Th3 Futur3 Of Apbt?

[Esse818]

I was thinking about how genetics over time change a dog, as much as I think Pit Bulls are becoming more gentle, more friendly, like in a couple of more decades and the APBT might become dog friendly. just my thoughts post ur thoughts good or bad.

p.s. don't mind my spelling. and my thoughts come from my head with no evidens and such.

[LuvinBullies]

I was thinking about how genetics over time change a dog, as much as I think Pit Bulls are becoming more gentle, more friendly, like in a couple of more decades and the APBT might become dog friendly. just my thoughts post ur thoughts good or bad.

p.s. don't mind my spelling. and my thoughts come from my head with no evidens and such.I love to speculate! :)

I see where you are coming from...you are noting a trend toward people breeding the APBT as a companion animal, not just a working animal. You've also noticed how public ignorance about the APBT has led to a public demand for a less traditional, more "friendly" APBT which requires less responsibility and less dutiful handling by its owner.
Everything tends evolve with and adapt to the society it lives in, regardless of how ridiculous it is. While some APBT bloodlines will remain sound and traditionally bulldog/gamedog (by hook or crook as dedicated APBT enthusiasts/breed preservationists fight to keep the APBT true through ownership and breeding), there may also be some specimens which naturally evolve (devolve?!) with a society which doesn't need or desire a highly driven working dog. These substandard dogs would possibly set the wheels in motion for long term genetic manipulation producing less energetic APBT housepets with more easygoing temperaments around other animals. Of course, this would not happen without a trail of headlines and accidents on the part of these owners who choose not to acknowledge what their dog's roots are.
If the "Pit Bull" fad HOPEFULLY moves on and the APBT survives, as the trendy-machismo-punk-hillbillys move their focus onto exploiting something else to make up for their little peckers, their unstable hybrid "pit" mixes should eventually die out by way of speuter and/or shelter euthanasia culling. Even if APBT's fall out of the current unwanted media spotlight, there will still be demand from "APBT fanciers" for a housepet, a residual effect from all those who rescued or just fell in love with a breed persecuted by so many. As people continue to own, breed and desire the APBT for a housepet, the genes eventually will comply, and some APBTs will be genetically predisposed toward a less animal aggressive nature in the home.
The true APBT will stay traditional and strong as long as knowledgeable enthusiasts continue to own and breed him- but I suspect there will also be an APBT type dog which gradually evolves (or devolves, really) with the new wave america cookie cutter suburbia lifestyle into what the public wants the APBT to be.

[Iverson's Pits]

The Apbt Wont Lose Its D.a. - The Amstaff, However, Will. When Breeding For Looks And Looks Alone, The D.a. Slowly By Surely Dilutes Itself Until Its All But Gone. I Believe It Can Be Resparked In A Matter Of Two Properly Considered Breedings....but Why Would You Want To Regain A Trait From One Line, When It Already Exists In Another? Know What I Mean?

[Sballpeaches080]

If the breeding of the game dogs continues, then i think that DA* will never be lost along with drive and etc. The true APBT will never be lost.

*not all game dogs are DA, but its in the breeding not to care if it is or isnt

[pancho]

Man made the apbt what he is today and man will make the dog whatever he will be in the future. The future of the apbt will evolve into something different, what that will be will be decided by the majority of people breeding them.

Arguing about the color, size, condition, show dog, working dog, etc is not helping. Trying to educate others about the apbt and teaching the young people who are interested in the dog may save the breed.
Each person will have a chance to help or harm the breed, you will get to choose which it will be.

[pennsooner]

Nope. After more than 70 years away from the pit, most AmStaffs are still pretty dog aggressive for the most part. Plus, I think we are seeing the very start of the APBT loosing some of its fad status as more at risk owners move on to other breeds (CO's for example).

[14rock]

APBT's wont change, "pitbulls" will, and in some respects, already have.

[pancho]

APBT's wont change, "pitbulls" will, and in some respects, already have.
APBT is a fairly new name for the same dog. Pitbull, bulldog, gamedog, pit bull terrier, Irish dog. All the same dog. What has changed many times and will probably change again is the name.
The apbt is mostly being bred nowdays for looks only, no matter if it is ukc, adba, or any of the other initials that have popped up in the last few years. There may be game dogs in the 4th generation. That has little to do with what has been produced 4 generations later. You cannot go by looks alone.
Take a look at many of the old foundation dogs.
The Colby dogs in the early 1900's. Most of the Carver dogs. Tudor dogs.
These dogs were not the dogs we see today.
Look at Bullyson, match weight 53 lbs.
Gr. Ch. Buck chain wt. 58-60 lbs.
Gr. Ch. Hank 65lbs chain weight.
Plumber's Alligator 58-60 match weight.
Tudor's Black Jack,
These were not small dogs.
Go back and check the weight on Crib and Pilot, both under 30lbs.
The trend nowdays is either to go to the large dogs and argue all others are too small.
Or go to the small dogs and argue that all big dogs are mixed.
Neither one is correct.
What ever you want to call the dog it has changed much in its size and disposition. It will continue to change.

