Needed: no nonsense advice

[LuvinBullies]

As some of you know- I have a 12 year old pit and a 1 1/2 year old pit, an AKC German Shepherd, and a Great Dane rescue. A very unfortunate incident just happened in my yard, and I am afraid the only feasible end result will be to have my GSD euthanised.
Athena (GSD) was sort of a charity purchase two years ago. She was kept in a undersized crate with her litter mate in the back of a petstore where I worked. She was the pick of the litter hands down, but for some reason the litter did not sell, so when they got too big they were banished to the back. My husband had always wanted a GSD, and I told him about her, so we got a hell of a deal on a 5 month old GSD who had to be taught how to walk, run, climb stairs, etc. because all she knew was the crate. Horrible, eh?
She has done well with us, although timid with controlled stranger aggression. (By controlled I mean she would get low on her haunches and growl at a stranger, but immediately go up to them and sniff and lick once she was called down.)
She's been wonderful around my 1 year old, but I wouldn't say she dotes upon him. She has shown increasingly aggressive jealousy issues with the other dogs, and does not hesitate to snap at one of them if they get too close when I pet her.
My 12 year old female pit (Natas) has always shown her dominance over Athena (mounting her, etc., always let her know she was queen around here), but Natas is getting older and today out of jeaousy in the backyard right in front of me, Athena snapped and tried to kill her. She would not be called down. Dante, my other pit bull, thought it was playtime and jumped in the fight- but immediately ceased when I yelled at him. Ranger, the Dane stayed out of it completely,albeit barking his head off. Athena lost all ability to focus on anything but killing her, and her face and ears are pretty shredded. The only way the whole thing ended was because I was grabbing and twisting Athena's collar so hard she lost her grip and Natas was able to get away from her. I had to use all my strength to drag Athena into the house, and if she had gotten away from me she would have gone right back to Natas, who by this time was lying down about 20 feet away.
All my dogs are spayed and neutered, but I truly feel if I didn't have the strength and knowledge from horse breaking and training...I was in danger as well. 4 large dogs are not easy to control in a situation like that- and even under such close supervision I almost couldn't save my dog. If my male dogs weren't so well behaved and really wanted to get involved, I would have been lucky to get out of that situation okay myself, let alone save Natas.
My conclusion is this incident is merely a sign of worse things to come, and she is the only one of the dogs with this kind of unstable temperament. There is a German shepherd training facility in Valdosta, so I will call them to get their opinion- she might make a good dog out of a family situation as a worker, but I feel I should tell them exactly what happened. As a dog rescuer I consider her unadoptable. Advice, other options I may be overlooking, opinions...please.

[tommy3]

You have dogs running around with each other and you freak out when there is a fight? It was bound to happen sooner or later. There is nothing wrong with the dog. It was just doing what dogs do.
Here is some no nonsense advice; Don't let your dogs run around and play with each other if you are concerned that you may not be able to handle the situation. Be more responsible. The dog isn't the one to blame.

It seems that this scuffle has caused concern for you. It shouldn't.
You should have been concerned about the human aggression and it should have been dealt with long ago. I don't understand how a dog fight has triggered your concern when it has obvious real problems (human aggression) that you have known about for a while.
The dog aggression is not a sign for things to come. The human aggression is a sign for things to come.
Don't worry about the scuffle, it was bound to happen. Just make sure it doesn't happen again. Worry about what is really important.

[maryellen1]

GSD's are aloof and not lovey dovey.. if her temperment is questionable around strangers no rescue will take her.. if her temperment is due and to lack of socialization, you could try to socialize her more. if her temperment is due to genetics, i would say euth her. if you cant adopt her out 100% with your head knowing she wont snap at someone then euth her. its better then being adopted out and then biting someone badly.

also, NEVER allow any of your dogs to mount each other. its a dominance issue, and will result in fights.. i have 3 dominant dogs at my house, and if anyone tries to mount the other one they get a Come to Jesus moment from me, as i dont tolerate mounting at all ever..

DA is ok for GSD's ,,its rare, but its there. my female wants to kill any adult dog she sees. she has no qualms about ignoring my commands to back off, and goes into a frenzy when in a dog fight with strange dogs
being jealous around other dogs is my gsd as well.. you have to learn to manage it.

i would have a qualified behaviorist who knows GSD's come in and evaluate her. and in the meantime keep both dogs separated, and also check out your gsd's thryoid too, a sudden change in behavior can be thyroid issues, have the 4 panels done, not just one. there are 4 thyroid tests that have to be done to be acccurate..


also, dont let all 4 out at once, do 2 dogs at once, less chance for a fight with less dogs outside, and easier for you to break up if a fight breaks out.

plus, females will always fight more then males. thats why i will never have a 2 female household.
if she has no medical issues, and the behaviorist says she is unstable to adopt out, then euth her.

[laurajean]

Oh, from hanging out on pit bull forums I have heard many horror stories of people who let their dogs get together and then in breaking up the fight having to go to the hospital themselves and ending up with two dead dogs...
Mary Ellen, you gave the best advice. No matter how many times people get told, they think that their dogs won't fight each other. Yeah, well now you know they will.
The warning signs were all there. I am sorry that you had this experience. Luvingbullies. I am glad I don't have to make your decisions or pay your bills.
I hope other people with multiple dog households will consider how they are handling their dogs.
All I can say is good luck. You have my sympathy.
I hope you will let us know what you decide to do.

