conditioned weight

[jay_cook_79]

Do you have to put your dog through a keep tp find the conditioned weight

[MinorThreat]

most expienced people can look at them hog fat and get an accurate guesstimate

[blackbeard]

Do you have to put your dog through a keep tp find the conditioned weight
What you probably mean to ask is "Do you have to put your dog through a keep to find his real or ideal weight?", because a dog can be in a conditioned state but at the incorrect weight. The answer would be no. All dogs are different so you should move them a bit to see how they feel and act at different weights(stronger, weaker, lethargic, etc). With time you should get better at it, and if you have common sense please use it. There is no secret formula here.

[Scotsman]

Bascially if you drop them by 10% of their body weight is a pretty good rule of thumb, bigger dogs maybe more like 20%. MayDay was 85 on the chain but was shown at 65.
But it depends on the dog some might need a little more and some a little less slimmed off them.

[14rock]

You can look and get a pretty good guess most the time, but if your unsure, a pre-keep should get you a good idea.

[PrNc]

*MayDay was 75 on the chain !

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=560

[davidlau_2002]

i'm a noob but i work my mutt hard at intervals and have fluctuated him about 10 to 12 lbs. down from what i call hog fat. my dog on paper seems to be amstaff and pit. his ideal work rate is not his ideal look though. he works better with a little fat and weight on him but he runs and lasts longer when he is at the lighter end of the spectrum. my dog becomes more lazy too at the lighter end of the spectrum leading me to believe that i either brought him down in weight too fast or i took too much off. would it be a balance between energy level and maximum light weight? that would be a thin line to ride though and given the amount of experience would be the best bet. please pro doggers enlighten us noobs.

in terms of training humans though, i've seen plenty boxers calibrate their weight depending on the punching strength and punching abuse they can take. i've always measured a perfect weight for a boxer to test his weight category by which weighted punch he can take. if i can make 125 lbs i know i cannot be knocked out by an opponent. but at the opposite end i have sparred 150 lb.ers and even though i deflected their shots, those bows felt like meteors through my guard giving me a case of punch drunk. i'm assuming that if a dog is too light mouthed at a certain weight compared to his opponent, it would not be beneficial for him/her to even try at that weight. that dog would have to go down in weight? this idea is purely for the sake of winning of course and not addressing the idea of gameness and putting that as the most important criteria. pro doggers again please enlighten us noobs.

[Scotsman]

*MayDay was 75 on the chain !

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=560

That is new because every article back when he was coming up stated that he was 85 on the chain.

[TripleJ]

i'm a noob but i work my mutt hard at intervals and have fluctuated him about 10 to 12 lbs. down from what i call hog fat. my dog on paper seems to be amstaff and pit. his ideal work rate is not his ideal look though. he works better with a little fat and weight on him but he runs and lasts longer when he is at the lighter end of the spectrum. my dog becomes more lazy too at the lighter end of the spectrum leading me to believe that i either brought him down in weight too fast or i took too much off. would it be a balance between energy level and maximum light weight? that would be a thin line to ride though and given the amount of experience would be the best bet. please pro doggers enlighten us noobs.

in terms of training humans though, i've seen plenty boxers calibrate their weight depending on the punching strength and punching abuse they can take. i've always measured a perfect weight for a boxer to test his weight category by which weighted punch he can take. if i can make 125 lbs i know i cannot be knocked out by an opponent. but at the opposite end i have sparred 150 lb.ers and even though i deflected their shots, those bows felt like meteors through my guard giving me a case of punch drunk. i'm assuming that if a dog is too light mouthed at a certain weight compared to his opponent, it would not be beneficial for him/her to even try at that weight. that dog would have to go down in weight? this idea is purely for the sake of winning of course and not addressing the idea of gameness and putting that as the most important criteria. pro doggers again please enlighten us noobs.Ok I find that you can pull a dog down to much and he will be weeker than if you pulled him off the chain. So many doggers ruin a good dog by taking a dog in to light they will loose mouth and power. Now on the other end of the scale if you bring one in to wet and fat he will run hot and then you will play catch up IF he can come out of it. The best way for a new guy is to pre keep him and cut his food slightly and see what wt he still works strong and does not run hot the feed is a huge factor in your dog running hot.think of it as a bank account if you take away and dont give back you will have nothing left. If you are hunting your dog you really need to give 110% to your dog and also understand rest is a huge factor also (cave theory) The better rest the better you heal. I also try and keep my hunting dogs about 2or 3 lbs over the ideal wt . I know some dog men that take a dog below the wt and bring them up in the keep But that does not work well for me. If a dog can be kept around the perfect wt the keep is not as hard on them I have had some dogs that look way bigger than they weigh so some times you have to use the scale before you open your mouth. Its all bout using you head with the dogs they are just flesh and bone you can compare them to your self. Hope this gives you a small insight on this. YIS J