[Titch_Pitbull]

APBT is a fairly new name for the same dog. Pitbull, bulldog, gamedog, pit bull terrier, Irish dog. All the same dog. What has changed many times and will probably change again is the name.
The apbt is mostly being bred nowdays for looks only, no matter if it is ukc, adba, or any of the other initials that have popped up in the last few years. There may be game dogs in the 4th generation. That has little to do with what has been produced 4 generations later. You cannot go by looks alone.
Take a look at many of the old foundation dogs.
The Colby dogs in the early 1900's. Most of the Carver dogs. Tudor dogs.
These dogs were not the dogs we see today.
Look at Bullyson, match weight 53 lbs.
Gr. Ch. Buck chain wt. 58-60 lbs.
Gr. Ch. Hank 65lbs chain weight.
Plumber's Alligator 58-60 match weight.
Tudor's Black Jack,
These were not small dogs.
Go back and check the weight on Crib and Pilot, both under 30lbs.
The trend nowdays is either to go to the large dogs and argue all others are too small.
Or go to the small dogs and argue that all big dogs are mixed.
Neither one is correct.
What ever you want to call the dog it has changed much in its size and disposition. It will continue to change.
Yeah I agree with breeder variation and Diffrent Breeder aims the breed will continue to change since people breed for diffrent things (Not all aquire for the trait of gameness) So it has to change according with breeder aims

[Esse818]

there we go thats what i wanted to hear http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif educated ppl giving opinions

[newbieturtlepits]

heres another
altho it is a disservice to this breed for it to be
bred and changed to everystreetcornerpunks dog
what options we got
tell ya what put some other dog in the media
in mtv videos movies and whatnot you will see the
numbers drop like hard rain
except for the people who got them really cheap and
tie them in the yard everynow and then soemthing jumps
the fence and bingo .. free to good homes

i was driving and the school kids had come out and walking
their dogs.. low and behold a pit of every color least 4 per kid
in the hands of 11 and 12 yr old boys

enuff dogs to fill any kennel
well now you know what will become of them
i shook my head and wondered why the breeder
dont offer info on altering a pet before it comes
to them having one litter after another every year

and another thing is its very illegal here to breed any
litter with out a permission application from the city
approved... the fines are huge.. and the evidence is
right there in the paper no one is paying up for the
litters that are sold....i had seen a woman get a 1,ooo
fine for the litter and 250. per pup she sold..it was real
heavy on her..oh plus some more for license and other
stuff as one too many dogs for city code..

and yet it goes on and on....
anybody in the mood for making some movies and music
videos and get the dogs you love so much out of the
lime light....just a thought

[LuvinBullies]

APBT's wont change, "pitbulls" will, and in some respects, already have.Well Rock- you managed to sum up my carefully worded and thought out, if a tad lengthy post to one sentence which captures my intended point perfectly. You stole my thunder :p. The true blue APBT will exhibit the standard set by his heritage until the last true blue APBT enthusiast takes his last breath, but as society demands change in the "pitbull", he may adapt accordingly.

[hoovereport77]

this is a very interesting topic. if we're looking 10 years down the road i think the showtype apbt will definitely be bigger, wider and lower and it will take the same path as what the english bulldog took. it may end up being a totally seperate breed. in fact as early as now, they say some of them are now called, american bullies. the gamebred apbts by that time will remain as the only apbt, no more showtype pits. but i also think the apbt will thrive in countries outside the u.s. places where bsl is not present. i also think the quality of the apbts in other countries will surpass the quality of apbts in the u.s. by that time because it'll be so hard to own an apbt in the u.s. these are just my thoughts

[pancho]

There are apbt in many countries now.
I shipped 20 to Tiawan back in the middle 80's. I don't know how they are breeding them but I do know the papers are probably not on the correct dog. The dogs had to go through quarantine and they wanted the registration papers sent immediately. They didn't know what papers matched what dog. The only thing they had to go by was the color on the papers to match to a dog of the same color. My friend sent 30 dogs also and the papers to his was in the same box.

[MR BIGGS]

I for one love game dogs but also prefer pit companions because of the personality, which both types of dogs possess. In my honest opinion all the bullys have some type of game in'em but different people nowadays use gameness in many aspects, it all depends on the person and competition.

P.S. An APBT is all the same as a bully, a petbull, a game dog or a cur. It just depends on how u use them.

P.S.S If u put two curs together then one has to have more game than the other. Pardon my contradiction but it makes sense to me. So the APBT will always be a game dog and a companion in some way, which will leave it as a true APBT

[LuvinBullies]

P.S.S If u put two curs together then one has to have more game than the other. Pardon my contradiction but it makes sense to me. So the APBT will always be a game dog and a companion in some way, which will leave it as a true APBTVery interesting statement. A loyal, charming and interesting statement across the board. I cannot agree or disagree, only appreciate.

[bahamutt99]

I don't think the breed will head down any one path to the exclusion of all else. Honestly, I don't see too much changing, except maybe the bully people making the split from our breed. I'd imagine there will still be the smaller, rangier dogs; the middle-sized, balanced dogs; and the oversized "mule" dogs. What I sincerely hope is that the people who are doing right by these dogs will continue to influence others, and we'll see an increase in the number of good dogs and good people.

And while some may disagree with this, I really hope the number of people interested in using the breed for legal sports and useful tasks continues to climb. I agree with keeping the breed as true as you can, but I feel like the future is just as important as the past. I need to believe that these lil' old fighting dogs can really make a positive contribution and that they are needed in modern day society. I think some people are afraid to look at other things we can do with these dogs and its a shame.