[14rock]

Crate and rotate, or get rid of the dogs you cant properly care for. This is something you should of expected from day one, as I always say- be thankful everyday there isnt an accident, but know one can happen at any time, 5 weelss old, or 15 years old. I wouldnt even suggest letting two dogs out at one time, its difficult to break up two dogs going at it without knowledge of what to do, and a little bit of patience and luck. Not to mention, without a breaking stick, your basically s.o.l., I wouldnt plan on choking a dog off working ever again, thats a freak occurance your dog actually let go simply from that, and your doing more damage breaking a fight up that way then letting them tire out and breaking them with a stick. I'd utilize some chain setups out back, keep 3 dogs out, and 1 in the house for a week. The next week, a new dog comes in, etc etc. This will limit the number of fights, the time it takes to end a fight (its much easier if one dog is being restrained by a chain or cable), and each dog will still get ample house time. I hate hearing stories like this, its so unfortunate a pet had to suffer because people think "it wont happen to me, I havent "trained" my dogs to fight". Well,as your finding out, if you own a fighting breed, you own a dog BRED to fight,and you always have to expect it. "Never trust a pitbull not to fight!". Obviously, with "packs" of dogs,the chances of fights simply multiply by as many additional dogs as you are throwing into the mix.

[maryellen1]

thanks laurajean:)

[Luke.UK]

I think talk of euth-ing is a bit harsh/early yet.GSD can be a little wild at times,it is to be expected.As stated this dog had a poor start,that wont have helped.At 2 yrs old there is still lots can be done,GSD are very intelligent,guide,police dogs are only just starting there work training so there is hope yet.Try to get her some serious training and take her back to square 1 socailizing.As posted keep the dogs apart somtimes you know,some dogs just can`t stand the sight of each other.Also i`d stop the mounting that could be winding her up?It may be an idea to jump on a GSD forum and see if they`ve any answers.If rescue is a non runner,why not try the police or a guide dog,i trully hope you can find a solution,take care.

Good luck!

[maryellen1]

guide dogs can not have a weak temperment, as they are out and about with their owners. the police will not take a weak gsd either, they want a solid 100% sound temperment, with no issues.

i agree, a gsd forum would help you out alot..

[cheekymunkee]

GSD's are aloof and not lovey dovey.. if her temperment is questionable around strangers no rescue will take her.. if her temperment is due and to lack of socialization, you could try to socialize her more. if her temperment is due to genetics, i would say euth her. if you cant adopt her out 100% with your head knowing she wont snap at someone then euth her. its better then being adopted out and then biting someone badly.

also, NEVER allow any of your dogs to mount each other. its a dominance issue, and will result in fights.. i have 3 dominant dogs at my house, and if anyone tries to mount the other one they get a Come to Jesus moment from me, as i dont tolerate mounting at all ever..

DA is ok for GSD's ,,its rare, but its there. my female wants to kill any adult dog she sees. she has no qualms about ignoring my commands to back off, and goes into a frenzy when in a dog fight with strange dogs
being jealous around other dogs is my gsd as well.. you have to learn to manage it.

i would have a qualified behaviorist who knows GSD's come in and evaluate her. and in the meantime keep both dogs separated, and also check out your gsd's thryoid too, a sudden change in behavior can be thyroid issues, have the 4 panels done, not just one. there are 4 thyroid tests that have to be done to be acccurate..


also, dont let all 4 out at once, do 2 dogs at once, less chance for a fight with less dogs outside, and easier for you to break up if a fight breaks out.

plus, females will always fight more then males. thats why i will never have a 2 female household.
if she has no medical issues, and the behaviorist says she is unstable to adopt out, then euth her.
WONDERFUL advice!! Dog agression is NO reason for your dog to die. It really shocks me that a pit bull owner would even THINK of it. Seperate your dogs & all will be able to live happily ever after........it works in my house as I have two dogs that hate the site of each other. It's ok for dogs not to get along.

[440rider]

You are lucky your bulldog turned tail...it's very difficult to seperate 2 urestrained willing animals alone. You have a pack of dogs and this dog was trying to establish some sort of new order. This situation revolves around you becoming the pack leader and not allowing any dominance beyond your own to be displayed. (Your bulldog should have never been allowed to mount the others etc. etc.) Seperate your animals if you can't handle them!

[Pitbull219]

My mother in law had a GSD that was very dog aggressive. She didn't think much of that as it wasn't with her poodle, or Yorkies. She was more concerned with her shyness and submissive urination. She had a friend who trains dogs for the Sherrif's department train and so some work with her, and he warned her about the dog's temperament. Then one day it happened, out of nowhere she snapped at the poodle and literally ripped her in half! And it only took about a couple seconds that they dogs were together, she had been segregated from the others for a few weeks at that point. She was put down that day. That's all it takes, a couple seconds. If you keep this dog, she will have to be separated every moment. I would not get rid of her and make her someone else's problem. I would either have her put down, or deal with her the way she is.....and considering she has shown warning signs of human aggression, the choice for me would be obvious. Now, as far as everyone here saying multiple dog homes are bad ideas, I happen to disagree. I have 4 female Pits, without serious incident. I know something can happen, and I know how to handle it. My puppies are starting to test the other dogs, and I am nipping it in the bud. They are not left together unsupervised. I run my household in kind of the same way that Caeser Milan guy runs his pack (just for the record, I've been doing it simnce long before I ever heard of him, lol). My dogs all know their place in the pecking order, and know stepping out of line has serious consequences. I think anyone with understanding of dog psychology, and confidence can do it.....albeit it's much harder to accomplish with this breed. Just my two cents.....

[SAM_I_AM]

You have dogs running around with each other and you freak out when there is a fight? It was bound to happen sooner or later. There is nothing wrong with the dog. It was just doing what dogs do.
Here is some no nonsense advice; Don't let your dogs run around and play with each other if you are concerned that you may not be able to handle the situation. Be more responsible. The dog isn't the one to blame.

