Pick up Game Offspring

[Lethalpits]

Askin this since a buddy's got a planned breedin in mind.

Let's say back in the day when you had the chance to get dogs off a working stock, would you get a pup off a dog that went into a hog headstrong for over 1:15 but got picked up on flats and was still goin deep game like nothin happened?
Or do you think these dogs will only end up throwing more offspring that pretty much got the same game and heart but can't finish?
Or just stick to the winning dogs that are producing?

A guy I knowthat did that is keeping one for stock saying its 'more about when they don't quit.'

So had me thinkin is it the winner or the one that was still goin that you want to keep makin more of?

[Chef-Kergin]

Tell your buddy to get some of the hog's offspring.

I bet pet pigs would beg great for sporting events.

or stick with show stock.

[Lethalpits]

Tell your buddy to get some of the hog's offspring.

I bet pet pigs would beg great for sporting events.

or stick with show stock.
Then we'd need a site called Game Hogs.

Naw, but I'm wondering because we've got a guy that is keeping a male that lost, but was still going crazy when he got picked up in his last hunt, now to keep for offspring.

So I was just wondering if others do that with their stock or if you agree on holding onto a loser, but a deep game dog.

[jaystreetsA4]

i may be wrong but i always thought matching is about gameness not winning?

[Lethalpits]

True that. I guess it depends more on what you are breeding for. Winners or pure game.

[Pipbull]

this is probably where I'll get my head bitten off, but....

I think breeding for gameness alone wouldn't be the smart thing to do. I thought that APBT wasn't bred for one specific thing alone, whether it's size, color, keeping the bloodline going, or being game. What would happen if that's all someone bred for, with no regard for say other working ability and major conformation faults (i'm not talking tail or splayed toes, i'm talking major ones.)

Personally, I'd rather have a dog that can complete the tasks set before them. But then again, I'm no hog hunter.

[CarolinaBoy919]

Personally, I would stick with a dog that has proven itself to be game. If you are worried about the offspring being able to finish, then breed it to a strong finisher. I believe that a deep game dog is the best asset in a breeding program. Especailly when you are going against a hog that is pretty evenly matched. The gamest of the two will always come out on top. Any of the other qualities you are looking for can be taken care of of through selective breeding for those qualities.

[CrazyK9]

Pipbull, I don't think anyone here is for breeding for gameness alone... it definitely should be at the top of the list but not all by itself. APBTs are the total package and thats how people should continue to produce them as.

I say that the said dog is worth feeding and shold be given a chance to show what he can produce.
Then again, I'm someone who would much rather have a dead game dog than a dog that's mouth does all the work for him in a few minutes. I'd also much rather have a cur that throws deep game bulldogs than a dog who has superior drive and mouth but can't produce shit.

[Lethalpits]

Good replies. IMO, I also think game would be the best trait to breed off of. The mouth, wind, confirmation can all be brought on with a good breeding program.

[Pipbull]

Then again, I'm someone who would much rather have a dead game dog than a dog that's mouth does all the work for him in a few minutes. I'd also much rather have a cur that throws deep game bulldogs than a dog who has superior drive and mouth but can't produce shit.
I guess that's the difference, since I am not breeding. I'd rather have a great dog, despite his offspring.

Now, I'm sure this has been beat to death, but I thought that game was kind of a chance thing anyway, more chance than say build and temperament.

[MinorThreat]

gameness first and the rest will follow, without it you dont have sht

give me a good gamedog and I could care less about its conformation

breeding gamedogs to gamedogs, real simple

thats IS whats its about

period

[realonebulldog]

True that. I guess it depends more on what you are breeding for. Winners or pure game.If you breed for gameness and only for that you get winners. If you breed only with winners and only for that you could get really-rough-none-game-dogs. A famous breeder once sayd: I have a bitch that couldnt kill a bob-cat in one hour but she is game to the bone....... I think that bitch was not a hard-mouth dog and she had not much ability but she was game. That breeder put some good on the ground and he breed that bitch.. That speaks for it self.

[PitBull_30]

Gameness first. Mouth and ability second. Game is much harder to maintain in a program. Skills can be crossed into the line. Look at how the Redboy/Jocko line went.

[sedaliapitbulls]

actually this has been a good thread. Learning alot here. I would totally say gameness first.

[BoogiemanBlood]

well opinions are kinda like buttholes.....everybody's got one. anybody that's been around bulldogs for any amount of time.....and i mean real bulldogs not garbage......knows......GAMENESS is what matters.

[sedaliapitbulls]

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well opinions are kinda like buttholes.....everybody's got one. anybody that's been around bulldogs for any amount of time.....and i mean real bulldogs not garbage......knows......GAMENESS is what matters.

