Responsible Peddling?

[BoiBoi]

I've been on this forum for a while now and i've read damn near every post about people getting blamed for peddling pups, shoot i even did some blaming, but now i have a question that has come to my mind lately.

Small kennel operations that breed and sell pups are often critisized by many on this site, yet large kennels like TG's kennel and many others that do the same thing get high fives all around.

My question is why does one peddler get the shit kicked out of them for selling a few pups, yet a large kennel that has many breedings a year gets by without anyone saying anything. Now keep in mind im talking about gamebred kennels, not the big blue kennels. Large kennels make plenty of money off of their pups, shoot people have even stated that to get a pup from TG u'll be paying like $900. Now i know that some people on this site do breed, and i have no problem with that but does it make them a peddler too if they decide they want to sell some of the pups and keep some for themselves?

[MAXIM]

I dont get whats all this talk about peddling and selling pups..If pple wanna sell dogs why cant they? Im so new to all this, and so confused at the same time...Whats wrong with selling pups out of ur litters? S**t, i cant wait to breed Max with my best friends pit bull and then sell them to my other good friends who have been wanting pit bulls for a long time...Does that make me a peddler? Or better yet, does that make me a bad person?

[Michele]

This is my take on it. A responsible breeder, breeds to "better" the breed. If you can't do that, then don't do it. I might get flamed but this is how I feel.

[BoiBoi]

I dont get whats all this talk about peddling and selling pups..If pple wanna sell dogs why cant they? Im so new to all this, and so confused at the same time...Whats wrong with selling pups out of ur litters? S**t, i cant wait to breed Max with my best friends pit bull and then sell them to my other good friends who have been wanting pit bulls for a long time...Does that make me a peddler? Or better yet, does that make me a bad person?
that right there would make u a definate peddler. U'r dog is unproven and im guessing so is ur friends dog so now u are planning on breeding 2 subpar dogs. U should just love ur dog and get him fixed, because there is no reason for u to breed that dog at all. What im talking about is working kennels that have proven dogs not back yard breeders, thats the class u would be considered, just another BYB, so please don't breed that dog its not the right thing to do

[MAXIM]

This is my take on it. A responsible breeder, breeds to "better" the breed. If you can't do that, then don't do it. I might get flamed but this is how I feel.Can u explain it to me plz, im so new to this, theres so much i dont know...I dont get the whole breed to "better" the breed thing!

[BoiBoi]

This is my take on it. A responsible breeder, breeds to "better" the breed. If you can't do that, then don't do it. I might get flamed but this is how I feel.
There is no reason u should get flamed for that, its a very true statement, the only reason to breed is if the individual is definate that the outcome of the breeding will be for the improvement of the breed.

[dakota]

In South Africa, everyone that owns a male and female pit, will breed them.. just cause they can. Normally they have a litter of pups every 6 months. No one would say anything about it, even when they come out all skew and big, cow hocked and everything. They basicly breed cause their friends want puppies and they will make loads of money. Then when the guys that know what they are breeding for, have maybe 3 litters in a year (from 3 different females) - people start critisizing and calling them puppy peddlers. Strange strange world..... :rolleyes:

[BoiBoi]

Hey MAXIM read my signature about lesson one, it should answer some of ur questions

[Michele]

Can u explain it to me plz, im so new to this, theres so much i dont know...I dont get the whole breed to "better" the breed thing!
I don't think i'm qualified to answer that question but there are plenty of people on this board that can explain this to you.

To me, there are good breeders and bad breeders. Bad breeders will breed anything and they don't give a damn. It's the money that motivates them and only the money. They would inbreed because they just don't care. And what they create is horrific.

Good breeders check the lines of the dog to maintain and keep perfection to the breed. Good breeders have responsible homes lined up for the pups before the pups are even born.

If i'm not explaining this the right way, someone correct me. Thanks.

[MAXIM]

that right there would make u a definate peddler. U'r dog is unproven and im guessing so is ur friends dog so now u are planning on breeding 2 subpar dogs. U should just love ur dog and get him fixed, because there is no reason for u to breed that dog at all. What im talking about is working kennels that have proven dogs not back yard breeders, thats the class u would be considered, just another BYB, so please don't breed that dog its not the right thing to doWell, i only wanted to breed mine once, and only because i would rather some of my good friends and family members buy one from me and not elsewhere...Oh and we were gonna keep one pup for us cause i was thinking about having a baby in the next couple of yrs and kind of want more than one dog around...Also i wouldnt charge an arm and leg for the puppies unlike some pple now days do, its crazy!!!...Then Scott and I talked about fixing him, even though in my culture (Russian) its not good fixing dogs, and its kind of against my beliefs, but still i def want to fix him later, but I want to breed him at least once b4 doing that....

[BoiBoi]

I don't think i'm qualified to answer that question but there are plenty of people on this board that can explain this to you.

To me, there are good breeders and bad breeders. Bad breeders will breed anything and they don't give a damn. It's the money that motivates them and only the money. They would inbreed because they just don't care. And what they create is horrific.

Good breeders check the lines of the dog to maintain and keep perfection to the breed. Good breeders have responsible homes lined up for the pups before the pups are even born.

If i'm not explaining this the right way, someone correct me. Thanks.
There is nothing wrong with inbreeding, many respectable dogmen practice inbreeding and line breeding to maintain a certain trait. I think good breeders only breed if they plan on keeping all the pups for themselves and the only way they ever get rid of any pups is if they feel the pup is not up to their standards. Most responsible breeders will cull hard to maintain quality, and only way a pup leaves their yard is if it is fixed and given to a pet home, or farmed out to a close friend to see how the pup turns out.

Now the problem starts when breeders start selling pups, that is where i get all messed up because u have some people that sell dogs and get bashed but other get away with it. Can i get some experienced people to answer my questions

[MAXIM]

I don't think i'm qualified to answer that question but there are plenty of people on this board that can explain this to you.

To me, there are good breeders and bad breeders. Bad breeders will breed anything and they don't give a damn. It's the money that motivates them and only the money. They would inbreed because they just don't care. And what they create is horrific.

Good breeders check the lines of the dog to maintain and keep perfection to the breed. Good breeders have responsible homes lined up for the pups before the pups are even born.

If i'm not explaining this the right way, someone correct me. Thanks.No i get it...And yeah im def not trying to breed Max for $!!!!

[BoiBoi]

Well, i only wanted to breed mine once, and only because i would rather some of my good friends and family members buy one from me and not elsewhere...Oh and we were gonna keep one pup for us cause i was thinking about having a baby in the next couple of yrs and kind of want more than one dog around...Also i wouldnt charge an arm and leg for the puppies unlike some pple now days do, its crazy!!!...Then Scott and I talked about fixing him, even though in my culture (Russian) its not good fixing dogs, and its kind of against my beliefs, but still i def want to fix him later, but I want to breed him at least once b4 doing that....
Think about it this way, Are u prepared to keep all the pups if the need shall arise. Don't assume that ur friends are gonna stick to their word, are u gonna be able to care for a whole litter of pups, which may i add could be around 10 pups if the litter is larger. U have to understand that even if u breed him only once it still doesn't make it right. Ur friends can find a pup from a responsible breeder if they really want one, there is no need for u to breed for them

[ABK]

Can u explain it to me plz, im so new to this, theres so much i dont know...I dont get the whole breed to "better" the breed thing!Maxim, this should answer your question right here ...

http://www.freewebs.com/blackskykennel/leroy.jpg

Do you want to produce THAT?? That is what happens when one doesn't breed to better the breed.

To better the breed you want to produce individuals better than the ones you have. I doubt your dog or your friend's dog has had any health testing, drive testing or temprament testing & their peds are probably subpar. As such nothing from such a union will "better" the breed.

If your friends want a pit bull, tell them to go to Pit Bull Rescue Central. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of pit bulls looking for good homes.

And as a side note, they come in all colors from blue & merle to black & buckskin. They also come in all sizes from XXL to small & all ages from senior to puppy. Most are trained as well.

[MAXIM]

Think about it this way, Are u prepared to keep all the pups if the need shall arise. Don't assume that ur friends are gonna stick to their word, are u gonna be able to care for a whole litter of pups, which may i add could be around 10 pups if the litter is larger. U have to understand that even if u breed him only once it still doesn't make it right. Ur friends can find a pup from a responsible breeder if they really want one, there is no need for u to breed for themI understand & respect that, and no, I dunno if i can care for a HUGE litter!

[MAXIM]

Maxim, this should answer your question right here ...

http://www.freewebs.com/blackskykennel/leroy.jpg

Do you want to produce THAT?? That is what happens when one doesn't breed to better the breed.

To better the breed you want to produce individuals better than the ones you have. I doubt your dog or your friend's dog has had any health testing, drive testing or temprament testing & their peds are probably subpar. As such nothing from such a union will "better" the breed.

if your friends want a pit bull, tell tjem to go to Pit BUll Rescue Central. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of pit bulls looking for good homes.

And as a side note, they come in all colors from blue & merle to black & buckskin. They also come in all sizes from XXL to small & all ages from senior to puppy. Most are trained as well.
WHO IS THAT DOG????

[Phebes]

I dont get whats all this talk about peddling and selling pups..If pple wanna sell dogs why cant they? Im so new to all this, and so confused at the same time...Whats wrong with selling pups out of ur litters? S**t, i cant wait to breed Max with my best friends pit bull and then sell them to my other good friends who have been wanting pit bulls for a long time...Does that make me a peddler? Or better yet, does that make me a bad person?
There are thousands of dogs who need homes and people keep breeding them so they can sell a few to their friends and many of these friends find out they don't like the corner bitten off their antique table in a space of 2 seconds or a hole 2 feet around chewed in the carpet cause they just took a quick shower and didn't put the 18 month old dog in a crate......so in their anger they take the dog to the shelter. That's if the the dog is lucky some people just drive a few miles from home and throw them out of the car....that's how my daughter ended up with her APBT. I was at a school parking lot 8 years ago when a car drove up and a woman threw a 3 month old white and dark chocolate brindle out of her car and drove away. Broke my heart to see this little puppy chasing after the car. I called the pup grabbed her and took her to my daughter house. Told my daughter to come out to the car and she said "You have a dog in there don't you? Well I am not taking it" then she looked in the car, it was love at first site. This is a beautiful female APBT absolutely wonderful with my daughter's 2 and 3 year old daughters who might have had a horrible life or no life at all.
Don't breed your dog for your friends if they want an APBT let them go and adopt one. Cause if you breed it will make you an irresponsible back BYB.