It seems that this scuffle has caused concern for you. It shouldn't.
You should have been concerned about the human aggression and it should have been dealt with long ago. I don't understand how a dog fight has triggered your concern when it has obvious real problems (human aggression) that you have known about for a while.
The dog aggression is not a sign for things to come. The human aggression is a sign for things to come.
Don't worry about the scuffle, it was bound to happen. Just make sure it doesn't happen again. Worry about what is really important.
Sounds like me and tommy are the only ones on the same page here..... Human Aggression is the problem here.... your kid could be next.....

[purplepig]

Well, I am very sorry for your situation. In your post I could feel how you are feeling, so I am sorry Loving Bullies. Never the less, the advice given is very sound from the start, you went into this with hoping to have a dream situation. What I mean is this, I'd love to be able to let all of my dogs run and play together, but if I did, and for some strange reason they got along for, let's say a week, month,even a year, the day WILL come when IT will happen. And I woudl consider myself very lucky and count my blessings that it ended the way you described, because that is what it was, Luck. I shudder to think about what would happen if four of my dogs were in the back yard off the chain and a fight errupted, by myself. I just dont want to be in that situation, and you were there with two pit bulls, and two dogs who are easily human aggressive. That means that in the midst of the fight, it would not be against the other two(great dane and germshep.) to bite me.

In my back yard(I have 4 seperate fenced in areas, pens, and chain area), I have 4 young(4months-10 weeks) pups running loose. I went back there today and looking over the dogs have come to the conclusion that they will have to be seperated, as they are going at it. I had one male that all the pups hated, so I removed him(A 3 m.old female drawing blood from a strong chest hold) and thought the issue was good for alittle while, but now I will go out in a minute and make chain runs for at least two more today as well, maybe three, as I can leave one in the back.
Unfortunately Mary Poppins died and the fairytell, wishing how things were, will pay dearly in this situation.

I do hope and pray that you will not get offended from what others have posted here, but that you will see that everyone is saying the same thing, and heed the advise...seperate and secure the dogs before something worse happens,especially now, cause it is on from here on out. You will never get the poop back in the dog. ( I wont even touch the thing about how this dog is acting around your child.)

Best wishes
J

[ghost 1]

all shes doing is trying to become the alpha female,,, it will probroly get worst,,, need to separate those 2 only,,, because athea is coming into her own,,,,, this is what they were breed to do,,,,but i'de be careful,,a year ago i got between 2 of my female and got bit,,, strickly my fault and knew better,,,,had pits 20 yeaRS BUT ,,,I underestimated they're strenght and she never realize that she bit me till it was to late then she just quit when she realized she haad me,,,,but the shear aggression is why i have 5 females and now 2 males but one male is a rescue

[LuvinBullies]

Okay- I guess I failed to thoroughly paint the picture, and judging from some of the comments I guess my post came across in a way which left reason to believe I don't know what I am doing.

First of all- this is not the first dogfight I have ever had to break up in my life, and the absolute last thing I did was "freak out." I did not "allow" the older dog to exert dominance by "humping", she was always immediately called down and disciplined. I simply observed the attempted behavior and used it as a reference.
For a long time (which I thought I said), I have been observing the GSD's behavior, and her timidness was the first red flag-so we heightened her socialization, and she has made improvements. Her stranger aggression was making wonderful improvements as well, due to this increased socialization. However, as her socialization with humans has been improving, she has been becoming more aggressive with the other dogs- which of course is obvious she is trying to establish a pecking order. We allow the dogs to play together under our watch (separating them completely is ridiculous in the same home- they are bound to cross paths and the separation would aggravate the issue), but then we rotate them when they are out alone.
This was not a dog fight, per se. Athena was trying to erase Natas from the pecking order completely.
CB- thank you for your helpful post and I agree, I should have gotten a breaking stick a long time ago. Here is my biggest fault, and I willingly accept that. I did the only thing available at the time, which I am aware was radical and not ideal.
My opinion, is combined with her unstable history and newfound desire to exert dominance in any way she can, my only option is to euth her, which I stated in my post. I am more than aware that my child could be next. That's why I came to this decision.
However, before I followed through with it, I thought to post here what had happened and get opinions from people who may know of another option.
I was not planning on "dumping her on someone else and making her their problem". Read my post again. In it I clearly stated I feel she is unadoptable, and I also stated I planned to tell any potential facility that thought they could take her EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

Tommy3- please don't make light of this situation by calling it a "scuffle" or making generalizations about me. Your post was really condescending and didn't help me out at all, it only made me feel worse about a very sad situation. My beloved senior dog is hurt, and I know in my gut I need to euthanize another dog I also love very much and have been trying to help. Her progress has elated me, but what happened today has erased all of it. I know I failed her. Thank you for pointing it out in such a way to make me feel ten times worse when I am already down. I know you are a moderator and I respect you and your knowledge- but was your intention to help me or make me feel rotten?

To those who are genuinely trying to help- thank you very much.

[cheekymunkee]

separating them completely is ridiculous in the same home- they are bound to cross paths and the separation would aggravate the issue),

How is it ridicoulus? PLENTY of people do it every single day. I do it and have done it consistantly for 3 years. My dogs crossed paths ONCE and only once. Never again. Seperation does not aggravate the issue, it makes it a NON issue.

[LuvinBullies]

separating them completely is ridiculous in the same home- they are bound to cross paths and the separation would aggravate the issue),

How is it ridicoulus? PLENTY of people do it every single day. I do it and have done it consistantly for 3 years. My dogs crossed paths ONCE and only once. Never again. Seperation does not aggravate the issue, it makes it a NON issue.My fault, bad wording. In MY home, separating all the dogs all the time is completely ridiculous and impossible. Not ridiculous at all if it can be done. Here, If they stay separated all the time, then a human error occurs and they cross paths, the chance of a fight then and there is by far increased. That's what I meant to say, and I apologise. This has not been a good day at all.