[pancho]

People who have been around the breed for many years can already see a difference in the dog. The change really began about 1980. Before that time the change was very slow. It picked up speed in 80. By 90 there was such a change in the dogs I quit breeding.

[MR BIGGS]

I really believe that my theory of one dog being more game if both are curs is true in every sense.
Thanks!
Very interesting statement. A loyal, charming and interesting statement across the board. I cannot agree or disagree, only appreciate.

[pancho]

I really believe that my theory of one dog being more game if both are curs is true in every sense.
Thanks!One dog will always be more game than another dog. That does not make either of the dogs game. Put two cocker spaniels together and one will be more game than the other. That does not make either one of them game dogs.
For example take two boxers and put them on a race track. One will out run the other. This does not make the one dog a greyhound or a fast dog. He is just a little faster than the other dog.

[MR BIGGS]

You basically repeated what I just said although you tried to make it an arguable debate when it's not. One dog will have more game than the other which would make it game at some point and if two dogs race, the one that wins will be the faster dog. No dog will ever be the gamest or the fastest or the strongest but nice try on wanting to try and make a point.:rolleyes:

BTW; I love the contradiction on your part like the statement in bold

One dog will always be more game than another dog. That does not make either of the dogs game. Put two cocker spaniels together and one will be more game than the other. That does not make either one of them game dogs.
For example take two boxers and put them on a race track. One will out run the other. This does not make the one dog a greyhound or a fast dog. He is just a little faster than the other dog.

[debodebo]

Curs are not game. That is why they are called curs. Just because a dog makes another dog quite does not mean he is game. Gameness is very rare and not that easily obtained. If you put two curs together you will have a winner, but not a game winner. The dog does not need to be game to win. Their are plenty of rough curs who make champion. Their is nothing like a true game dog and please don't compare them to curs.

[MR BIGGS]

So you are saying that if for some reason someone wanted to test a bunch of curs then not even the one with the most wins would be declared game. If the dog displays an obvious attitude to not quit then in my book it would be game. It's very logical to have curs be titled game, it depends on the opponent and the breeder/owner himself. I know not many doggers test curs after they've proven to be such so I'm just speaking in "what if" terms. If the dogs have been declared curs and you test each one and a constant winner or two produces out of the group then you have transitioned a cur into a game dog that is aware of what he/she is supposed to accomplish.


Curs are not game. That is why they are called curs. Just because a dog makes another dog quite does not mean he is game. Gameness is very rare and not that easily obtained. If you put two curs together you will have a winner, but not a game winner. The dog does not need to be game to win. Their are plenty of rough curs who make champion. Their is nothing like a true game dog and please don't compare them to curs.

[14rock]

MrBiggs, say what? I can't decipher what in the hell you are saying. It sounds to me like your trying to justify breeding two curs since "one is gamer then the other, it doesnt really matter!". If you are content to breed substandard mutts, just because striving for perfection is too much work, find a diffrent breed. The goal of every breeder, dog, and owner should be perfection, to whatever the set standard is.

What do you mean no dog will ever be the gamest, or the fastest, or the strongest? Of course one dog will be "top dog" in its arena.

To pancho- I use the term "APBT" to define a bulldog, a gamedog, pit bulldog, whatever name we wish to use for these dogs. I do not use the term APBT to refer to curs, amstaffs or mutts. They are "pitbulls" in the generic sense of the word, but not APBT's, as they dont fit the standard.

Mr. Biggs, everything is improved by striving to be the best, and nothing less. Breeding for anything less then perfection, will ensure, you will never reach it, or come close.

Edit-to respond to new post. --- No, a bunch of curs matched into eachother would prove absolutely nothing! The ammount of wins it has over the other dogs does not matter in the least,and it certainly doesnt prove gameness! It may prove it can bite harder then the rest, defend itself better then the rest, dance better then the rest-but it doesnt prove gameness! What are you talking about, you normally are a pretty logical guy, have you fallen off your rocker and taken off on the backyard breeder bandwagon?

[pancho]

So you are saying that if for some reason someone wanted to test a bunch of curs then not even the one with the most wins would be declared game. If the dog displays an obvious attitude to not quit then in my book it would be game. It's very logical to have curs be titled game, it depends on the opponent and the breeder/owner himself. I know not many doggers test curs after they've proven to be such so I'm just speaking in "what if" terms. If the dogs have been declared curs and you test each one and a constant winner or two produces out of the group then you have transitioned a cur into a game dog that is aware of what he/she is supposed to accomplish.Now you are beginning to understand. Your first sentence is correct. One cur dog may defeat the other, that does not mean he is game. What happens when he meets a dog that he cannot defeat. That is the test of gameness. A cur dog may do good for a short time until he begins to loose. To stay and not give up would be game, no matter what punishment he has to take, including death.
You can have a dog that destroys every dog that he is matched against. He may not be game. It has happened many times. A dog will blow away everything he is matched into. When he comes across a dog of equal skill, strength, and bite he will quit. He was a winner, just not game.

[MR BIGGS]

First of all let's not assume I'm a breeder of any sort and let's not assume that I'm speaking facts. I'm just stating what "could" happen. If a breeder wanted to make a dog that is a cur breeding worthy because he likes something in particular about the dog then let's just say he did place the dog against other dogs until the dog won a few and proved that he in fact does have what it takes.