[jaystreetsA4]

ha i was on point then.:D

[Lethalpits]

So, then what about the dog that goes for 1:15 on a hog and wins?
Is he just that much better than the losing game dog?

[Chef-Kergin]

So, then what about the dog that goes for 1:15 on a hog and wins?
Is he just that much better than the losing game dog?
make him hog hunt until he shows his want to win while he's behind?

[14rock]

It could mean he's not as good of a hunter, but more then likely it probably says something about the conditioning, and the level of competition.

[purplepig]

Ah, now we hit on something. Conditioning. Take a dog that is game, schooled properly, and a man who knows how to condition, and that dog can beat a better dog that is not conditioned as well. I had an old man tell me once a long time ago that man and dog were 50 50 responsible for success. For those who have been around, you know this to be true.
So to the question of whether the winning dog was game or not, that should have been discovered in the test.
Also, I agree w/Rock again, if they are local's, odd's are the comp. is not as fierce as in the fast lane. If that be the case, both could cur against a good one.

Back in the day, a fella I met had a nice bulldog, from what I understood won allot locally, and he kept tryin to get me to go w/ him. Well, one day I had enough and when all was said and done, there wasnt much to it. And I didnt take one of my top dogs either, I knew the dog wouldnt win. How you may ask was I so sure? Because they did not condition the dog. I dont mean they just didnt know how to, but they didnt even attempt to do it.
Another time, after I was out of the game, I was living in another place, and the folks there would put my dogs down cause I wouldnt go w/ them. Well, after a time, I got tired of the talk, and made a deal w/ a fella for him to get one of my dogs after it was schooled and ready. It was a considerable amount of money I charged him, and didnt even give him a ped or reg. Well, time came to deliver, and I brought the dog to him. He was shaking his head saying "I dont know, everyone says I am a fool to buy that dog from you." He had a few out back he played with. So I said let's go around back. He rolled four of his dogs into him, one at a time, and they couldnt put him behind. LOL And those were the local champs! I heard that ZigZag killed most that he went against, and none could beat him.
I said that to prove a point. Local competition is a whole lot different than in the fast lane. And many have lost allot of money and pride finding that out. I am so far out of the game nowadays that it is pethetic, but you had better bet that if you take a dog that is game as all get out, but no mouth, no smarts, nothing but game, that dog will lose. And that is the name of the game. Win, or lose. If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. And that is exactly why many need to forget about breeding. The dog may be exceptional for your local area, but what about the fast lane. If it cant run there, cull it, save up your feed money you were spending on it, and go and find a real dog worth something. Playing the puppy game is not the way to get started. Get a proven dog/bitch and then go from there.

[realonebulldog]

Ah, now we hit on something. Conditioning. Take a dog that is game, schooled properly, and a man who knows how to condition, and that dog can beat a better dog that is not conditioned as well. I had an old man tell me once a long time ago that man and dog were 50 50 responsible for success. For those who have been around, you know this to be true.
So to the question of whether the winning dog was game or not, that should have been discovered in the test.
Also, I agree w/Rock again, if they are local's, odd's are the comp. is not as fierce as in the fast lane. If that be the case, both could cur against a good one.

Back in the day, a fella I met had a nice bulldog, from what I understood won allot locally, and he kept tryin to get me to go w/ him. Well, one day I had enough and when all was said and done, there wasnt much to it. And I didnt take one of my top dogs either, I knew the dog wouldnt win. How you may ask was I so sure? Because they did not condition the dog. I dont mean they just didnt know how to, but they didnt even attempt to do it.
Another time, after I was out of the game, I was living in another place, and the folks there would put my dogs down cause I wouldnt go w/ them. Well, after a time, I got tired of the talk, and made a deal w/ a fella for him to get one of my dogs after it was schooled and ready. It was a considerable amount of money I charged him, and didnt even give him a ped or reg. Well, time came to deliver, and I brought the dog to him. He was shaking his head saying "I dont know, everyone says I am a fool to buy that dog from you." He had a few out back he played with. So I said let's go around back. He rolled four of his dogs into him, one at a time, and they couldnt put him behind. LOL And those were the local champs! I heard that ZigZag killed most that he went against, and none could beat him.
I said that to prove a point. Local competition is a whole lot different than in the fast lane. And many have lost allot of money and pride finding that out. I am so far out of the game nowadays that it is pethetic, but you had better bet that if you take a dog that is game as all get out, but no mouth, no smarts, nothing but game, that dog will lose. And that is the name of the game. Win, or lose. If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. And that is exactly why many need to forget about breeding. The dog may be exceptional for your local area, but what about the fast lane. If it cant run there, cull it, save up your feed money you were spending on it, and go and find a real dog worth something. Playing the puppy game is not the way to get started. Get a proven dog/bitch and then go from there. Some truth in it, for sure but I would never cull a game dog because I fell he could be not enough for ,,the fast lane,,(what ever that means). To be honour wen ever I hear things like ,,fast lane,, or ,,hard mouth,, or ,,brutal destroyer,, I become Distrustful. You talk about money and yes money plays a roll( money plays most times the bad roll) However if we talk about breeding I would rather bred the soft mouthed 10 time game loser then the hard mouthed 30 time winner.....I would (back in the old times) match the destroyer to earn money but breed the proven dog. Sounds maybe dumb but that is my Conviction.