[cheekymunkee]

I do understand & thanks for explaining what you meant. I hope you can find the solution for your situation.

[440rider]

luvvinbullies, I reread your post a few times and what was this dogs unstable history? Was it the aggression towards strangers..do you feel this dog is a risk to humans, it that why u want to put it down? By all means your animal do what you please. We keep all of our dogs seperated and I know many that have yards full of seperated dogs and also rotate dogs. If it was your bulldog going after the GSD would you put it down? We had shepards growing up... they are very protective and loyal, we had one go through the storm door after the mailman at one time as he approached the home...those dogs are bred for specific traits and culled for unwanted as well. Place the dog with a single owner or with someone with no pets, hell police k9 unit may want it. Allowing dogs to run free like that is rediculous IMO especially if like you said it's not the first fight to deal with.


Do ya'll believe dog aggression is a stepping stone to human aggression?

[ghost 1]

You have dogs running around with each other and you freak out when there is a fight? It was bound to happen sooner or later. There is nothing wrong with the dog. It was just doing what dogs do.
Here is some no nonsense advice; Don't let your dogs run around and play with each other if you are concerned that you may not be able to handle the situation. Be more responsible. The dog isn't the one to blame.

It seems that this scuffle has caused concern for you. It shouldn't.
You should have been concerned about the human aggression and it should have been dealt with long ago. I don't understand how a dog fight has triggered your concern when it has obvious real problems (human aggression) that you have known about for a while.
The dog aggression is not a sign for things to come. The human aggression is a sign for things to come.
Don't worry about the scuffle, it was bound to happen. Just make sure it doesn't happen again. Worry about what is really important.
i have human aggresive pit bulls,,, trained to do so after dark,,,,what wrong with that,,,,, i can't help i don't like rot's or mastiffs,,,pits were breed to fight but,,, can be trained to do a varity of things,,, human aggression isn't a concern as long as your in control of the situation,,,i'de rather have a dog that will protect me when i'm not lookin ,,, rather than help them robb me blind

[440rider]

i have human aggresive pit bulls,,, trained to do so after dark

how do you train them to do so after dark?

[Miss Conduct]

Here, If they stay separated all the time, then a human error occurs and they cross paths, the chance of a fight then and there is by far increased. .
I have to comp. disagree with this statement. Keeping all of the dogs together by FAR ups the odds that they will get into another scrap.
Yes, its possible for an accident to occur, but if you are responsible and careful (i am not accusing you of being irresponsible here) then your chances are next to none.

One- if they are crated, KEEP THE CRATES AWAY FROM EACH OTHER! I have came home to a dog that had eaten out of her crate... that wasnt fun. If there are multiple members in the household, let them know when you are taking a specific dog out, so they dont let another out in a different section of your house.

If you make a "schedule", then you should be just fine, For Example- "Rufus" gets to come out from 5 pm to 8 pm for exercise/feed and "Fido" gets to come out for exercise/feed from 8pm - 11pm... etc etc.
The dog has dont nothing wrong here (EXCEPT for the human aggression - which i personally wouldnt deal with, but thats just me).

[ghost 1]

how do you train them to do so after dark?

they'll love you to death till the sun goes down,,,, i got one if she can't see you,,,she ready to throw down,,,,, and at the 2 times i've was robbed in a year,,,so be it,,,, next time they'll be here so i can shoot there @ss dead when i catch them,,,,,alot of work to train one to be that way,,,, workin with them dayly,,, and ,, i took a picture in the gallery where one started to snarl cuz she couldn,t see me and i was'nt speaking,,,, if she hears us talking and reconizes who we are she won't give a peep but if we sneak up or she can't see then it's on

[Miss Conduct]

i have human aggresive pit bulls,,, trained to do so after dark,,,,what wrong with that,,,,, i can't help i don't like rot's or mastiffs,,,pits were breed to fight but,,, can be trained to do a varity of things,,, human aggression isn't a concern as long as your in control of the situation,,,i'de rather have a dog that will protect me when i'm not lookin ,,, rather than help them robb me blind

I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WANT YOUR YARD PROTECTED, BUT FOR HELLS SAKE GET A DOG THAT WAS BRED TO BE HUMAN AGGRESSIVE~!~! WHAT IF BY CHANCE A CHILD WANDER'D INTO YOUR YARD?
I KNOW WITH MY DOGS THE WORST THING I WOULD HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IS THE CHILD MAYBE GETTING KNOCKED OVER FROM A HYPER DOG. OR WHAT IF THE DOG GOT OFF HIS CHAIN?? HELLO HEADLINE.
HUMAN AGGRESSION IS SOMETHING I WILLNOT EVER TOLERATE IN BULLDOGS.

IF I GET A YARD BEAST (AKA YARD GUARD) IT WILL LOOK NOTHING LIKE A BULLDOG SO IT WONT EVER GET "CONFUSED" FOR ONE. I WOULD BUY A RABID BORDER COLLIE FOR A YARD GUARD!! LMFAO

JUST MY 2 CENTS

[ghost 1]

I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WANT YOUR YARD PROTECTED, BUT FOR HELLS SAKE GET A DOG THAT WAS BRED TO BE HUMAN AGGRESSIVE~!~! WHAT IF BY CHANCE A CHILD WANDER'D INTO YOUR YARD?
I KNOW WITH MY DOGS THE WORST THING I WOULD HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IS THE CHILD MAYBE GETTING KNOCKED OVER FROM A HYPER DOG. OR WHAT IF THE DOG GOT OFF HIS CHAIN?? HELLO HEADLINE.
HUMAN AGGRESSION IS SOMETHING I WILLNOT EVER TOLERATE IN BULLDOGS.