I know that this is not a normal situation that's why I said I'm speaking in terms of "what if" and as far as the "find another breed comment from 14Rock, I think people only say that to feel like owning a bully is just for them. I could be wrong but let's not make those kinda statements again because to some that read that they may believe this breed is truly dangerous.

[debodebo]

I'm just stating what "could" happen. If a breeder wanted to make a dog that is a cur breeding worthy because he likes something in particular about the dog then let's just say he did place the dog against other dogs until the dog won a few and proved that he in fact does have what it takes. What the hell are you talking about. A breeder cannot make a cur worthy of being bred. It is not possible. Who cares if you place him against other dogs and he wins. A cur is always going to be a cur no matter how many dogs he beats. Why don't you understand this. You cannot make a cur into a gamedog.

[Esse818]

what i was thinking, was that a "pet bull" can still be game. but game dogs down the line will be less dog agressive, and more agressive on other animals, no? for an example cats, squrals, hogs, etc,., thing that can kill now.


if any one has any artical of genitics, and how it can change post it up, and it has about dogs or APBT, that would be much better.

[LuvinBullies]

Woah. I thought I understood where the personal philosophies were on this, but now...:confused:

At any rate I appreciate strongly Rocks and Baker's no nonsense and high expectations when speaking of a gamedog: It's either a gamedog in every sense or it is not. You do not cheapen those truly game dogs by allowing cur dogs the same title.

I also thought I understood Mr. Biggs first personal philosophy- he was allowing the quality of gameness to be metered out in degrees amongst all APBTs as his personal loyalty and appreciation of the breed in its entirety. "Yeah its a pet/cur, but its still APBT, and that's got at least some game." Was how I took his stance on it.

*Note* I don't support breeding of substandard APBT's and calling them game or dirtying the breed with substandard breeding period.

Hell, maybe I am wrong all the way around, but I think you guys are interpreting "game" a little differently. I appreciate the loyalty for the breed shown from both sides.

[Esse818]

What the hell are you talking about. A breeder cannot make a cur worthy of being bred. It is not possible. Who cares if you place him against other dogs and he wins. A cur is always going to be a cur no matter how many dogs he beats. Why don't you understand this. You cannot make a cur into a gamedog. i believe curs do have game.....they just don't know they have it. All curs have an ounce of game breed, and if breed (inbreed) it may come out. at least i think.

u took my words in the a "winner, not game."

[debodebo]

So you are saying that if for some reason someone wanted to test a bunch of curs then not even the one with the most wins would be declared game.That is exactly what I am saying. Wins have nothing to do with being game.

[LuvinBullies]

I use the term "APBT" to define a bulldog, a gamedog, pit bulldog, whatever name we wish to use for these dogs. I do not use the term APBT to refer to curs, amstaffs or mutts. They are "pitbulls" in the generic sense of the word, but not APBT's, as they dont fit the standard.
A Ha. This is where the confusion lies. Where some people acknowledge curs to still have a certain amount of APBT royalty in their veins, others do not. Either way- breeding should be reserved for the best of the best, IMO.

[mrsmickey351]

Cur = quit(no GAME)!!! Simple enough.

[MR BIGGS]

So what are you saying if it's not wins.
I think it's how they win that you are trying to get at and that's what I could agree on
That is exactly what I am saying. Wins have nothing to do with being game.

[MR BIGGS]

That's obvious, but try looking at things in a different perspsective. The scenario I'm giving is one that could take place unless it's already happened.

Back to the original topic:
Either way I'm saying that true APBT's will not change into what modern day society is trying to make it.
Cur = quit(no GAME)!!! Simple enough.

[debodebo]

Back to the original topic:
Either way I'm saying that true APBT's will not change into what modern day society is trying to make it.
The APBT will not change as long as we don't breed curs. A cur is a cur no matter how many other dogs it can beat. A cur should not be breed. He might have a hard mouth or talent, but sooner or later it will meet a dog who is better and quit. Why would you want to pass this trait to its offspring. A game dog will not quit. Like 14rock said, APBT will not change, but "pitbulls" will. Pitbulls represent alot of different dogs. Bullies, staffies, etc. Any dog with a certain look is labled as a "pitbull." The APBT also has a certain look, but it also has something that no other dog has. A heart bigger than this world. I think you have gameness mixed up with talent.

[MR BIGGS]

Sooner or later if the circumstance surfaces any dog will meet it's match but sometimes it doesn't reach that point so IMO you have no point and you obviously aren't getting mine. I too don't think an APBT will ever change from its original form although some idiots give it a shot, but I appreciate you stating your opinion and reading mine.
The APBT will not change as long as we don't breed curs. A cur is a cur no matter how many other dogs it can beat. A cur should not be breed. He might have a hard mouth or talent, but sooner or later it will meet a dog who is better and quit. Why would you want to pass this trait to its offspring. A game dog will not quit. Like 14rock said, APBT will not change, but "pitbulls" will. Pitbulls represent alot of different dogs. Bullies, staffies, etc. Any dog with a certain look is labled as a "pitbull." The APBT also has a certain look, but it also has something that no other dog has. A heart bigger than this world. I think you have gameness mixed up with talent.

