change their breeding practices.and as far as our own practices it is not difficult to do and if you truely are a breeder you wouldn't have to change a damn thing when it comes to that.the way i described how we should control our breedings is the way i have always done things.but there has been a few who have not all they cared about was getting a big name and making money and again we have to start demanding that this changes,i am not saying we ask we demand.just like they are demanding our breed gets outlawed we start demanding they stopand so on and so forth.asking won't get you nowhere when your in a situation like this you have got to demand that your voice is heard and stand up for your selfs just like the negros did during the civil rights movement they didn't ask to stop being lynched and beat to death they demanded they start being treated like equals and if we want to save the breed before it is to late we to must do the same,and trust me it will well be worth the rewards we will get in the end.

[Suki]

So after all of those wonderfully informative replies my next question would be.....

What are we gonna do to save this breed. Like I mentioned in the original post tehre is a great cause for concern regarding the diminishing quality of the APBT.....at least in this part of the country. I know a lot of you may not feel the effects of it, especially on the east coast.
"I know a lot of you may not feel the effects of it, especially on the east coast".
I seriously hope you're joking with this statement, ...:confused: ....
no, trust me, we feel the effects!!!:mad:
as owners, we're ALL in this together! there is no east side, west side, me or you. it's us. yes, on this east coast, like you,, ALL of you, we fight BSL on a daily basis. BSL doesn't care what color your skin is, how much $ you have in your pocket, or what side of the world you live in. If you own an APBT or any of the other 25+ breeds that people confuse as being a "pit bull", YES, you're affected.
Ever see the list of LEAST friendliest cites in which to bring your dog?
Boston tops out at #7.......

[vena]

Yea I heard Cali is full of bully style dogs. Guess it became a big trend on the west coast. I'm down here in Tennessee, and you rarely see a bully style dog in Memphis. I see em all over east Tennessee though.

I just don't think American Bullies will last because bully breeders will never be as committed to the preservation of their dogs as game dog breeders are of their dogs. Bullies haven't made their mark yet as a working dog neccesity, other than maybe weight pull, and not enough breeders are participating in that.
Game dogs have been here for over a century, and bullies have been around for like 15 years.
I have to disagree with that. I really dont think the blue nose stuff is going to go any where when you have people willing to pay 1500-2000 dollars for a pup. Most people still believe that blue noses are rare and that pit bulls should weigh around 80 lbs. When i take my dog to the vets or pets mart every one thinks hes a mutt and that hes to small to be a pit bull. The vet even said he didnt look like a pit bull, and i can under stany why. when i first went in to the vets office i saw 3 other pit bulls in the lobby and they were all in the 80 lb range. If you google pit bull breeder with out includeing the words game dog, the only thing you will find are blue nose breeders. Since i have been here in san antonio i hgave not seen one game bred looking pit bull out in public. Every pit bull ive seen has been in the 60- 100 lb range

[Suki]

and as far as what to do?

Be the best damn dog owner you can possibly be! That means, imo, going above and beyond the average joe, lab owner and taking it a step furthur. Make sure your dogs are UTD on all vaccines. If out in public, clean up after them. Control your dogs around people, carry a parting stick, even if you feel you must do so, indiscriminately, but be prepared, just in case. Attend and speak at ANY and ALL BSL meetings you can possibly attend, write to any and all legislators who are considering BSL in their city or town, and show them why BSL will NOT work and introduce a better, more cost effective solution. Follow your city's dog rules to the letter, especially in terms of 'this breed', which you know will most likely take the heat, God forbid, an altercation should erupt. Fingers point first, at the "pit bull", we all know that. :rolleyes:
Just get out there and be the voice for these animals and help to dispel people's doubts about this breed. City by city, councilors and legislators are trying to enforce this BSL bull shit, just as city by city, imo, the "smart" councilors are also realizing it isn't only a "dog" problem, but an owner problem, and this is where the attention needs to be: on the owners and not specific breeds of dogs. You may think that by "only being one person" your efforts may fall on deaf ears, but as one, I, personally would rather try to make a difference, then do nothing at all. Nobody knows my conscience better than me... I would rather try, than not, so I do, and I not only go to, but speak at every meeting I can possibly get to. I write to councilors all around this country. I spend a lot of time in this chair on behalf of the APBT, but humans have done this to this breed, so as another human, I'm meerly trying to undo it, as well. So can you...