IF I GET A YARD BEAST (AKA YARD GUARD) IT WILL LOOK NOTHING LIKE A BULLDOG SO IT WONT EVER GET "CONFUSED" FOR ONE. I WOULD BUY A RABID BORDER COLLIE FOR A YARD GUARD!! LMFAO

JUST MY 2 CENTS

thats ur two cents,,,,,,,,but for me it's a reality,,,,my dogs have never had a problem or shown any aggression toward kids,,,, let me clarify a few things ,,, my dogss have 25 foot by 25 foot pins with electric on top and bottom,,,, but if your dog protected you would you euthenize it? well then ,,,,answer that didn't I,,,,lol,,,


we are all here to learn and anyone with a yard has had accidents,,,, everyone here and to come on bashing someone for it is rediculous,,,,come on,,,are we not alittle more mature than that,,,for real now,,,,

[ghost 1]

we are here to learn ,,,not to cut someones throut and watch them bleed to death



have you never made a mistake before ye start throwing rocks,,,living in a glass house

[Miss Conduct]

but if your dog protected you would you euthenize it? well then ,,,,answer that didn't I,,,,lol,,,


we are all here to learn and anyone with a yard has had accidents,,,, everyone here and to come on bashing someone for it is rediculous,,,,come on,,,are we not alittle more mature than that,,,for real now,,,,
Protecting me is one thing, being HUMAN AGGRESSIVE as you stated in your first post (i didnt see your 2nd post till after i reply'd) is COMPL. different.


I have had my own accidents, never said i didnt. I dont remember bashing anyone in my replys either. That would just make me a hypocrite, as i am def. guilty of doing some STUPID things when i first got into the dogs.

[LuvinBullies]

luvvinbullies, I reread your post a few times and what was this dogs unstable history? She was a pet store failure- banished to a back room with no windows until she was 5 months old. She shared a medium sized crate with her brother during this time (which they far outgrew by the age of 3 months), and did not even know how to walk, she only crawled.
She was scared of everything from the start (understandably), which we hoped she would outgrow with socialization, training and lots of love. She has made so much improvement, but it's still there. Her timidness has grown gradually into a passive/aggressive trait. Female strangers are no big deal, but she lowers on her haunches and growls at male strangers for a split second, then (after being called out or simply on her own) whines and submits to them on her back, often with a urine trickle. She had a terrible problem with nervous piddling when she was a young dog, but with patience and lots of reassurance it has almost stopped, except when she meets a male stranger.

[tommy3]

Okay- I guess I failed to thoroughly paint the picture, and judging from some of the comments I guess my post came across in a way which left reason to believe I don't know what I am doing.

First of all- this is not the first dogfight I have ever had to break up in my life, and the absolute last thing I did was "freak out." I did not "allow" the older dog to exert dominance by "humping", she was always immediately called down and disciplined. I simply observed the attempted behavior and used it as a reference.
For a long time (which I thought I said), I have been observing the GSD's behavior, and her timidness was the first red flag-so we heightened her socialization, and she has made improvements. Her stranger aggression was making wonderful improvements as well, due to this increased socialization. However, as her socialization with humans has been improving, she has been becoming more aggressive with the other dogs- which of course is obvious she is trying to establish a pecking order. We allow the dogs to play together under our watch (separating them completely is ridiculous in the same home- they are bound to cross paths and the separation would aggravate the issue), but then we rotate them when they are out alone.
This was not a dog fight, per se. Athena was trying to erase Natas from the pecking order completely.
CB- thank you for your helpful post and I agree, I should have gotten a breaking stick a long time ago. Here is my biggest fault, and I willingly accept that. I did the only thing available at the time, which I am aware was radical and not ideal.
My opinion, is combined with her unstable history and newfound desire to exert dominance in any way she can, my only option is to euth her, which I stated in my post. I am more than aware that my child could be next. That's why I came to this decision.
However, before I followed through with it, I thought to post here what had happened and get opinions from people who may know of another option.
I was not planning on "dumping her on someone else and making her their problem". Read my post again. In it I clearly stated I feel she is unadoptable, and I also stated I planned to tell any potential facility that thought they could take her EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

Tommy3- please don't make light of this situation by calling it a "scuffle" or making generalizations about me. Your post was really condescending and didn't help me out at all, it only made me feel worse about a very sad situation. My beloved senior dog is hurt, and I know in my gut I need to euthanize another dog I also love very much and have been trying to help. Her progress has elated me, but what happened today has erased all of it. I know I failed her. Thank you for pointing it out in such a way to make me feel ten times worse when I am already down. I know you are a moderator and I respect you and your knowledge- but was your intention to help me or make me feel rotten?

To those who are genuinely trying to help- thank you very much.I'm sorry. It was blunt and maybe a little rude but I didn't intend on being condescending. I hope all works out well with you.

[purplepig]

Well, I for one do aggree that the seperating them doesnt aggrivate or improve the odds of an accident happening. I do however believe that having them together does increase the odds greatly of an altercation happening.

As for the guard pitbull thing, I have them. I have had many of them. It's all in how you raise them. My methods are different than most others for a guard dog, and the ones I have had would let a child beat them in the head with a stick, yet would even protect a child they did not know.

I am however looking at a catahoula for my yard. Amy is a super junk yard dog, but she likes to get the other dogs. A catahoula I think would stay out of the chain runs and also a bonus would be that they dont growl or bark. The ones I've been around would wait till you got in the yard and then sneak up behind you and WHAM!!

To the thing of a bulldog biting as a guard dog and the media. If you had a poodle bite someone in a kennel of APBT, the news would omit the poodle, and emphasize the bulldog in the story. You know that.

