Breeding Cold dogs

[BoiBoi]

So i've been reading about a lot of the famous dogs of the past and it has come to my attention that a lot of those dogs where created from a breeding where the bitch was cold. One that stands out is Ch. Alligator, its stated that his dam was cold but he turned out to be a great dog. Now i hear it all the time that true dogmen only breed dogs that are proven and what not, but by the stories i've read many old time dogmen only focused on proving the sire and weren't too concerned about the dam as long as the bloodlines clicked. Can someone explain to me why this was done, and why they weren't looked down on for doing this type of breeding

[Scotsman]

Most of those people only bred cold dogs if they came from a solid background. Yes it did work out sometimes, but then you have just added that to your gene pool. Also some dogs were called cold, but might have been late starters and never given the chance again.

[ABK]

I guess they weren't looked down upon b/c it was a standard practice. I was even told that one famous old timer said that males were for matching & bitches were for brood.

I had another one tell me that breeding a cold gyp was perfectly fine & that cold gyps sometimes produced the best dogs. I didn't see the logic, but he was much more experinced than I, so I didn't argue.

(BTW, he was right, I once had a cold bitch I bred to a good male & she threw some very good dogs, to include one that would have been dead game if you'd have let him.)

Plus, we're a lot more judgmental these days. Back in the day breeders didn't sling insults like they do today & if a breeder bred a cold gyp & got a dog like Alligator, other breeders could care less if she was cold so long as she was throwing box quality dogs.

As for why they did it, I think it was b/c they were better at analyzing pedigrees than we are today. Sure, we have Compu-Ped & Pedigrees Online, but there is something an old timer can see in a ped that seems to let them know when a breeding will click.

This of course is JMHO. You'll have to find a REAL old timer to accurately answer your questions. But I hope my suppostions helped.

[Lethalpits]

We were arguin about this at the tba show.

Like you said alot of cold dogs were bred and produced, same thing with some quitters. But like Scotsman said you have just added that to your gene pool.

Let's say you get a top notch dog out of a cold bitch, then you start in breeding and line breeding off that top notch dog, somewhere eventually more cold dogs are going to pop up cause not only are you inbreeding off that top notch dog, you are inbreeding off that cold dog as well.'

I don't see anything wrong with trying to breeding a cold bitch to see what you get, but thats all up to you and what you are willing to cull and handle.

This one guy at the show was saying how he's going to try and breed a cold bitch he has, but the bitch will scratch, but when it gets to the other dog it won't bite, but will just get eaten up, come back to the line and scratch again.

We just call em bred to produce..much better chance than breeding a dog un known origin.

But here's a question...


Would you rather try a cold bitch, or a 1xw, 1xl that quit?

[jeeperino]

1xl that quit would be worm food so hes not an option.

If the 1xw showed gameness in his win Id consider him first.

I wouldnt breed a cold dog if I had a choice between 2 similar dogs and if one would start and the other wouldnt. Id use the dog that would start.

Hes gonna breed a dog that will ONLY scratch????? Ive never seen that. How is she scratching if she wont put a tooth in a hog???? I cant visualize that. I picture a dog running like a freight train and making a turn at the end. A scratch IMO is a dog that goes over and takes hold not just a dog that goes over.

[ABK]

I guess it would depend on the circumstances of the quit. For example, I once knew a dog who had an elongated soft palate. He should have never been matched. But he was & of course, his palate swelled & he couldn't breathe. Come his time to scratch he was struggling for breath & passed out on the scratch line. When he came to, he was searching for his opponent, but it was too little too late. A lot of ppl consider him a "cur" b/c he "quit" but if there were circumstances like that surrounding the quit I may consider the dog, esp. if he looked good in the 1xw.

[Scratchy]

Just to add my 2cents, maybe they did that because somewhere down the road they realized that most pups turned out to be like the sire which is a rumor I've heard that a majority of a litters traits come from the sire.

On another note, cold bitch or not, pups are always a 50/50 gamble.