[Old Timer]

I have to disagree with that. I really dont think the blue nose stuff is going to go any where when you have people willing to pay 1500-2000 dollars for a pup. Most people still believe that blue noses are rare and that pit bulls should weigh around 80 lbs. When i take my dog to the vets or pets mart every one thinks hes a mutt and that hes to small to be a pit bull. The vet even said he didnt look like a pit bull, and i can under stany why. when i first went in to the vets office i saw 3 other pit bulls in the lobby and they were all in the 80 lb range. If you google pit bull breeder with out includeing the words game dog, the only thing you will find are blue nose breeders. Since i have been here in san antonio i hgave not seen one game bred looking pit bull out in public. Every pit bull ive seen has been in the 60- 100 lb rangewich is why we need to be sure the public gets educated and especialy the vets it is pretty sorry when even a trained vet doesn't know what a ABPT is because all most all of the time they are there and giving their statements during a BSL hearing.and we need to turn up the heat on the bully breeders.

[runt]

Funny that add reads like some of the peddlers you see in the Gazzette today, with huge blue dogs saying they have dogs like Chinaman, Eli Jr., Bullyson, Iron Head, etc..I have done research on the Freeman stuff off of Preacher boy,because some of the blood is in one of my males,and got nothing but good news about the blood when kept true(game bred),and most of them run big when inbred .http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=200470 this is my boy,he's a good little scatter bred dog,he's proven he's worth feeding.look at the bottom side.

[Attila]

"I know a lot of you may not feel the effects of it, especially on the east coast".
I seriously hope you're joking with this statement, ...:confused: ....
no, trust me, we feel the effects!!!:mad:
as owners, we're ALL in this together! there is no east side, west side, me or you. it's us. yes, on this east coast, like you,, ALL of you, we fight BSL on a daily basis. BSL doesn't care what color your skin is, how much $ you have in your pocket, or what side of the world you live in. If you own an APBT or any of the other 25+ breeds that people confuse as being a "pit bull", YES, you're affected.
Ever see the list of LEAST friendliest cites in which to bring your dog?
Boston tops out at #7.......
We all feel it. From what I can tell the most liberal of the states it is worst at. Those with the highest amount of Democtrats. Dosen't really matter though. They are the same dick weeds that want helmet laws, seatbelt laws, gun laws, and so on. They fricken law us to death.

Up in Michigan a fat ass cop pulled me over (probably speeding) anyway I set he saw my pistol on the seat next to me and blew a load in his panties. While checking my CWP and my FFL he tried to tell me they were not effective in the state of Michigan. the CWP maybe. But I asked this bright and shinning star from Michigan if he knew what a FFL was. I don't think he realized that all states fall under Federal. Any way he wasted over an hour of my time till a Captain showed up and called him a dip shit (I think that was the term) and said I could leave and sorry about all that. There should be a law against cops that are stupid if we are going to make some laws, make them worth while. Otherwise I think we should ditch 99% of them and not make any new ones. It is a law that you can't ride a bicycle on the federal Highway systems. What kind of jack ass would do that anyway? Does that really have to be a law. That was a waste of tax dollars to even draw up some stupid shit like that. Or the law about jumping off the empire state building. What the hell are they going to do about it if you do. Fine you? shit there will be nothing left. Waste of time and money. There are literally millions of stupid laws. 99% of them are stupid.

Make it simple
Don't take something that isn't yours
don't murder, rape, mess with kids, or anyone elses spouse, no tresspassing and mind your own phuken business. any one caught doing any of these should be hung till dead. Plain and simple. no retrial no apeals. find them guilty and hang them. no more jails. Jails are a waste of time. If it is serious enough hang them. If it is traffic tickets and stupid crap like that leave em alone. Traffic laws for the most part are retarded too. Drive your car on the right side of the road, be conciderat of others and don't be doing it drunk or stoned. Speed limits, seat belts and all that is stupid. For kids yes they should be restrained But for an adult if you dumb enough to ride with out it great, why should I care or any one else for that matter.
Think of it like this, the more people that kill them self in a year the more job openings for the rest of you. Positive light there ey.

There that should sum it up. the rest is bull shit.

[realonebulldog]

We all feel it. From what I can tell the most liberal of the states it is worst at. Those with the highest amount of Democtrats. Dosen't really matter though. They are the same dick weeds that want helmet laws, seatbelt laws, gun laws, and so on. They fricken law us to death.

