Fearful Pup

[Envy's Mom]

I am needing yalls advice. A couple months ago I picked up my first game bred pup. She is Redboy/Jocko off of Munderlyn's Demon and Ciara. My problem is that she is extremely fearful of young males. I have been socializing her in public and other surroundings and it seems to be getting a little better, but if I leave the room she flips out. Whinning, pacing, scratching, she just panics if I'm not in sight. I need advice on what to do to make her a more confident pup. I am about to put her in a group class to see if that helps.

I was wondering if these are traits of her bloodline or if she had a bad experience as a pup, or if its just bad genetics. I am doing all I know to do and it helps a little, butwe need yalls help. She is a better more confident dog in public around men than at our house. I have taken her on a couple walks to benefit rescues and she was awesome.

She is just extemely fearful of young men. She will walk up to them, but if they move or reach out for her she runs and when I say run I mean she will literally hurt herself trying to get away.

I have also noticed she acts better when other dogs are around. If Fanny is there she is competing for affection.

Please HELP!!!!!!!!


She is almost 6 months and 25 lbs.

[Michele]

but if I leave the room she flips out. Whinning, pacing, scratching, she just panics if I'm not in sight
it sounds like separation anxiety.

Who had her before you?

[lipshipsattitude]

Good idea about the group class, great way to socialize her. One thing I have found when we are faced with fearful dogs is that some of us (women) ha ha coddel and try to talk to then soothingly to let them know there is no reason to be afraid.......I've found that has the opposite effect. They take our comforting words as almost praise for their fear. Think about it, everytime she does soemthing good we use our happy "good girl" voice so it would only make sense that when she hears comfort she assumes her fear is for a good reason! I'm not suggesting being mean and pushing her to go play, ha ha but you get my drift?

[ABK]

I have noticed this in some of my dogs. I deal w/ the dogs & my husband has virtually no contact w/ them, so sometimes they can be fearful of men since all they know is me, a woman. A puppy class or other socialization area can help greatly. Since I live in a small town & we don't have a PetCo or anything, I usually take the pup to a friend's house where men hang out. But importantly, when she starts her freak out routine, just hold the leash firmly & ignore her completely. I know this can be hard, esp. if they do the freak out routine in public. More than once I have gotten the "Oh, you cruel owner" look when mine would show out in public. But her adreneline rush can only last so long & she'll calm down eventually. Once she does, then praise her.

[Envy's Mom]

Thanks ABK I am going to start ignoring her if she acts out. Do you think it would help or hurt her to make one of the young males hold her lead? They give her treats and occasionally love her, but she freaks out. I am definatly going to use your advice.

Any more advice is openly welcomed.

Do you think it has been bred into her or maybe her first 12 weeks were not so great?

[lipshipsattitude]

ABK got me thinking......who feeds her? Maybe have the man of the house feed her. Also if you have cooperative guests tell them to ignore her upon entering the house, sometimes people push themselves upon a fearful dog to shwo "hey I'm nice, dont be scared" but she could be percieving the advancement of a stranger in a totally different way, have the guests come in wihtout a big production, and casually toss treats her way in a no pressure kinda feeling. It sure as heck cant hurt. As humans we can be pretty overbearing, reaching behind their head, hugging them, using high pitched voices......in the dog world some of that stuff is interpreted totally different

[Envy's Mom]

I feed her because Brandon is out of town alot. He has been gone 3.5 weeks in the 2 months we've had her. He fed her last night. It seems I'm trying the things yall are recommending. He feeds when he is home. He lets her out of the kennel. The problem is that she growls when she sees men. I give her a stern No and she will stop. In the beginning I would have to touch her scruff (gently) accompanied with a stern No. Now she knows what No means and she will stop, but the poor thing is so tence and shaking. It is getting better, but its not good enough for me to feel comfortable with her in the house with the guys when she is older.


I will try everything.

[Michele]

Do you think it has been bred into her or maybe her first 12 weeks were not so great?
can something like that be bred into a dog?

I wonder if something did happen the first 12 weeks......

[Envy's Mom]

My questions too....

I do think certain genetic traits may be passed on, but I do not know if this is even a trait of the blood or family.