Lovin'Bullies, my hearts out to ya.(sorry to have highjacked this thread)
J

[SApits]

just take them all to that dog whisperer guy on tv, he's got 10 pits runnin around together with all kinds of other dogs and they don't fight. i don't know how but he does it. *L*

[LuvinBullies]

just take them all to that dog whisperer guy on tv, he's got 10 pits runnin around together with all kinds of other dogs and they don't fight. i don't know how but he does it. *L*Weed in the kibble, DUH!

Thank you for the laugh. I needed it.

[brindle]

First off, I am sorry your dogs got into a fight, that is always unpleasant. I'm glad they were not worse off.

What you describe about your female GSD Athena's temperament seems pretty typical of many GSD these days. It seems to be a breed trait for many shepherds to be a bit shy, especially female shepherds. Granted her early months were not ideal, but do you know anything about her parents and genetic history? Are her parents shy or bold in nature? Her nature could be a combination of genetics and her early treatment.

It's pretty hard to work with the dynamics of a 4 dog pack when they are not separated. It might help to do some strict training with all the dogs and especially the GSD and reinforce her place in the pecking order. Female/female fights can be the worst. And your 12 yr old pit is old, the GSD is trying to move her rank up in your pack, she knows the pit is old.

I did not see anything written about human aggressiveness in your GSD? A shepherd is not like a pit in temperament, they are very different. For your situation, the fact your old pit did not want to fight back may make this easier to work with, but maybe not. I would not let all of them out in the yard together anymore. Why not have pairs to go outside together? You know your dogs and would know which ones get along best.

I'd consider it carefully but if you truly feel your GSD can not stay with you and is not adoptable to another home, PTS would be kinder than passing her off to an unknown fate. I hope you do not have to do this, and maybe she would do well in a home when she is the only dog? Good luck, it's a hard decision.

[Riptora]

I think it is possible for the GSD to be rehomed through a breed specific rescue. I had a dobe female who became very dominant towards the other dogs and people. I went through a dobe rescue and she was rehomed and as far as I know she has been doing very well. She was adopted by someone who owned a large hotel and she is now their security. So she has a job. She is VERY lucky.

However this dog was pretty much raised in a crate. Her imprinting period was in a petstore, her breeding is poor, she does NOT have a good, stable temperment and I don't know.... I would offer her to a GSD rescue and be 100% honest, because you MUST be. I would not keep this dog. You have a 1 year old and we all know that every dog who attacks a child shows warning signs despite what some of these owners try to deny.

I'm sorry for you. This is a learning experience. Most of us have euthed dogs we've tried to "save" in the past. Even if she could be rehabilitated, who has the time and $ for that? Only in movies.

check out www.leerburg.com (http://www.leerburg.com) awesom site. He says 3 or more dogs is a pack of dogs ( so do many others and I agree ). He has some hardcore advise on dogs like your GSD and multiple dog households.

[Riptora]

just take them all to that dog whisperer guy on tv, he's got 10 pits runnin around together with all kinds of other dogs and they don't fight. i don't know how but he does it. *L*
He gets up at 5 am every single morning, jogs with them for miles and miles, does his little " shhht! " thing... his whole thing is pretty much he dominates all of them and works their butts off every day. This is his job, he has the time and the ambition. He says if they are tired as hell every morning, they have less energy to worry about fighting during the day, plus he's always making them submit to eachother, blah, blah, there's probably more too it. No regular Joe would have the time to deal with it. Sounds like a soap opera...

[newbieturtlepits]

wow hard one... wouldnt keep it at all.. i have had to rehome two dogs in my life they were sweet as could be to me but eventually aggressive to everyone else one was wolf husky mix and one sheppard. . beautiful and loving to me , kinda broke my heart but safety comes first.. always.. self and family. . the fact that she hasnt shown yet aggression toward child ,,, maybe never come maybe too late you catch it... one must be able to be sure of the dog you have in your home...shoot my sis even had a cat i told her would get the new grandkids and she waited..soon enuff.. yep got them both the 2 yr old and 7 month old too,, just cuz it ran off all the time , it got sneaky and waited.. and got them good now multiply that by one dog with attitude.. that needs correcting .. they can wait when opportunity knocks guess who answers the door.. did once , you caught it.. how will it be to know you cant turn your back.. go to the bathroom and bingo .. opportunity knocked.. it would be cruel to keep it and constantly crate it up all the time.. if it cant have a home where it cant have only one person to care for .. let it go ,, and save one that will make it.. it would be ever so much kinder in the long run..so many need people like you.. so many waiting .. this is dynamite with a short fuse waiting for a match.. my two cents worth from ages of experience and from my heart.. good luck .. i hope you find the right decision..blessings

[misterdogman]

Dont pass the problem on to anyone else...regardless of what your heart says use your mind and think if she was rescued or adopted and she never showed any bad signs everyone would think it was just a freak accident until she was in the situation again...and you said she has been thru hell so I think it would be too stressfull for her to go thru it all again...look what you saved her from when you got her...IMO her crate days have been fulfilled so she dont belong in one again waiting to be adopted for future problems or incidents with strange people...If it were me id Euthanize the GSD. Just to be safe and make it easier on her and yourself and any potential party involved with the dog that dont know what she is capable of...JMHO. Hope everything goes well and isnt stressful on you or your family.

[miakoda]

Dont pass the problem on to anyone else Thank you! Putting a dog with obvious issues out there into society, where you have no idea who will own it nor the steps they will be willing to take to work with the dog, is a huge risk & a big no-no. Responsibility means taking care of problems yourself.....not giving them to someone else.

[LuvinBullies]

Thank you! Putting a dog with obvious issues out there into society, where you have no idea who will own it nor the steps they will be willing to take to work with the dog, is a huge risk & a big no-no. Responsibility means taking care of problems yourself.....not giving them to someone else.In my post I stated she was unadoptable. In my second in reiterated this point. I asked if anyone knew of any other options. I am a member of several rescue groups, when did I insinuate I planned to put this dog into society without knowing where she would go?

