Ofa ????????????

[GAPITS]

I have been involved in a discussion on another board for the first time in a long time and this has sparked my interest. The original thread was about a specific breeder and their dogs. It as always started the debate about health testing. Here is my lastest response -

In looking through the OFA stats and records for APBT, using fair or below, it seems as though the majority of those that are in those categories are not truly APBT but of Staff decent . So that being the case am I the only one that sees why the breed has had more issues as of late? It does not seem that the game dog breeders are the ones that are running the stats up.
Now I am all for health testing if that is what you choose to do, but the continued de-meaning of those breeders that were undeniably crucial to the dogs we have today, I do not find fair in any sense.
The reason I bring this up is in my family there have been at least 5 genertions of people that have raised working Golden Retrievers and never one issue. The issues we have seen in that breed have risen since the breed has been crossed over from a hunting/working dog to a dog bred strictly for show. Could this not be what is happening with the APBT as well?

So with that I am curious to see what others opinions will be. Do you think that it should be something that the game breeders ought to consider or do you go back to the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" as one person on the other board responded. I personally believe just like with the Goldens that it does not seem to be the original breeders of the working type dogs that are causing the issues, but the more recent show type breeders. Now that being said I am not lumping together all show or game breeders as there are good and bad in both types, so let's not make any of this personal. :)

[getemcassius]

i think alot of people are breeding for qualities like big heads and color when you breed like that your gonna get junk dogs

[ABK]

I believe it is the show type breeders who "break" dogs by breeding outside of original type.

Ever since the bluff fad hit, elbow & hip dysplasia as well as some cases of luxating patellas are becoming more & more prevalent. As such, if one were breeding dogs of that type & I would definitely recommend OFA.

But if the dog was a working dog bred from working lines I wouldn't put as much emphasis on it.

But that is JMHO.

[BamaBoy]

I believe in a true working dog, health issues become apparent rather quickly...those dogs are culled naturally because they cannot perform the task at hand. Health tests are great for non working dogs, but are they really necessary for working dogs? Those folks who breed for working ability won't breed a dog who cannot perform the task at a high level of proficiency, therefore instances of health issues are the exception.

[Patch O' Pits]

not to stir up any poop but here is some food for thought... but if the working dogs are NOT tested than how would you know if the hips are good or not first off.

Our breed in general is strong and has a good deal od muscle. Having good muscle tone actually cuts back on the signs and symptoms of HD. This is a fact A dog kept at a good weight and in good shape is less likely to show outright sugns of HD even when they do have it unless it s severe and or as they age and get arthritis. Thus the only way to know if the dog has it or not is if they are tested.

Also it seems many do not allow failing results to be posyted on the OFA site. There are also breeders who have opted to Penn hip instead , nyself included as the test is slightly different and gives more info and also is dine using more views of the hips.

FYI A fair OFA rating is not bad it is not a dog with HD.

An OFA excellent dog on the other hand can still carry the genes for HD.

Health testing is a tool not the end all be all answer. It is a very useful tool though IMO in healping to weed out unworthy breeding stock.

honestly I don't think many ADBA dogs have health testing done at all. I'm proud to say my baby boy Patcheeno is one of the ADBA dogs who does, but he is also the first of the in his line ( at least in the front) that I know of that is.

I've said this before in other posts ... I don't think that dogs should be bred just strickly for working or strictly for show... They should be bred for the total dog

A beautiful dog who has no working drive does not fit the standard to me , but nor does a dog who is a great worker who has a snipey muzzle and poor angulation.

Often dogs with crappy outward structure and or poor movement also have underlying genetic disease such as HD or Elbow D etc

Form follows function and the two go hand in hand

As for those who breed strictly for one specific trait like HUGE heads I just find that sickening and sad for the breed and I feel sorry for those dogs.

[BamaBoy]

not to stir up any poop but here is some food for thought... but if the working dogs are NOT tested than how would you know if the hips are good or not first off.