[ABK]

WHO IS THAT DOG????His name is Leroy & he was produced by a man breeding to sell dogs to his "friends."

[BoiBoi]

Ok i feel we're gettin a little off topic, we've been through the whole why should u breed thing a thousand times on this site, MAXIM do some serious reading and research on this site and u'll get ur answer as why not to breed.

Now can we get back to the original question of why its ok for some people to sell pups but not ok for others

[diva]

In my opinion, if you are one on this board going on and on about puppy peddling, then you should not sale any puppies or dogs, especially for a lot of money. You should keep EVERY dog born on your yard, cull it, farm out, or rehome an altered animal without making any money from it. Otherwise, it doesn't make you any better than the people you've bashed time and time again. I'm not saying You specifically boi, just a general term.
I'm no expert, far from it....still learning more and more each day. But, from what I'm reading in to it, folks breed for different reasons. You say to better the breed........what does really mean? It is ILLEGAL to fight dogs. Period. What a person does with their dogs is their own business. But, that can't be a sole reason for breeding dogs. That can not make a dog proven worthy to breed.....because it is ILLEGAL to do so. Now I've read people say a CH or GR CH in conformation or weight pulling does not make the dog worthy of breeding. I've read people say hog hunting does not make a dog worthy of breeding. So, what LEGAL activities can make a dog worthy of breeding?

[Michele]

ABK: that picture scared me......


Also, what about these "designer" breeds. What brilliant moron decided to breed a labrador and a poodle, perfectly good breeds on their own, to create the Labradoodle. I wonder how many health issues this mutt will have now.....all because some moron decided to mess with mother nature....

[Michele]

Sorry BoiBoi......about that last post....back to topic...

[BoiBoi]

In my opinion, if you are one on this board going on and on about puppy peddling, then you should not sale any puppies or dogs, especially for a lot of money. You should keep EVERY dog born on your yard, cull it, farm out, or rehome an altered animal without making any money from it. Otherwise, it doesn't make you any better than the people you've bashed time and time again. I'm not saying You specifically boi, just a general term.
I'm no expert, far from it....still learning more and more each day. But, from what I'm reading in to it, folks breed for different reasons. You say to better the breed........what does really mean? It is ILLEGAL to fight dogs. Period. What a person does with their dogs is their own business. But, that can't be a sole reason for breeding dogs. That can not make a dog proven worthy to breed.....because it is ILLEGAL to do so. Now I've read people say a CH or GR CH in conformation or weight pulling does not make the dog worthy of breeding. I've read people say hog hunting does not make a dog worthy of breeding. So, what LEGAL activities can make a dog worthy of breeding?I understand what ur saying but again im not trying to turn this thread into a why should u breed topic, im trying to keep it on topic which is the whole selling thing

Oh yea and let me add this, just because j-walking is illegal does that mean nobody does it

[Suki]

I would say, as stated already, that a responsible breeder cares first and foremost about the quality of the pups they're 'putting out there' and NEVER either anticipates nor expects to make a buck off the litter. A responsible breeder will have homes lined up long before the litter has been born, including keeping any pups that 'aren't spoken for'. A good breeder, imo, does not breed meerly for the sake of breeding, in that "yeah, i have these two dogs who i 'think' will create a beautiful litter together" and then proceeds to let that happen.


In here:




<DT>Preface (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#preface) <DT>How to find the Responsible Breeder (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#how) <DD>Contact the breed registry. (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#registry) <DD>Contact local breed clubs. (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#local) <DD>Talk to other people who have the breed. (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#owners) <DD>Attend dog events (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#events) <DD>Go to any place where people with dogs gather. (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#gather) <DD>Get involved. Join some of the Internet discussions. (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#discuss) <DD>What about the newspaper? (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#classified) <DD>Alternatives (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#alternatives) <DD>Why can't you just list the good breeders? (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#list) <DT><DT>Making sense of the information you get (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#sense) <DT>Red Flags, Breeders you probably want to avoid (http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/where.html#red) </DT><DT> </DT>there are some helpful tips/guides that may guide some of you on finding a responsible breeder and what, specifically to look for.


As far as being a BYB, here is some info on that as well, taken form a rescue group site:




<DT>Over 10 million homeless animals are euthanised every year in the United States. The death could easily


be stopped by spaying and neutering your pets.

Euthanasia is the single largest cause of death for dogs in the Untied States. Each year 27 million dogs
are born. Five to ten million are classified as 'Surplus' and destroyed (killed). That's about one million a
month. These animals are those who 'must' be killed simply because they are unwanted. These numbers do
not include the millions of dead dogs scraped off the streets, or the hundreds of thousands of abandoned,
severely neglected or abused dogs who never make it to a shelter to be counted and killed.

Most of these animals are young and healthy; in fact, it is estimated that around 80% are less than one
year of age. The problem is simple: we have too many dogs with too few homes available. The solution we
have opted for is to kill the 'extras'. This solution has been considered acceptable by default, as though there
were no other way to control the crisis and we spend over $1 billion every year destroying 'Man's Best Friend'.

Why is this happening in the United States today? The largest contributors to this problem are Backyard
Breeders and Puppy Mills.

The name 'Backyard Breeder' has become very unpopular. Nobody wants to admit they are a backyard
breeder. Many people don't even know they are part of the problem. The only way to stop the needless killing
of dogs is to stop the needless breeding of them.

Every breed of dog recognized by the AKC, UKC or CKC has a written standard, a blueprint of what the
dog should look and act like. These standards were written so that all would know what a quality example of
the breed is and strive to produce dogs that meet or exceed the standard in health, temperament and
appearance. To be sure that you are breeding dogs that meet these standards, your dogs must be judged by
people who have a lifetime of experience among the breed. Do you know the standard of your purebred dog?
Does your dog meet this standard according to an AKC judge? If not, your dog is pet quality. Your dog is to
be loved, cherished, trained, cared for, spoiled and bragged about but it is NEVER to be bred. No matter how
cute or sweet the dog may be, if it is not up to the standard, you have no business breeding it.

If you have a purebred dog, this does not give you the right to breed it. Most purebred dogs are not
breeding quality. If you breed your pet quality dog, you are a backyard breeder. Whether you breed the dog
in your backyard, garage, living room or an expensive hotel room, the term is still backyard breeder. If your pet
quality dog has papers (AKC, UKC, CKC), that's nice but it doesn't change anything. You still don't have the
right to breed it.

If your pet quality dog cost you $500 be glad you had the money to afford it. You still don't have the right to
breed it.

Do you think that you can make your $500 back if you breed your pet quality dog or if your pet is a color or
a size that isn't the breed standard but you just know everyone will want to buy a pup if you breed her? Shame
on you! Now you are a backyard breeder with the purpose of peddling pups for bucks.

If the price for a tail dock or an ear crop may seem high to you, what are you going to do when your
beloved pet needs an emergency C section? Will you even be there to know if she is in trouble? Would you
even be able to recognize the signs before it was too late?

And if you still want to breed your pet quality dog but need to ask who is supposed to cut off the tails and
ears, ask yourself "What in the hell am I thinking?"

Do you think genetic testing is something they used in the OJ trial but has nothing to do with your breeding
career? You are a backyard breeder.

Backyard breeders sell pup's that aren't up to the standard of the breed. They do this for many reasons.
None are good enough reasons to contribute to the killing of the dogs. Period.

Backyard breeders will swear all of their pups went to good homes. They believe this but it's not true.
Some may have been luck enough to go to a good home but more than half will end up dead, in a shelter,
alone on a cold table with a needle sticking out of their leg. Some of those good homes will get tired of the
dog and will just give it away to the first person willing to take it. Some of your beloved dog's children will end
up living alone in a backyard, barking all night, cold and neglected until the owner gets complaints and then the
pup will be dead. Some will be starved and beaten. Some will be bred until they die from it. Some will end up
in a rescue and I will have to find space for them. I will have to teach them that not all humans are bad. I will
remove their fleas and get rid of their worms. I will have them vaccinated for the first time in their lives because
the previous owners neglected to remember. I will spay or neuter the animal to ensure it is not snatched up by
someone looking to make a quick buck. I will do all of these things that the previous owner should have done
because they didn't want to.

Backyard breeders are not responsible pet owners. They think they love the dogs but that isn't really true
because they don't want to bother with all that it takes to breed ethically. They love feeling important when they
say "I breed purebred dogs." but breeding pet quality dogs is not something to be proud of. It is a shame on
our society. It is the reason for the death that occurs in shelters. Why do you want to be part of that?

Do you want to be respected? Spay or neuter your pet dog. There is really no other way. The kinds of
homes that you want for your pets puppies do not want to purchase a pup from you. They are looking for
responsible, respected breeders who are doing something for the breed as a whole. Most of those who will
come running to buy one of your pups are the kind of people I wouldn't give a nasty, aggressive dog to. They
are people who will turn your sweet little puppy into a shelter once the novelty wears off. That is a fact.

Spay or neuter your pets now and tell everyone you know to do the same. Leave breeding to people who
are doing something to better the breed. These people breed for quality, not quantity.

Want to be a respected breeder? Do your research and find an individual who is an educated and
respected member of the dog breeding world. Ask this person to be your mentor. You need to know what you
are doing before you are even ready to begin. Have a savings account ready for any and all problems that you
will encounter. Purchase only top quality bred dogs and plan on showing them. Do everything that your mentor
tells you, he/she has the experience and is not just trying to push you around. Be sure that everything you do
as a breeder meets the standards which have been set for responsible breeders. Or, Don't Breed! It's REAL simple: do NOT breed EXCEPT to add ONLY to the breed betterment!

NOT in hopes of fattening your wallet!!!


<DT>




</DT>EDIT: to add

and yes, i would consider a breeder to be a peddler if even ONE of the pups was not placed in a suitable home, and followed up upon. IMO, a responsible breeder would NEVER allow that to happen.
there's enuff in shelters already, ...
http://brightlion.com/InHope/InHope.aspx watch the vid=:( =THOSE "breeders", imo, are perfect examples of "peddlers".

