Are RE/Gotti really mutts?

[PitBull_30]

I'll start by stating my views so hopefully I won't get a bunch of angry BS responses.

I do not believe in breeding dogs that are not game or at least from proven stock. I think if someone is going to breed for show they should breed dogs that have sound temperaments, are healthy, have drive and/or working ability, and meet the conformation standard staying as close to that as possible and not buying into fads. This includes the weight range. I do not support any breeder who breeds for profit, color, or size whether it be of the head, chest, bone, muscle, jaw, teeth, or of the dog itself.


OK, here I go.

I think we need to relax a bit when it comes to bashing bully style dogs. First of we have almost no proof that either Gottiline or Razor's Edge dogs are mixed with other breeds. The only proof being that they don't look like APBTs and that your brother's uncle's sister read on the net that a breeder admitted his dogs are mixed.
Both of these lines have AKC blood pretty close up and AmStaffs are already overdone. There is also Gaff blood in there. I've never heard anyone say that Gaff dogs are mixed with other breeds. If you look at Gaff dogs like Bakala, Eddie, Grandy, Molly, Max, Princess Leah, Simba, Pumpkin, Taffy, and even Cool Hand Luke and they're all as bad, or at least close to, Razor's Edge and Gottiline dogs.

If RE and Gotti are mixed with Neos where is the cherry eye and extreme dewlap?


You can't breed a dog like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/Zoom2.jpg

to a dog like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/neamastiff.jpg

and get consistent litters of dogs like this. http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/ghcigc.jpg


You can't breed a dog with little to no lippyness and dewlap to a Neo and get three consistent generations of dogs with little to no lippyness and dewlap.


Posting pictures like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gottiwitbulldogwithnames.jpg are just unfair. The picture of Gotti has him sitting, which makes his chest stick out more, and is taken from above which makes him look like he has no legs. The picture of Eddie, the Bulldog, is at eye level and there is no shadowing on his white chest which makes it look smaller and less pronounced. How many of you have seen 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti in person?



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotty_201.jpg

Look at this picture of him. He doesn't look nearly as overdone. Pictures can be deceiving.


A lot of true Old Family Reds are 60-70 pounds and there are dogs like Bumatay's Brutus, who was 90 pounds, and Trussell's Dum Dum who was 85 pounds. These dogs are all game bred. Trussell's Dum Dum had heavy Dibo blood. There are quite a few game bred dogs in the 70-80 pound range as well. Colby's Pinscher, CH Plumber's Alligator, GR CH Evolution Kennel's Machobuck, GR CH Latin Force Kennel's Barracuda, GR CH Shankbone's Lionhead, and GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM are just a few. Not to mention there are plenty of overdone game bred dogs. Some of them are, CH Ljuzda Kennel's Patak, DBL GR CH K. Allen's Tornado, GR CH Coy's B.B. Red, Clouse's Fanny, CH Busenbark's Rattler ROM, CH Clouse's Big Boy, CH Giroux' Booger ROM, CH Tudor's Jeff, CH Watchdog's Big Thor, CH Whitsell's Bloodwork, CH McConnell Revhead Ace of Ace I, CH STP's Tag, CH Mason's Hog, GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM aka GR CH Creed's Iron Dusty ROM, GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM, Hammond's Dio Duel POR, Hammond's Park Son ROM, Hammond's Rufus ROM, Hemphill's Geronimo, Lonzo's Andy, Lonzo'a Danger, and Lonzo's Muscle. None of them are as bad as Gottiline's Star but Hammond's Park Son ROM had a much bigger head compared to his body than Gotti. So did Armitage's Brandy. Both GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM and CH Clouse's Big Boy were much more massive and overdone than 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti. Does that mean they're English Bulldogs too?


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/GRCHRossRedDevilROM8xw3.jpg
GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM 8xw




http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/CHClousesBigBoy.jpg

CH Clouse's Big Boy



I think it is ridiculous for people to call Gotti a pure bred English Bulldog. He has been called an AmStaff, APBT, Pit Bull, Neo/Pit, American Bulldog, Bulldog, AmBull/Pit, AmStaff/Neo, and American Bully but none of the people claiming he is one breed or another really know.

Game bred dog owners say that DNA testing doesn't mean anything because it can be faked but almost no game bred dogs out there even have the testing. It is only by someone's word that you have any sort of guarantee the dog is pure.

Looking at 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti's pedigree it looks entirely possible that he could be from the dogs his pedigree says he's from. No dog in his six generation pedigree looks so drastically different that one would even think that it is not from the sire and dam that are listed. This includes Gotti. He's about the same size as Raider II (sire) and has his head, but with a slightly deeper stop, and his color. Gotti's chest is a bit more prominent than his parent's but not as deep as Calee's (dam). Gotti toes out slightly and has pretty well let down pasterns like both of his parents do. Also Calee (dam) was missing her P1s and so is Gotti. He goes back to AmStaff blood and blue is a common AmStaff color and has been for quite some time now. Why with all the blue AmStaffs in his pedigree would he need Neapolitan Mastiff blood to be that color?

Just some food for thought.



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesRaiderII.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesRaiderII2.jpg

'PR' Greyline's Raider II (Gotti's sire)











http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotti.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotty_201.jpg

'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti












http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood2.jpg

'PR' Greyline's Calee Love BlueGood (Gotti's dam)






I'm hoping for sensible responses and that everyone won't go crazy because I said the word "blue". Just about every thread started that even mentions the word blue, or is about a blue dog ends up being closed because everyone's got to bash the dogs and the bloodlines even if it was a good thread that had little to do with them. I made my point of view clear in the beginning of this post so it'd be nice if everyone didn't start calling me a puppy peddler and what not.

[NOVICE]

PITBULL 30, Brace yourself.

[BoiBoi]

Um ok so if Gotti's Ped says that both of his parents are amstaff's and most of his ancestor's are amstaff's then why don't we all just leave it at that and call him what he his, an amstaff. Now i wonder if the hardcore amstaff people would want to claim him as one of their own. If this is truely the case then there should not be any discussion of gotti on this forum anymore because of the fact that he is not APBT and therefore we shouldn't discuss any dogs off of him because they aren't APBT and as we all know this is strictly a APBT forum, point blank period

[SAM_I_AM]

Um ok so if Gotti's Ped says that both of his parents are amstaff's and most of his ancestor's are amstaff's then why don't we all just leave it at that and call him what he his, an amstaff. Now i wonder if the hardcore amstaff people would want to claim him as one of their own. If this is truely the case then there should not be any discussion of gotti on this forum anymore because of the fact that he is not APBT and therefore we shouldn't discuss any dogs off of him because they aren't APBT and as we all know this is strictly a APBT forum, point blank periodnot even the Amstaff people want anything to do with him thats why they started calling them american bullies and even just recently started there own registry.

[PitBull_30]

I know. The BS responses will probably still come. I just thought I'd look at it from another point of view.



^ WOW! Before I could even finish typing this post there were two of them.

[Diesel]

You I like... and not because You are saying what I have been. But because you are standing on your own two feet and using your own mind to determine your final decision. You are not a sheep, simply following the crowds mentality, regardless of what baord this is. I am very impressed you have put together a very concise argument. Great pics and FACTS to back up your points.

I am interested in seeing what comes back from this one myself.

[cheekymunkee]

There IS no other point of view. AM Staffs don't look like that. Pit bulls don't look like that. EB's don't look like that. But a mix of the afore mentioned DO look like that. Some RE dogs are pretty decent looking dogs, I wouldn't say they are ALL mixes but there is too many iffy looking dogs to believe the peds on any of them. JMO

[Pitbull219]

I'm not going to comment on your topic. But, I will say this, you've got balls!!! I respect that.......