They couldn't perform the work.

Here's an example: When we are out in the woods, we may cover anywhere from 3-7 miles. My dogs have to be able to cover that ground and then go in and catch a hog that ranges from 200-400+ pounds. Then may have to hold that hog anywhere from 5-30 minutes. If that dog is not structurally sound, there is no way it could complete the task.

Before all the high tech health testing, they way health defects were minimized was through observation and culling. If a dog couldn't cut the mustard, it was culled.

[bahamutt99]

I believe that we will always get dramatically different answers when asking different groups of people. Myself, I'll go with the OFA. I want to know for sure what my eyes and ears can't tell me. It was worth the money I spent for me to know this about my weekend warrior, so I can't understand doing less with a dog that's going to be part of a breeding program:

Loki - OFA Hips good, Patellas normal, Elbows normal, CERF clear

[SisMorphine]

For people who work their dogs it is a form follows function. The form that followed the function was the original jumping off point for the conformation of show dogs. Unfortunately many breeders now breed specifically for form and they are getting rid of the function aspect, which is why you are getting so many dogs with hip dysplasia. For example, you don't find many Lab breeders that still hunt with their Labs. But the ones who do hunt and work their dogs have far less health problems because they are breeding for form AND function.

I can't find the stats right now, but there is a pretty good difference in the occurance of hip dysplasia between the AKC Greyhound and the NGA (racing) Greyhound . . . and the AKC one is far more likely to have it. And the pure show lines also cannot hold a candle to an NGA hound on the track. Why? They went for looks and said "screw you" to all else.

Now, I'm a girly girl, I'm all about looks. BUT I want looks AND function together. If it doesn't have both I don't want it. Unfortunately the conformation ring is ruining many breeds, and quite often when a working dog is in the ring it won't place because it is too thin (ie: not fat/good weight) or too muscular, which I think is sad. Those are the dogs I LOVE to see in the ring . . . the ones who can actually work outside of it. But in the beauty contest that conformation has turned into, they only want the looks.

But is it really a surprise looking at today's society? The waif thin models come to mind. They're the "beauties" that the media hypes. But they don't have hips. Hips are for child bearing, one of the functions of the female body. No muscle. No fat. Nothing of substance that most human beings need to be healthy and function normally.

It's sad, really.

[blackbeard]

I have been involved in a discussion on another board for the first time in a long time and this has sparked my interest. The original thread was about a specific breeder and their dogs. It as always started the debate about health testing. Here is my lastest response -

In looking through the OFA stats and records for APBT, using fair or below, it seems as though the majority of those that are in those categories are not truly APBT but of Staff decent . So that being the case am I the only one that sees why the breed has had more issues as of late? It does not seem that the game dog breeders are the ones that are running the stats up.
Now I am all for health testing if that is what you choose to do, but the continued de-meaning of those breeders that were undeniably crucial to the dogs we have today, I do not find fair in any sense.
The reason I bring this up is in my family there have been at least 5 genertions of people that have raised working Golden Retrievers and never one issue. The issues we have seen in that breed have risen since the breed has been crossed over from a hunting/working dog to a dog bred strictly for show. Could this not be what is happening with the APBT as well?

So with that I am curious to see what others opinions will be. Do you think that it should be something that the game breeders ought to consider or do you go back to the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" as one person on the other board responded. I personally believe just like with the Goldens that it does not seem to be the original breeders of the working type dogs that are causing the issues, but the more recent show type breeders. Now that being said I am not lumping together all show or game breeders as there are good and bad in both types, so let's not make any of this personal. :)
When you breed based on performance you need not worry about certain health issues like OFA certifications for hip dysplasia. Working dogs don't have hip dysplasia because hip dysplasia is hereditary. No working dog would be able to work painfree if it had it. By the way OFA= Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

[ABK]

When you breed based on performance you need not worry about certain health issues like OFA certifications for hip dysplasia. Working dogs don't have hip dysplasia because hip dysplasia is hereditary. No working dog would be able to work painfree if it had it. By the way OFA= Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.
Actually, there have been cases of working dogs who had HD. They just didn't show it b/c they could work through the pain or b/c the case wasn't very severe.