[Chef-Kergin]

"you have to spread reputation around before giving it to purplepig again"

Ah, now we hit on something. Conditioning. Take a dog that is game, schooled properly, and a man who knows how to condition, and that dog can beat a better dog that is not conditioned as well. I had an old man tell me once a long time ago that man and dog were 50 50 responsible for success. For those who have been around, you know this to be true.
So to the question of whether the winning dog was game or not, that should have been discovered in the test.
Also, I agree w/Rock again, if they are local's, odd's are the comp. is not as fierce as in the fast lane. If that be the case, both could cur against a good one.

Back in the day, a fella I met had a nice bulldog, from what I understood won allot locally, and he kept tryin to get me to go w/ him. Well, one day I had enough and when all was said and done, there wasnt much to it. And I didnt take one of my top dogs either, I knew the dog wouldnt win. How you may ask was I so sure? Because they did not condition the dog. I dont mean they just didnt know how to, but they didnt even attempt to do it.
Another time, after I was out of the game, I was living in another place, and the folks there would put my dogs down cause I wouldnt go w/ them. Well, after a time, I got tired of the talk, and made a deal w/ a fella for him to get one of my dogs after it was schooled and ready. It was a considerable amount of money I charged him, and didnt even give him a ped or reg. Well, time came to deliver, and I brought the dog to him. He was shaking his head saying "I dont know, everyone says I am a fool to buy that dog from you." He had a few out back he played with. So I said let's go around back. He rolled four of his dogs into him, one at a time, and they couldnt put him behind. LOL And those were the local champs! I heard that ZigZag killed most that he went against, and none could beat him.
I said that to prove a point. Local competition is a whole lot different than in the fast lane. And many have lost allot of money and pride finding that out. I am so far out of the game nowadays that it is pethetic, but you had better bet that if you take a dog that is game as all get out, but no mouth, no smarts, nothing but game, that dog will lose. And that is the name of the game. Win, or lose. If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. And that is exactly why many need to forget about breeding. The dog may be exceptional for your local area, but what about the fast lane. If it cant run there, cull it, save up your feed money you were spending on it, and go and find a real dog worth something. Playing the puppy game is not the way to get started. Get a proven dog/bitch and then go from there.

[Lethalpits]

Good post Pig.

But I feel like the only way to see if a dog is ready for fast lane hog hunting, is to see whether or not it's dominating the local competition. Kinda like an amateur in boxing. As far as the game issue, its up in the air with me. I'd like a pure game dog, but I'd be leaning on the winner, too. In my eyes the winning dog went into the hunt just as long as the other dog.

[Pipbull]

well opinions are kinda like buttholes.....everybody's got one. anybody that's been around bulldogs for any amount of time.....and i mean real bulldogs not garbage......knows......GAMENESS is what matters.
...and that's why I don't ask questions. I wasn't saying gameness doesn't matter, I just don't get why that over rules all other aspects of the dog.

This is why I like the ADBA standard the best. They say that the APBT is not built for one thing (including gameness), but it is built to win. I guess that's not the popular opinion, though. But I least get it, since they go in to detail explaining it, rather than saying I hang around garbage dogs.....

[TripleJ]

Ah, now we hit on something. Conditioning. Take a dog that is game, schooled properly, and a man who knows how to condition, and that dog can beat a better dog that is not conditioned as well. I had an old man tell me once a long time ago that man and dog were 50 50 responsible for success. For those who have been around, you know this to be true.
So to the question of whether the winning dog was game or not, that should have been discovered in the test.
Also, I agree w/Rock again, if they are local's, odd's are the comp. is not as fierce as in the fast lane. If that be the case, both could cur against a good one.