[pancho]

What ever you want to call the breed, I know of only one breed of dogs called pit bulls, the majority are not game now and most of the dogs in history were not game. Dog aggressive is many times called gameness. It is not the same. Even in the days when matching dogs was legal the majority of pit bulls were not game. Check the records, they curred out also. Some tried to make excuses but it is still the same.
There are very few people in the U.S. that game test their dogs. There are a lot of breeders that have dog aggressive dogs. If you do not game test your dog there is no way possible to say you have a game dog. You may think and hope they are game but you do not know for sure. You cannot tell by looking. Contrary to what many people think breeding two game tested dogs together does not guarantee their pups will be game. A game tested dog several generations sure does not make a dog game. Not even a high percentage will be game dogs. Many may be da, have great strenght, good wrestling ability, and have a strong bite. That does not make them game.
Look back in history, even when dog fighting was legal, there were many dogs that curred out. Some had won other matches. Check the number of times some game dogs were bred. If all their pups were game there would be game dogs everywhere. Many of the old dog men would not breed to certain dogs even though they may have been champions as they did not consider them game.
The pit bull has already changed. The pit bull does not have a certain look. They come in all shapes, sizes, and color. If there was a person who could tell a game dog by looking he would be rich, and do a lot better than anyone in the history of the breed, including all of the old time dog men.
All you have to do is ask some of the old men who were alive and matching dogs back many years ago. They have much the same opinion of modern day pit bulls that many have for the blue dogs.
The pit bull was a great dog and still is but all are not game and less are every year.

[debodebo]

What ever you want to call the breed, I know of only one breed of dogs called pit bulls, the majority are not game now and most of the dogs in history were not game. Dog aggressive is many times called gameness. It is not the same. Even in the days when matching dogs was legal the majority of pit bulls were not game. Check the records, they curred out also. Some tried to make excuses but it is still the same.
There are very few people in the U.S. that game test their dogs. There are a lot of breeders that have dog aggressive dogs. If you do not game test your dog there is no way possible to say you have a game dog. You may think and hope they are game but you do not know for sure. You cannot tell by looking. Contrary to what many people think breeding two game tested dogs together does not guarantee their pups will be game. A game tested dog several generations sure does not make a dog game. Not even a high percentage will be game dogs. Many may be da, have great strenght, good wrestling ability, and have a strong bite. That does not make them game.
Look back in history, even when dog fighting was legal, there were many dogs that curred out. Some had won other matches. Check the number of times some game dogs were bred. If all their pups were game there would be game dogs everywhere. Many of the old dog men would not breed to certain dogs even though they may have been champions as they did not consider them game.
The pit bull has already changed. The pit bull does not have a certain look. They come in all shapes, sizes, and color. If there was a person who could tell a game dog by looking he would be rich, and do a lot better than anyone in the history of the breed, including all of the old time dog men.
All you have to do is ask some of the old men who were alive and matching dogs back many years ago. They have much the same opinion of modern day pit bulls that many have for the blue dogs.
The pit bull was a great dog and still is but all are not game and less are every year.We just have different opinions. I don't consider bluffs or staffies to be APBT. I consider them to be something different. Whether they are called mutts or pitbulls. APBT do have different sizes and shapes, but meet a standard. I never said you can look at a dog and tell it is game. Show me where I said that. I said rough curs should not be compared to game dogs. I also said curs should not be bred. Their are still plenty of good dogs around. Like I said before gameness is rare and hard to obtain. I don't know what posts of mine you are reading.

[pancho]

We just have different opinions. I don't consider bluffs or staffies to be APBT. I consider them to be something different. Whether they are called mutts or pitbulls. APBT do have different sizes and shapes, but meet a standard. I never said you can look at a dog and tell it is game. Show me where I said that. I said rough curs should not be compared to game dogs. I also said curs should not be bred. Their are still plenty of good dogs around. Like I said before gameness is rare and hard to obtain. I don't know what posts of mine you are reading.I agree completely with almost everything you have been saying. I don't consider the staffs, bull terriers, mastiff crosses, or cross breds to be pit bulls. The part I don't agree with is I don't think the name pit bull represents any other dog but the pit bull. I realize many people cannot tell a pit bull from many other breeds of dogs. Just because they cannot tell what a pit bull is does not make any other breed a pit bull. There is only one pit bull.
Besides it is good that everybody does not always agree. It would get boring without people with different opinions.
Everything I posted wasn't about you, I just have to put a lot of things in one post and when I get to typing I get carried away. I am the same way when I am talking dogs with someone who knows what they are talking about.
I enjoyed the conservation.
Thanks

[debodebo]

I agree completely with almost everything you have been saying. I don't consider the staffs, bull terriers, mastiff crosses, or cross breds to be pit bulls. The part I don't agree with is I don't think the name pit bull represents any other dog but the pit bull. I realize many people cannot tell a pit bull from many other breeds of dogs. Just because they cannot tell what a pit bull is does not make any other breed a pit bull. There is only one pit bull.
Besides it is good that everybody does not always agree. It would get boring without people with different opinions.
Everything I posted wasn't about you, I just have to put a lot of things in one post and when I get to typing I get carried away. I am the same way when I am talking dogs with someone who knows what they are talking about.
I enjoyed the conservation.
ThanksI see where your comming from. You are right their is only one APBT. Other people just call every damn mutt in the world a pitbull. The name pitbull should only represent one breed, but the damn media labels everything a pitbull.