I really hate to believe something happened in her first 12 weeks, but I do not believe she had any socialization before.

[jaystreetsA4]

between 8 and 12 weeks is an important imprinting period for puppies. sounds like she lacked socialization with different types of men during those weeks.

[Michele]

I do think certain genetic traits may be passed on, but I do not know if this is even a trait of the blood or family.
yea, i'm curious as to what others say about this.....

[ABK]

I have recently found mine can be shy if they don't see a lot of men. But the line I run bonds very strongly w/ their family too, so being sold into another family, esp. at a later age can be traumatic for them.

I've had some once they get to their new home act like they've been beaten like a rug, but they haven't had a hand laid on them. I guess the transition is hard on them. I guess in their mind it's like a baby being abandonded by it's momma. All they know (in my case) is me, then all of a sudden they're whisked away & here comes some big ole man, who sounds strange, acts strange & smells strange trying to lay his hands on you.

I guess I'd freak out too. But a little time & patience always overcomes it & once they've overcome their shyness, they are usually the most devoted dogs! ;)

[Envy's Mom]

How long can this transition process last?

Do you think it could be traits in her bloodline as well?

[ABK]

It will depend on how you work w/ her & what method you use. Usually most are over it in a couple weeks.

And yes, shyness can run in bloodlines BUT genetics is not always the cause of shyness. It can be social too.

[Envy's Mom]

I was hoping it was her just her lacking socialization and i could easily help her adjust. I will definately try all the methods you provided. Thank you so much for helping me. I will ignore her when she freaks and hold her leash untill the calms down. I will also lose the sweet voice. I hope she will eventually love men too.

[ABK]

I bet she will. It seems a little discouraging & daunting now, but in a few weeks she should be right as rain!

[Envy's Mom]

Thanks I was not overly confident we could overcome this, but I feel much better now with yalls help. Thanks ABK if I have any more problems with her may I ask you for help?

[ABK]

Thanks I was not overly confident we could overcome this, but I feel much better now with yalls help. Thanks ABK if I have any more problems with her may I ask you for help?
If you'd like to. I will try to help as best I can.

Don't be discouraged. I have yet to hear of a shy dog who stayed shy if the owner worked w/ it. So long as you take time to work w/ her I am sure she will come out of her shell. ;)

[Phebes]

Thanks ABK I am going to start ignoring her if she acts out. Do you think it would help or hurt her to make one of the young males hold her lead? They give her treats and occasionally love her, but she freaks out. I am definatly going to use your advice.

Any more advice is openly welcomed.

Do you think it has been bred into her or maybe her first 12 weeks were not so great?
IMO she had a young man hit her and hit her real good, probably in the head.
APBT have a real long memory and if she is freaking out that badly you can bet in her mind she has a good reason.
Do you know a young man, teenager, who is really good with and loves dogs? If you do have them work with her and do all her feeding.

[ABK]

With all due respect Phebes, that's a bunch of poppycock. While some dogs who have been hit do indeed devlop shyness, shyness is not *always* an indicator of abuse.

As mentioned before, I had one who would act like you beat her like a rug but never had a hand laid on her in anger. She was great w/ me, she was just leery of other ppl touching her. If they went to pet her, she'd duck her head down or if they were too pushy, she'd jerk away. But it wasn't b/c she was hand shy or been beat. It was b/c she was just unsoclialized. :rolleyes:

A lot of ppl automatically conclude if the dog is shy it "must" have been hit. This is not so. A lot of bulldog ppl don't take pups out for fear of theft, disease, etc. & as a result socialization can be missed. Sometimes the only person the dog is accustomed to is it's owner.

Also, certain bloodlines carry a predispition to shyness.

But both can be overcome w/ a little time & patience.

[Patch O' Pits]

It could be poor genetics, lack of socialization, bad experiences, the pup just going through a fear stage, an unstable pup or any combo of those things. I hope it is nothing and she is worked through it. That may not be the case though

Shyness is not a normal trait for this breed IMO and I'd keep a close watch on the pup as you work with her. Have you contacted the breeder?

[Phebes]

With all due respect Phebes, that's a bunch of poppycock. While some dogs who have been hit do indeed devlop shyness, shyness is not *always* an indicator of abuse.