Up in Michigan a fat ass cop pulled me over (probably speeding) anyway I set he saw my pistol on the seat next to me and blew a load in his panties. While checking my CWP and my FFL he tried to tell me they were not effective in the state of Michigan. the CWP maybe. But I asked this bright and shinning star from Michigan if he knew what a FFL was. I don't think he realized that all states fall under Federal. Any way he wasted over an hour of my time till a Captain showed up and called him a dip shit (I think that was the term) and said I could leave and sorry about all that. There should be a law against cops that are stupid if we are going to make some laws, make them worth while. Otherwise I think we should ditch 99% of them and not make any new ones. It is a law that you can't ride a bicycle on the federal Highway systems. What kind of jack ass would do that anyway? Does that really have to be a law. That was a waste of tax dollars to even draw up some stupid shit like that. Or the law about jumping off the empire state building. What the hell are they going to do about it if you do. Fine you? shit there will be nothing left. Waste of time and money. There are literally millions of stupid laws. 99% of them are stupid.

Make it simple
Don't take something that isn't yours
don't murder, rape, mess with kids, or anyone elses spouse, no tresspassing and mind your own phuken business. any one caught doing any of these should be hung till dead. Plain and simple. no retrial no apeals. find them guilty and hang them. no more jails. Jails are a waste of time. If it is serious enough hang them. If it is traffic tickets and stupid crap like that leave em alone. Traffic laws for the most part are retarded too. Drive your car on the right side of the road, be conciderat of others and don't be doing it drunk or stoned. Speed limits, seat belts and all that is stupid. For kids yes they should be restrained But for an adult if you dumb enough to ride with out it great, why should I care or any one else for that matter.
Think of it like this, the more people that kill them self in a year the more job openings for the rest of you. Positive light there ey.

There that should sum it up. the rest is bull shit. God has said nobody should kill Cain. The revenge is mine man speaks.Your repayment is nothing against the repayment of God but you risk your soul if you acts against him. I thought you are a Christian?

[PiTBuLL200416]

Even Though Im Not A Old Timer, I Was Mentored By One Of The Greatest Dog Men Out There. Basically All We Can Do Now Is Educate And Not Be Afraid To Say What Is Right. I Also Live In California And I Live Next Door To This Guy Who Owns Two Bullies. They Call There Kennel West Coast Bullies And They Always Have Their Dogs In The Front Yard To Show Them Off. I Finally Got Tired Of What I Was Seeing And Simply Asked Him Why Are These Dogs Worthy To Be Bred. All He Said Was That They Are The Hottest Thing Out Now And They Are Making Money. I Snapped, Not Yelling And Screaming At Him, But Just Came Out With Everything. I Told Him How I Felt And How This Breed Is Suppose To Be. I Told Him All His Dogs Are Good For Is Eating, Sleeping, And You Know The Rest. He Asked Me Why A Breed, And I Told Him I Dont Right Now But If I Did It Would Stricly Be Based Off The Ability Of My Dogs Not The Physical Characteristics. If I Want To Start My Dogs Weight Pulling, I Would Breed For The Best Weight Pulling Dogs, The Same Goes For Agility, Huntign, And Other Competions. I Am Aware That We Cant Fight Or Game Test Our Dogs Anymore But We All Know That, That Is Not The Only Thing Our Dogs Are Good For. I've Had My Game Bred Dog For A Year And Even At Her Young Age She Has Shown Me Things That I've Never Thought Dogs Were Capable Of.

At The End Of The Conversation With My Neighbor He Is Now More Interested In Learning More About The Real Apbt Instead Of These Bullies And I Will Continue To Educate Him On The Real Apbt.
I Told Him That I Was Once One Of Those Guys That Thought A Dog Was A Great Dog Because It Looked Like It And I Was Way Off. He Now Visits My House And Observes My Dog And Watches The Things She Does Like Go At The Spring Pole For Hours Or Pull Wieght Back Forth Even Though She Is Exhausted And He Is Blown Away By The Ability My Dog Has.

Basically What We Have To Do Is Not Only Educate And Demand But We Also Have To Show Them Why What They Are Doing Is Hurting Out Breed. I Know If I Can Turn This Guy Around You All Can Do The Same.