[debodebo]

Sooner or later if the circumstance surfaces any dog will meet it's match but sometimes it doesn't reach that point so IMO you have no point and you obviously aren't getting mine.When the dog meet its match that is when you would see if the dog was game or not. To have been called game the dog would have to be behind and fight through it. A game dog will not quit a cur will. Like Mickey said it is that simple. When did you get so interested in dogs being game anyway. Aren't you the person who was talking down on Grand CH Izods owner for having gray hairs and accusing her of dog fighting. Excuse the last comment if it was not you.

[Esse818]

one thing about curs if they are push hard enough they will react, its nature, like a person is getting attacked he/she would make an effort to fight back,

[debodebo]

one thing about curs if they are push hard enough they will react, its nature, like a person is getting attacked he/she would make an effort to fight back,They will fight until pushed to far. It is natural to fight back yes, but very few will continue when pushed past the limit. Look at mma fighters. Some will tap-out from a triangle some will go to sleep. I have seen fighters who get caught in armbars immediatly tapout, then you will see a few like Tim Silvia who will get his forearm snapped and try to continue to fight. Their is a difference.

[MR BIGGS]

These dogs are naturally dog aggressive and given that two dogs with cur status are pushed to their limits one will surely not back down no matter what. I'm not trying to make it out like this happens everyday and you got damn right I made the freakin comment because I wanted to know where it came from. U tryin to call me out on that doesn't take the light off of this topic we're discussin and it doesn't mean that I was never interested in game dogs. I just simply wanted to know what happened and people started gangin up on me so I bit back with whatever I could. That shouldn't matter to u and if u wanna call me out start another thread or send me a pm
When the dog meet its match that is when you would see if the dog was game or not. To have been called game the dog would have to be behind and fight through it. A game dog will not quit a cur will. Like Mickey said it is that simple. When did you get so interested in dogs being game anyway. Aren't you the person who was talking down on Grand CH Izods owner for having gray hairs and accusing her of dog fighting. Excuse the last comment if it was not you.

[Fedor23]

Re: Th3 Futur3 Of Apbt?

Aggresiveness towards other dogs is a trait from parents that is passed on. ALso u can't deny over 300 years of selective breeding.

[debodebo]

These dogs are naturally dog aggressive and given that two dogs with cur status are pushed to their limits one will surely not back down no matter what.
Dog aggression is not gameness. A cur will eventually quit. A game dog will not quit against another game dog or a cur. How hard is it to understand what gameness is. A cur will never be a game dog period.

[pancho]

one thing about curs if they are push hard enough they will react, its nature, like a person is getting attacked he/she would make an effort to fight back,
If given a chance a cur dog will jump the pit, run, or simply lay down. I have seen it happen before. A cur will just stop fighting and look for a place to hide. Sometimes they will run back to the handeler and try to hide. You cannot make a dog fight, many have tried.
I once bought some Bullyson dogs. Their sire was a very game dog. The dogs were all curs. I had to give them all away. They would even quit in a short roll with a dog 10 lbs. lighter. The bloodline was there, the ability was there, the strength was there, the mouth was there, the gameness wasn't.

[debodebo]

If given a chance a cur dog will jump the pit, run, or simply lay down. I have seen it happen before. A cur will just stop fighting and look for a place to hide. Sometimes they will run back to the handeler and try to hide. You cannot make a dog fight, many have tried.
I once bought some Bullyson dogs. Their sire was a very game dog. The dogs were all curs. I had to give them all away. They would even quit in a short roll with a dog 10 lbs. lighter. The bloodline was there, the ability was there, the strength was there, the mouth was there, the gameness wasn't.Exactly. It just seems that people are getting ability mixed up with gameness. Thanks for sharing hopefully they will understand this time.

[14rock]

Mr. Biggs, its obvious you have no experience with what your talking about. You'd be best suited to LISTEN to those who do, and learn a thing or two, or cease trying to make it seem like your opinion is relevant, when infact you have no knowledge of the things you argue.

[Esse818]

Mr. Biggs, its obvious you have no experience with what your talking about. You'd be best suited to LISTEN to those who do, and learn a thing or two, or cease trying to make it seem like your opinion is relevant, when infact you have no knowledge of the things you argue.how is game broven? a hunt of a wild bore? i never hunted animals but does a wild boar almost kill a dog?

how do dogs get game? could it be by how they are raised?

[NCPatchwork]

Yeah..I don't believe the dog aggression will ever leave...but I do believe that the AM.STAFF may be what people look for in the future. They are breeding more for companion, but I don't see any APBT owners who understand bloodlines and breeding ever letting go of the game dogs. People trying to breed APBT to be less DA will end up being pushed out of the gene pool and pushed to AM. Staffs

[MR BIGGS]

Well duh, I know aggression isn't gameness. Any dog can be aggressive but these dogs are naturally dog aggressive is what I was saying. Stop misreading and assuming
Dog aggression is not gameness. A cur will eventually quit. A game dog will not quit against another game dog or a cur. How hard is it to understand what gameness is. A cur will never be a game dog period.