As mentioned before, I had one who would act like you beat her like a rug but never had a hand laid on her in anger. She was great w/ me, she was just leery of other ppl touching her. If they went to pet her, she'd duck her head down or if they were too pushy, she'd jerk away. But it wasn't b/c she was hand shy or been beat. It was b/c she was just unsoclialized. :rolleyes:

A lot of ppl automatically conclude if the dog is shy it "must" have been hit. This is not so. A lot of bulldog ppl don't take pups out for fear of theft, disease, etc. & as a result socialization can be missed. Sometimes the only person the dog is accustomed to is it's owner.

Also, certain bloodlines carry a predispition to shyness.

But both can be overcome w/ a little time & patience.
Yeah you are probably right after all I am only 62 years old and have had a house full of dogs for most of those years so how could I know anything about dogs :)

[ABK]

Hey, I have been around cars all my life, but it doesn't mean I know anything about them. OK, I know some things. But not everything. And I doubt you do either. And while I'm sure you are quite knowledgable in some arenas, I know you don't know it what you'e talking about concerning this particular subject simply by the last 2 posts you made.

I know what I am talking about here b/c I have lived it & went through it just recently. I knew the dog from birth & know for a fact not a hand was laid on her. So I know through personal experince that not all shy dogs have been hit.

To assume all shy dogs were hit as pups is both ignorant & perposterous.

[Attila]

a pup picks up some of its socialization lessons from its Dame. Not really a bred in or genetic thing just learned behavior from the mother or other experiences. Take the behavioralist approach and she will over come this disorder.

[Envy's Mom]

Thanks to all of you that took the time to reply. I appreciate all your advice and will continue to need it while we try to work through this.

I am not rulling out her being hit, having bad genetics,poor socialization, or bad genes. It could be a combo of everything for all I know.

I do know how she was when I got her and I knew then we would probabally have some issues. She was in a suspended kennel with two other pups; one way smaller and one way larger. She had to be cornered to get her out of the cage. I dont believe she had ever been out of that thing. She was missing hair that was just rubbed off from the wire cage. The bigest problem was no socialization.

Patch you can PM me about the breeder.

Attila what do you mean by behavorist approach? Do you mean seak out a behaviorist for assistance?

[Phebes]

Hey, I have been around cars all my life, but it doesn't mean I know anything about them. OK, I know some things. But not everything. And I doubt you do either. And while I'm sure you are quite knowledgable in some arenas, I know you don't know it what you'e talking about concerning this particular subject simply by the last 2 posts you made.

I know what I am talking about here b/c I have lived it & went through it just recently. I knew the dog from birth & know for a fact not a hand was laid on her. So I know through personal experince that not all shy dogs have been hit.

To assume all shy dogs were hit as pups is both ignorant & perposterous.
Hum I don't recall posting all shy dogs were hit as pups. I just reread the post and no where do I say all shy dogs were hit as pups.
You sure do assume a lot. You know what happens when you assume don't you?

You had 1 dog that acted this way from birth and was never hit and that makes you an expert?
You also were with the dog every minute since birth and know for a fact not one bad thing has happened to the dog?

Oh also thanks for the name calling. Since the one thing people learn as they get older is how really ignorant they still are I view that as a compliment.

I can also see that you still have a great deal to learn not only about dogs but life as well.

[Suki]

decent info:


http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1612&S=0&SourceID=47
:)

[ABK]

My dear woman, you also have much to learn. No where were you ever called a name. I only said your presupposition was ignorant & perposterous. I never said YOU were ignorant & perposterous. Big difference!

As for your comment, I re-read it as well. You posted as follows:

"IMO she had a young man hit her and hit her real good, probably in the head. APBT have a real long memory and if she is freaking out that badly you can bet in her mind she has a good reason."

Perhaps I am misunderstaning you, but that comment right there seems to say (to me at least) that you are of thae stance that shy APBTs have been hit.

As for the dog, I knew her from birth. And yes, I was w/ her every single minute from birth b/c she lived at my house! So, yes I know for a fact no one ever hit her!

And no, this was not the first dog I have seen like this. I have seen several different dogs from several different yards owned by ppl whom I know would not hit them. I just chose to use this particluar one as an example.