[Michele]

I know a lot of you may not feel the effects of it, especially on the east coast.this is not an accurate statement at all. I think everyone who own's this breed, and even the people that don't own this breed but fights to keep it alive, feels the effects.....

IMO, the thing that should be done now is educate the ignorant as best as you can. Be responsible with your apbt, be even MORE responsible because your actions are what is going to make or break BSL. And don't breed unless you are preserving/bettering the breed. period.....

[ABK]

Lips: I know some ppl will disagree w/ this BUT ... IMO the AST could revive the APBT - that is assuming all APBTs were gone. There are some throwback ASTs - like Noble's Blaze of Glory - with whom a program could be based around. But then again I am not one of the idea that they are different breeds. I just think the AST & APBT are different strains of the same breed.

Other ppl are of the opinion that they are different breeds & that is fine, they have that right ot their opinion. But I am not of that train of thought, as the exact same blood runs in the veins of both strains. And just as you have show springers & field springers, show cockers & field cockers, show coonhounds & field coonhounds, you also have show pit bulls (ASTs) & "field" pit bulls (APBTs).

Anyway, to get back to your original question - if the APBT were wiped off the face of the earth, I do think by taking outstanding specimens of ASTs & breeding to the original pit bull standard, one could eventually resurrect the APBT. After all, the AST is 100% APBT blood & just a show version of the APBT anyway.

As for your second question, that is a bit harder to answer. To save the breed first of all we need to polish up our public image. But since this is not a communist country & one person does not have control over all, that won't happen.

What do I mean by that? Well, for every person like Hoyden or Suki, there are 10 ppl who like to use pit bulls to scare ppl half to death or are street fighting them in back alleys. Now if we could cull those losers & get the positive ppl working together we might be in business, but again, I don't see that happening.

IMO one of the first things we need to do is lobby the ADBA & UKC to drop the ABs, b/c it is usually these dogs who are getting loose & wreaking havok & are the prime type of dogs ghetto trash like to use to intimidate ppl. If anyone has an idea of how to get that ball rolling, I am all ears.

Attila: I see what you mean about laws. And some laws are unneeded. But some are there for a reason. For example, here in Mississippi, ppl DO ride their bikes on the shoulders of highways. It's not uncommon for folks for whatever reason not to have a car or not to have driving privileges, so they bike everywhere they go & some places they need to go can only be accessed by riding on the highway. Dangerous? Heck yeah. But they still do it.

realone: So far as I know no one was supposed to kill Cain. In fact if my memory serves, God marked him specifically so no one would kill him. And yes, it says vengance is reserved for the Lord. But what does that have to w/ dogs? :confused:

pitbull20004: I think that's great you're educating your neighbor. But you have to remember, the person in question has to have an open mind first. If they have a closed mind & no desire to learn, you can preach all you want, but it wiill like talking to a brick wall. I know I've tried to educate closed-minded bully fanciers & it was a total waste of time.

JMHO ...

[Attila]

well Missippi is an interesting place but I didn't see much industry for jobs that was for sure. I think a person should be able to ride a bike on the side of the roads and even the shoulder of a highway. Just not in the middle. But common sence should tell a person that. And if they are dumb enough to ride in the middle then society isn't gaining from that person anyway. thud. lol one more bad apple removed.

[Red Cocaine]

What are we preserving? the APBT as a breed? or the fighting dog and the game it's self?

[Michele]

What are we preserving? the APBT as a breed? or the best fighting dog that ever was?both..............if you breed to preserve/better the breed, aren't you preserving both?

[Red Cocaine]

both..............
well to be completely honest I believe in preserving the Game more than preserving a breed.

[Michele]

well to be completely honest I believe in preserving the Game more than preserving a breed.ok, i understand that.....but, in preserving the Game, aren't you preserving the breed also? that's what these dogs are supposed to be, no? And don't get me wrong, i'm not putting down anyone that does not have a game dog.

[Red Cocaine]

ok, i understand that.....but, in preserving the Game, aren't you preserving the breed also? that's what these dogs are supposed to be, no? And don't get me wrong, i'm not putting down anyone that does not have a game dog.

In part yes, but if I tried a combo of something else and it worked and I got
good dogs from it that was better in the [] than say a "pure" bred then no. I think the Game should take way more importance in keeping the game about than having a "pure bred"

[ABK]

Attila: Yea, Mississippi is an interesting place alright! :p

RC: If you preserve the gameness you preserve the breed. Gameness is the essence of the pit bull & it's what sets the pit bull apart from all other breeds.