[The Watcher]

J do you feed your dog more less during his keep?
I would like to keep my dog active while on the chain, feeding him the given amount for his weight and weight him eveytime I work him. this would give me an approx. during his keep I would like to increase his food 25% to meet to demands of his workload while he works it off at the same time. this weight should be the same as the approx weight. 2 wks into his keep I would pin point that weight and aim to keep it. maintaining strength and stamina.
I would guess the key is to not let them get rusty and to monitor his daily/weekly weight. get a spiral notebook and make daily notes if you work your dogs like that. invest in a pocket scale, digital ones make a big difference because you can watch the onces flux. I bought mine for $50. online.

[TripleJ]

J do you feed your dog more less during his keep?
I would like to keep my dog active while on the chain, feeding him the given amount for his weight and weight him eveytime I work him. this would give me an approx. during his keep I would like to increase his food 25% to meet to demands of his workload while he works it off at the same time. this weight should be the same as the approx weight. 2 wks into his keep I would pin point that weight and aim to keep it. maintaining strength and stamina.
I would guess the key is to not let them get rusty and to monitor his daily/weekly weight. get a spiral notebook and make daily notes if you work your dogs like that. invest in a pocket scale, digital ones make a big difference because you can watch the onces flux. I bought mine for $50. online. I feed 2 times a day in keep one small meat meal in the am and a full meal after his workout I found this works best for me and I can see a big difference in this way v/s just one time after the workout. It keeps the dog in anabolic state and really helps burn off unwanted fat. I do as you I put them on the scales every day and try to keep him with in 1 or 1 1/2 lb over durring keep the extra pound will come off when they dry another thing I use NO drugs at all and have had no prob keepin up with those who do. I my self train and have competed in mma and bodybuilding I have done anabolics and have done natural and For sure I feel better when I train natural and eat and rest right. I treat my dogs the same way. YIS J

[blackbeard]

By the way, Who gives a fuck what Mayday was on the chain?

[TripleJ]

By the way, Who gives a fuck what Mayday was on the chain?LOL Im with you on that He was a monster in the woods thats all I care about. J

[getemcassius]

the only way to get a dog at the ideal/best weight is to do get good at it over the course of time, i would say try different style prekeeps and keeps find what works for what your tring to do ... it could take you 6 monthes just to figure out how to work a certain dog so imo as long as your dog is never out of shape it wont be really hard to get them in perfect shape

[The Watcher]

LOL.......By the way, Who gives a fuck what Mayday was on the chain?

[TripleJ]

the only way to get a dog at the ideal/best weight is to do get good at it over the course of time, i would say try different style prekeeps and keeps find what works for what your tring to do ... it could take you 6 monthes just to figure out how to work a certain dog so imo as long as your dog is never out of shape it wont be really hard to get them in perfect shapeThat is correct. You have to learn this type of things to be a good dog man/woman. You will learn something every time and should learn from any mistakes you make along the way. It may be a very big mistake if you dont do the best for the dog.We all have our own little tricks we use and some might work for me but not you. Each time may new things may happen. Yis J

[14rock]

TripleJ- I never seen you answer 50's question, and I'm sure its something alot of people are curious about in general so I'd like to give some insight and hopefully someone can take something from it to help their dog out, be it in the woods, or the show ring. A common mistake made by newcommers is thinking you starve a dog down to pitweight, and during the keep are not feeding as much as on the chain, to get that weight off. That DOES NOT work, your dog would be better off the chain! For the show ring, its a little harder to detect how a dog has been brought down in good hands, unless you are familiar with the dog. However, in a hunt, that diffrence in bringing them down is NIGHT AND DAY. If you cut the feed back during a workout, your weakening your dog daily, in 2 months, you've taken alot out of him, and it will show in the form of weak mouths, bad air, lack of concentration, and terrible endurance. Most anyone who conditions a dog for more then looks can tell you which is the best method, and which will probably make the diffrence between losing a dog, or shaping a fine-tuned hog hunting monster. Do not drop the feed, in a keep your burning an insane ammount of energy, this energy must be replaced for the dog to repair itself, thus, a much higher food intake. The only time its a good idea to decrease feed while working is to get the gut fat out, and determine pitweight. You are not starving the dog during this time, do not stop feeding the animal, just do so in reduced portions. 2 or 3 days is all this should take, the rest is done with hardwork and proper nutrition.