[Michele]

Hum I don't recall posting all shy dogs were hit as pups. I just reread the post and no where do I say all shy dogs were hit as pups.
You sure do assume a lot. You know what happens when you assume don't you?

You had 1 dog that acted this way from birth and was never hit and that makes you an expert?
You also were with the dog every minute since birth and know for a fact not one bad thing has happened to the dog?

Oh also thanks for the name calling. Since the one thing people learn as they get older is how really ignorant they still are I view that as a compliment.

I can also see that you still have a great deal to learn not only about dogs but life as well.Phebes: take it easy. ABK was giving an example of what she went through with one of her dogs. I think you are giving your opinion from a "rescue person" point of view, which if that is the case, maybe alot of your dogs were abused. But some dogs don't have to be abused to be shy. There could be other reasons for the shyness, as a couple of members posted. I think that's all anyone is saying here..

[Patch O' Pits]

I do know how she was when I got her and I knew then we would probabally have some issues. She was in a suspended kennel with two other pups; one way smaller and one way larger. She had to be cornered to get her out of the cage. I dont believe she had ever been out of that thing. She was missing hair that was just rubbed off from the wire cage. The bigest problem was no socialization.

Patch you can PM me about the breeder.

Attila what do you mean by behavorist approach? Do you mean seak out a behaviorist for assistance?
What lines is she and what breeder does she come from? or is she a rescue? What I mean is maybe they can give you info on if this is an issue they are having with their dogs.

Honestly, if she was stuck in a cage and not socialized at all, you've got your work cut out for you will be lucky if that is the only issue she has...

I posted awhile back a thread on training and socializing pups, Although she has missed critical time and inprinting mile markers that is no reason to give up on her. I think you will find the thread useful if you do a quick search

Just start asap to help prevent further troubles and take it slow and steady

[Envy's Mom]

She is Redboy Jocko off of Munderlyn's Demon and Ciara.

Patch I have read your other post and printed it out to take home. I am already doing many of these things. Also I don't want to release info about the breeder, but if you PM me I will tell you somethings.

Thank you all for your help and she is getting better. She will jump in Brandon's chair with him and give kisses. She actually let him pick her up and into the chair last night. We are working really hard to help her overcome these fears. She is also no longer growling when the boys walk in the door.

I will keep yall updated on her progress.

[Attila]

Thanks to all of you that took the time to reply. I appreciate all your advice and will continue to need it while we try to work through this.

I am not rulling out her being hit, having bad genetics,poor socialization, or bad genes. It could be a combo of everything for all I know.

I do know how she was when I got her and I knew then we would probabally have some issues. She was in a suspended kennel with two other pups; one way smaller and one way larger. She had to be cornered to get her out of the cage. I dont believe she had ever been out of that thing. She was missing hair that was just rubbed off from the wire cage. The bigest problem was no socialization.

Patch you can PM me about the breeder.

Attila what do you mean by behavorist approach? Do you mean seak out a behaviorist for assistance?
No. Use behavioral modification and reward for following training. You don't need a shrink to look at the dog. Be your own professional. You target that behavior and mold your training to put the dogs mind on other things bringing it into what it fears and overcomming it as an obsticle.

the bird cage thing is a trip.

[Phebes]

My dear woman, you also have much to learn. No where were you ever called a name. I only said your presupposition was ignorant & perposterous. I never said YOU were ignorant & perposterous. Big difference!

As for your comment, I re-read it as well. You posted as follows:

"IMO she had a young man hit her and hit her real good, probably in the head. APBT have a real long memory and if she is freaking out that badly you can bet in her mind she has a good reason."

Perhaps I am misunderstaning you, but that comment right there seems to say (to me at least) that you are of thae stance that shy APBTs have been hit.

As for the dog, I knew her from birth. And yes, I was w/ her every single minute from birth b/c she lived at my house! So, yes I know for a fact no one ever hit her!

And no, this was not the first dog I have seen like this. I have seen several different dogs from several different yards owned by ppl whom I know would not hit them. I just chose to use this particluar one as an example.