[BoiBoi]

not even the Amstaff people want anything to do with him thats why they started calling them american bullies and even just recently started there own registry.
U know that's what blows my mind about the whole thing. The papers say he's amstaff so he must be right, LOL yea right we all know how easily papers can be hung. Truth be told i don't think we will ever truly know what Gotti or any of those type of dogs really are, so from now on im gonna create a name for them, I think ill call them Big Blue Cur Dog lol.

[TripleJ]

I'll start by stating my views so hopefully I won't get a bunch of angry BS responses.

I do not believe in breeding dogs that are not game or at least from proven stock. I think if someone is going to breed for show they should breed dogs that have sound temperaments, are healthy, have drive and/or working ability, and meet the conformation standard staying as close to that as possible and not buying into fads. This includes the weight range. I do not support any breeder who breeds for profit, color, or size whether it be of the head, chest, bone, muscle, jaw, teeth, or of the dog itself.


OK, here I go.

I think we need to relax a bit when it comes to bashing bully style dogs. First of we have almost no proof that either Gottiline or Razor's Edge dogs are mixed with other breeds. The only proof being that they don't look like APBTs and that your brother's uncle's sister read on the net that a breeder admitted his dogs are mixed.
Both of these lines have AKC blood pretty close up and AmStaffs are already overdone. There is also Gaff blood in there. I've never heard anyone say that Gaff dogs are mixed with other breeds. If you look at Gaff dogs like Bakala, Eddie, Grandy, Molly, Max, Princess Leah, Simba, Pumpkin, Taffy, and even Cool Hand Luke and they're all as bad, or at least close to, Razor's Edge and Gottiline dogs.

If RE and Gotti are mixed with Neos where is the cherry eye and extreme dewlap?


You can't breed a dog like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/Zoom2.jpg

to a dog like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/neamastiff.jpg

and get consistent litters of dogs like this. http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/ghcigc.jpg


You can't breed a dog with little to no lippyness and dewlap to a Neo and get three consistent generations of dogs with little to no lippyness and dewlap.


Posting pictures like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gottiwitbulldogwithnames.jpg are just unfair. The picture of Gotti has him sitting, which makes his chest stick out more, and is taken from above which makes him look like he has no legs. The picture of Eddie, the Bulldog, is at eye level and there is no shadowing on his white chest which makes it look smaller and less pronounced. How many of you have seen 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti in person?



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotty_201.jpg

Look at this picture of him. He doesn't look nearly as overdone. Pictures can be deceiving.


A lot of true Old Family Reds are 60-70 pounds and there are dogs like Bumatay's Brutus, who was 90 pounds, and Trussell's Dum Dum who was 85 pounds. These dogs are all game bred. Trussell's Dum Dum had heavy Dibo blood. There are quite a few game bred dogs in the 70-80 pound range as well. Colby's Pinscher, CH Plumber's Alligator, GR CH Evolution Kennel's Machobuck, GR CH Latin Force Kennel's Barracuda, GR CH Shankbone's Lionhead, and GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM are just a few. Not to mention there are plenty of overdone game bred dogs. Some of them are, CH Ljuzda Kennel's Patak, DBL GR CH K. Allen's Tornado, GR CH Coy's B.B. Red, Clouse's Fanny, CH Busenbark's Rattler ROM, CH Clouse's Big Boy, CH Giroux' Booger ROM, CH Tudor's Jeff, CH Watchdog's Big Thor, CH Whitsell's Bloodwork, CH McConnell Revhead Ace of Ace I, CH STP's Tag, CH Mason's Hog, GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM aka GR CH Creed's Iron Dusty ROM, GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM, Hammond's Dio Duel POR, Hammond's Park Son ROM, Hammond's Rufus ROM, Hemphill's Geronimo, Lonzo's Andy, Lonzo'a Danger, and Lonzo's Muscle. None of them are as bad as Gottiline's Star but Hammond's Park Son ROM had a much bigger head compared to his body than Gotti. So did Armitage's Brandy. Both GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM and CH Clouse's Big Boy were much more massive and overdone than 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti. Does that mean they're English Bulldogs too?


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/GRCHRossRedDevilROM8xw3.jpg
GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM 8xw




http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/CHClousesBigBoy.jpg

CH Clouse's Big Boy



I think it is ridiculous for people to call Gotti a pure bred English Bulldog. He has been called an AmStaff, APBT, Pit Bull, Neo/Pit, American Bulldog, Bulldog, AmBull/Pit, AmStaff/Neo, and American Bully but none of the people claiming he is one breed or another really know.

Game bred dog owners say that DNA testing doesn't mean anything because it can be faked but almost no game bred dogs out there even have the testing. It is only by someone's word that you have any sort of guarantee the dog is pure.

Looking at 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti's pedigree it looks entirely possible that he could be from the dogs his pedigree says he's from. No dog in his six generation pedigree looks so drastically different that one would even think that it is not from the sire and dam that are listed. This includes Gotti. He's about the same size as Raider II (sire) and has his head, but with a slightly deeper stop, and his color. Gotti's chest is a bit more prominent than his parent's but not as deep as Calee's (dam). Gotti toes out slightly and has pretty well let down pasterns like both of his parents do. Also Calee (dam) was missing her P1s and so is Gotti. He goes back to AmStaff blood and blue is a common AmStaff color and has been for quite some time now. Why with all the blue AmStaffs in his pedigree would he need Neapolitan Mastiff blood to be that color?

Just some food for thought.



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesRaiderII.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesRaiderII2.jpg

'PR' Greyline's Raider II (Gotti's sire)











http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotti.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotty_201.jpg

'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti












http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood2.jpg

'PR' Greyline's Calee Love BlueGood (Gotti's dam)






I'm hoping for sensible responses and that everyone won't go crazy because I said the word "blue". Just about every thread started that even mentions the word blue, or is about a blue dog ends up being closed because everyone's got to bash the dogs and the bloodlines even if it was a good thread that had little to do with them. I made my point of view clear in the beginning of this post so it'd be nice if everyone didn't start calling me a puppy peddler and what not.

I think a lot of people dont like it due to People are buying that B.S.I my self have GAME dogs (yes I said it) and breed ONLY GAME dogs But if you or any one wants that fine . I just dont like it when some one mistakes a HA bully with the type of dogs I have. YIS J

[Iverson's Pits]

I BELIEVE GOTTI HIMSELF TO BE MOSTLY AMSTAFF. CALLE LOVE, HOWEVER, I BELIEVE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF DOGGE DE BORDEAUX/EB IN HER.....IN TURN....GIVING GOTTI SOME. I DIDN'T REALLY SEE IT UNTIL SOMEONE CLOSE TO MR. BARAJAS SAID SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND I THINK ITS DEFINITELY POSSIBLE. LOOK....GOTTI IS NOT THAT BAD LOOKING OF A DOG, BUT WITH EACH "GOTTI-LINE" BREEDING THAT FOLLOWS...THE DOGS GET WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE. THIS IS EITHER COMING FROM PEOPLE MIXING SHIT IN AFTER GOTTI....OR THE LINE-BREEDING ON GOTTI IS BRINGING FORTH THE TRAITS OF OTHER BREEDS MIXED INTO HIM. SO WHICH ONE IS IT. YOU CANNOT LOOK AT 'BOOGIE' AND TELL ME HE IS PURE APBT OR EVEN AMSTAFF. HERE'S A PIC OF BOOGIE FOR THOSE WHO DONT KNOW HIM.

PS: BOOGIE IS A SON OF 'MONSTER'....THE MOST FAMOUS SON OF GOTTI.