HOWEVER ... there are LESS cases of HD in working stock b/c in most cases form follows function in workling breeds. HD is still there, just fewer cases.

[SisMorphine]

Actually, there have been cases of working dogs who had HD. They just didn't show it b/c they could work through the pain or b/c the case wasn't very severe.

HOWEVER ... there are LESS cases of HD in working stock b/c in most cases form follows function in workling breeds. HD is still there, just fewer cases. But even with dogs who can work with HD, you still can see tiny hints of it if you know what you're looking for: readjusting in a down position, different kinds of hip-cocking. The problem comes when people breed these dogs because they love their drive. Whether they do it intentionally or because they just didn't notice, it's still not a good thing IMHO.

[ABK]

But even with dogs who can work with HD, you still can see tiny hints of it if you know what you're looking for: readjusting in a down position, different kinds of hip-cocking. The problem comes when people breed these dogs because they love their drive. Whether they do it intentionally or because they just didn't notice, it's still not a good thing IMHO.Another thing is the "bunny hop." I've noticed some dogs w/ mild HD will sometimes do a funny bunny hop thing while running. It's not very obvious & most ppl think it's cute until they find out their dog has HD.

I've also noticed some will also not sit right. Instead of sitting on their haunches they sit w/ most of their weight on one leg w/ their hip kind of cocked to the side.

Defects - to include HD - are in working breeds as well as show breeds & you can see it if you know what to look for. In other cases you would not know a working dog had it unless you had a film taken. But to say working breeds don't have it to me is simply not true. They do have it, but to due to their working nature the % of it is much less.

[Patch O' Pits]

They couldn't perform the work.

Here's an example: When we are out in the woods, we may cover anywhere from 3-7 miles. My dogs have to be able to cover that ground and then go in and catch a hog that ranges from 200-400+ pounds. Then may have to hold that hog anywhere from 5-30 minutes. If that dog is not structurally sound, there is no way it could complete the task.

Before all the high tech health testing, they way health defects were minimized was through observation and culling. If a dog couldn't cut the mustard, it was culled.
Ok but that is only true to a point asI already stated dogs with high drive who have mild to moderate HD will work and do a good job at it. The muscle tone and conditioning of the dog play the biggest role in those cases. Working is not proof the dog doesn't have HD.
I've seen it first hand in both weight oull and agility though I don't think the dogs should have been working to the extent they were JMO. The only way as I already stated to know if a dog has it for sure is the testing. But I absolutely see your point. Only the more severe cases usually show symptoms. Just because a dog can work it doesn't mean they aren't displastic. I've also seen beautifully moving dogs who are known to have HD the only reason I knew was becase the owners were friends of mine and they had their dogs tested because they had planned to use them as breeding stock. Those dogs were spay/neutered but still are living happy healthy lives free of symptoms at this point.

[realonebulldog]

I have been involved in a discussion on another board for the first time in a long time and this has sparked my interest. The original thread was about a specific breeder and their dogs. It as always started the debate about health testing. Here is my lastest response -

In looking through the OFA stats and records for APBT, using fair or below, it seems as though the majority of those that are in those categories are not truly APBT but of Staff decent . So that being the case am I the only one that sees why the breed has had more issues as of late? It does not seem that the game dog breeders are the ones that are running the stats up.
Now I am all for health testing if that is what you choose to do, but the continued de-meaning of those breeders that were undeniably crucial to the dogs we have today, I do not find fair in any sense.
The reason I bring this up is in my family there have been at least 5 genertions of people that have raised working Golden Retrievers and never one issue. The issues we have seen in that breed have risen since the breed has been crossed over from a hunting/working dog to a dog bred strictly for show. Could this not be what is happening with the APBT as well?