[Scratchy]

I guess it would depend on the circumstances of the quit. For example, I once knew a dog who had an elongated soft palate. He should have never been matched. But he was & of course, his palate swelled & he couldn't breathe. Come his time to scratch he was struggling for breath & passed out on the scratch line. When he came to, he was searching for his opponent, but it was too little too late. A lot of ppl consider him a "cur" b/c he "quit" but if there were circumstances like that surrounding the quit I may consider the dog, esp. if he looked good in the 1xw.
By the story you tell, he didn't quit, the damn dog passed out because of an existing condition. If he got up still looking to go, then hell yeah he may have been worth something.

[ABK]

By the story you tell, he didn't quit, the damn dog passed out because of an existing condition. If he got up still looking to go, then hell yeah he may have been worth something.
Yeah, I thought so too. But a lot of ppl labeled him a "cur" which I thought was stupid.

[Scotsman]

When people bred cold dogs they did so because the dog came from an exceptional background, meaning they had parents and grandparents and siblings that really had what it takes, they weren't just breeding some cold dog that was from an ok background.
The idea of breeding only two good parents that are proven is to increase your chances of having a percentage of good offspring. You want every generation to be better than the previous. So why start with sub par breeding stock, there are so many good dogs being produced these days.

[jeeperino]

IMO the dog that passed out on the line was counted out and didnt quit. That is kinda like the Blind Billy story, didnt quit but was counted out looking for his opponent.

Still talking about the dog that passed out. I wouldnt consider him a cur id consider him a cull unless a surgery could correct the problem. Due to the genetic defect I wouldnt breed to him EVER. Id just use him till the end.

[BoiBoi]

When people people bred cold dogs they did so because the dog came from an exceptional background, meaning they had parents and grandparents and siblings that really had what it takes, they weren't just breeding some cold dog that was from an ok background.
The idea of breeding only two good parents that are proven is to increase your chances of having a percentage of good offspring. You want every generation to be better than the previous. So why start with sub par breeding stock, there are so many good dogs being produced these days.
My thing is, even if the particular dogs parents and grand parents were performers, i would still want to test my stock to see if it was the same as the parents. Its sortof like the whole amstaff thing, those show dogs were originally bred from box winning dogs but over the years because of the lack of testing they have become what they are today. It seems like its the same situation with breeding cold dogs to proven dogs, yea u'll get some fire but u'll also get some duds, now why not try to eliminate that dud possibility by breeding proven to proven

[14rock]

You only hear about the few extreme examples that worked. You have no idea how many thousands of culls off a cold bitch are buried in the backyard, and forgotten about! Seems if people run through 50 breedings, and 1 turns out decent, that's all that matters. Might be good for match dogs, but for brood purposes, that is damn near worthless. You going to stick to 50 cold bitches, cull 5 pups out of every single litter, to get one Alligator?

[Michele]

ok, here's my take on it. Now, don't give me negative rep points, i'm learning.:D


I would think you would want to breed proven to proven. There won't be any mistakes this way. Why take the chance with anything else? People are supposed to be breeding to better/preserve this breed. Any other way, to me, is like experimenting....

[BoiBoi]

You only hear about the few extreme examples that worked. You have no idea how many thousands of culls off a cold bitch are buried in the backyard, and forgotten about! Seems if people run through 50 breedings, and 1 turns out decent, that's all that matters. Might be good for match dogs, but for brood purposes, that is damn near worthless. You going to stick to 50 cold bitches, cull 5 pups out of every single litter, to get one Alligator?
So basically a dog like alligator is a fluke, thats good to know

[bahamutt99]

I wouldn't label a dog who couldn't breathe a cur, but I also wouldn't breed him since the soft palate problems are supposed to be genetic.

[ABK]

I wouldn't label a dog who couldn't breathe a cur, but I also wouldn't breed him since the soft palate problems are supposed to be genetic.
I don't think he bred the dog once he found out what was wrong w/ him. In fact, I think the dog has since passed on (from natural causes).