[MR BIGGS]

You're right I have no experience fighting dogs and I'm proud to say that I don't and wouldn't want to participate in such an event but I do love and respect these dogs because of their personality and other traits. No need for you to tell me what I know or don't know. I was just stating a situation that sounds like it can happen if it hasn't already to know how would the outcome be determined. I would like to tell you to stop being si one-sided and look at things in a real world aspect. You don't know if people are matching curs.
Mr. Biggs, its obvious you have no experience with what your talking about. You'd be best suited to LISTEN to those who do, and learn a thing or two, or cease trying to make it seem like your opinion is relevant, when infact you have no knowledge of the things you argue.

[LuvinBullies]

how is game broven? a hunt of a wild bore? i never hunted animals but does a wild boar almost kill a dog?

how do dogs get game? could it be by how they are raised?Poor Esse818! You keep asking questions to learn and keep getting mowed over in all the arguing- and this was even your thread!!! :p

I am certainly not qualified to tell you about true gamedogs and I have not had the pleasure of owning such a great animal.
The best I can do is at least acknowledge your desire to learn- and tell you gameness is not something which can be assessed simply through hunting or tossing a couple of dogs into a ring. It is the heart of the dog,his determination to never never never ever quit trying to achieve his goal, and sheer refusal to accept defeat, or even acknowledge defeat exists for him. This is where one could start to understand the meaning of true game. The APBTs focus, level head and heroism all play into it as well.
Some like to feel their bulldogs have at least a shadow of this quality, simply because they are APBT on paper.
While others -the true dogmen I dare say- reserve this high honor only for those APBTs who are born, live and die with this special heroic quality that never fades-- right up to the end.

[mrsmickey351]

That is a great way of putting it Luvinbullies. Couldn't have said it any better.:)


Some like to feel their bulldogs have at least a shadow of this quality, simply because they are APBT on paper.
While others -the true dogmen I dare say- reserve this high honor only for those APBTs who are born, live and die with this special heroic quality that never fades-- right up to the end.

[mydawgs]

Esse818 -


Check this out:

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8258

[14rock]

You're right I have no experience fighting dogs and I'm proud to say that I don't and wouldn't want to participate in such an event but I do love and respect these dogs because of their personality and other traits. No need for you to tell me what I know or don't know. I was just stating a situation that sounds like it can happen if it hasn't already to know how would the outcome be determined. I would like to tell you to stop being si one-sided and look at things in a real world aspect. You don't know if people are matching curs.I dont fight my dogs either, but that doesnt mean some plenty of members here werent arround pre-1976 with first-hand experience, like one fellow your arguing with. Obviously that is not myself, but I dare reckon I've petted more true gamedogs on the head then you've ever had the honor of seeing. I'm one sided because I believe in sticking to what works, there is no need to change something that aint broke. Take a look at my sig line for how I feel about that! My "real world aspect" is from educating myself from those who have been doggin since before I was conceived, with no problems,and seeing idiots try to change things, buy pups off the streetcorner, and within months causing problems for our breed. And its an endless cycle, there will be 50 of these "new and improved" APBT's in trouble round here, before so much as one real gamedog gets recognized by the general public. I'm fine with that, so long as these people stop coat-tailing the APBT name, and seperate themselves from us!

And as for your last statement, I can GUARANTEE you people are matching curs. So long as dogs are put in the position to quit, most will, damn near all of them.

[pancho]

how is game broven? a hunt of a wild bore? i never hunted animals but does a wild boar almost kill a dog?

how do dogs get game? could it be by how they are raised?
Hi Esse,
The only way to prove a dog is game is in the []. Any other way will not work. I am not telling anyone to match their dog. That is just the only way they have ever been tested and the only reliable way to check.
Every dog does not have to be game. Every dog does not need to be tested. Different people want different things from their dogs. They choose from dogs that are closer to the ideal dog they want.
Dogs don't get game. They are either born that way or they are not ever. Not all are. Some mature later than others. A dog has to be mature before being tested.
Not everyone wants a game dog and most sure do not need one. They are just the main reason the pit bull was bred. Today less are bred that way and few are checked. That doesn't make them a bad dog.
It also takes a experienced person to test a dog. It is not something for everyone to do. You have to know when to pick your dog up. There isn't a reason to loose a dog trying to test it.
Hope I have helped. I don't know a lot, I have a little experience but there is a lot to learn. Let us know anything else you want to know.

[440rider]

A cur is always going to be a cur no matter how many dogs he beats. Why don't you understand this. You cannot make a cur into a gamedog.



......here's one for ya'll to chew on.....what do you consider a game dog (one that's shown their gameness time after time) that curs out?.......14, I think you read my post that was deleted on the Ch and GRCH that both did what many consider to be curring out. Like to hear what ya'll say on the matter.

[440rider]

The only way to prove a dog is game is in the []. Any other way will not work. I am not telling anyone to match their dog. That is just the only way they have ever been tested and the only reliable way to check.
Every dog does not have to be game. Every dog does not need to be tested. Different people want different things from their dogs. They choose from dogs that are closer to the ideal dog they want.
Dogs don't get game. They are either born that way or they are not ever. Not all are. Some mature later than others. A dog has to be mature before being tested.
Not everyone wants a game dog and most sure do not need one. They are just the main reason the pit bull was bred. Today less are bred that way and few are checked. That doesn't make them a bad dog.
It also takes a experienced person to test a dog. It is not something for everyone to do. You have to know when to pick your dog up. There isn't a reason to loose a dog trying to test it.
Hope I have helped. I don't know a lot, I have a little experience but there is a lot to learn. Let us know anything else you want to know.