[SAM_I_AM]

not sure if anyone has seen this but this is there new registry and this is the breed standard for the "new bully breed"

www.theabkc.com/ (http://www.theabkc.com/)



The American Bully is a breed established in the mid 1990’s with the purpose of creating the ultimate family companion. The breed is a combination of the desired traits of the American Pit Bull Terrier and the American Staffordshire Terrier achieved through years of selective breeding. The American Bully breed possesses the loyalty and stability of the American Pit Bull Terrier while retaining the sociable, amiable, and outgoing temperament of the American Staffordshire Terrier breed. This unique breed is noted for displaying extreme tolerance toward children and an overwhelming eagerness to please its family. Confident, yet not aggressive, this breed is all in all of a pleasant temperament. Physically, the American Bully has a graceful yet impressive, solid, defined, athletic build that is both muscular and toned, and denotes strength as well as agility. It is a breed capable and diverse in all tasks and abilities. The American Bully is a well rounded, reliable, trustworthy, and all around ideal family companion.

American Bully Breed Standard

General Impression
The American Bully should give the impression of great strength for his size. A well put-together dog, muscular, but agile and graceful, keenly alive to his surroundings. He should be stocky, not long-legged or racy in outline. His courage is proverbial.

Head
Medium length, deep through, broad skull, very pronounced cheek muscles, distinct stop, and high set ears. Ears - Cropped or uncropped. Eyes - All colors except albinism. Round to oval, low down in skull and set far apart. Muzzle - Medium length, rounded on upper side or slightly squared to fall away abruptly below eyes. Jaws well defined. Under jaw to be strong and have biting power. Lips close and even, some looseness accepted, but not preferred. Upper teeth to meet tightly outside lower teeth in front or scissor bite accepted. Nose all colors acceptable.

Neck
Heavy, slightly arched, tapering from shoulders to back of skull. No looseness of skin. Medium length.

Shoulders
Strong and muscular with blades wide and sloping.

Back
Fairly short. Slight sloping from withers to rump or straight accepted with gentle short slope at rump to base of tail. Slightly higher rears accepted, but not encouraged.

Body
Well-sprung ribs, deep in rear. All ribs close together. Forelegs set rather wide apart to permit chest development. Chest deep and broad.

Tail
Short in comparison to size, low set, tapering to a fine point; not curled. Not docked.

Legs
The Front legs- should be straight a slight turning outwards of the feet is accepted but not desired, large or round bones, pastern upright. No resemblance of bend in front. Hindquarters- well-muscled, let down at hocks, turning neither in nor out. Feet- of moderate size, well-arched and compact. Gait- should be springy with drive off the rear.

Coat
Short, close, stiff to the touch, and glossy.

Color
All colors and patterns are permissible.

Size
Height and weight should be in proportion. A height of about 18 to 21 inches at shoulders for the male and 17 to 20 inches for the female is to be considered preferable. There is no particular weight for the breed.

Faults
Faults to be penalized are: kinked or knotted tails, pink eyes and any form of albinism, tail too long or curled, undershot or overshot mouths, severe turned fronts, and aggressive behavior towards humans.

[BoiBoi]

I BELIEVE GOTTI HIMSELF TO BE MOSTLY AMSTAFF. CALLE LOVE, HOWEVER, I BELIEVE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF DOGGE DE BORDEAUX/EB IN HER.....IN TURN....GIVING GOTTI SOME. I DIDN'T REALLY SEE IT UNTIL SOMEONE CLOSE TO MR. BARAJAS SAID SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND I THINK ITS DEFINITELY POSSIBLE. LOOK....GOTTI IS NOT THAT BAD LOOKING OF A DOG, BUT WITH EACH "GOTTI-LINE" BREEDING THAT FOLLOWS...THE DOGS GET WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE. THIS IS EITHER COMING FROM PEOPLE MIXING SHIT IN AFTER GOTTI....OR THE LINE-BREEDING ON GOTTI IS BRINGING FORTH THE TRAITS OF OTHER BREEDS MIXED INTO HIM. SO WHICH ONE IS IT. YOU CANNOT LOOK AT 'BOOGIE' AND TELL ME HE IS PURE APBT OR EVEN AMSTAFF. HERE'S A PIC OF BOOGIE FOR THOSE WHO DONT KNOW HIM.

PS: BOOGIE IS A SON OF 'MONSTER'....THE MOST FAMOUS SON OF GOTTI.
Now what damn purpose would a dog like monster serve, can someone explain that to me because i haven't the slightest clue. Can that dog do weight pull, cause i know it definately can't win any conformation shows. Its crazy to even think of actually feeding that dog on ur own yard knowing that the dog only serves 3 purposes, eat, shit, and reproduce, well we can say only 2 purposes if u combine the last 2 because its basically the same thing

[Iverson's Pits]

Interesting Thing Is...some Of These Dogs Used To Be Fit! Here's What I Mean....here Is A Before And After Pic Of Monster:

[gamebred26]

In my eyes if you are not breeding for gameness then why are you breeding....period...I don't care what color ..size ...shape etc. If you are breeding bulldogs then breed em for what they were intended to do....work.


I hate that people say they have "drive"...wtf is that?....he can work a spring pole.....whoopy do....he can catch a hog....whooo hooo....


Can he scratch when it's on the line???....if he can't...and his parents couldn't.....and their parents couldn't....then they are mutts....worthless mutts...

and if you are breeding untested dogs then you are ruining the breed....

show me one proven Gotti dog...

[BoiBoi]

In my eyes if you are not breeding for gameness then why are you breeding....period...I don't care what color ..size ...shape etc. If you are breeding bulldogs then breed em for what they were intended to do....work.


I hate that people say they have "drive"...wtf is that?....he can work a spring pole.....whoopy do....he can catch a hog....whooo hooo....


Can he scratch when it's on the line???....if he can't...and his parents couldn't.....and their parents couldn't....then they are mutts....worthless mutts...

and if you are breeding untested dogs then you are ruining the breed....

show me one proven Gotti dog...
AMEN TO THAT...and on that note this topic of these mutts should be dropped 4ever because we all know that they are worthless food vaccumes that take craps bigger than horses lol

[Iverson's Pits]

HAHA....THANKS FOR THAT RANDOM INTERJECTION :)

UNFORTUNATELY, I'LL BE HAVING A LITTER OF LITTLE 'STAFFS ON THE 10TH. I WAS TDY TO VEGAS AND THE WIFE LET THE TWO PLAY TOGETHER....OOPS! ITS REALLY BAD TIMING TOO....WE JUST BOUGHT A HOUSE AND ARE MOVING IN. I HAD TO BUILD A WHELP BOX TODAY.....UGH!


In my eyes if you are not breeding for gameness then why are you breeding....period...I don't care what color ..size ...shape etc. If you are breeding bulldogs then breed em for what they were intended to do....work.


I hate that people say they have "drive"...wtf is that?....he can work a spring pole.....whoopy do....he can catch a hog....whooo hooo....


Can he scratch when it's on the line???....if he can't...and his parents couldn't.....and their parents couldn't....then they are mutts....worthless mutts...

and if you are breeding untested dogs then you are ruining the breed....

show me one proven Gotti dog...

[SAM_I_AM]

AMEN TO THAT...and on that note this topic of these mutts should be dropped 4ever because we all know that they are worthless food vaccumes that take craps bigger than horses lol
damn thats some big crap....

[NOVICE]

I don't like the dogs for myself but I don't see the point in insulting those dogs, or any dogs for that matter. I just happen to like dogs, call me crazy. I think that alot of the people that own and breed bullys are irresponsible and endanger other related breeds through their behavior, but not all of em. If it weren't for that I wouldn't care one way or the other. As long as they don't bite anybody I don't care.

I'm interested in hearing what people think about the game dogs that are especially bully looking. Like the pictures of Red Devil and Big Boy. There not as uncommon as people seem to think. If someone was able to clone Red Devil and put a modern picture of him up on this board I bet people would be bashing him as a bully curr bread for looks until the sun came up.