Back in the day, a fella I met had a nice bulldog, from what I understood won allot locally, and he kept tryin to get me to go w/ him. Well, one day I had enough and when all was said and done, there wasnt much to it. And I didnt take one of my top dogs either, I knew the dog wouldnt win. How you may ask was I so sure? Because they did not condition the dog. I dont mean they just didnt know how to, but they didnt even attempt to do it.
Another time, after I was out of the game, I was living in another place, and the folks there would put my dogs down cause I wouldnt go w/ them. Well, after a time, I got tired of the talk, and made a deal w/ a fella for him to get one of my dogs after it was schooled and ready. It was a considerable amount of money I charged him, and didnt even give him a ped or reg. Well, time came to deliver, and I brought the dog to him. He was shaking his head saying "I dont know, everyone says I am a fool to buy that dog from you." He had a few out back he played with. So I said let's go around back. He rolled four of his dogs into him, one at a time, and they couldnt put him behind. LOL And those were the local champs! I heard that ZigZag killed most that he went against, and none could beat him.
I said that to prove a point. Local competition is a whole lot different than in the fast lane. And many have lost allot of money and pride finding that out. I am so far out of the game nowadays that it is pethetic, but you had better bet that if you take a dog that is game as all get out, but no mouth, no smarts, nothing but game, that dog will lose. And that is the name of the game. Win, or lose. If you cant run with the big dogs, stay on the porch. And that is exactly why many need to forget about breeding. The dog may be exceptional for your local area, but what about the fast lane. If it cant run there, cull it, save up your feed money you were spending on it, and go and find a real dog worth something. Playing the puppy game is not the way to get started. Get a proven dog/bitch and then go from there.Well that kida depends on where you live and how good it is around you. Ive been allover and the best Ive seen has been with in 100 miles of my yard. Yis J

[CrazyK9]

I guess that's the difference, since I am not breeding. I'd rather have a great dog, despite his offspring.

Now, I'm sure this has been beat to death, but I thought that game was kind of a chance thing anyway, more chance than say build and temperament.
You're right. Gameness is typically a hit and miss when breeding, but as others said, gameness is harder to keep in a line than other traits such as mouth, strong hindquarters, straight front legs, stable temperament, etc. That is exactly "why that over rules all other aspects of the dog." So, it's not that anyone is breeding ONLY for gameness because, yeah, the APBT should be a very versatile dog with the physical conformation to work and the mental soundness you can rely on.

If you don't have a breeding program going, then, yeah, a good dog is much better than a producer ...but we are talking about breeding programs here and a great dog that can't produce is no good in one.

[Pipbull]

so gameness is something that you can breed toward?


I guess the way that I've been thinking of it is that is was just sort of when sort of all the pieces came together. Not something that any amount of selective breeding could guarantee.

Thanks CrazyK9

[14rock]

There is never a gaurantee for gameness. All you can do is stack the odds in your favor, generation, after generation. Which do you think is going to produce more gamedogs, the breeding where every dog in the past 4 generations has been checked by you, or the one where maybe the great grandparent is a famous winner, and thats it? In one example, nearly 100% of your dogs genetic make-up consists of game dogs, who proudced gamedogs. In the other, a mere 12.5% of a famous dog, who may or may not of been put behind far enough to be gametested.

Breed for gameness, and the rest will present itself. Why do you think dogmen who haven't stopped in the box in years and years, are able to put out such a high-ratio of gamedogs, in every litter, when breeding within their own family?

[purplepig]

Well that kida depends on where you live and how good it is around you. Ive been allover and the best Ive seen has been with in 100 miles of my yard. Yis J
That is too true. Around me it aint like that. Buch of wanna be's for the most part.

Lethal, when a person has experience, he could, back in the day, test his dog in his own yard, then he'd know whether to run with the big dogs or stay on the porch.

thing is this, after the purchase price, the investment is the same, whether you have a little fish or a big one. And the purchase price is small compared to the upkeep, so, myself personally, cannot justify getting a subpar animal and breeding it, when I can be improving the breed and not destroying it. Now, like I said, best place to start is with a proven dog, from a reputable breeder. Then you will not only have something to begin with, but also something to compare it too.

If all you did was drink cheap whiskey, you would think you had the good stuff, but you really wouldnt. Then 30 years go by, someone gives you some good whiskey, and you slap yourself for wasting all that time drinking the nasty rust remover, and not pursuing the best. Life is too dag gum short not to pursue excelance!

[Pipbull]

If all you did was drink cheap whiskey, you would think you had the good stuff, but you really wouldnt. Then 30 years go by, someone gives you some good whiskey, and you slap yourself for wasting all that time drinking the nasty rust remover, and not pursuing the best. Life is too dag gum short not to pursue excelance!
lmao. Oh well, I guess I won't know my quality until I am around more dogs for a lot longer. I'm ok with waiting, the cheap stuff will still get me drunk until I have time, money, and room for a bottle of the good stuff.


But I think that's enough liquor comparisons for one post. :p