NICE POST!

[Esse818]

Poor Esse818! You keep asking questions to learn and keep getting mowed over in all the arguing- and this was even your thread!!! :p

I am certainly not qualified to tell you about true gamedogs and I have not had the pleasure of owning such a great animal.
The best I can do is at least acknowledge your desire to learn- and tell you gameness is not something which can be assessed simply through hunting or tossing a couple of dogs into a ring. It is the heart of the dog,his determination to never never never ever quit trying to achieve his goal, and sheer refusal to accept defeat, or even acknowledge defeat exists for him. This is where one could start to understand the meaning of true game. The APBTs focus, level head and heroism all play into it as well.
Some like to feel their bulldogs have at least a shadow of this quality, simply because they are APBT on paper.
While others -the true dogmen I dare say- reserve this high honor only for those APBTs who are born, live and die with this special heroic quality that never fades-- right up to the end.don't trip, im still learn from what they say i don't mind. but thanks 4 ur concern

[Esse818]

Hi Esse,
The only way to prove a dog is game is in the []. Any other way will not work. I am not telling anyone to match their dog. That is just the only way they have ever been tested and the only reliable way to check.
Every dog does not have to be game. Every dog does not need to be tested. Different people want different things from their dogs. They choose from dogs that are closer to the ideal dog they want.
Dogs don't get game. They are either born that way or they are not ever. Not all are. Some mature later than others. A dog has to be mature before being tested.
Not everyone wants a game dog and most sure do not need one. They are just the main reason the pit bull was bred. Today less are bred that way and few are checked. That doesn't make them a bad dog.
It also takes a experienced person to test a dog. It is not something for everyone to do. You have to know when to pick your dog up. There isn't a reason to loose a dog trying to test it.
Hope I have helped. I don't know a lot, I have a little experience but there is a lot to learn. Let us know anything else you want to know. thanks and true, but if hog hunting with a dog is that dangerous, in my eyes its almost like a dog fight in many ways but just suger coat it so those green tree ppl won't complant.

[LuvinBullies]

don't trip, im still learn from what they say i don't mind.Hee hee hee. That's me, ol' Luvin. Jus' a trip trip trippin'. Trippin' along.

You have a great attitude, Esse818. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "don't trip"...but that's okay. I was pointing out your question so it could get answered. Hope it has...;)

[kane85]

Hi Esse,
The only way to prove a dog is game is in the []. Any other way will not work. I am not telling anyone to match their dog. That is just the only way they have ever been tested and the only reliable way to check.
Every dog does not have to be game. Every dog does not need to be tested. Different people want different things from their dogs. They choose from dogs that are closer to the ideal dog they want.
Dogs don't get game. They are either born that way or they are not ever. Not all are. Some mature later than others. A dog has to be mature before being tested.
Not everyone wants a game dog and most sure do not need one. They are just the main reason the pit bull was bred. Today less are bred that way and few are checked. That doesn't make them a bad dog.
It also takes a experienced person to test a dog. It is not something for everyone to do. You have to know when to pick your dog up. There isn't a reason to loose a dog trying to test it.
Hope I have helped. I don't know a lot, I have a little experience but there is a lot to learn. Let us know anything else you want to know.i'am still learning and iam not trying to bash on anybody but i have heard on here and from other people that there are other ways to game test or thats what they claim anyway i dont know i herd of people puting a vest on a dog and puting it in the [] with a wild hog has anybody else herd of this before i herd its the new way of testing dogs i herd people doing it i think it illegal in some states and in others not but have also herd of peoples dogs get taken away because of it.

[pancho]

Pit bulls have been matched against just about any animal you can think of. Bulls, bears, tigers, wolves, wolverines, monkeys, and men.
The one thing that all the other animals have in common, they are not game. They have to be in a pen or cage, with the exception of man, and be made to fight to survive. It is hard to game test a dog against another animal that does not have a degree of gameness. All of these animals are tough and the dog that goes against them has to be tough and many times looses their life.
If going against a wild hog proves gameness then there are a lot of staffs, american bulls, mixes, some hounds, and even some of the blues that are very game.

[14rock]

14, I think you read my post that was deleted on the Ch and GRCH that both did what many consider to be curring out. Like to hear what ya'll say on the matter.I dont recall. Are you speaking of Beast and Glock?

[nikeballer06]

I dont recall. Are you speaking of Beast and Glock?
Sounds like it. Those two dogs were pieces of you know what is what my mentor told me. One of my mentor's Mayday/Mechanic dog outhunted the Beast's brother and wanted to hunt with the Beast but the Beast's owners didn't want to hunt with him as they hide behind their money, curs! Glock was overrated and would have been sent to Vic's yard if everything would have happened successfully to bring in the good ole money flow! Both dogs got exposed and that's great for the dogs and the owners; hunting should be about the dogs, not the money, and hype can have a drawback if the dog doesn't live up to it. Oh well...

[Esse818]

Hee hee hee. That's me, ol' Luvin. Jus' a trip trip trippin'. Trippin' along.

You have a great attitude, Esse818. I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "don't trip"...but that's okay. I was pointing out your question so it could get answered. Hope it has...;) it means dont worry,

[LuvinBullies]

it means dont worry,10 4 good buddy.;)

[Esse818]

10 4 good buddy.;) http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif..........