She = all apbts I don't think so. I was only commenting on this dog not all APBT shy or otherwise.
From what I read about the dog's reaction I gave my opinion. The dog was freaky out about young men, not brick walls, balloons, small female children etc etc etc.

Since young males seemed to have been the problem then logic tells me a young man at sometime had something to do with creating the problem.

Envy's Mom wrote-She is just extemely fearful of young men. She will walk up to them, but if they move or reach out for her she runs and when I say run I mean she will literally hurt herself trying to get away.

Now she didn't say she reacts this way to everything, basketballs, feet, large cats, teenage girls, cap guns, bicyles, cartoons, movie theaters or lipstick get my drift? If she had written that the dog was reacting that way to all things then I would have thought the dog was extremely timid. So after reading her first post only I replied. I only gave my opinion in my reply and never claimed any expertise. After which you replied "With all due respect Phebes, that's a bunch of poppycock."
There are many things you post that I do not agree with but I do not tell you it is poppycock and I don't think there is anyway to say that about someone's opinion in a respectful manner.
Then later you post:
To assume all shy dogs were hit as pups is both ignorant & perposterous
There is no way for me to interpret that but as I am ignorant and perposterous to assume that all shy dogs were hit as pups.
Then you post after calling me names:
Perhaps I am misunderstaning you, but that comment right there seems to say (to me at least) that you are of thae stance that shy APBTs have been hit.
Which I, let me repeat it, never said all shy dogs were hit as pups.
I simply expressed the opinion that the dog discussed in the orginal post fit that pattern. Not all shy APBTs not all dogs just that dog as presented by Envy's Mom.

[ABK]

*sigh*

You just don't get it do you? There is no proof whatsoever Envy's pup was ever hit. She never said the dog was hit & she never said she suspected the dog was hit. She just said the dog was scared of men, which could come from lack of socialization as easily as it could have from abuse.

Kathy Davis, trainer & author says:

When a dog reacts fearfully to a man, people tend to jump to the conclusion that a man has abused the dog in the past. (Hmmm. Sound like someone we know??) Possibly that is the case, but often it's a problem of lack of early social experience with men.

I guess it just irks me to see ppl who jump the gun & automatically assume b/c a dog spooks around ppl that the dog was abused. They usually come to this "conclusion" knowing nothing about the dog, save that the dog has a fear for men or strangers.

They see or hear of a shy dog & it's "Oh, poor Fido he/she must have been so terribly abused!" Gag me. Now yes, I will concede that in some cases the dog was abused. But in most cases they haven't.

I have met many shy dogs, both of our breed as well as of other breeds & have yet to have ever meet one that had shyness as a result of abuse. I'd say 95% of the time shyness is the result of undersocliaziation, not abuse.

As for your comment, you are right, it was only your opinion. And you are entitled to it, even if yours may be wrong. Just as I am entlted to mine, even if mine may be wrong.

And if you don't like the manner in which I addressed you, I apologize for that. I don't mean any harm by it, I am just a straight shooter. It is not my nature to sugar coat things & will call B.S. in a second if I think a cow paddy is in the house.

As for yourself, you can think what you like, but I never called you any names. But if you want to play the victim, go ahead. Play away.

[Phebes]

*sigh*

You just don't get it do you? There is no proof whatsoever Envy's pup was ever hit. She never said the dog was hit & she never said she suspected the dog was hit. She just said the dog was scared of men, which could come from lack of socialization as easily as it could have from abuse.

Kathy Davis, trainer & author says:

When a dog reacts fearfully to a man, people tend to jump to the conclusion that a man has abused the dog in the past. (Hmmm. Sound like someone we know??) Possibly that is the case, but often it's a problem of lack of early social experience with men.

I guess it just irks me to see ppl who jump the gun & automatically assume b/c a dog spooks around ppl that the dog was abused. They usually come to this "conclusion" knowing nothing about the dog, save that the dog has a fear for men or strangers.

They see or hear of a shy dog & it's "Oh, poor Fido he/she must have been so terribly abused!" Gag me. Now yes, I will concede that in some cases the dog was abused. But in most cases they haven't.

I have met many shy dogs, both of our breed as well as of other breeds & have yet to have ever meet one that had shyness as a result of abuse. I'd say 95% of the time shyness is the result of undersocliaziation, not abuse.