[YoungLion]

So basically a dog like alligator is a fluke, thats good to know
Fluke? Alligators littermates were not too shabby. <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center align=middle colSpan=3>
OFFSPRING LIST
WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)HAS 12 OFFSPRING

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</TD></TR><TR><TH vAlign=center align=left bgColor=#cdcdcd>OFFSPRING</TD> <TH vAlign=center align=left bgColor=#cdcdcd>SIRE</TD> <TH vAlign=center align=left bgColor=#cdcdcd>DAM</TD> </TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>FLORY'S SUSAN RENEE (1XW) (ROM) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=5779)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>TUDOR'S NIGGER ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=99374)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>PLUMBER'S SOKO (1XL) ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=4355)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>TUDOR'S NIGGER ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=99374)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>HAMMONDS RUFUS ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=38012)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>CH PLUMBERS ALLIGATOR POR (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=11205)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>HAMMONDS' BOOKER T (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=49806)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>PLUMBER'S 500 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=49805)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>HAMMONDS' RUFUS ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=379)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>CH PLUMBER'S ALLIGATOR POR (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=380)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>KING'S SHANE (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=22555)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>PLUMBER'S 500 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=49805)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>KING'S SHANE AKA HAMMONDS' BOOKER T (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=60345)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>PLUMBER'S 500 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=49805)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>KINGS' SHANE (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=50251)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>PLUMBER'S 500 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=49805)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>PLUMBER'S 500 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=49805)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>CH PLUMBER'S ALLIGATOR POR (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=380)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>CH PLUMBER'S ALLIGATOR POR (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=380)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>TUDOR'S NIGGER ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=99374)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>CH PLUMBERS ALLIGATOR POR (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=11205)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>MAYFIELD'S NIGGER AKA TUDOR'S NIGGER ROM (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=378)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center align=left>SMITH'S JAKE (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=71820)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>CH PLUMBERS ALLIGATOR POR (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=11205)</TD><TD vAlign=center align=left>WILLIAMS' SATIN LADY (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=386)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Alligator bred back to SATIN LADY Produced another fluke ROM who produced more flukes. Either THE good stuff came from NIGGER ROM or the breeders knew what worked for them. I think thats what matters is it working for you? if it is working for you and you feeding cleaning and culling more power to ya cold or not. I lean more towards BEST TO BEST but i believe its still a gamble or else everyone would breed CH to CH and ALLWAYS GET ALL CH's but in reality that would be a fluke.

[Lethalpits]

Either way it goes, if you add a cold dog to your breeding program, your going to have that much more culling to deal with. So will the people who base their lines off your yard, the yards after that, etc. Simply because you've added more of what people are not looking for into the program.

[Lethalpits]

Fluke? Alligators littermates were not too shabby.
Alligator bred back to SATIN LADY Produced another fluke ROM who produced more flukes. Either THE good stuff came from NIGGER ROM or the breeders knew what worked for them. I think thats what matters is it working for you? if it is working for you and you feeding cleaning and culling more power to ya cold or not. I lean more towards BEST TO BEST but i believe its still a gamble or else everyone would breed CH to CH and ALLWAYS GET ALL CH's but in reality that would be a fluke.
I don't believe that breeding champions to champions is always the best way to go. From what I've been told and read is that some dogs out there are PRODUCERS and winning athletes usually are nothing more than that, athletes.

A champion is not always going to produce another champion. It may add more mouth, ability or wind to a line, but it usually won't throw a replica.
A producer(ROM, POR) makes champions and other dogs that will also produce. Breeding a ROM/POR to a CH. or GR CH. is the best way to go IMO.

[YoungLion]

I don't believe that breeding champions to champions is always the best way to go. From what I've been told and read is that some dogs out there are PRODUCERS and winning athletes usually are nothing more than that, athletes.

A champion is not always going to produce another champion. It may add more mouth, ability or wind to a line, but it usually won't throw a replica.
A producer(ROM, POR) makes champions and other dogs that will also produce. Breeding a ROM/POR to a CH. or GR CH. is the best way to go IMO.
i agree i am more impressesed with dogs that are producers of producers. and sometimes even with the most careful planned breedings CH. 's never produce their equal. if i had two studs to choose from 1 a GR CH and the other a ROM id probably go with the ROM unless the GR CH was stacked with ROM's in his 1-3rd generations. thats me it might sound foolish to some.

[Caos]

I don´t see any problem in breed cold females but I preferer breed only in hard tested dogs we saw alot cold females who produce good ones so in my opinion it´s better breed a cold that a curr,quiter.