[TripleJ]

In my eyes if you are not breeding for gameness then why are you breeding....period...I don't care what color ..size ...shape etc. If you are breeding bulldogs then breed em for what they were intended to do....work.


I hate that people say they have "drive"...wtf is that?....he can work a spring pole.....whoopy do....he can catch a hog....whooo hooo....


Can he scratch when it's on the line???....if he can't...and his parents couldn't.....and their parents couldn't....then they are mutts....worthless mutts...

and if you are breeding untested dogs then you are ruining the breed....

show me one proven Gotti dog... Right On! I dont see what people see in them they are ugly as sin to me Why dont they buy a rott or some thing if they want a big dog. I meen look at that fat ass dog OMG (spay that thing) Would you want a wife that looked like that? lol or a slick little honey. YIS J

[NOVICE]

I don't get the calling dogs worthless thing. I happen to like game dogs, that's my preference. That doesn't mean that I have to think any dog that won't scratch is worthless, it's just not game. There's lots of good dogs in the world who's purpose isn't to scratch the line.

[SAM_I_AM]

I don't get the calling dogs worthless thing. I happen to like game dogs, that's my preference. That doesn't mean that I have to think any dog that won't scratch is worthless, it's just not game. There's lots of good dogs in the world who's purpose isn't to scratch the line.i dont think that not scratching the line is the problem i think it is saying that it can. The biggest problem i have with them is calling them APBT when they are clearly not. apples to apples and oranges to oranges, dont show me an apple and tell me that its an orange.

[14rock]

You can't breed a dog like this

to a dog like this

and get consistent litters of dogs like this.


Really? Run a search for bandogges, even first generation crosses usually come out looking more like a "pitbull" than these "bullies".

You can't breed a dog with little to no lippyness and dewlap to a Neo and get three consistent generations of dogs with little to no lippyness and dewlap.

Sure you can, with the right dogs and culling the defectives, no one would ever know! Once you've established a type and all but weeded that trait out of the dogs, it will very rarely pop up again, and if it does 5 generations down the road the original breeder will just claim someone else mixed something, but surely not them!


Posting pictures like this are just unfair. The picture of Gotti has him sitting, which makes his chest stick out more, and is taken from above which makes him look like he has no legs. The picture of Eddie, the Bulldog, is at eye level and there is no shadowing on his white chest which makes it look smaller and less pronounced.


Are you really trying to argue there are no striking similarities there, and its all just a picture thing? One is a pure OEB, one is supposedly a pure APBT. Why doesnt it strike you as odd they look like they could of very easily been littermates!

How many of you have seen 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti in person?
Never, all we get to see of him are the pictures his fans take. If these are bad pictures of him, they are still the ones taken by nuthuggers to exaggerate his size/structure or whatever! Either way, it boils down to bad breeding ethics.





Look at this picture of him. He doesn't look nearly as overdone. Pictures can be deceiving.
Yes they can, but is it any suprise why the most popular pictures of him are the grossly overdone looking pictures? LOL He still looks like an AB there....

A lot of true Old Family Reds are 60-70 pounds and there are dogs like Bumatay's Brutus, who was 90 pounds, and Trussell's Dum Dum who was 85 pounds. These dogs are all game bred. Trussell's Dum Dum had heavy Dibo blood. There are quite a few game bred dogs in the 70-80 pound range as well. Colby's Pinscher, CH Plumber's Alligator, GR CH Evolution Kennel's Machobuck, GR CH Latin Force Kennel's Barracuda, GR CH Shankbone's Lionhead, and GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM are just a few. Not to mention there are plenty of overdone game bred dogs. Some of them are, CH Ljuzda Kennel's Patak, DBL GR CH K. Allen's Tornado, GR CH Coy's B.B. Red, Clouse's Fanny, CH Busenbark's Rattler ROM, CH Clouse's Big Boy, CH Giroux' Booger ROM, CH Tudor's Jeff, CH Watchdog's Big Thor, CH Whitsell's Bloodwork, CH McConnell Revhead Ace of Ace I, CH STP's Tag, CH Mason's Hog, GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM aka GR CH Creed's Iron Dusty ROM, GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM, Hammond's Dio Duel POR, Hammond's Park Son ROM, Hammond's Rufus ROM, Hemphill's Geronimo, Lonzo's Andy, Lonzo'a Danger, and Lonzo's Muscle. None of them are as bad as Gottiline's Star but Hammond's Park Son ROM had a much bigger head compared to his body than Gotti. So did Armitage's Brandy. Both GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM and CH Clouse's Big Boy were much more massive and overdone than 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti. Does that mean they're English Bulldogs too?

Sure there have been large gamebred dogs, even larger winners, but you are exaggerating as much as anyone does on Gotti! I dont know the exact weights of the older dogs without looking them up, but some of the recent ones you posted come no where near 70-80 lbs. Macho for example is a 51 lber. so I dont know where your getting this....


GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM 8xw






CH Clouse's Big Boy

Yup, those are some extremely overdone bulldogs of past. But you know what, they could WORK! Further, they were freaks and didnt produce like themselves. For example, I've got a Ironline bitch which is basically bred off Wises' Maximillion, a son of Red Devil. 28 lbs. with a basketball belly and soaking wet!


I think it is ridiculous for people to call Gotti a pure bred English Bulldog. He has been called an AmStaff, APBT, Pit Bull, Neo/Pit, American Bulldog, Bulldog, AmBull/Pit, AmStaff/Neo, and American Bully but none of the people claiming he is one breed or another really know.

I for one wouldnt call him a purebred English bulldog. Thats way too much credit, I wouldnt call him "purebred" anything other than mutt or the newly created term "bully". And your correct, you dont know, I dont know, none of us truely know. All we can go upon is from ques we take with our eyes, our gut, and motives. For example, if the dog looks like a mutt, acts like a mutt, and the breeder is becoming filthy rich peddling a mutt....why expect him to come clean?!

Game bred dog owners say that DNA testing doesn't mean anything because it can be faked but almost no game bred dogs out there even have the testing. It is only by someone's word that you have any sort of guarantee the dog is pure.

I dont see your logic here either. Dna testing is easily falsified by both gamebred owners, "bully" owners, and rabbit breeders too I would assume. The only proof we may have is a breeders word based on their reputation. If thats not enough for you, dont buy the dog! You are admitting DNA testing can be faked, but then seem to make it seem like bullies are better because hey, "at least they have the testing!". If we both know how inconclusive the test is, I'd assume you would of thrown that statement out the window as it has no credibility what-so-ever.

Looking at 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti's pedigree it looks entirely possible that he could be from the dogs his pedigree says he's from. No dog in his six generation pedigree looks so drastically different that one would even think that it is not from the sire and dam that are listed. This includes Gotti. He's about the same size as Raider II (sire) and has his head, but with a slightly deeper stop, and his color. Gotti's chest is a bit more prominent than his parent's but not as deep as Calee's (dam). Gotti toes out slightly and has pretty well let down pasterns like both of his parents do. Also Calee (dam) was missing her P1s and so is Gotti. He goes back to AmStaff blood and blue is a common AmStaff color and has been for quite some time now. Why with all the blue AmStaffs in his pedigree would he need Neapolitan Mastiff blood to be that color?

He wouldnt, American bulldog would work just the same. We already stated neither of us will ever know for sure since we didnt see the breeding take place, so why limit the discussion to Neos only? Sure, it helps your case, but lets tell all the facts if we are to have a good discussion. I can give drastic examples as well. I could of pulled up pictures of dogs on the farthest end of the spectrum to post as you did with the disgusting show neo, and tight skinned APBT of a diffrent color, with diffrent ears. I could of very easily sifted through the pics of bandogges on the net and sent you the examples which best fit my case, but thats misleading isnt it? I offered you to search for yourself,even if many of the examples you'll see dont look much liek an APBT considering its still not a set breed, and bandogge can refer to many mixes of dogs/breeds with no set standards.
Just some food for thought.