So with that I am curious to see what others opinions will be. Do you think that it should be something that the game breeders ought to consider or do you go back to the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" as one person on the other board responded. I personally believe just like with the Goldens that it does not seem to be the original breeders of the working type dogs that are causing the issues, but the more recent show type breeders. Now that being said I am not lumping together all show or game breeders as there are good and bad in both types, so let's not make any of this personal. :) If you breed for show = Issues . Every line(not only dogs) needs a serious selection. Showbreeding means no selection because NOTHING is less important then the look.

[Patch O' Pits]

Another thing is the "bunny hop." I've noticed some dogs w/ mild HD will sometimes do a funny bunny hop thing while running. It's not very obvious & most ppl think it's cute until they find out their dog has HD.

I've also noticed some will also not sit right. Instead of sitting on their haunches they sit w/ most of their weight on one leg w/ their hip kind of cocked to the side.
LOL Ok here goes I tend to ask a zillion questions at the vet especially when paying a bundle for visits. I usually go with a list of things I've written down & take notes when speaking to them. They must see me coming and want to run

I was told by an orthopedic vet specialist when I had Penn hip done that those are actually NOT always signs of HD . Other structural issues such as straight stiffs, lack of angulation, loose or cow hocks, loose ligaments among I believe a couple of other things I can't think of at the moment could also cause the things you mentioned as well

I've heard people say the frog dog thing is a sign of good hips while others say it is a sign of bad ones . I had also aske about that and was told the frog dog thing shows flexibility in the joint , but is not necessarily an indicator for or against HD

He flat out told me the only way to know for sure was to x-ray though in severe cases they can sometimes actually feel the issue in the joint

[pennsooner]

Ok, interesting topic. I'd like to see a couple of things among game-dog breeders. First off, health testing, OFA on hips and elbows and heart. Some lines DO tend to have some problems if bred tight. And second, perhaps more thought prior to making breeding's. It seems like some folks are sort of flippant about making breeding's because after all, you can cull later.


However, I've this argument on the more rescue oriented boards and I think it is the height of folly for a person who has never bred a dog, and who is new (more or less) to the breed to pretend that they know more about breeding a dog than, say John Colby or Earl Tudor. In fact its downright retarded. I know that in the last couple of years I've started going to shows and visiting yards. And in that time, just from talking to a few breeders that REALLY know their stuff, then level of how much I understood the thought behind breeding's increased about a million times over. I think a lot of rescue people (and I've had this discussion with them) have no clue just how complex breeding game dogs is.


I'll just say, anyone that can establish a good line, well, that takes some real doing.

[ABK]

There is no perfect line, game or show.

BTW, nice sig Penn! :)

[pennsooner]

There is no perfect line, game or show.

BTW, nice sig Penn! :)



Thanks for that, I like that sig because I've found myself on the wrong side of an issue before due to thinking I knew before I really had all the info. So its a good reminder to keep an open mind.

[Patch O' Pits]

There is no perfect line, game or show.
I agree, but some are definately better overall including health and structure

It is the breeders job to do what is best for the breed and not just themselves or what they prefer. Afterall, that is why there is a standard for both structure and temperament whch also includes the dog being able to work

[blackbeard]

Actually, there have been cases of working dogs who had HD. They just didn't show it b/c they could work through the pain or b/c the case wasn't very severe.

HOWEVER ... there are LESS cases of HD in working stock b/c in most cases form follows function in workling breeds. HD is still there, just fewer cases.
Not in gamedogs there aren't, which was really the kind of dog I was refering to when I said working dog. No other breed should even matter on this web-site.

[pennsooner]

Not in gamedogs there aren't, which was really the kind of dog I was refering to when I said working dog. No other breed should even matter on this web-site.

Really? How can you know that? The fact is, gamedogs are MORE likely than any other breed to be able to work through mild HD. I've read accounts of dogs being matched while full of worms. If some people are that careless I'd bet that there have been some matched with other problems. Its been pointed out that dogs CAN work with HD. So the "they couldn't do the work if they had HD" line is bogus. And its more bogus for a breed who's main bussiness is never quitting no matter the discomfort.