As for your comment, you are right, it was only your opinion. And you are entitled to it, even if yours may be wrong. Just as I am entlted to mine, even if mine may be wrong.

And if you don't like the manner in which I addressed you, I apologize for that. I don't mean any harm by it, I am just a straight shooter. It is not my nature to sugar coat things & will call B.S. in a second if I think a cow paddy is in the house.

As for yourself, you can think what you like, but I never called you any names. But if you want to play the victim, go ahead. Play away.
No you just don't get it...It was an opinion not a capital crime.
Funny I have met many shy dogs and it was because of abuse (documented abuse)
Here you go calling me names again...now I am a victim.
Have you noticed that I haven't called you any names.
I am a very frank person but I would never put a label on someone on a forum. I have been labeled by you and called by you ignorant, preposterous and now a victim.
I thought this forum was here to discuss our breed of choice, to do what we can to help the breed and to give our opinions.
Obviously our lives have put us in contact with dogs living in different situations, which caused different results, which in turn caused us to have different opinions. I don't belittle your opinion and I would like you not to belittle mine.
So please continue this fight on your own.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/phebes_2006/lovpetday.gif

[ABK]

Obviously our lives have put us in contact with dogs living in different situations, which caused different results, which in turn caused us to have different opinions.
I think that abovementioned statement gets right to the heart of the matter.

As for me calling you names, all I can say about that is ... :rolleyes:

[maryellen1]

why on earth would anyone want to have a line of shy dogs??? why would anyone take a pup they have to "corner to get out of the cage" ?? doesnt anyone want sound stable pups anymore? i know yes, the issues can be worked with hopefully, but why would someone want to breed shy dogs to begin with or buy shy dogs ? this breed is going down the toilet so fast , why have shy dogs being bred or sold???

[puregame]

why on earth would anyone want to have a line of shy dogs??? why would anyone take a pup they have to "corner to get out of the cage" ?? doesnt anyone want sound stable pups anymore? i know yes, the issues can be worked with hopefully, but why would someone want to breed shy dogs to begin with or buy shy dogs ? this breed is going down the toilet so fast , why have shy dogs being bred or sold???
There are many different degrees of shyness. Just because a dog is shy does not make it crap. It may not be a desirable trait in the APBT but shy dogs can still work ( which is what many people use the APBT as, working dogs i.e. catching, weight pull...).

To Envy's Mom .... It can be a slow and painful process but if you have patience you will be rewarded. Some shy dog's or pup's take some time to come around. Keep working with him. Most important remember to use positive reinforcement and do not reward negative behavior (in your case when your dog freaks out about something stay calm... when you are confident your dog is confident too.)
Get her favorite treat or toy and when you encounter men that want to pet her have them give her the treat/toy. Tell them to use a flat open hand to give it to her. If she doesn't take the toy/treat just try again next time... if she does then great. Don't try to push too far, take baby steps.. After she starts taking the treats maybe have them try to pet her after giving her the treat.. Remember if you are nervous or unsure doing this your pup will probably feel that way as well.

Good Luck with your pup.

puregame

[Phebes]

I think that abovementioned statement gets right to the heart of the matter.

As for me calling you names, all I can say about that is ... :rolleyes:
Thank you for your opinion

[ABK]

*** Had to edit post. Sorry! ***

(Too bad too, b/c I thought it was a really good post, but that is a whole 'nother story.)

[Envy's Mom]

Just thought I would give yall an update on how she is doing. She will sit in front of Brandon's chair and relax untill he stands up. She will also "go see daddy" now. She is getting more comfortable around him, but still acts skittish. I can see her always looking for an escape. She always wants a way out. She behaves 100% better on a leash.

She will still not tolerate others if I am not there. Including daddy. She growls in the kennel and if she finally comes out she will growl the entire time and not let anyone close to her. I have instructed no one to let her out if I am not home. It seems like she only will respect another man if she is on a lead.

I am working hard with this little girl and we have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go so please keep your suggestions coming. We need your help.

Thanks for yall help thus far and the best thing we discovered was keeping her on a leash in the house. It has helped tremendiously.