'PR' Greyline's Raider II (Gotti's sire)











'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti











'PR' Greyline's Calee Love BlueGood (Gotti's dam)

Looking at those pics, I'd say I'd be much more inclined to belief his father is mostly staff, and his mother is where the mixed blood comes in. Do you not notice the bugeyedness in these dogs and the miss-shapen skull? Where does this come from?



I'm hoping for sensible responses and that everyone won't go crazy because I said the word "blue". Just about every thread started that even mentions the word blue, or is about a blue dog ends up being closed because everyone's got to bash the dogs and the bloodlines even if it was a good thread that had little to do with them. I made my point of view clear in the beginning of this post so it'd be nice if everyone didn't start calling me a puppy peddler and what not.


PUPPY PEDDLER!

















:p LOL ok, that last bit was just for fun. I'm game for a sensible debate, as always. Its probably arguing a moot point, as neither side is going to concede, but it doesnt hurt to discuss differing view-points with folks and try and see all angles.


ETA-I had to remove most of the pics so I could still quote you and respond, as it was close to 1000 characters too long to post....

[NOVICE]

i dont think that not scratching the line is the problem i think it is saying that it can. The biggest problem i have with them is calling them APBT when they are clearly not. apples to apples and oranges to oranges, dont show me an apple and tell me that its an orange.
I can certainly agree with that but whatever bullshit the owner is spouting about the dog they own is no fault of the dog's.

[Diesel]

a thing to mention with the EBT gotty comparison pic is you get no sense of size. Gotty is a big tall dog, 21" at the shoulder... there is now way that EBT is more thn 17 maybe 18". its just a picture.

[bahamutt99]

"You have balls. I like balls."

--Terrorist from Team America

************

If the argument is being presented that dogs like Gotty are purebred AmStaffs or APBTs or whichever, I can believe that. Mutants can pop out of any litter, and if you start breeding selectively for that, that's what you'll keep getting. You wouldn't necessarily have to cross in any other breed, just keep breeding ugly to ugly and pretty soon you'll get a face that would make even a mother scream.

Can't really excuse the breeding of man-biting horrendous curs -- and I don't think you're trying to do that -- so I can wrap my head around the gist of what you're trying to say.

[magsgirl]

as to what people think of red devil and butcher boy, they don't have the look that i like , but correct me if i'm wrong , but red devil was a 8xw and butcher boy a 4xw. that's why they are'nt no good curs!

[TripleJ]

I'll start by stating my views so hopefully I won't get a bunch of angry BS responses.

I do not believe in breeding dogs that are not game or at least from proven stock. I think if someone is going to breed for show they should breed dogs that have sound temperaments, are healthy, have drive and/or working ability, and meet the conformation standard staying as close to that as possible and not buying into fads. This includes the weight range. I do not support any breeder who breeds for profit, color, or size whether it be of the head, chest, bone, muscle, jaw, teeth, or of the dog itself.


OK, here I go.

I think we need to relax a bit when it comes to bashing bully style dogs. First of we have almost no proof that either Gottiline or Razor's Edge dogs are mixed with other breeds. The only proof being that they don't look like APBTs and that your brother's uncle's sister read on the net that a breeder admitted his dogs are mixed.
Both of these lines have AKC blood pretty close up and AmStaffs are already overdone. There is also Gaff blood in there. I've never heard anyone say that Gaff dogs are mixed with other breeds. If you look at Gaff dogs like Bakala, Eddie, Grandy, Molly, Max, Princess Leah, Simba, Pumpkin, Taffy, and even Cool Hand Luke and they're all as bad, or at least close to, Razor's Edge and Gottiline dogs.

If RE and Gotti are mixed with Neos where is the cherry eye and extreme dewlap?


You can't breed a dog like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/Zoom2.jpg

to a dog like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/neamastiff.jpg

and get consistent litters of dogs like this. http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/ghcigc.jpg


You can't breed a dog with little to no lippyness and dewlap to a Neo and get three consistent generations of dogs with little to no lippyness and dewlap.


Posting pictures like this http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gottiwitbulldogwithnames.jpg are just unfair. The picture of Gotti has him sitting, which makes his chest stick out more, and is taken from above which makes him look like he has no legs. The picture of Eddie, the Bulldog, is at eye level and there is no shadowing on his white chest which makes it look smaller and less pronounced. How many of you have seen 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti in person?



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotty_201.jpg

Look at this picture of him. He doesn't look nearly as overdone. Pictures can be deceiving.


A lot of true Old Family Reds are 60-70 pounds and there are dogs like Bumatay's Brutus, who was 90 pounds, and Trussell's Dum Dum who was 85 pounds. These dogs are all game bred. Trussell's Dum Dum had heavy Dibo blood. There are quite a few game bred dogs in the 70-80 pound range as well. Colby's Pinscher, CH Plumber's Alligator, GR CH Evolution Kennel's Machobuck, GR CH Latin Force Kennel's Barracuda, GR CH Shankbone's Lionhead, and GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM are just a few. Not to mention there are plenty of overdone game bred dogs. Some of them are, CH Ljuzda Kennel's Patak, DBL GR CH K. Allen's Tornado, GR CH Coy's B.B. Red, Clouse's Fanny, CH Busenbark's Rattler ROM, CH Clouse's Big Boy, CH Giroux' Booger ROM, CH Tudor's Jeff, CH Watchdog's Big Thor, CH Whitsell's Bloodwork, CH McConnell Revhead Ace of Ace I, CH STP's Tag, CH Mason's Hog, GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM aka GR CH Creed's Iron Dusty ROM, GR CH Southern Kennel's Mayday ROM, Hammond's Dio Duel POR, Hammond's Park Son ROM, Hammond's Rufus ROM, Hemphill's Geronimo, Lonzo's Andy, Lonzo'a Danger, and Lonzo's Muscle. None of them are as bad as Gottiline's Star but Hammond's Park Son ROM had a much bigger head compared to his body than Gotti. So did Armitage's Brandy. Both GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM and CH Clouse's Big Boy were much more massive and overdone than 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti. Does that mean they're English Bulldogs too?


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/GRCHRossRedDevilROM8xw3.jpg
GR CH Ross' Red Devil ROM 8xw




http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/CHClousesBigBoy.jpg

CH Clouse's Big Boy



I think it is ridiculous for people to call Gotti a pure bred English Bulldog. He has been called an AmStaff, APBT, Pit Bull, Neo/Pit, American Bulldog, Bulldog, AmBull/Pit, AmStaff/Neo, and American Bully but none of the people claiming he is one breed or another really know.

Game bred dog owners say that DNA testing doesn't mean anything because it can be faked but almost no game bred dogs out there even have the testing. It is only by someone's word that you have any sort of guarantee the dog is pure.

Looking at 'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti's pedigree it looks entirely possible that he could be from the dogs his pedigree says he's from. No dog in his six generation pedigree looks so drastically different that one would even think that it is not from the sire and dam that are listed. This includes Gotti. He's about the same size as Raider II (sire) and has his head, but with a slightly deeper stop, and his color. Gotti's chest is a bit more prominent than his parent's but not as deep as Calee's (dam). Gotti toes out slightly and has pretty well let down pasterns like both of his parents do. Also Calee (dam) was missing her P1s and so is Gotti. He goes back to AmStaff blood and blue is a common AmStaff color and has been for quite some time now. Why with all the blue AmStaffs in his pedigree would he need Neapolitan Mastiff blood to be that color?