[MAXIM]

There are thousands of dogs who need homes and people keep breeding them so they can sell a few to their friends and many of these friends find out they don't like the corner bitten off their antique table in a space of 2 seconds or a hole 2 feet around chewed in the carpet cause they just took a quick shower and didn't put the 18 month old dog in a crate......so in their anger they take the dog to the shelter. That's if the the dog is lucky some people just drive a few miles from home and throw them out of the car....that's how my daughter ended up with her APBT. I was at a school parking lot 8 years ago when a car drove up and a woman threw a 3 month old white and dark chocolate brindle out of her car and drove away. Broke my heart to see this little puppy chasing after the car. I called the pup grabbed her and took her to my daughter house. Told my daughter to come out to the car and she said "You have a dog in there don't you? Well I am not taking it" then she looked in the car, it was love at first site. This is a beautiful female APBT absolutely wonderful with my daughter's 2 and 3 year old daughters who might have had a horrible life or no life at all.
Don't breed your dog for your friends if they want an APBT let them go and adopt one. Cause if you breed it will make you an irresponsible back BYB.OMG thats so sad, i almost had a tear when i read that!

[BoiBoi]

I would say, as stated already, that a responsible breeder cares first and foremost about the quality of the pups they're 'putting out there' and NEVER either anticipates nor expects to make a buck off the litter. A responsible breeder will have homes lined up long before the litter has been born, including keeping any pups that 'aren't spoken for'. A good breeder, imo, does not breed meerly for the sake of breeding, in that "yeah, i have these two dogs who i 'think' will create a beautiful litter together" and then proceeds to let that happen.So does that mean TG and other large kennels like him are bad breeders?

[440rider]

that right there would make u a definate peddler. U'r dog is unproven and im guessing so is ur friends dog so now u are planning on breeding 2 subpar dogs.


who's to say those dogs are not proven or they are subpar? it's beyond me to why people post records and acheivements of animals on peds online and on the internet for all to see that's no ones business. Who's to say if we run a small operation and let go some pups that we are "peddlers" because we are not stating times etc. when dealing with the public you dont know wo's on that other line. Talk to some old timers and as what they thought of what others did with their dogs and if they considered others into dogs peddlers because they sold pups. If you dont like what someone else has for sale dont buy it! The finger can be pointed in all directions to why the breed is in the shape it's in!

[MAXIM]

ABK: that picture scared me......


Also, what about these "designer" breeds. What brilliant moron decided to breed a labrador and a poodle, perfectly good breeds on their own, to create the Labradoodle. I wonder how many health issues this mutt will have now.....all because some moron decided to mess with mother nature....
LMAOF!!!!! Labradoodle...

[Phebes]

I've been on this forum for a while now and i've read damn near every post about people getting blamed for peddling pups, shoot i even did some blaming, but now i have a question that has come to my mind lately.

Small kennel operations that breed and sell pups are often critisized by many on this site, yet large kennels like TG's kennel and many others that do the same thing get high fives all around.

My question is why does one peddler get the shit kicked out of them for selling a few pups, yet a large kennel that has many breedings a year gets by without anyone saying anything. Now keep in mind im talking about gamebred kennels, not the big blue kennels. Large kennels make plenty of money off of their pups, shoot people have even stated that to get a pup from TG u'll be paying like $900. Now i know that some people on this site do breed, and i have no problem with that but does it make them a peddler too if they decide they want to sell some of the pups and keep some for themselves?
Tom Garner Kennels produce about 28 litters a year. Making about $220,000.00 a year. That is big business and has nothing to do with breeding for the love of the breed. Many of his dogs are purchased by people living in countries where dog fighting is legal. I guess if you peddle big time it is ok.
Don't get me wrong I love some of his bloodlines but I still cannot jump on board a bandwagon where dogs may end up having a short and painful life in countries where there is no respect for human life much less for the life of a dog.

[purplepig]

I dont get whats all this talk about peddling and selling pups..If pple wanna sell dogs why cant they? Im so new to all this, and so confused at the same time...Whats wrong with selling pups out of ur litters? S**t, i cant wait to breed Max with my best friends pit bull and then sell them to my other good friends who have been wanting pit bulls for a long time...Does that make me a peddler? Or better yet, does that make me a bad person?
Maxim, is the dog you are speaking of in that sig pic?

I have a male dog that I paid a considerable amount of money, and was hoping the dog would end up being a great stud for me. I have spent allot of time with the dog, and love the dog, but I have to take an honest look at what I am gona breed. And at this point the odds of him being bred are slim to none. He will have to show that he is one in a million to be bred here. I for one believe in breed standard. I dont believe just cause we really like a dog, we should throw out the standard. I have not tested this dog with any hogs at this poin, as he is not old enough yet(1year), but he'll get his chance.

Better the breed. That would mean that the pups that come out should be better, not just better than the sir/dame, but they should be a better, trueer example of what a pitbull is. the reason I say not just better than sir/dame is because some people begin with very subpar animals which can never produce a nice bulldog.

Now to the topic at hand. Do I breed? Yes. Do I sell pups? Yes. Do I breed my dogs in the back yard? Yes. Do I breed anything I have just cause they have papers? NO. Do I sell to anyone with the money? No. Do I sell with a contract? Yes. What kind of guarantee do I have? Well, I always tell folks that if they get one of my dogs and it isnt what they wanted, bring it back to me in health and I will replace it w/ another dog. I believe in my dogs, and have been around them better than 22 years. I did not breed them for many years, and my pops was into the dogs, so I was schooled well before even thinking of breeding. MOST PEOPLE WHE ARE BREEDING NOW ARE THINKING ABOUT ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET. THEY SEE HOW MUCH A GAME DOG SELLS FOR, AND THEN SEE HOW MUCH A BLUFF SELLS FOR, AND THEY GET A BLUFF TO MAKE THE MONEY!

[MAXIM]

His name is Leroy & he was produced by a man breeding to sell dogs to his "friends."So what happened to Leroy??????

[dakota]

Yes, it is illegal to fight ur dogs. But by breeding to better the breed doesnt always mean you breeding match dogs. Thats why there is shows - to better the breed. ;)

[BoiBoi]

who's to say those dogs are not proven or they are subpar? it's beyond me to why people post records and acheivements of animals on peds online and on the internet for all to see that's no ones business. Who's to say if we run a small operation and let go some pups that we are "peddlers" because we are not stating times etc. when dealing with the public you dont know wo's on that other line. Talk to some old timers and as what they thought of what others did with their dogs and if they considered others into dogs peddlers because they sold pups. If you dont like what someone else has for sale dont buy it! The finger can be pointed in all directions to why the breed is in the shape it's in!
Im not saying its wrong that small operations sell pups, but it seems like many others see it that way and i would like to know why is one considered responsible and the other is a peddler. Oh and yea her dog is only a pup and she already has plans to breed it, nuff said

[MAXIM]

Maxim, is the dog you are speaking of in that sig pic?

I have a male dog that I paid a considerable amount of money, and was hoping the dog would end up being a great stud for me. I have spent allot of time with the dog, and love the dog, but I have to take an honest look at what I am gona breed. And at this point the odds of him being bred are slim to none. He will have to show that he is one in a million to be bred here. I for one believe in breed standard. I dont believe just cause we really like a dog, we should throw out the standard. I have not tested this dog with any hogs at this poin, as he is not old enough yet(1year), but he'll get his chance.

Better the breed. That would mean that the pups that come out should be better, not just better than the sir/dame, but they should be a better, trueer example of what a pitbull is. the reason I say not just better than sir/dame is because some people begin with very subpar animals which can never produce a nice bulldog.

Now to the topic at hand. Do I breed? Yes. Do I sell pups? Yes. Do I breed my dogs in the back yard? Yes. Do I breed anything I have just cause they have papers? NO. Do I sell to anyone with the money? No. Do I sell with a contract? Yes. What kind of guarantee do I have? Well, I always tell folks that if they get one of my dogs and it isnt what they wanted, bring it back to me in health and I will replace it w/ another dog. I believe in my dogs, and have been around them better than 22 years. I did not breed them for many years, and my pops was into the dogs, so I was schooled well before even thinking of breeding. MOST PEOPLE WHE ARE BREEDING NOW ARE THINKING ABOUT ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET. THEY SEE HOW MUCH A GAME DOG SELLS FOR, AND THEN SEE HOW MUCH A BLUFF SELLS FOR, AND THEY GET A BLUFF TO MAKE THE MONEY!Yes, thats my s**t head!

[BoiBoi]

Maxim, is the dog you are speaking of in that sig pic?

I have a male dog that I paid a considerable amount of money, and was hoping the dog would end up being a great stud for me. I have spent allot of time with the dog, and love the dog, but I have to take an honest look at what I am gona breed. And at this point the odds of him being bred are slim to none. He will have to show that he is one in a million to be bred here. I for one believe in breed standard. I dont believe just cause we really like a dog, we should throw out the standard. I have not tested this dog with any hogs at this poin, as he is not old enough yet(1year), but he'll get his chance.

Better the breed. That would mean that the pups that come out should be better, not just better than the sir/dame, but they should be a better, trueer example of what a pitbull is. the reason I say not just better than sir/dame is because some people begin with very subpar animals which can never produce a nice bulldog.

Now to the topic at hand. Do I breed? Yes. Do I sell pups? Yes. Do I breed my dogs in the back yard? Yes. Do I breed anything I have just cause they have papers? NO. Do I sell to anyone with the money? No. Do I sell with a contract? Yes. What kind of guarantee do I have? Well, I always tell folks that if they get one of my dogs and it isnt what they wanted, bring it back to me in health and I will replace it w/ another dog. I believe in my dogs, and have been around them better than 22 years. I did not breed them for many years, and my pops was into the dogs, so I was schooled well before even thinking of breeding. MOST PEOPLE WHE ARE BREEDING NOW ARE THINKING ABOUT ALL THE MONEY THEY CAN GET. THEY SEE HOW MUCH A GAME DOG SELLS FOR, AND THEN SEE HOW MUCH A BLUFF SELLS FOR, AND THEY GET A BLUFF TO MAKE THE MONEY!
Thats a great post, rep points comin ur way. I feel like its people like urself that keep this breed up to par with what it should be, keep doin what ur doing.

[Michele]

good post Suki.......