Triple J- I am in the same boat brother. I believe many people brings dogs down much to low, and many of them would be better off the chain. I remember speaking to a member who left close to a year ago, and watching a hunt with him, of a dog I liked, but thought was too unpredictable from hunt to hunt to be a "great" dog. In one outing, he showed hardmouth, agile, and STRONG. In the next, he looked weak, the mouth was gone, and his wind was no where to be found after about 10-12 minutes. He was "ok" for 10 minutes or so, but no where near the dog I'd seen previously. Thankfully, he was an extremely smart and game dog, and was able to do what he needed to, in order to win in the end. How much uneccesary damage did he have to take, as a result of being drained after only 10 minutes? I was later told this dog developed a severe health problem during the keep, and was not able to be worked nearly as well as he should of been, but they figured he was a good enough dog it wouldnt matter. Nevertheless, this is a story which plays out time after time- people, losing good dogs because they were not shaped right, or they were too light. I'm not a conditioner, I've worked a few dogs, but for the most part I'm simply paying my dues, and learning the trade from those more experienced then me. For this reason, I'm not willing to bring a dog in as light as others could, and I'm "ok" with leaving them with a little extra. In my eyes, an extra pound is not nearly as damaging as being a pound under the ideal weight, and I'm sure it will be many, many dogs before I am comfortable enough to bring a dog down to that absolutely perfect fine line. If you are unsure, leave a little extra on the table, if nothing else it will help the animal recover from a long hunt more surely.

[TripleJ]

TripleJ- I never seen you answer 50's question, and I'm sure its something alot of people are curious about in general so I'd like to give some insight and hopefully someone can take something from it to help their dog out, be it in the woods, or the show ring. A common mistake made by newcommers is thinking you starve a dog down to pitweight, and during the keep are not feeding as much as on the chain, to get that weight off. That DOES NOT work, your dog would be better off the chain! For the show ring, its a little harder to detect how a dog has been brought down in good hands, unless you are familiar with the dog. However, in a hunt, that diffrence in bringing them down is NIGHT AND DAY. If you cut the feed back during a workout, your weakening your dog daily, in 2 months, you've taken alot out of him, and it will show in the form of weak mouths, bad air, lack of concentration, and terrible endurance. Most anyone who conditions a dog for more then looks can tell you which is the best method, and which will probably make the diffrence between losing a dog, or shaping a fine-tuned hog hunting monster. Do not drop the feed, in a keep your burning an insane ammount of energy, this energy must be replaced for the dog to repair itself, thus, a much higher food intake. The only time its a good idea to decrease feed while working is to get the gut fat out, and determine pitweight. You are not starving the dog during this time, do not stop feeding the animal, just do so in reduced portions. 2 or 3 days is all this should take, the rest is done with hardwork and proper nutrition.

Triple J- I am in the same boat brother. I believe many people brings dogs down much to low, and many of them would be better off the chain. I remember speaking to a member who left close to a year ago, and watching a hunt with him, of a dog I liked, but thought was too unpredictable from hunt to hunt to be a "great" dog. In one outing, he showed hardmouth, agile, and STRONG. In the next, he looked weak, the mouth was gone, and his wind was no where to be found after about 10-12 minutes. He was "ok" for 10 minutes or so, but no where near the dog I'd seen previously. Thankfully, he was an extremely smart and game dog, and was able to do what he needed to, in order to win in the end. How much uneccesary damage did he have to take, as a result of being drained after only 10 minutes? I was later told this dog developed a severe health problem during the keep, and was not able to be worked nearly as well as he should of been, but they figured he was a good enough dog it wouldnt matter. Nevertheless, this is a story which plays out time after time- people, losing good dogs because they were not shaped right, or they were too light. I'm not a conditioner, I've worked a few dogs, but for the most part I'm simply paying my dues, and learning the trade from those more experienced then me. For this reason, I'm not willing to bring a dog in as light as others could, and I'm "ok" with leaving them with a little extra. In my eyes, an extra pound is not nearly as damaging as being a pound under the ideal weight, and I'm sure it will be many, many dogs before I am comfortable enough to bring a dog down to that absolutely perfect fine line. If you are unsure, leave a little extra on the table, if nothing else it will help the animal recover from a long hunt more surely.I am sorry I did not make my self clear. YES I feed more and better dont get me wrong I try my best to feed good all the time I feed a lot of meat all the time. But in keep I feed about 35% more and some times have to add to keep the wt right. But I also dont work my dogs like they have to run across the county it is more for speed ,strength and wind. Yis J