Just some food for thought.



http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesRaiderII.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesRaiderII2.jpg

'PR' Greyline's Raider II (Gotti's sire)











http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotti.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/gotty_201.jpg

'PR' Notorious Juan Gotti












http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood.jpg http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood2.jpg

'PR' Greyline's Calee Love BlueGood (Gotti's dam)






I'm hoping for sensible responses and that everyone won't go crazy because I said the word "blue". Just about every thread started that even mentions the word blue, or is about a blue dog ends up being closed because everyone's got to bash the dogs and the bloodlines even if it was a good thread that had little to do with them. I made my point of view clear in the beginning of this post so it'd be nice if everyone didn't start calling me a puppy peddler and what not.

I will answer the question YES from what I see MUTTS but hey every one has an opinion. And as far as the clouse dogs They were the truth and Ive had some clouse blood (loved it ) largest dog about 45lbs on wt. as far as the bully breed I see trouble for us with game dogs with the media thinking that the bullys are the same. Think about that next time you hear Pit bull bit a kid... J

[Diesel]

I took this very argument to the UKC...
I was kinda shocked at what I was told by thier representatives.

Me:
I have got to ask:

Looking at the dogs being passed off as "pure-bred" APBT these days, when there is obviously other breeds mixed in be it mastiff, bulldog, or whatever. they are CLEARLY not true APBT.

why are they allowed to register as such?

dont you feel it sullies the name of the breed, and as well the registry when they bandog mutts are papered and peddled by morons with no respect for the proper way to do things?

It was brought to my attention on one of the forums that, the registry would have more control over it then anyone. the breeders only care about the money and what will sell.

what do you think about this?

Them:
All of the APBT's registered with UKC have to prove purebred status. This is either through Single Registration in which dogs from ADBA, AKC, Canadian Kennel Club, TKC (in Great Britain), or any FCI affiliated registry are accepted based on that criteria as well as an inspection in which pictures are submitted and reviewed by the Single Registration Committee, or Litter Registration in which case both parents are already UKC registered and therefore pure bred. Obviously there may be people abusing the system but those situations are few and far between. The UKC breed standard does call for a preferred but not specific size but notes that proportion should be more important. There are breeders that breed for size and while that may be a fault in the breed it is not a disqualifying fault and therefore can not and should not determine whether the dog may or may not be accepted for registration. As always, any breeder/owner that is found to be falsifying any paperwork whether it be breed or lineage would face the disciplinary committee and possible revoked/denied registrations.

Me:
Thats is a nice though and its pretty on paper, but take one look at these so called "bully" or "XXL" websites and you can honestly tell me that you believe these dogs are 100% pure bred APBT?

How easy is it to take a dogs registration number and write it on a piece of paper. If I own a male and a female that are both registered with the UKC and I also own a Neapolitan Mastiff. I could breed the neo to the pit and then say they are out of the male pit. it would go completely unnoticed and unchalleneged.
I dont have to provide pics othe pups, or video or anything like that. because I have two UKC numbers its assumed that I wont lie. Paper hangers are all over the place, I have seen a few places that were offering papers for sale.... not dogs just papers.

thats EXACTLY what they are doing. I would incite more control making DNAing dogs a requirment or something. make these people be held accountable to what they are doign to the breed, and the way they are draggin this registries name in the mud.

Them:
If you have proof of a specific situation, we ask that you submit that to us in writing so that we may look into the situation and take appropriate steps. Unfrotunately the fact that a dog is large or "bully" looking is not enough proof for us to take disciplinary action.

Me:
The breeders of the dogs even recognize and admit that these dogs are not the true APBT. They dont refer to them as such within thier ranks they call them american bullys, or some such name. But they point is that they dont have an option to register thier dogs as anything else. What steps need to be taken to request for a breed to be recognized?

if you give them a specific breed name to put these bandogs and mixees and still offer them the ability to have a papertrail and records for thier breeding programs, i think the outlook would be good.

it will definately show more interest on the part of the UKC as far as breed purity and trying to preserve the APBT before it gets completely washed out by the bulldog and mastiff blood in these dogs. they are APBT in name only.... go do some looking around at these bully dog kennels and tell me that you honestly can say there are no other breeds mixed in.

I am all for power of selective breeding, but this is too much way too fast. there is more to the story then most are willing to admit.

Random guy backing the UKC:
I would love to see those with so much to say actually back up their accusations with proof. Until that happens, it will remain hearsay. They call their dogs the American Bullies/Bully because they feel the dog has a different look than the orginal APBT/AST. Which is true, but as far as them mixing with mastiff and/or bulldogs, wouldn't you think they would get taller AND bigger, not shorter and bigger??? You can get what they refer to as an American Bully by selectively breeding the shortest, widest to the shortest widest, for a few generations. Do I like it? Nope. But doesn't mean it can't be done without mixing breeds. But like Carrie said if you feel you have sufficient proof........ but if you don't have said proof then you are basically just voicing your opinion and nothing more. Opinions don't change a dang thing, facts however do.

Me:
LOL!! WOW.. They were right!

I was told that if I tried to bring something like this to the registry I would be met with resistance.

You do know about the breed right?
I am a member of more APBT board then you can imagine and even on the bully dog boards they admit to certain dogs being mixed. Do you want to even discuss the whole eddington- whopper fiasco? that dog is directly descended from a bullmastiff- and that is from the mouth of the man who bred him.

The dogs get shorter because they are being mixed with EBT and english bulldogs not american ones. which is why the trait of short muzzles is becoming more prevalent as well as corkscrew tails... that isnt even a fault for our breed. that is specifically for EBs! plus have you noticed the huge increas in "bully" dogs dying because of the heat? that is a very common side effect for the english bulldog the shorter muzzle keeps them from regulating heat properly and they pass all the time, these bully dogs are doing the same.

if the registry want to be made a laughing stock by turning a blind eye to the obvious (particularly to breeders that deal with the dogs daily) goings on with in the breed that they are choosing to falsley register.

who am I to care.

I am getting out of the APBT for just this reason. the breeds dont have any integrity or loyalty to the dogs, the buyers are breeding with no knowledge or care for the breed, and the registry is being an enabler for them to do it. as long as they send in that money for the litter registration its all good.

Them:
Requesting proof of such situations is not the same of being met with resisitance. We can not just revoke registrations, ect based on the type of information you have provided. If you know of some specific Kennels doing such or specific breeders we would be more than happy to work with you/them on finding out what needs to be done to straighten this situation out. you have to understand that UKC has to come at this from a legal stand point and opinion and heresay is not enough for us to stand on legally. You will always find size and type variations within all breeds and therefore we can not target these dogs/breeders based on somone's opinion. Everyone at UKC is concerned with the purity of each breed that we register but again we have to go at this from a legal stand point and need actual proof of one of these situations before we can do anything to stop it.
Also, as you will notice, no standard names every type tail or anything else for that matter. A brushy tail is not mentioned under the breed standard for the APBT but that does not mean that it would be accepted under the UKC breed standard. If you would like specific changes added to the UKC breed standard such as a corkscrew tail being listed as a disqualification, you would need to contact the National American Pit Bull Terrier Association, the club that governs our Single Registration for this breed. Once they approve any changes/additions to the standard, we would review them here and either offer some compromises or adopt those changes into the existing standard.

To be continued

[Diesel]

Random Guy Again:
It isn't a question of resistance at all. And I know plenty about the breed but thanks for asking. My point is and remains the same, you need proof, accusations just won't cut it for something of this magnitude. You can point fingers all you want, but proof is what it is going to take before anything can or will be done. If you are so certain of this happening then why not do as Carrie has suggested. I know alot of people who care a great deal about the breed, breedings that are done etc. I try to more or less get along with everyone, that allows me to speak on what I have learned, what I know and share any future info that I learn as well. People are more inclined to listen when it comes in a cordial manner, not always but most of the time.

Again if you are so certain of the mixing going on please do as Carrie stated.