[BoiBoi]

Tom Garner Kennels produce about 28 litters a year. Making about $220,000.00 a year. That is big business and has nothing to do with breeding for the love of the breed. Many of his dogs are purchased by people living in countries where dog fighting is legal. I guess if you peddle big time it is ok.
Don't get me wrong I love some of his bloodlines but I still cannot jump on board a bandwagon where dogs may end up having a short and painful life in countries where there is no respect for human life much less for the life of a dog.
Now can someone explain to me how that is being a responsible breeder, is it just because he has great dogs he is breeding that everyone can look past all the dogs he sells. Im not saying that TG is a irresponsible breeder because we all know what kind of dogs he has produced im just saying why does it make it ok for him to sell but not for others

[diva]

I understand what ur saying but again im not trying to turn this thread into a why should u breed topic, im trying to keep it on topic which is the whole selling thing

Oh yea and let me add this, just because j-walking is illegal does that mean nobody does it
I know....I'm just saying it can not be a standard for breeding because some people are not willing to participate in illegal activities. So, I don't think a person not willing to participate should be judged for breeding for weight pulling, hog hunting, etc.

dakota, my question was for those who feel like a show champion isn't a good enough reason to breed.

I apologize for getting off of topic. Back to your regular scheduled program... :D

[diva]

Now can someone explain to me how that is being a responsible breeder, is it just because he has great dogs he is breeding that everyone can look past all the dogs he sells. Im not saying that TG is a irresponsible breeder because we all know what kind of dogs he has produced im just saying why does it make it ok for him to sell but not for others


I think you have asked a good question. I have wondered the same thing before.

[Michele]

Now can someone explain to me how that is being a responsible breeder, is it just because he has great dogs he is breeding that everyone can look past all the dogs he sells. Im not saying that TG is a irresponsible breeder because we all know what kind of dogs he has produced im just saying why does it make it ok for him to sell but not for othersIn my eyes, it doesn't make it ok for him. It sounds like its a doggy making factory. He's in it for money, that's it...he may have great dogs, but the main thing for him is money. He doesn't give a rats ass where the dogs end up.

[diva]

He's in it for money, that's it...he may have great dogs, but the main thing for him is money. He doesn't give a rats ass where the dogs end up.


How do you know that? Have you ever bought a dog from him?

[BoiBoi]

In my eyes, it doesn't make it ok for him. It sounds like its a doggy making factory. He's in it for money, that's it...he may have great dogs, but the main thing for him is money. He doesn't give a rats ass where the dogs end up.
I don't know about that, i've heard that TG is pretty picky in terms of who he gives his dogs to

[Michele]

Tom Garner Kennels produce about 28 litters a year. Making about $220,000.00 a year. That is big business and has nothing to do with breeding for the love of the breed. Many of his dogs are purchased by people living in countries where dog fighting is legal. I guess if you peddle big time it is ok.
Don't get me wrong I love some of his bloodlines but I still cannot jump on board a bandwagon where dogs may end up having a short and painful life in countries where there is no respect for human life much less for the life of a dog.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
28 litters a year? Look how much money this guy makes off the dogs. He is not breeding to better the breed. He's breeding for money. The only difference from him and lets say, a BYB is he has more money so it looks all foo foo....

And no, I never bought a dog from him. I don't own a ABPT and when I decide to get one, it will be from a shelter.

[Attila]

BoiBoi that is a good question. I suppose I don't see the size of the yard as the issue but the reason and dogs that are in it. You can have one dog that is worth breeding or not and you can have 50 that are not as well. I wonder what the stats are for some large yards. How many good produced to how many ehh not so good or average. I wonder if the smaller yard by laws of averages do better or not. I know a small yard, if doing it right has little room for error in that respect. One has to make damn sure their breedings count. not the how many but the why

[pittfallin]

I dont get whats all this talk about peddling and selling pups..If pple wanna sell dogs why cant they? Im so new to all this, and so confused at the same time...Whats wrong with selling pups out of ur litters? S**t, i cant wait to breed Max with my best friends pit bull and then sell them to my other good friends who have been wanting pit bulls for a long time...Does that make me a peddler? Or better yet, does that make me a bad person?i cant believe that someone didnt pick up on this....reading that almost pissed me off.

please dont breed your dog, your not only hasnt done anything to be bred...ANYTHING...no show no weight pull, nothing
its just another big blue razors edge dog making it had for people that try to impeove the opionions of blue dogs...

[Verderben]

Damn in the time it took me to get all my dogs out on thier chains this thread jumped from 1 page to 5 !! Now I gotta read all five pages so I don't repeat something someone else said!

[pittfallin]

im sorry to act like a jackass but i feel like hell this morning. ...

[BoiBoi]

BoiBoi that is a good question. I suppose I don't see the size of the yard as the issue but the reason and dogs that are in it. You can have one dog that is worth breeding or not and you can have 50 that are not as well. I wonder what the stats are for some large yards. How many good produced to how many ehh not so good or average. I wonder if the smaller yard by laws of averages do better or not. I know a small yard, if doing it right has little room for error in that respect. One has to make damn sure their breedings count. not the how many but the why
I see what u mean and it makes perfect sense. Now what about this, what about people who have bought themselves some proven stock and start breeding and selling pups, is that wrong or is it ok because of the quality of the dogs.

[pittfallin]

I see what u mean and it makes perfect sense. Now what about this, what about people who have bought themselves some proven stock and start breeding and selling pups, is that wrong or is it ok because of the quality of the dogs.good question, ive wondered these thinkgs before but didnt know how to ask

[Attila]

28 litters a year? Look how much money this guy makes off the dogs. He is not breeding to better the breed. He's breeding for money. The only difference from him and lets say, a BYB is he has more money so it looks all foo foo....

And no, I never bought a dog from him. I don't own a ABPT and when I decide to get one, it will be from a shelter.
You don't know what he breeds for unless you have sat on his yard.

I wouldn't get anything from a shelter. That is just cleaning up after some shit breeder. I am not going to help them at all no matter how indirect it is.

[Attila]

I see what u mean and it makes perfect sense. Now what about this, what about people who have bought themselves some proven stock and start breeding and selling pups, is that wrong or is it ok because of the quality of the dogs.
Once again it is the why they are breeding. Are you producing to expand your own yard or better it and better some others. Or are you just pumping out pups to make a profit.

[Michele]

You don't know what he breeds for unless you have sat on his yard.

I wouldn't get anything from a shelter. That is just cleaning up after some shit breeder. I am not going to help them at all no matter how indirect it is.
You are right. I should not make assumptions unless I do sit on his yard.

As far as shelter dogs, we have to agree to disagree on that. I understand where you are coming from, but so many of them get PTS....it breaks my heart.

[BoiBoi]

Once again it is the why they are breeding. Are you producing to expand your own yard or better it and better some others. Or are you just pumping out pups to make a profit.
Ok well what if they are doing a little bit of both, keeping some and selling some

[Michele]

Once again it is the why they are breeding. Are you producing to expand your own yard or better it and better some others. Or are you just pumping out pups to make a profit.
I can understand if you are producing to expand your own yard. Pumping out pups for money is a big no-no in my book.

I do know a dog woman and her dogs are awesome. That would be my only other option, besides a shelter if I was going to get a ABPT.

[GSDbulldog]

There are too damn many "pit bulls" as it is. I do not care about the quality so much of the dogs you are peddlin' off, but you damn sure better hand them off to the right people or keep them on your own yard.

To me a peddler does not have to sell soley for money, and they can have the best of intentions and the best examples of the bulldog breed. However they are close-minded or ignorant about the plight of the breed and are happy to hand dogs off to any Tom, Dick, or Jon. This includes friends & family.

BoiBoi, I agree with you. This double standard is disheartening. However, I cannot comment on TG's breeding practices as I am not familiar with them. 28 litters a year IS excessive, no matter who you are.

[Attila]

Ok well what if they are doing a little bit of both, keeping some and selling some
I thought I touched on this one but I will say again

if they are doing it to improve on their and other yards. I don't see any reason they can't sell a good dog, prospect or even a pup for that matter. So long as they are not out just to make more dogs. If I have not made a breeding that I believe that will produce fine dogs then what have I gained? I don't make any money doing this but I am not a big shot either. don't want to be. I don't like company that much. but there are those people that just change the course of time with their dogs. The Earl Tudor's of the world of dogs. Davis, Boudreaux, and so on. Then there are the lesser ones that made a name too. Then down to the somebody's that had the hear into it and just to keep a good yard running. I don't see any thing wrong with selling a "good" dog. A well established prospect or a pup that has high hopes. But to just let two dogs screw and toss pups to sell them for the hell of it thinking your going to make something doing so isn't worth a shit. I don't think any more of Those like Earl Tudor than I do some of our fine members. I do think less of some one breeding dogs that will never amount to shit, the parents were not worth a shit, grand parents not worth a shit. It is like wtf dudes what is the point. There are those that are big that I wouldn't give a dime for their dogs. and there are some small ones that I would trade my left nut for. It isn't the size of the yard it is what is in it that matters. I have had pleanty of dogs that I have never bred and only a few that I have. More not than do. For one thing I don't feel that there are many people worthy of this breed. Many of those that do should not. You probably would pick out the same ones as I that shouldn't even own a stuffed toy. Or breed any thing including themselves.

[chris66]

What people here are saying is that the blood of the true American pitbull is getting diluted and there are too many who breed without the knowledge and ekspertise needed to breed great dogs that further the blood line...

I am going to breed only when i have true and tested dogs and with the help of pros that insure that i have only the finest and bravest litters.

Just look at the dogs they are passing of as pitbulls these days fat little hippos not capable of sport in anyway. pitbulls are the greatest dogs alive becuse they have been breed right and a skilled few have loved the true blood.

many pits today are nothing but show of dogs for wannabe gangsters and for people that want to look tuff.
Ithink that none of the people here are trying to diss you maxim or anybody else who are amatures but for the love of god think before you breed or we all will end up with little hippos and just a faint memory of the trully greatest dog ever to walk this earth.....

[Attila]

I can understand if you are producing to expand your own yard. Pumping out pups for money is a big no-no in my book.