[Michele]

In part yes, but if I tried a combo of something else and it worked and I got
good dogs from it that was better in the [] than say a "pure" bred then no. I think the Game should take way more importance in keeping the game about than having a "pure bred"ok, i understand that......but to me, game/breed are one.

[clutch billups]

In part yes, but if I tried a combo of something else and it worked and I got
good dogs from it that was better in the [] than say a "pure" bred then no. I think the Game should take way more importance in keeping the game about than having a "pure bred"

ouch.......

[Red Cocaine]

Attila: Yea, Mississippi is an interesting place alright! :p

RC: If you preserve the gameness you preserve the breed. Gameness is the essence of the pit bull & it's what sets the pit bull apart from all other breeds.

But think about where the APBT got it's gameness from.... remember those little terriers.... Some people for get that this breed was created from a wide variety of scorces to make a dog that could excel in fighting. I still really don't see this "breed" as a real "breed" I think the function is way more important then "pure breds"

[lipshipsattitude]

I meant preserving the breed standard OF the game dog. That includes the physical appearance as well as gameness.

I just cant imagine what is gonna happen to the APBT in 30 years if its only taken Dave Wilson and the other hippo pushers 15 years to do this.

I had speculated that since the Staffie is the closest thing to the APBT and has been preserved as a breed whole a lot better that we may keep them in our back pocket for the future.
Yes I know it is a differnet breed
Yes I know they have different physical charachterisitics
But I also know that it if our breed did parish that is the first alternative I would switch to.
I also think that IF we had to choose a breed to help strengthen the line in the late future they would be a great option verus heading to a different dog family outside of the bullies.....ya know? I mean they came from the same lines, have a lot of the same peds and have the best potential....again its all speculation.

[lipshipsattitude]

But think about where the APBT got it's gameness from.... remember those little terriers.... Some people for get that this breed was created from a wide variety of scorces to make a dog that could excel in fighting. I still really don't see this "breed" as a real "breed" I think the function is way more important then "pure breds"Ok,IF we had to go to such drastic strategies to preserve our breed we could use the Amstaff's and terriers......no?
What if we had to make up a whole new pit bull?
What if the fatties rained supreme?

[Red Cocaine]

To preserve a working dog you must breed working dogs! If you don't breed dogs
that wouldn't be able to go or win in the box the your breeding Staff's anyway

[miakoda]

But think about where the APBT got it's gameness from.... remember those little terriers.... Some people for get that this breed was created from a wide variety of scorces to make a dog that could excel in fighting. I still really don't see this "breed" as a real "breed" I think the function is way more important then "pure breds"
Your comment can bring about a whole new discussion about whether or not the APBT is a 50/50 mixture of Terrier & Bulldog. I personally don't think so. I think there is much less terrier in the APBT that some believe & there is a lot of historical data that also points to this. Therefore, one would have to say that the bulldogs of yesteryears was a gamedog without necessarily having to have terrier blood bring it into the mix. Just my 2 cents

[lipshipsattitude]

To preserve a working dog you must breed working dogs! If you don't breed dogs
that wouldn't be able to go or win in the box the your breeding Staff's anywayHa ha very true! So Rev, whats your plan for the preservation of the breed? And no you cant say that you'll do your own breedings and keep em to yourself......I know you, haha

[realonebulldog]

What are we preserving? the APBT as a breed? or the fighting dog and the game it's self? No soup without water ......

[Attila]

Your comment can bring about a whole new discussion about whether or not the APBT is a 50/50 mixture of Terrier & Bulldog. I personally don't think so. I think there is much less terrier in the APBT that some believe & there is a lot of historical data that also points to this. Therefore, one would have to say that the bulldogs of yesteryears was a gamedog without necessarily having to have terrier blood bring it into the mix. Just my 2 cents
That is correct. some of us say that this is the origianal bull dog, and every thing else is just a weed off and mix of some thing else.
Hail to the Old world bull dogs.

[Attila]

Ha ha very true! So Rev, whats your plan for the preservation of the breed? And no you cant say that you'll do your own breedings and keep em to yourself......I know you, hahaI say the same. I will breed and keep it hidden and to myself if that is what it takes. Do what I was born and trained to do. Pass it off to the most worthy yard hands.