[realonebulldog]

Really? How can you know that? The fact is, gamedogs are MORE likely than any other breed to be able to work through mild HD. I've read accounts of dogs being matched while full of worms. If some people are that careless I'd bet that there have been some matched with other problems. Its been pointed out that dogs CAN work with HD. So the "they couldn't do the work if they had HD" line is bogus. And its more bogus for a breed who's main bussiness is never quitting no matter the discomfort. Many GSD are put to sleep because of heavy HD. The same counts for Leonbergers, Labradors, Boxers , Dobermans and many many other showdogs. You heard from many gamedogs that have been put to sleep because of heavy HD? I never heard from things like that.....and I never heard it for example from Sivas Kangal lines (working type). The point is if you breed a line with the help of a SERIOUS Genetic Task (for example the fight or herdingwork) you breed for high quality muscles, tendons, bones, cartilage and so on. From generation to generation you get healthy, vital and strong animals....but if you bred the same line for many generations without the help of his Genetic Task only for show purposes you will lose slowly but constant more and more from all this positive things.

[ABK]

You heard from many gamedogs that have been put to sleep because of heavy HD? I never heard from things like that......I think perhaps you haven't heard of it b/c

#1: 99.9% of gamedog kennels do not even test hips & therefore have no earthly idea how good or bad the hips on their dogs are.

&

#2: Even if a gamedog kennel did test hips they'd probably cover up any bad results.

Consider this story from a vet clinic:

STORIES FROM OUR CLINIC

Several years ago, one of our clients had a champion of champions German Shepherd, named Baron, with a personality every dog owner dreams of. He was extremely intelligent, easy to train, calm in all situations, never aggressive toward other animals or people, and had a mellow, loving personality. His family had several horses and frequently went camping. He was just as comfortable running with the horses as he was sleeping in a tent or riding in a canoe. In short, he was an active and integral part of an active family.


Baron was brought into our clinic just days after his second birthday for radiographs (x-rays). German Shepherds not uncommonly have hip dysplasia which is a degenerative arthritic condition affecting the hip joints. The condition is usually painful, affecting the dog more and more as he ages. The condition is genetic (passed from one generation to the next) so our goal is to identify affected animals and prevent them from breeding. This can be accomplished by radiographing animals after they are two years of age but before they breed and submitting the radiographs for evaluation by the Orthopedic Foundation of Animals (OFA) which certifies the overall quality of the hip joints. Only those animals who pass OFA certification should be allowed to breed.

We filmed Baron's hips in anticipation of sending them on to be evaluated. But when we viewed the radiographs ourselves, we could hardly believe our eyes! Baron, although very active and never showing any problem with his hips, had the worst case of hip dysplasia ever filmed in our hospital!

Both of his hip joints had little resemblance to those of a normal dog. The femoral heads, the 'balls' of the ball and socket joint, were rough, arthritic stumps. The socket was a flat, barely concave surface. Numerous bone spurs filled and surrounded the bones in the joint.

Looking at the film, we were sure we must have made some mistake and radiographed the wrong dog, possibly those of a 10 to 15 year old animal that had suffered several broken bones when hit by a car or some other type of trauma. But a second set of films provided the same picture. We were astounded. There was little we could do that day. We knew that the owners would be as shocked as we were.

When we told Baron's owners the diagnosis, they quietly took him home and returned a few days later to discuss the case. Many owners when confronted with a case like Baron's, request that the animal be put to sleep because of the potential for expensive lifelong treatments. Baron's owners knew that since he had hip dysplasia and would probably transmit it to his offspring, he could never be bred.

They came simply to hear our recommendations as to his future. As decades-long breeders, they understood the case fairly well but they still had several questions. They opted to neuter him, take a wait and see attitude, and let Baron's condition determine treatment options.