I do know a dog woman and her dogs are awesome. That would be my only other option, besides a shelter if I was going to get a ABPT.
Well they are not going to give you a dog. Shit even a shelter charges you someting and those dogs are paperless and worthless for show. It is fine if you are only out for some pet. But to me the shelters are full of culls. That is my oppinion like it or not. I don't agree to picking one breed to cull. I think they all should be or none should be. No exceptions

[catcher T]

28 litters a year? Look how much money this guy makes off the dogs. He is not breeding to better the breed. He's breeding for money. The only difference from him and lets say, a BYB is he has more money so it looks all foo foo....

And no, I never bought a dog from him. I don't own a ABPT and when I decide to get one, it will be from a shelter.I am not convinced that he is not bettering the breed,,from what I have seen he puts out some nice dogs and he has very nice stock,,,I believe that TG knows what he is doing,,been in it a long time,,,alot of shelters are not adopting out APBTs and then you really do not know what you are getting,,as far as agressiveness,,unless you are able to get a hold of a puppy,,28 litters a year is alot,,I do agree with that,,,is that factual?

[BoiBoi]

I thought I touched on this one but I will say again

if they are doing it to improve on their and other yards. I don't see any reason they can't sell a good dog, prospect or even a pup for that matter. So long as they are not out just to make more dogs. If I have not made a breeding that I believe that will produce fine dogs then what have I gained? I don't make any money doing this but I am not a big shot either. don't want to be. I don't like company that much. but there are those people that just change the course of time with their dogs. The Earl Tudor's of the world of dogs. Davis, Boudreaux, and so on. Then there are the lesser ones that made a name too. Then down to the somebody's that had the hear into it and just to keep a good yard running. I don't see any thing wrong with selling a "good" dog. A well established prospect or a pup that has high hopes. But to just let two dogs screw and toss pups to sell them for the hell of it thinking your going to make something doing so isn't worth a shit. I don't think any more of Those like Earl Tudor than I do some of our fine members. I do think less of some one breeding dogs that will never amount to shit, the parents were not worth a shit, grand parents not worth a shit. It is like wtf dudes what is the point. There are those that are big that I wouldn't give a dime for their dogs. and there are some small ones that I would trade my left nut for. It isn't the size of the yard it is what is in it that matters. I have had pleanty of dogs that I have never bred and only a few that I have. More not than do. For one thing I don't feel that there are many people worthy of this breed. Many of those that do should not. You probably would pick out the same ones as I that shouldn't even own a stuffed toy. Or breed any thing including themselves.
Well thats that. People will be people and will have the free will to do damn near anything they wish, which kinda sux because it just add's to the problem but what can u do, i guess just research and study the hell out of a breeder before u commit to a pup, good stuff

[Bailey]

This is my take on it. A responsible breeder, breeds to "better" the breed. If you can't do that, then don't do it. I might get flamed but this is how I feel.I haven't read all the post as of yet, but when I read this one I got a thought. IMO,using the phrase "bettering the breed" is to loose of a statement because there are many people out there who could give two shits about the history of the breed. Nowadays people think weightpulling, hangtime and milltime are ways to prove a dog.

As for the peddlers question, well we can't stop people from doing what they want, so why bother. Michael Jackson wanted to heal the world but it turned out he had his own problems to deal with.

[BoiBoi]

I haven't read all the post as of yet, but when I read this one I got a thought. IMO,using the phrase "bettering the breed" is to loose of a statement because there are many people out there who could give two shits about the history of the breed. Nowadays people think weightpulling, hangtime and milltime are ways to prove a dog.

As for the peddlers question, well we can't stop people from doing what they want, so why bother. Michael Jackson wanted to heal the world but it turned out he had his own problems to deal with.
LOL good analogy

[Attila]

There are too damn many "pit bulls" as it is. I do not care about the quality so much of the dogs you are peddlin' off, but you damn sure better hand them off to the right people or keep them on your own yard.

To me a peddler does not have to sell soley for money, and they can have the best of intentions and the best examples of the bulldog breed. However they are close-minded or ignorant about the plight of the breed and are happy to hand dogs off to any Tom, Dick, or Jon. This includes friends & family.

BoiBoi, I agree with you. This double standard is disheartening. However, I cannot comment on TG's breeding practices as I am not familiar with them. 28 litters a year IS excessive, no matter who you are.


28 is excessive to you and for me on my yard but I don't have a yard near as big as his or the staff to man it. I have two hired hands at times three. I have a small yard and the farm is part of what they are paid to handle. I am handicapped and I have to have help. at one time I could handle this and more. Some days I don't need any help at all. But I can afford that. I don't make shit off of dogs or livestock livestock feeds us and that is about the extent of it. My pension carrys the rest. Now Tom is a business man and I have never seen him put out shit dogs. Not to say one may not slip by.

Shit happens I suppose.

You are right there are too many damn pit bulls. But their isn't enough good Bull Dogs.

[GSDbulldog]

28 is excessive to you and for me on my yard but I don't have a yard near as big as his or the staff to man it. I have two hired hands at times three. I have a small yard and the farm is part of what they are paid to handle. I am handicapped and I have to have help. at one time I could handle this and more. Some days I don't need any help at all. But I can afford that. I don't make shit off of dogs or livestock livestock feeds us and that is about the extent of it. My pension carrys the rest. Now Tom is a business man and I have never seen him put out shit dogs. Not to say one may not slip by.

Shit happens I suppose.

You are right there are too many damn pit bulls. But their isn't enough good Bull Dogs.
A'int enough good bulldog owners either.

[Michele]

Well they are not going to give you a dog. Shit even a shelter charges you someting and those dogs are paperless and worthless for show. It is fine if you are only out for some pet. But to me the shelters are full of culls. That is my oppinion like it or not. I don't agree to picking one breed to cull. I think they all should be or none should be. No exceptions
I do understand where you are coming from. There is a difference if I was going to get an APBT and let's say, you. I want a pet. So, paper to me, I'd use to wipe my butt. You, on the other hand, (just using you as a general example)may want a game dog. There is nothing wrong with that.

[GSDbulldog]

One man's cull is another man's treasure ;)

[Michele]

One man's cull is another man's treasure ;)
exactly.......

[Michele]

I haven't read all the post as of yet, but when I read this one I got a thought. IMO,using the phrase "bettering the breed" is to loose of a statement because there are many people out there who could give two shits about the history of the breed. Nowadays people think weightpulling, hangtime and milltime are ways to prove a dog.
I think true dog men/women know what bettering the breed means. The people that don't give two shits about the breed, should not be anywhere's near it.

[catcher T]

I haven't read all the post as of yet, but when I read this one I got a thought. IMO,using the phrase "bettering the breed" is to loose of a statement because there are many people out there who could give two shits about the history of the breed. Nowadays people think weightpulling, hangtime and milltime are ways to prove a dog.

As for the peddlers question, well we can't stop people from doing what they want, so why bother. Michael Jackson wanted to heal the world but it turned out he had his own problems to deal with.now that you mention "the bettering the breed" stuff,,I have to agree,,whose to say what better is a better,,is my better the same as your better? what better are we talking about? we can only go by standard better, temperment better, proven stock better,,it is kind of vague

[laurah54]

Just wondering, Does personality, intelligence, and temperament matter in "bettering the breed" because it sounds like looks and athletic ability are all you guys care about?

[GSDbulldog]

Just wondering, Does personality, intelligence, and temperament matter in "bettering the breed" because it sounds like looks and athletic ability are all you guys care about?
Those would come along in a good breeding program.

But perhaps "breeding to preserve" would be better wording, no? Simply because when one mentions "bettering the breed", they simply mean to keep the breed true-to-type. You can only reach a certain level of "perfection" in a breeding program. It should be about continuing a great legacy through all means possible (This includes modern day tests and evaluations that have not always been available. That would "better" and "preserve").

[Michele]

preserve is good......

[Lethalpits]

You can tell who's BYBing and who's not. Most of us all know who's breeding crap shoot game dogs and who's producing champions.
Then you've got breeders who do not believe in the practice of the game and breed based on confirmation and work. Nothing wrong with that. At least the dogs are being used for something and their offspring will have(hopefully) the same work ethic as the parents.

That's what it boils down to. If your dogs and your yard serve a purpose in the life of bulldogs, the offspring will also serve a purpose and people will use this purpose with the dogs, continuing the ethics of your dogs.

If your dogs and your yard serve no purpose here and the whole yard could be culled and no one but yourself would care, then there's no need to breed more lifeless dogs. Since your dogs are worthless, when you do breed, you have to con people and friends into getting your pointless dogs.


As far as TG...

28 litters of champion quality dogs a year is better than 28 litters every 3 years of crap bred dogs.

[laurah54]

I think now adays that temperment should be number one in breeding pitbulls. I am totally against fighting dogs and i think that pitbulls have got a bad wrap because of this. Am i alone on this? is this what this website is about?

[purplepig]

now that you mention "the bettering the breed" stuff,,I have to agree,,whose to say what better is a better,,is my better the same as your better? what better are we talking about? we can only go by standard better, temperment better, proven stock better,,it is kind of vague
Oh I believe that you can get pretty specific as a foundation to spring off of. Most people are too lazy to go to ADBA or even the UKC and see what the breed standards are. They are spelled out. Even the tempermetn of the dog is spelled out there. The obvious health problems should rule out a possible candidate, and if we just look at that, without even beginning to go into the heart and competitiveness of the dog, you will find the majority of "pit bulls" out there should be s/n, or culled, which is what I prefer. If you want a pet bulldog, get a real one. A subpar animal will make a subpar pet. You say, "I got one out of standard and it is great!" I am sure you love your dog, but just imagine for a second if the dog was a first rate bulldog. It is the difference between drinking maddog 20/20 and some $5000/bottle wine(I am a country boy and dont know much about wine, but you get my drift).
Now, lets look at these sub-standard "Pet" bulldog's running around, even s/ned, but what is the public seeing? A bunch of mutts running around thinking they are bulldogs. No wonder so many folks think these mutts are bulldogs. Because too many folks have bought into the mentality that by getting a shelter dog they are helping the dogs, when actually in the long run, you are destroying my bulldogs. And you better bet, they are MINE!! They have been one the biggest and best parts of my life here on this rock called Earth. If you really want to do something meaningful and helpfull to the breed, push for mandatory Euth in the shelters, push to punish irresponsible owners, dont breed a dog that is out of standard, dont waqlk around town with your shelter baby that is out of standard.
On a side note, I do realize, not from what I have seen, but from what you have told me that full blooded dogs are dropped off, like the pup in another post. The solution to this is RESPONSIBLE BREEDING! It should be a standard practice for a contract to be written and signed, stating that in any event that the purchaser doesnt want the dog/pup, they should return it to the seller!! That solves that issue.