Me:
the way the system is set up its perfect for them to do whatever they want. there is NO WAY to prove it on the back end... and they know, and revel in that fact.

because one the breeding is done all they have to do is take the dogs back to a registered dog and even DNAing the dogs wont raise a flag.

its sad in a way.

I understand that in order for you to do anything you need proof, and knowing that they own both breeds is not proof, knowing that they talk about the APBT and how they breed for "personal preference" does not matter.

but i always thought that preserving the breed was at the forefront of a registries duties. to enforce the breed standard and to register and work with the best of the best. every tom, dick, and harry with two dogs is starting a kennel and breeding for all the wrong reasons... standard be ****ed. and its okay?

there should be some mandatory titles or something before a litter can be registered. make sure that these dogs are up to snuff so to speak. if the dogs are nothing more then numbers on paper, they can be and look like anything and be out there representing your registry and the breed.

too many people are putting ther own little twist on the dogs they are putting out. I think its gone too far. and needs special restrictions. I can understand that there are deviations within the breed, but when we selectively breed for those deviations we are doing a great disservice to the breed as a whole.

not to mention the name on the pedigree that says this dog is a valid representative for the breed.

Them:
Something you need to understand with all registries, not just UKC is that a portion of them are based on the honor system. That is why if proof is provided of somone falsifying paperwork they will be dealt with accordingly. If you can provide proof of such a situation then it will be dealt with. Proof is needed because no specific kennel/breeder/situation has been named so there is not even a place to start at this point. We most certainly can not start an investigation on every APBT ever registered with UKC based on the information you have given us. DNA results are not sophisticated enough to determine breed only direct parentage. Our system as well as every other registry is not perfect. But that is why there are rules and should they be broken, and proof provided of such, disciplinary action is taken. You have said before that these issues that you feel are taking place within the breed are the reason you are getting out of it. If you feel that strongly then that may be for the best. If you would like to provide specific proof of these situations and specific instances, in writing to our disciplinary committee, we will be more than happy to work with you on it. But until then our hands are unfortunately legally tied.

I feel at this time I must close this thread as you have been given the steps you need to take in order to help us look into this situation for you with more detail. If you have any further information please submit it to us in writing to the attention of the disciplinary committee so that we can get this information on record and do our best to help get any problems resolved.

I must mention that I can not help but notice the similarities between this thread and another that was on our Dog Events Forum

Me:
I dont know about the other forum, I acutally didnt even know you had a forum here before yesterday. I was on the site looking at the other breeds that you registered and saw the link.

I take solice in knowing that at least one other person agrees with me though.

as I said I understand what you are saying but at the same time it doesnt change the state of the breeding world as it pertains to the APBT.

your handsa are tied legally and I can relate to that it sucks to see it and not be able to stop it, but pretending that its not going on, or saying in effect that these dogs are not a result of mixing is irritating.

Say that you cant address it without viable proof, but dont say its not happneing.

Kinda surprising... Not really, that the UKC believes that breeding the dogs natururally could present with the individuals we are seeing now. Even when I got a little nasty it was still a burden of proof issue and there was nothing that they would do based on looks.

hmmmmmm....

[Diesel]

Incidentally ANY dog can bite a kid if not properly socialized... There have been a good few manbiters that were gamebred too.

DOnt get it twisted, breeding your dog based on being proven doesnt mean it wont bite a person. That has a lot to do with how they are raised (I cant believe I just said that, LOL)

[miakoda]

a thing to mention with the EBT gotty comparison pic is you get no sense of size. Gotty is a big tall dog, 21" at the shoulder... there is now way that EBT is more thn 17 maybe 18". its just a picture.Ok, my OEB is tall. He looks more like Gotty than an APBT does. So does that help?

EDIT: This crap is getting old. If I wanted to discuss puppy peddlers who breed crappy dogs & produce over 200 pups a year, then I would head to their crappy message boards. If you want to jump on the big, blue, bred for size & crappy temperament dogs, go do so......somewhere else. This board is getting to be like the never ending cur joke.

Also, for whomever said these dogs don't bite more often, check your resources again. I collect every single article I can on pit bull attacks & supposed pit bull attacks & the majority of the dogs range in weight from 80lbs to 130lbs & most are blue with red coming in second. See a trend anywheres?

And props to the ABKC, but they're still sending out a crappy picutre: dogs on heavy chains with Mr. G Thug wearing heavy gold chains himself standing next to half naked women (almost porn) with their dogs wearing either chains or huge spiked collars.........Gee, I'm sure the public feels much better now about that representation. And don't kid yourself, these people still call their dogs "pit bulls" because reputation & ego mean more to them than the living, breathing fashion accessory suffering down at their feet.

[simms]

Ok, my OEB is tall. He looks more like Gotty than an APBT does. So does that help?

EDIT: This crap is getting old. If I wanted to discuss puppy peddlers who breed crappy dogs & produce over 200 pups a year, then I would head to their crappy message boards. If you want to jump on the big, blue, bred for size & crappy temperament dogs, go do so......somewhere else. This board is getting to be like the never ending cur joke.

Also, for whomever said these dogs don't bite more often, check your resources again. I collect every single article I can on pit bull attacks & supposed pit bull attacks & the majority of the dogs range in weight from 80lbs to 130lbs & most are blue with red coming in second. See a trend anywheres?

And props to the ABKC, but they're still sending out a crappy picutre: dogs on heavy chains with Mr. G Thug wearing heavy gold chains himself standing next to half naked women (almost porn) with their dogs wearing either chains or huge spiked collars.........Gee, I'm sure the public feels much better now about that representation. And don't kid yourself, these people still call their dogs "pit bulls" because reputation & ego mean more to them than the living, breathing fashion accessory suffering down at their feet.



Also, for whomever said these dogs don't bite more often, check your resources again. I collect every single article I can on pit bull attacks & supposed pit bull attacks & the majority of the dogs range in weight from 80lbs to 130lbs & most are blue with red coming in second. See a trend anywheres?

Mia,

I couldnt agree more....esp with this lil tid bit ^

[miakoda]

http://www.aspenrare.com/Deoblostance.jpg

Diesel, this dog looks like your dog

& this one:
http://hometown.aol.com/bamsbandogges/images/hammerside1.jpg

Ironic, since they are 2nd & 3rd generation Bandogs.:rolleyes:

[14rock]

This board is getting to be like the never ending cur joke.Agreed............

[PitBull_30]

There IS no other point of view. AM Staffs don't look like that. Pit bulls don't look like that. EB's don't look like that. But a mix of the afore mentioned DO look like that. Some RE dogs are pretty decent looking dogs, I wouldn't say they are ALL mixes but there is too many iffy looking dogs to believe the peds on any of them. JMO

There are plenty of iffy looking dogs out there sure. Look at Castle King's Stump or Gottiline's Back Yard Boogie for prime examples. I just don't think people should say/claim things like they are the truth when they are just speculation.

[PitBull_30]

Truth be told i don't think we will ever truly know what Gotti or any of those type of dogs really are.
EXACTLY! That's what the whole big, long post was about! I never said he was pure Pit because no one knows. I just said people need to have proof and know what they're talking about before they talk. Half the game dog people on here have probably never even looked at his pedigree or done any research before they started calling him a mutt.

[Diesel]

http://www.aspenrare.com/Deoblostance.jpg

Diesel, this dog looks like your dog

& this one:
http://hometown.aol.com/bamsbandogges/images/hammerside1.jpg

Ironic, since they are 2nd & 3rd generation Bandogs.:rolleyes:whats your point? No one is saying thats its not possible to get dogs like mine by mixing (no sh## SHerlock), the point being made is that you dont HAVE to cross breeds to get it done.

Here is another Bandog and its small about 65-70 LBS... it looks more like on of the dogs I would see get posted here that would get positive feedback on
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6559/crim0065rs4.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1341/1407061841hp6.jpg
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/7408/crim0030aq5.jpg

You cant just look at a dog and say "its a mutt" or "its purebred", because you can never tell.