It has been over 12 years since Baron came in for those x-rays. Over the years he came into our clinic for vaccines, heartworm checks, and minor mishaps on a regular basis. As far as the hip dysplasia went, Baron was one of those rare individuals that had somehow learned to accommodate for his deformed hips. He lived a very active life without surgery or medical therapy of any kind. He never gave up camping, running with horses or any other activity he or his family wanted to pursue. Over the course of his life he never showed any signs of the disease. He was a very, very rare example of a dog with hip dysplasia. In our experience, just one or two percent of the affected animals live this quality of a life.

We lost Baron to cancer about a year ago. He lived a good life for almost 13 years with a disease that would have caused many owners to give up on him. His owners chose not to and he proved them right.

If a German Shepherd can do this - a breed not known for it's gameness or tolorance of pain, than a pit bull could do it easily!

JMHO ...

[miakoda]

#2: Even if a gamedog kennel did test hips they'd probably cover up any bad results.

I'm confused by this statement. Are you implying that gamedog kennel owners are dishonest liars that will do anything for a buck & to keep their reputation?

[kane85]

I'm confused by this statement. Are you implying that gamedog kennel owners are dishonest liars that will do anything for a buck & to keep their reputation?not everybody keeps there word and even in the world of the game dog there are some bad apples out there not every body is perfect you get stupid people that get there hands on dogs and they dont know what there doing or might just breed for one trait there are good dog men and there are bad ones.there are actually some dog men that talerate men bitters in there yards dose that tell you something.

[getemcassius]

where did you come up with 99 % of game dog breeders dont test ? and if they did they would cover it ? neither are facts...

[Diesel]

The reason most people dont test is because they are scared of what they might find out. without proof they can always claim ignorance " I didnt know my dog was dysplatic, or b positive or whatever" once you test you find out that the dogs you are breeding could be crap.
People think that if a dog looks good its breeding quality or if a dog performs well its breeding quality. these dogs will work thourgh untold amounts of pain so you best believe that dog get bred that have issues both known and unknown to the one doing the breeding. but the mentality is if the dog can work through the pain then its that much more breeding quality.

and I agree with this statement emphatically-
there are good dog men and there are bad onesjust because they are breedign a good line of dogs doesnt make them good people. there has been paperhanging since there has been dog breeding. please belive that there are dogmen that are just as dirty as the worst BYBs.

[ABK]

Mia: I'm not implying it. I'm saying it. Not ALL of them will do it - there are honest game dog breeders out there who would do the right thing - but there are also dishonest ones as well who would think nothing of covering up a poor rating.

getem: I am getting my info from the same place you got yours - as an educated guess. How many game dog sites feature OFA results? I have yet to see one. Have you?

[GAPITS]

I would like to say that I haven't tested or x-ray'd my dogs, and the reason is neither the fact that I am worried about results or about what it costs. I just simply don't feel that it is necessary since the 99.9% of my pups stay here or go to other kennels that we work hand in hand with. I am not saying the line I have chosen is perfect and above carrying one of these diseases, I am just saying that knowing where my dogs come from and the culling methods used it is not something I tend to worry about. I would be glad to put any of my game dogs up for testing if someone wanted a pup (saying that I was willing to part with one to that particular person) and wanted the parents tested.

I am not trying to down anyone for their beliefs, but it is simply not something that interests me.

[~apbtfriend~]

I think this is a great topic. I was too wondering why game-bred breeders don’t health test. I have 2 questions.

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With how game-bred dogs are bred wouldn’t there be a concern for health issues? I mean game-bred dogs are some of the tightest line bred dogs I have ever encountered. Even some are inbred. But this doesn’t concern too many breeders…..
When it comes to breeding animals for certain traits aren’t all are at risk of some health issues?
<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

I don’t know……I don’t think you can possibly say all working apbt are free from genetic disorders. There are probably some issues there but no body test for it so its not a big concern……... I know that can’t possibly be the right answer.

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