[LuvinBullies]

Dont pass the problem on to anyone else...regardless of what your heart says use your mind and think if she was rescued or adopted and she never showed any bad signs everyone would think it was just a freak accident until she was in the situation again...and you said she has been thru hell so I think it would be too stressfull for her to go thru it all again...look what you saved her from when you got her...IMO her crate days have been fulfilled so she dont belong in one again waiting to be adopted for future problems or incidents with strange people...If it were me id Euthanize the GSD. Just to be safe and make it easier on her and yourself and any potential party involved with the dog that dont know what she is capable of...JMHO. Hope everything goes well and isnt stressful on you or your family.
Thank you very much. I felt from the get go euthing her was the best option. I simply wanted to post the situation here if I was overlooking any options. I know she is unadoptable. Thanks very much for your helpful post which has helped drive the point I originally felt was the only option.

[Miss Conduct]

Thank you very much. I felt from the get go euthing her was the best option. I simply wanted to post the situation here if I was overlooking any options. I know she is unadoptable. Thanks very much for your helpful post which has helped drive the point I originally felt was the only option.

I think the thing that people "jumped" on you for, is thinking that you were only putting her down because of the dog fight. I wouldnt put her to sleep for that, but most def. would for the human aggression.

If she was only dog aggressive and you knew a responsible/experienced owner i would say re-home, but with human aggression, that only has one end in my book.

[Boss' Mom]

they'll love you to death till the sun goes down,,,, i got one if she can't see you,,,she ready to throw down,,,,, and at the 2 times i've was robbed in a year,,,so be it,,,, next time they'll be here so i can shoot there @ss dead when i catch them,,,,,alot of work to train one to be that way,,,, workin with them dayly,,, and ,, i took a picture in the gallery where one started to snarl cuz she couldn,t see me and i was'nt speaking,,,, if she hears us talking and reconizes who we are she won't give a peep but if we sneak up or she can't see then it's on
I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous. You know, your dog can smell you before you even walk into the room. Your dog knew it was you, even though she couldn't see or hear you. So your dog snapped at YOU, essentially.

Training a Pit Bull to be human aggressive is a horrible idea. When you train a bulldog in PP, you are not training it to be human aggressive. The dog should never "snap" at a non-threatening stranger. Sounds like you've got a ticking time bomb on your hands. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[purplepig]

when did I insinuate I planned to put this dog into society without knowing where she would go?
You didn't, it seems conclusions are jumped on a regular basis here. I am so very glad that this is not the train system as there would be many head on colisions as so many jump on another track that the thread was on, and I shall not omit me in the formula. I will from now on refrer to this as CJ(conclusion jumping).LOL
J

[runt]

I disagree 100%,mine are not trained for it but when it is pitch black out mine do the same thing until they hear my voice.I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous. You know, your dog can smell you before you even walk into the room. Your dog knew it was you, even though she couldn't see or hear you. So your dog snapped at YOU, essentially.

Training a Pit Bull to be human aggressive is a horrible idea. When you train a bulldog in PP, you are not training it to be human aggressive. The dog should never "snap" at a non-threatening stranger. Sounds like you've got a ticking time bomb on your hands. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

[LuvinBullies]

I think the thing that people "jumped" on you for, is thinking that you were only putting her down because of the dog fight. I wouldnt put her to sleep for that, but most def. would for the human aggression.

If she was only dog aggressive and you knew a responsible/experienced owner i would say re-home, but with human aggression, that only has one end in my book.Thanks- I should have been clearer with everything yesterday...but I was upset and just throwing info together the best I could- which was poorly.
Her human aggression was something that was making wonderful progress, but always a MAJOR concern, and the extremity of the dogfight and her attitude towards us immediately following it was what formulated the tailspin. And of course then more facts come out: my mother in law revealed to me last night that Athena would always growl at her when she house sat for us...something I was not told about until last night. I understand dog aggression- I preach it as a pit bull supporter! However I understand the impression I made on everyone, and I must emphasize dog aggression was not the main concern- it is the GSD's unstable temperament- at least from what I have observed over the last two and a half years. Making progress or not, the dogfight should not have affected HER the way it did...she's still off today and won't come out from under the bed unless to go outside. The dogs have all been separated, and I sit with her by the bed...she pokes her nose out for a rub and I can hear her tail thumping- but she's a nervous wreck and will not come out. She was not physically punished yesterday-she immediately retreated under the bed after I got her in the house. (I thought I'd throw that in...of course had she been severely punished or something her hiding would be understandable, but I don't beat my dogs.) She barks nervously when the bedroom door opens, but calms when she knows its me or my husband...these all seem to be unsettling residual effects from a fight that happened 24 hours ago.

[maryellen1]

luvinbullies, are you SURE your motherinlaw is telling the truth? is it possible that when you told her of the dog fight she then decided to state this?? the only reason why i ask, is because it seems odd that your MIL would not tell you when Athena would growl at her, that is a huge red flag there.. did your MIL think that it shouldnt be discussed?? why is she tellling you all this now, and not when it happened?? my gsd growled at my FIL, (while i dont like them, it wasnt right for her to growl at him, so i had a serious come to jesus moment with her and it never happened again, that was right before she turned 2..)

see if you can maybe have your husband ask his mother in a round about way about athena.. i just cant see why she would wait to now to tell you yet still babysit the house .....

And of course then more facts come out: my mother in law revealed to me last night that Athena would always growl at her when she house sat for us...something I was not told about until last night.