But, people are people, and it is a shame we cant mandatorily inpose3 a s/n law on some of them!

[SAM_I_AM]

I think now adays that temperment should be number one in breeding pitbulls. I am totally against fighting dogs and i think that pitbulls have got a bad wrap because of this. Am i alone on this? is this what this website is about?Yes, I believe you are alone on this and this is why. Pitbulls did not get a bad rap from dogfighting, dogfighting is why they were produced. Before it was crimilized dog fighting was no so looked down upon. this website is not about dog fighting it is about the preservation of the breed, there are many aspects to the breed other than its ability to fight.

[laurah54]

They were not produced to fight they were produced to help bring down bulls for their owners. dog fighting came along much later.

[purplepig]

I think now adays that temperment should be number one in breeding pitbulls. I am totally against fighting dogs and i think that pitbulls have got a bad wrap because of this. Am i alone on this? is this what this website is about?
You are misinformed. In the hayday of the dog fighting, the dogs were considered the all american dog. Now that dogfighting is illegal, and a felony, thugs and such want to get them so they can look tough, and which in turn makes irresponsible owners, and then a Hollywood mentality got a hold of them "bigger is better", and they began to down breed them to the manbiters you read about, oh, and we cant rule out all the wonderful work that PETA and the humaniacs have done.

I am not telling you dogfighting is cool, but I am telling you that dogfighting is not the reason for their bad rap!

[GSDbulldog]

They were bred to be bulldogs. Tough, tenacious, never-say-quit bulldogs. They can and will excel at any task you put before them.

Dog fighting is not to blame. It's the owners who should not have them and the breeders who gave those idiots a dog. Before the "explosion" a few decades back, we did not have the problems we face today. Popularity is killing the breed, not dog fighting.

Any dog can be sound and friendly, if those are the only reasons you value the breed... Then I feel sorry for you. Like I said, proper temperament comes along with any good breeding program. It's a given... The default so to speak.

-GSD

[Michele]

Dog fighting is not to blame. It's the owners who should not have them and the breeders who gave those idiots a dog.
This sums it up very nicely....

[laurah54]

Dog fighting is not to blame. It's the owners who should not have them and the breeders who gave those idiots a dog.
-GSD
I agree with this. The Large Kennel you guys were talking about someone said they produce game bred dogs and sell most their dogs to people out of the country where dog fighting is legal. what exactly is a Game dog?

[GSDbulldog]

I agree with this. The Large Kennel you guys were talking about someone said they produce game bred dogs and sell most their dogs to people out of the country where dog fighting is legal. what exactly is a Game dog?
A dog that would whoop your ass on the Xbox.

[game_test]

I see what u mean and it makes perfect sense. Now what about this, what about people who have bought themselves some proven stock and start breeding and selling pups, is that wrong or is it ok because of the quality of the dogs.

i think it matters who you are, and what credentials you have to do what you are doing. i wouldnt try to go race cars i dont have any idea about it. wouldnt try selling used ones either, dont know how, wouldnt be very good at it due to lack of experience. same principal goes with everything.

[Verderben]

They were not produced to fight they were produced to help bring down bulls for their owners. dog fighting came along much later.The APBT was not created to take down bulls. The old time bulldogs were used for bullbaiting and when that was made illegal they started crossing the bulldogs with terrier breeds to create the APBT for Dog Fighting.

[laurah54]

What do you think bullbaiting is? Its when a dog fastens itself around the bulls snout and the bull lays down... sorry if i wan't clear before

[BoiBoi]

What do you think bullbaiting is? Its when a dog fastens itself around the bulls snout and the bull lays down... sorry if i wan't clear before
Um have u ever been around an angry bull, they don't just lay down and many dogs were killed by bulls back then, shoot probably far more than by dogfighting

[laurah54]

Um have u ever been around an angry bull, they don't just lay down and many dogs were killed by bulls back then, shoot probably far more than by dogfighting
I am not talking about doing this for sport, i am talking about the farmers who owned bulls and their dogs. This was what they were bred for, not for people's entertainment.

[DED_GAME]

I am not talking about doing this for sport, i am talking about the farmers who owned bulls and their dogs. This was what they were bred for, not for people's entertainment.You talking about a small part of their history that goes way back, they have since then been bred for dog fighting.

And your earlier post about, "what is a game dog?" well you should do some research, their is alot of these dogs history that you need to learn. good luck, this is the site to learn it.

[CrazyK9]

The APBT was not created to take down bulls. The old time bulldogs were used for bullbaiting and when that was made illegal they started crossing the bulldogs with terrier breeds to create the APBT for Dog Fighting.
Well, thats debatable... we have another thread going on about that.

Anyway, responsible breeding is purely a matter of opinion. We all have our standards and they differ among culture, knowledge and experience. So, the definition of peddling will obviously differ as well.

To me, people who post breedings on here, the arrival of pups, or even have websites aren't peddlers. A puppy peddler will give out contact information every chance they get and post breedings looking for interested buyers instead of just "showing off."

As far as outside of the internet and this board, without personally communicating with a breeder, its hard to judge. TG has produced a lot of dogs, good ones and great ones, BUT his lines are everywhere. He is pumping out pups like mad and may be making a lot of money off of his dogs, but at least all that money seems to go right back into them. I can respect that. However, I don't have a whole lot of respect for people who let their blood get into the hands of so many people so easily. So would I call him a peddler? Not exactly. Would I call him a responsible breeder? Again, not quite.

[jadedpitgirl]

I am not talking about doing this for sport, i am talking about the farmers who owned bulls and their dogs. This was what they were bred for, not for people's entertainment.
Laura, you are thinking of the old bulldogs, originally called butcher's dogs. They had no terrier in them. Thier jobs were helping the butcher with his bulls. A job they perfected when they were used in an arena to take down a bull, the sport of the time.
During this time, farmers also used terriers for catching rats. They held contests for those too. An English White Terrier (now extinct) held the record for number of rats killed in a certain time frame.
Around about this same time, bull baiting was outlawed because it was considered cruel. This is when dog fighting became popular. Someone decided to breed the butcher's dogs and the terriers together. This made a dog with the bulldog's strength and the terriers speed and tenacity, a better competitor in the pit. This was in England over 100 years ago. The APBT today, is a decendant of those crosses made in England.

[purplepig]

I am not talking about doing this for sport, i am talking about the farmers who owned bulls and their dogs. This was what they were bred for, not for people's entertainment.The thing I dont like about history is this, the facts change depending upon which historian you speak to. I for one, studying biblical history, exp. around the time of Christ, have found three different historians that have three different perspectives, three different accounts, and three different conclusions.

Thing is, to know history, you must not only know facts. If you were on one side of a building, and I on another, we'd be seing the same building, but our views would describe what would seem to be different buildings, all the time being the same one. So we must look at facts through the glasses of the world view of the era and place we are speaking of. In reality, to say that farmers used these dogs originally to lay a bull down is quite hard to believe, considering that many places people were not land owners, but basically poor sharecroppers. The history which I have heard and makes sense to me is the fact that the Lord's of the land were allowed to have mastiffs, but no peasant was. So they hid the fact of having a strong dog under the pretense of it being a terrier. they were smaller than the mastiffs, and were able to go undetected.
As to the bull baiting, this was clearly a sport. google it on the internet and you will see what it means.

It sounds to me, honestly, that you are a humaniac, who has bought into the belief that these dogs, if left to themselves would lie down together and be wonderfull. Thing is, Mary Poppins died, and you must get over it. I suggest you take the cotton out of your ears, put it in your mouth and learn something, or pick up your weapon and make a stand!

Either you are a humaniac, or a cop trying to bait folks into saying something that you can twist into doing what you really want to do, which is to kill our dogs.

If I am wrong, I am sorry, but I am just stating what I see.

[BoiBoi]

The thing I dont like about history is this, the facts change depending upon which historian you speak to. I for one, studying biblical history, exp. around the time of Christ, have found three different historians that have three different perspectives, three different accounts, and three different conclusions.

Thing is, to know history, you must not only know facts. If you were on one side of a building, and I on another, we'd be seing the same building, but our views would describe what would seem to be different buildings, all the time being the same one. So we must look at facts through the glasses of the world view of the era and place we are speaking of. In reality, to say that farmers used these dogs originally to lay a bull down is quite hard to believe, considering that many places people were not land owners, but basically poor sharecroppers. The history which I have heard and makes sense to me is the fact that the Lord's of the land were allowed to have mastiffs, but no peasant was. So they hid the fact of having a strong dog under the pretense of it being a terrier. they were smaller than the mastiffs, and were able to go undetected.
As to the bull baiting, this was clearly a sport. google it on the internet and you will see what it means.

It sounds to me, honestly, that you are a humaniac, who has bought into the belief that these dogs, if left to themselves would lie down together and be wonderfull. Thing is, Mary Poppins died, and you must get over it. I suggest you take the cotton out of your ears, put it in your mouth and learn something, or pick up your weapon and make a stand!

Either you are a humaniac, or a cop trying to bait folks into saying something that you can twist into doing what you really want to do, which is to kill our dogs.

If I am wrong, I am sorry, but I am just stating what I see.LOL damn i don't think i have enough rep points to give u for this post lol good job

[Scotsman]

The thing I dont like about history is this, the facts change depending upon which historian you speak to. I for one, studying biblical history, exp. around the time of Christ, have found three different historians that have three different perspectives, three different accounts, and three different conclusions.

Thing is, to know history, you must not only know facts. If you were on one side of a building, and I on another, we'd be seing the same building, but our views would describe what would seem to be different buildings, all the time being the same one. So we must look at facts through the glasses of the world view of the era and place we are speaking of. In reality, to say that farmers used these dogs originally to lay a bull down is quite hard to believe, considering that many places people were not land owners, but basically poor sharecroppers. The history which I have heard and makes sense to me is the fact that the Lord's of the land were allowed to have mastiffs, but no peasant was. So they hid the fact of having a strong dog under the pretense of it being a terrier. they were smaller than the mastiffs, and were able to go undetected.
As to the bull baiting, this was clearly a sport. google it on the internet and you will see what it means.