[Red Cocaine]

Ha ha very true! So Rev, whats your plan for the preservation of the breed? And no you cant say that you'll do your own breedings and keep em to yourself......I know you, haha

I can't/won't give away all my secrets.

[Red Cocaine]

Your comment can bring about a whole new discussion about whether or not the APBT is a 50/50 mixture of Terrier & Bulldog. I personally don't think so. I think there is much less terrier in the APBT that some believe & there is a lot of historical data that also points to this. Therefore, one would have to say that the bulldogs of yesteryears was a gamedog without necessarily having to have terrier blood bring it into the mix. Just my 2 cents

That could be true but I do think that some strands come from more of a terrier influence. There is no set ancestors that this "breed" comes from. Back way when they crossed crosses for a job. Lets say you have a Pure Colby and I have a Pure OFRN in reality we have two diff. breeds because we don't share common ancestors unlike say Dobermans that came down from a said number of foundation stock. the point I'm trying to get at also is that the Bulldog and the terrier were working dogs before they were crossed to get the Fighting Dog, the Fighting dog was created to fight what ever the cross was. What we should be consernd with is that we preserve the Game with-in our dogs whatever they may look like. I don't care if it's a Tosa/Patt/Pit cross of sorts if it has the game within him he is far better than any shell thats called a Pit Bull

[TENNESSEE]

Ive read every post and I still dont really understand why the question was asked...there are many many more dogmen that are off the internet than on...and there will always be a supply of bulldogs to those who need them...even if they are outlawed in the whole USA...those who need them will get them...those who dont have the contacts to get them will just go to another breed to love...just how do you propose that the american pit bull terrier would becom extinct?

[realonebulldog]

That could be true but I do think that some strands come from more of a terrier influence. There is no set ancestors that this "breed" comes from. Back way when they crossed crosses for a job. Lets say you have a Pure Colby and I have a Pure OFRN in reality we have two diff. breeds because we don't share common ancestors unlike say Dobermans that came down from a said number of foundation stock. the point I'm trying to get at also is that the Bulldog and the terrier were working dogs before they were crossed to get the Fighting Dog, the Fighting dog was created to fight what ever the cross was. What we should be consernd with is that we preserve the Game with-in our dogs whatever they may look like. I don't care if it's a Tosa/Patt/Pit cross of sorts if it has the game within him he is far better than any shell thats called a Pit Bull If you think that the best fightdog worldwide is a product of differend crosses....well I dont have much time so try to make it as short as possible. The oldest terrier races are long and wire-hairy. Short-haired terriers came later (by refining with Bulldogblut).Question 1).How often do wire-hairy or long-haired animals arise from pure Bulldoglines? How many Bulldog-Tosa or Bulldog-Patterdale or Bulldog whatever mixes you know that are CH or Gr. CH ?

[realonebulldog]

Ive read every post and I still dont really understand why the question was asked...there are many many more dogmen that are off the internet than on...and there will always be a supply of bulldogs to those who need them...even if they are outlawed in the whole USA...those who need them will get them...those who dont have the contacts to get them will just go to another breed to love...just how do you propose that the american pit bull terrier would becom extinct?



Bulldogs are the best fighters of the whole dog world .That's why these American lines have spread over the whole globe . Asia, whole Europe, south Amerika, Africa......no this honest breed will never become extinct . They are simply to good at what they do.....REAL ones...

[hashishin]

hello, sorry if i only post now but i've been working in another country.
do you know this info?
in france when bsl was aproved some called "breeders" to save then dog's started to registered then in the LOF (French book of origins -- FCI) like am'staff.
i know and you also that they not only ruined one breed but two breeds.
a friend had imported one am'staff from one the french breeders and the dog was nuts nothing couldn't stop him until his dog got way from the kennel and was stopped by the dog's neighbour (a little frisco/mayday dog).
i think that the 2 breeds are better each one in their path.
they are to different to even tought in joining them also to the years back pitbull bloodlines were used in am'staff conformation breedings and by what i have read the opposit also have been done.
but i don't believe that their can been joined, i think it's a mistake.

for me am'staffs are like piggy banks and here in europe their conformation shows judges like them fat and round with no muscular appearance or to thin dog's.

the gamebreed will always be the one for me.

best regards