By the way that dog is an example of a "titan terrier" its a bandog that is a mixture of APBT, Bull Terrier, and Patterdale.

[PitBull_30]

I think a lot of people dont like it due to People are buying that B.S.I my self have GAME dogs (yes I said it) and breed ONLY GAME dogs But if you or any one wants that fine . I just dont like it when some one mistakes a HA bully with the type of dogs I have. YIS J

I would never buy a bully.

[PitBull_30]

I BELIEVE GOTTI HIMSELF TO BE MOSTLY AMSTAFF. CALLE LOVE, HOWEVER, I BELIEVE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF DOGGE DE BORDEAUX/EB IN HER.....IN TURN....GIVING GOTTI SOME. I DIDN'T REALLY SEE IT UNTIL SOMEONE CLOSE TO MR. BARAJAS SAID SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND I THINK ITS DEFINITELY POSSIBLE. LOOK....GOTTI IS NOT THAT BAD LOOKING OF A DOG, BUT WITH EACH "GOTTI-LINE" BREEDING THAT FOLLOWS...THE DOGS GET WORSE AND WORSE AND WORSE. THIS IS EITHER COMING FROM PEOPLE MIXING SHIT IN AFTER GOTTI....OR THE LINE-BREEDING ON GOTTI IS BRINGING FORTH THE TRAITS OF OTHER BREEDS MIXED INTO HIM. SO WHICH ONE IS IT. YOU CANNOT LOOK AT 'BOOGIE' AND TELL ME HE IS PURE APBT OR EVEN AMSTAFF. HERE'S A PIC OF BOOGIE FOR THOSE WHO DONT KNOW HIM.

PS: BOOGIE IS A SON OF 'MONSTER'....THE MOST FAMOUS SON OF GOTTI.
I never said Back Yard Boogie was pure. Heck, Boogie's more stocky and overdone than the average EB! I just don't people should say that something is certain when they don't know.

Here is some more pics of 'PR' Greyline's Calee Love BlueGood.


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/PRGreylinesCaleeLoveBlueGood2.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/sfgsgsd.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/hgvkujv.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/1nw_caleehead.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/1nw_caleeandpup.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/1nw_calee_work.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/1nw_calee_jinx.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/1nw_calee5.jpg


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/1nw_calee.jpg


This is a Dogue de Bordeaux. Obviously.


http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l193/AmericanGameDog/P1010002.jpg

[sthsidemonsters]

read my post on rocking out to find out how I feel about this..

[PitBull_30]

I hate that people say they have "drive"...wtf is that?....he can work a spring pole.....whoopy do....he can catch a hog....whooo hooo....
I said IF PEOPLE ARE BREEDING SHOW DOGS. They'd need it for schutzund, french ring, weight pull, spring pole, ect. If they are breeding for the show ring then they aren't breeding game dogs. You're comparing apples to oranges... or at least Granny Smith to Gala.

[miakoda]

My true feelings on this topic (other than go join a mutt board to further discuss it):

http://www.pitbulltalk.com/images/smiles/puke.gif (javascript:emoticon(':puke:'))

[jeeperino]

Denial is more than a river in Egypt. The big and bully owners are like an abused wife who justifys to herself and others why she deserved the abuse.


Bottom line is.....APBT's are warriors that have one trait others dont....gameness. If you breed away from this you are doing the entire breed an injustice. Turning a masterpiece into garbage. Why would anyone want to deface a Piccaso?? Thats what the short, wide, and bully people have done. Taken art and turned it into worthless garbage.



YFIS

[MR BIGGS]

If you ask me any thread opened on this topic should be closed upon it being posted with a automated valid response. Something to the sort of these dogs trying to be like APBTs' but have no place amongst them and now they're trying to place them among American Bulldogs(American Bullys).

Sidenote: call them "American Notorious Sizers" since they want a cool name but can't think of one.

[MR BIGGS]

Oh yeah I forgot to add: No matter how muscular the dog is, it can not and will not outperform an APBT. Like someone said, that's trying to compare Bruce Lee to a Bodybuilder.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/sdbhonest/brucelee.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/sdbhonest/bodybuilder.jpg


More weight to throw around gets'em tired quicker at anything they do for example sex:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD7WAdXAACo</EMBED>

[semo]

I wouldnt own one .



also just a question. Did you bother getting permission to use the pictures of dogs such as zoom etc?

[PitBull_30]

Really? Run a search for bandogges, even first generation crosses usually come out looking more like a "pitbull" than these "bullies".


I don't have to search on the net. I've trained, owned, and worked 15 to 20 of them. Some of the earlier generations look like pits and some look like the mastiff side. After all they're generally 50/50 so it only makes sense that they'd look like both breeds. The pure Swinford line started in the mid to late 60s and had not introduced any outside blood since since a pit from Turkey in 1976. They probably will have to soon though because there is too much inbreeding going on. To me, that is a ABM not any mastiff type dog you stick to a bully type dog. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generations are no where near consistant either.




Are you really trying to argue there are no striking similarities there, and its all just a picture thing? One is a pure OEB, one is supposedly a pure APBT. Why doesnt it strike you as odd they look like they could of very easily been littermates!

Uh, they don't look at all like littermates to me. I'm not saying there aren't similarities. There are quite a few similarities. Game bred pits also have similarities to MANY breeds but it doesn't mean people should go around saying they are a different breed like it is fact when really they are just assuming.




If these are bad pictures of him, they are still the ones taken by nuthuggers to exaggerate his size/structure or whatever! Either way, it boils down to bad breeding ethics.

I TOTALLY agree there! I never said they had good breeding ethics.




I dont know the exact weights of the older dogs without looking them up, but some of the recent ones you posted come no where near 70-80 lbs. Macho for example is a 51 lber. so I dont know where your getting this....


Macho weighed at 71.3 pounds just before he started his keep for his third match. I'm not going to use these dogs pit weights because obviously Gotti is no where near that condition.

[PitBull_30]

I also just a question. Did you bother getting permission to use the pictures of dogs such as zoom etc?
Yes, I got permission for Zoom, Calee, Raider, and some of the Gotti pics. I asked almost a week ago and than after I got a reply I found another Gotti pic. I used that one without asking because he said he didn't care if I used the others.

[PitBull_30]

"You have balls. I like balls."

--Terrorist from Team America

************

If the argument is being presented that dogs like Gotty are purebred AmStaffs or APBTs or whichever, I can believe that. Mutants can pop out of any litter, and if you start breeding selectively for that, that's what you'll keep getting. You wouldn't necessarily have to cross in any other breed, just keep breeding ugly to ugly and pretty soon you'll get a face that would make even a mother scream.

Can't really excuse the breeding of man-biting horrendous curs -- and I don't think you're trying to do that -- so I can wrap my head around the gist of what you're trying to say.


THANK YOU!!!



That's all I was saying. Thank God, an intelligent answer! As I said in my little "disclaimer" I do not support the breeding of bully style dogs. I think any pit APBT, AmStaff, SBT, AmBull, Dogo, or any other bullyish breed with an aggressive temperament deviating away from their standard needs to be pts. That means game bred, bully style, show, or BYB dogs.

[PitBull_30]

as to what people think of red devil and butcher boy, they don't have the look that i like , but correct me if i'm wrong , but red devil was a 8xw and butcher boy a 4xw. that's why they are'nt no good curs!


I'm just saying just because they are very overdone does not mean they are English Bulldog mixes.

[miakoda]

This thread is closed. There is NO point to this thread. These dogs are NOT APBTs & never will be. That's a fact that cannot be argued so quit trying. Poorly bred AmStaffs maybe, but the AmStaff people will kick your ass for trying to pass 100+lb Gotti off as one of "theirs". He's nothing more than an extension for someone's penis.