It sounds to me, honestly, that you are a humaniac, who has bought into the belief that these dogs, if left to themselves would lie down together and be wonderfull. Thing is, Mary Poppins died, and you must get over it. I suggest you take the cotton out of your ears, put it in your mouth and learn something, or pick up your weapon and make a stand!

Either you are a humaniac, or a cop trying to bait folks into saying something that you can twist into doing what you really want to do, which is to kill our dogs.

If I am wrong, I am sorry, but I am just stating what I see.She does sound very fishy, glad you called her out.

[Michele]

She does sound very fishy, glad you called her out.
you can call someone out, but you don't have to be mean about it....

[SAM_I_AM]

you can call someone out, but you don't have to be mean about it....are you guilty too, I only ask because I didnt find that anyone was being 'mean' as you put it!:D

[Michele]

edited for content I think this is kind of harsh, don't you?

[Michele]

It's better to teach the breeds history to someone who might not know...then call them a tree hugger......

I got called that when i first came here.....but i'm now addicted to the board and have learned alot from it.

[CrazyK9]

I think this is kind of harsh, don't you?
I certainly do... I think this person is just a newbie that has a LOT to learn. Just about everyone was at that point at some time. Thats no reason to call someone any of what was posted above.

[Scotsman]

I think this is kind of harsh, don't you?
Not really, she should maybe get her history staight before jumping and pointing her fingers at people.

[purplepig]

I think this is kind of harsh, don't you?
Sorry to offend you, and CHia, but where I am from, that is not harsh. And I just dont think it is harsh around here either, I may be wrong. Had this taken place several years ago, I might would have been harsh. I am an old construction hand, and many of them couldnt take me back in the day.

See, Government takes away avenues of release and makes them illegal, and people blow up! Even you, telling the walmart folks to go f themselves!! Come on! I said no cuss words, I did not threaten, but spoke what I see, and even said I was sorry if I was wrong! And that is harsh?

Pasetel lek poi los reagan!

[purplepig]

It's better to teach the breeds history to someone who might not know...then call them a tree hugger......

I got called that when i first came here.....but i'm now addicted to the board and have learned alot from it.
So from your experience, being called a tree hugger was a positive experience for you, and was the catalist that drove you into educating yourself? Great!

[Michele]

Not really, she should maybe get her history staight before jumping and pointing her fingers at people.
well, excuse her for not knowing about the breed. Maybe that's why she came here?....geez.....

[purplepig]

well, excuse her for not knowing about the breed. Maybe that's why she came here?....geez.....
If that is why she came here, why start by acting like she know's what she is talking about and trying to correct others that are on the right path?

[Michele]

So from your experience, being called a tree hugger was a positive experience for you, and was the catalist that drove you into educating yourself? Great!
no, being called a tree hugger was not a positive experience for me, but I chose to ignore that particular immature remark and try to learn something, which I have, thanks to alot of people here.

[Michele]

If that is why she came here, why start by acting like she know's what she is talking about and trying to correct others that are on the right path?
I understand where you are coming from. Be better than her and just teach her....

[ABK]

It sounds to me, honestly, that you are a humaniac, who has bought into the belief that these dogs, if left to themselves would lie down together and be wonderfull.LMAO!!! These humaniacs mean well, but are woefully ignorant. Let my dogs out to lie together. You'd be burying dead dogs or at least patching them up ...

BTW, when did Mary Poppins die??!! Dang pig you just ruined my day!!

[purplepig]

no, being called a tree hugger was not a positive experience for me, but I chose to ignore that particular immature remark and try to learn something, which I have, thanks to alot of people here.
Michele, Many times in life, I have seen that painful situations have caused me to reach further. The worst situation in my life was the very best thing that has happened to me. That is how I see what happened to you. You came here w/ an agenda, you were confronted, and then you had to question your beliefs/motives, and decided to be educated. If a person is never confronted on their BS, they'll go on being self decieved, and you cant tell them anything. You wear kids gloves, I take the gloves off. I take very few things seriously, and my dogs are one of them. I cant stand to see misinformation destroy the very best dogs that have ever been on this planet.

[ChiaPit]

I think to be able to teach someone is a gift. I don't think anyone learns from negativity. I think we could all practice patience, understanding, and try harder to learn from each other. Everybody here doesn't have to agree on the point but the way you voice your differences should be adult, and considerate.

[Michele]

Michele, Many times in life, I have seen that painful situations have caused me to reach further. The worst situation in my life was the very best thing that has happened to me. That is how I see what happened to you. You came here w/ an agenda, you were confronted, and then you had to question your beliefs/motives, and decided to be educated. If a person is never confronted on their BS, they'll go on being self decieved, and you cant tell them anything. You wear kids gloves, I take the gloves off. I take very few things seriously, and my dogs are one of them. I cant stand to see misinformation destroy the very best dogs that have ever been on this planet.ok, fair enough. I see your point. And I have done what you did in this thread many many times, just ask Crazy, she'll tell ya. I can sling it with the best of them. I think with Laurah, you scared her off ...LOL.....but, that's her choice if she wants to come back and learn or not....

I'm looking at it from the BSL point of view. The more people that learn, the better it is for fighting BSL. To me, no matter how idiotic a person sounds, when it comes to this breed, i never get mean or nasty because in the back of my head, i'm thinking this: keep this person here so they can learn and then there will be one less ignorant person to bash the breed.

[Verderben]

I am not talking about doing this for sport, i am talking about the farmers who owned bulls and their dogs. This was what they were bred for, not for people's entertainment.I think you are thinking of the old time bulldog. They were used for this as well as bullbaiting. The APBT was bred from these dogs with terriers to create them. They were created solely for dog fighting. Some people may have used them as pets or whatever but the breed itself was created FOR dog fights. The old time farm bulldogs and the APBT are NOT the same dog. The old time bulldogs are more like the modern American Bulldog.

[DryCreek]

Popularity is killing the breed, not dog fighting.
Ah, this is the in your face truth about the problem this breed is facing. If there was not such a demand for them, the supply industry would fall apart.

The well known kennels that have been into these dogs for years, such as T.G. have put their time in to perfect their stock to the point where the bloodlines have become pretty reliable. This is what makes them so popular. 28 litters a year seems overwhelming to me personally, but if the man has the money and help to maintain his yard to a high standard, and continues to produce consistent dogs, he certainly has paid his dues so to speak to allow him the ability to enjoy the fruits of his labor. This is fine by me as long as he keeps to the high standard and works at placing his pups in a good working home.

Can anyone here really argue that he has not earned the right to do so?

Now, if kennels are producing multiple litters every year for the purpose of making money, out of stock that hasn't been perfected by years of labor and experience, and sell all the pups they produce, that IMHO is a peddler.

It takes many years of keeping and testing your stock before you can even remotely consider yourself a true breeder of consistent, quality animals. After having paid your dues and making a name for your dogs, showing that you have learned what works for your blood, and taking the time to only release your dogs to honest working kennels, then you might have made it and might be able to think about maybe being able to breed to sell pups.

Yet even then, I would find it hard not to keep most if not all the pups that I produced LOL.

[purplepig]

ok, fair enough. I see your point. And I have done what you did in this thread many many times, just ask Crazy, she'll tell ya. I can sling it with the best of them. I think with Laurah, you scared her off ...LOL.....but, that's her choice if she wants to come back and learn or not....

I'm looking at it from the BSL point of view. The more people that learn, the better it is for fighting BSL. To me, no matter how idiotic a person sounds, when it comes to this breed, i never get mean or nasty because in the back of my head, i'm thinking this: keep this person here so they can learn and then there will be one less ignorant person to bash the breed.
I can dig the BSL education thing. You need to remember though, many times a person will come on here that wint what they seem. Cops, PETA, ect. trying to bait folks into giving incriminating evidence, and you know that that evidence doesnt have to be illegal to get a yard of dogs euthed. I sensed that this was the situation, and I confronted it. I understand people saying be nice. I am not sorry for how I spoke to this person. I saw them as a person standing in my driveway with a loaded needle trying to put my dogs to sleep. Now, I feel like I was in control and nice, compared to what I would have liked to say! But I did contain myself.

[Michele]

I can dig the BSL education thing. You need to remember though, many times a person will come on here that wint what they seem. Cops, PETA, ect. trying to bait folks into giving incriminating evidence, and you know that that evidence doesnt have to be illegal to get a yard of dogs euthed. I sensed that this was the situation, and I confronted it. I understand people saying be nice. I am not sorry for how I spoke to this person. I saw them as a person standing in my driveway with a loaded needle trying to put my dogs to sleep. Now, I feel like I was in control and nice, compared to what I would have liked to say! But I did contain myself.
ok, i understand what you are saying. I believe we are on the same page, but just express it a bit differently....hey, here in New York, if you said that to someone, that would still be considered polite..LOL.....

[BoiBoi]

I can dig the BSL education thing. You need to remember though, many times a person will come on here that wint what they seem. Cops, PETA, ect. trying to bait folks into giving incriminating evidence, and you know that that evidence doesnt have to be illegal to get a yard of dogs euthed. I sensed that this was the situation, and I confronted it. I understand people saying be nice. I am not sorry for how I spoke to this person. I saw them as a person standing in my driveway with a loaded needle trying to put my dogs to sleep. Now, I feel like I was in control and nice, compared to what I would have liked to say! But I did contain myself.
U shouldn't have to defend what u did, because if u didn't do it i certainly would have called her out on my very next post, u did what was needed to be done and maybe now she will find other forums to bother with her stupidity

[purplepig]

U shouldn't have to defend what u did, because if u didn't do it i certainly would have called her out on my very next post, u did what was needed to be done and maybe now she will find other forums to bother with her stupidity
Thnx Boi Boi! I had to question myself for a bit!!LOL

And Michele, You are right about the New York comment!!

[bahamutt99]

At the risk of sticking my neck into a potentially charged issue... I think some breeders get by with iffy practices solely on their reputation or length of time in the breed. (Not directing at TG. Just stating generally.) And especially with large-scale operations, people are afraid to question them, because they don't want to incur the wrath of the hundreds of people who own dogs from that person. LOL! If you dare question the mighty whoever, you're a tree-hugger, or a cur-lover.

Everybody has a different idea of what a good breeder is. I want to see a breeder multi-tasking with a handful of good dogs -- rather than a yardful -- paying close attention to detail, pondering each breeding from every direction before they decide to do it. I prefer a small breeder over a large one, because I know I'm going to have that one-on-one relationship and whatever advice I need in the years to come. I also know that they are able to keep tabs on what they've produced more readily than a breeder who might be placing 20, 30, 50 dogs a year. That's why I'll wait on a breeder that only breeds once in a while, rather than going with one that might sell me a dog tomorrow.

Just my opinion.

[SAM_I_AM]

hands down TG has one heck of an operation going. To my knowledge FB had an opertaion going on similar to this, selling dogs in other countries and so forth. My question is, what would a very well known dogman, with a well set up breeding and selling operation have to do to make sure he doesn't end up being the next man in FB's shoes?


sorry to kijack the thread, but since he was brought up...

[BoiBoi]

hands down TG has one heck of an operation going. To my knowledge FB had an opertaion going on similar to this, selling dogs in other countries and so forth. My question is, what would a very well known dogman, with a well set up breeding and selling operation have to do to make sure he doesn't end up being the next man in FB's shoes?


sorry to kijack the thread, but since he was brought up...
Hmm thats a very good question and i was wondering that too, because that possibility is always out there that the same thing can happen to someone else

[simms]

Hmm thats a very good question and i was wondering that too, because that possibility is always out there that the same thing can happen to someone else

He has had his share of issues.

[ABK]

I think some breeders get by with iffy practices solely on their reputation or length of time in the breed. (Not directing at TG. Just stating generally.) And especially with large-scale operations, people are afraid to question them, because they don't want to incur the wrath of the hundreds of people who own dogs from that person. LOL! If you dare question the mighty whoever, you're a tree-hugger, or a cur-lover.Good post Baha & how true!

How many hundreds of pups have ppl like Garner, Boudreaux, the Colbys, Lonzo Pratt, Clemmons & Patrick sold?? And these are only to name a small few.

Furthermore, I know some of the aforementioned ppl ppl dodn't give a flip about where the dog went so long as you had the money ready.

But they aren't peddlers & small town joe is? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Chef-Kergin]

bb- sorry this is off topic, bro but this thread's gone outta control ;)


michele - you to seem like one of these folks with an agenda. i'll be a bit more polite, but you sang the same damn tune when you showd up here, and ppl were screaming AR AR AR!!! like you were the black plauge. you laid low, shut up, and now try and stick up for folks who need to be told these things and learn.

do you all band together in an underground network, and flood sites so you can try and bait ppl into saying things? b/c it seems like that's what's happening.

all these fishy, tree-hugging, "i got my tampon pushed in to far," i-wanna-make-my-dog-a-person humaniacs (sorry pp, i stole that word from you) show up, ask ?s, and when they get a straight answer, they get pushed back on their heels and go into defense mode.....i justdon't know about you all.

[BoogiemanBlood]

Now can someone explain to me how that is being a responsible breeder, is it just because he has great dogs he is breeding that everyone can look past all the dogs he sells. Im not saying that TG is a irresponsible breeder because we all know what kind of dogs he has produced im just saying why does it make it ok for him to sell but not for othersI'd like to know the same thing. i once saw 23 litters advertised for sale at the same time on his website. there are 14 now. same as boiboi no desrepsect just would like someone to logically answer the question he is posing.

[ABK]

HEY!! How would you know what it feels like to have a tampon pushed up too far?? And what in the world makes you think all humaniacs are tampon wearing chicks? Some wear pads, some are on the pill & some are sissy boys!

And I would like an answer to Boi's question too. It is one I have pondered myself & would like to see an answer.

[Attila]

I think true dog men/women know what bettering the breed means. The people that don't give two shits about the breed, should not be anywhere's near it.
And that is the bottom line there.

[Phebes]

As far as TG...

28 litters of champion quality dogs a year is better than 28 litters every 3 years of crap bred dogs.
That's the whole point....there should be no crap litters and only a couple quality litters.
I guess it's ok if you think dog fighting is ok.
Cause he sure as hell isn't breeding these dogs to be childrens pets. 280 dogs a year give or take a few of which 75% or more will never live to see 5 years of age. Now the people who so strongly feel it is ok to breed animals just to possibly kill because they didn't turn out like you hoped would be the first to scream if people started bashing in their childrens heads because at 3, 4 or 12 years of age their kids weren't what they thought they would be.
But you see these dogs are living, breathing, feeling creatures and should not be bred just to see how the litter will turn out and if you don't like what you get cull em.

There is a kennel with a RIP page on their web site. Dog after dog after dog died of a stomach blockage. Chewed a blanket put in dog house on a winter night, $hit some from eating the damn dog house. This kennel sold these dogs to what they say are responsible people and they claim to be resposible breeders. But with all this responsiblity a great many dogs are dying on their chain spots alone. Dogs ranging in age from 3 months to a few years. I'm sorry but I don't see the reason for breeding these dogs....just to die.

I still haven't run across a truely reponsible breeder and the only small yard I have seen pictures of that if I were a dog I would not mind living in is Marty"s yard.

[ChiaPit]

bb- sorry this is off topic, bro but this thread's gone outta control ;)


michele - you to seem like one of these folks with an agenda. i'll be a bit more polite, but you sang the same damn tune when you showd up here, and ppl were screaming AR AR AR!!! like you were the black plauge. you laid low, shut up, and now try and stick up for folks who need to be told these things and learn.

do you all band together in an underground network, and flood sites so you can try and bait ppl into saying things? b/c it seems like that's what's happening.

all these fishy, tree-hugging, "i got my tampon pushed in to far," i-wanna-make-my-dog-a-person humaniacs (sorry pp, i stole that word from you) show up, ask ?s, and when they get a straight answer, they get pushed back on their heels and go into defense mode.....i justdon't know about you all.
I don't think your 5 month membership here makes you an expert on anything...especially not who is and who isn't wearing tampons.

[Phebes]

whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by the time you respond to the thread there are 4 or 5 more pages

[ABK]

The sad thing is you get crap in every litter. Heck, they bred 2 of the best dogs of modern times together - GR.CH. Zebo to CH. Honeybunch & I don't think they got anything out of it.

So TG has 28 litters per year. But he is still putting out just as much junk as the breeder breeding 28 litters every 3 years. Yeah, TG had better animals & thus better odds, but his percentile of junk dogs is going to be just as high b/c of the sheer volume he puts out.

As for putting down culls again for what seems like the 101st time, not all breeders kill culls.

And as for culling children, maybe it should be considered. Maybe we would have been less Hitler, less Dahmer, less Osama ... you get the idea.

[purplepig]

I'd like to know the same thing. i once saw 23 litters advertised for sale at the same time on his website. there are 14 now. same as boiboi no desrepsect just would like someone to logically answer the question he is posing.
I will attempt to give you a good answer. It will be from my POV of course, so feel free to disagree. Here goes:

I do not know TG personally, I did not know him when he started, and dont know the ins and out of his operation. So this is just a speculative thing.

If a man goes and buys good stock, breeds, say even several litters, and watches them, which is easy to do in the beggining, campaigns them, and when they show to have the qualities(some will go with one show, if it is a good one), many retire to breed and champ, some wait till grand champ. some will breed before just incase the dog is DG. Either way, only best to best, by watching a couple litters, he'll began to know which pairs produce, and which ones dont, and through the years, with his line in particular(by that I mean the line he is running), he can begin to have an educated shot at what he's gona get. Is it exact science? no, but it can get pretty predictable. So after a person has been doing this for 30 years, they kinda get a 6th sense about it. Some never develop it, others excell. For a person who has developed it, it would not be a stretch with a large yard that he/she knows intimately(very personal and well) to be able to set 30 breedings up in a years time and expect them all to do well. There will always be those that dont do well. And those that dont do well (I am speaking of match quality dogs)from a yard like this, would more than accell as a pet, or any other thing you can think of.

So I said all of that to say this, the responsible breeder part of it is in the making sure that out of standard, subpar animals are culled out of the yard. And I would be willing to bet that he culls pretty good. If he is a business man, then he knows that if he lets culls go out, it will kill his rep, and his business will go down. As to letting them go to onlye responsible people, that is another issue. Someone has already stated that he wont let them go to just anyone, so I am still in projecture.

On a side note, I am of the belief also that the more dogs you produce, if they have any salt to them whatsoever, the more champs you'll produce.

[Chef-Kergin]

I don't think your 5 month membership here makes you an expert on anything...especially not who is and who isn't wearing tampons.
never said i was ;)

i just calls em like i sees em

i see you're no expert, either :)

no one is an expert

i was just expressing my opinion as everyone else does on this forum. :)

[ABK]

I don't think your 5 month membership here makes you an expert on anything...especially not who is and who isn't wearing tampons.
OK, but does it make him an expert on how far one has to be pushed up to be pushed up too far? lamo... http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/happy0032.gif

[Phebes]

The sad thing is you get crap in every litter. Heck, they bred 2 of the best dogs of modern times together - GR.CH. Zebo to CH. Honeybunch & I don't think they got anything out of it.

So TG has 28 litters per year. But he is still putting out just as much junk as the breeder breeding 28 litters every 3 years. Yeah, TG had better animals & thus better odds, but his percentile of junk dogs is going to be just as high b/c of the sheer volume he puts out.

As for putting down culls again for what seems like the 101st time, not all breeders kill culls.

And as for culling children, maybe it should be considered. Maybe we would have been less Hitler, less Dahmer, less Osama ... you get the idea.
LMAO maybe we should

[ABK]

LMAO maybe we shouldI could have done w/o them, that's for sure! :rolleyes:

And from what I understand they start showing that freaky behaviour in childhood so ...

But seriously, you liberal types got us all wrong. We are for pro-life in that we don't believe in killing innocent children. But we are also for the culling of rejects, be they human or otherwise.

[BoogiemanBlood]

That's the whole point....there should be no crap litters and only a couple quality litters.
I guess it's ok if you think dog fighting is ok.
Cause he sure as hell isn't breeding these dogs to be childrens pets. 280 dogs a year give or take a few of which 75% or more will never live to see 5 years of age. Now the people who so strongly feel it is ok to breed animals just to possibly kill because they didn't turn out like you hoped would be the first to scream if people started bashing in their childrens heads because at 3, 4 or 12 years of age their kids weren't what they thought they would