[maryellen1]

ps- it takes sometimes a few days for both dogs to settle after a fight. its normal. give her some space and stop babying her, that is going to make her worse. if she wants to stay under the bed then leave her be. babying them is the worse thing to do, as it reinforces the bad behavior.. after my 2 got into the fight they went to their respected places, and i worked obedience with them each separately, and did strict NILIF with both for the next few months... NILIF is nothing in life is free you can see it at www.k9deb.com (http://www.k9deb.com) in case you never heard of it..

[LuvinBullies]

luvinbullies, are you SURE your motherinlaw is telling the truth? Yeah that crossed my mind- this woman loves her a good story to play along with. I know this, so I asked my husband about it, who said "oh yeah, I meant to tell you about that."
Evidently she told him about the incident over the phone right after it happened, but I guess my husband suffers from serious short term memory loss, and failed to relay the message to me.
But yeah, I didn't believe it when she first told me yesterday, I thought she was trying to convince me to euth her.

[mydawgs]

Yeah that crossed my mind- this woman loves her a good story to play along with. I know this, so I asked my husband about it, who said "oh yeah, I meant to tell you about that."
Evidently she told him about the incident over the phone right after it happened, but I guess my husband suffers from serious short term memory loss, and failed to relay the message to me.
But yeah, I didn't believe it when she first told me yesterday, I thought she was trying to convince me to euth her.
An article of interest perhaps for the multi dog family

http://www.leerburg.com/dog-agg.htm

[maryellen1]

it is a man thing.. ok, dont have your MIL babysit with athena there anymore until you figure out Athena. if she is growling at her lets remove the issue temporarily.

[LuvinBullies]

it is a man thing.. ok, dont have your MIL babysit with athena there anymore until you figure out Athena. if she is growling at her lets remove the issue temporarily.Worry not, the information given to me last night had an addendum: "I'm not going over there anymore with her when you guys aren't home."

Not that I'd expect her to. For a coon ass, she all of a sudden turned quite a yellow tail! (I'm joking...kinda. She is a coon ass, not a bad attribute. The yellow tail is understandable. lol)

[ghost 1]

I'm sorry, but that is just ridiculous. You know, your dog can smell you before you even walk into the room. Your dog knew it was you, even though she couldn't see or hear you. So your dog snapped at YOU, essentially.

Training a Pit Bull to be human aggressive is a horrible idea. When you train a bulldog in PP, you are not training it to be human aggressive. The dog should never "snap" at a non-threatening stranger. Sounds like you've got a ticking time bomb on your hands. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
BOSS i have a 3 acre yard so due to wind direction and whatnot,,, thats hard to say,,,, if i speak the tails go to wagging but perticuly just one of mine is bad about it,,,,, but if she doesn't know you as family,,, all i can say u are in the wrong place,,,,,until u and ur property is violated as mine has been 2 different times,,,, i only had one like this before and it was in the house,,,, so then i worked with this female till,,,, lets just say,,, noone wants to cross me or my family around her cuz she'll take it upon herself to see we walk away,,,when the police and whatnot has them redhanded 2 different times and lets them walk and no property returned,,,,hell one admited to it,,, u have to do what u have to,,,, but i garentee you it'll be different next time,,,they may get away from the dog but by the time they do they'll see me,,,and getting away from me after will not be a possibilty

[mydawgs]

LB -


I think the concesus of the GSD folks I have talked to believe it is not a breed or temperment issue, but a case of the younger bitch challanging the older dominant bitch for PacK Leader...........you can check it out over there as well. PM me if you have any questions....

[LuvinBullies]

LB -


I think the concesus of the GSD folks I have talked to believe it is not a breed or temperment issue, but a case of the younger bitch challanging the older dominant bitch for PacK Leader...........you can check it out over there as well. PM me if you have any questions....Your inquires to the other group mean a lot- thank you. And it does appear that way, had the dogfight been her only issue it would have been easier to see things for face value. Natas was pack leader, even above the male dogs. The male dogs simply gave her that rank, however since she was older- as they get older I am aware this will all change. She is not doing very well right now, and my biggest conflict is it is obvious I am not qualified to make the call as to what is to be done. I absolutely cannot risk having blood on my hands if she attacks someone- in my home or out of it. Now the issue is to have a qualified person make that decision, but I know she cannot remain here with my child in the home. It would be radically irresponsible and against everything I have learned about dog behavior to take that risk. I am not a behaviorist, but her past combined with her current behavior since the fight indicates to me there is a risk. I am searching for qualified temperament testers in my area for a second opinion- but my gut feeling is it is also irresponsible to have her adopted, even if she passes. I just don't know.

[laurajean]

Oh loving bullies, sometimes it just doesn't matter how well meaning you are and how hard you have worked. The dog just can't overcome her abuse as a puppy. Locked into a crate and unable to walk. That is just terrible! Poor dog. Still, you don't want your child to get bitten. What a dilemna! I know that as a mother (I am a Mom also), you know what you have to do...
I really feel a lot of sympathy for you and hope that you don't feel I have insulted you in any way.
last summer I had six dogs in my house, fostering four of them. My two older guys dies within 4 months of each other and now I am down to Blue. I could foster more dogs, but I am not up to dealing with the carte and rotate thing at the present time. Not until Blue is better trained. It's just not fair to her...or to any other dog I took in. Also I am not in the greatest financial shape. Having dogs costs money and I don't have tons of it.
I really feel for the poor GSD and for you. But if you think of it as a choice between the dog and your child, that should sort of clarify the issues. Good luck and let us know what you decide. It's a decision I am glad I am not facing...
Maybe you can figure out some alternative resolution that will allow the dog to go on living without risking your human family members...I wish that life was always white and black and cut and dried decisions, but we all know it isn't...

[Luke.UK]

Oh i`m sorry but what was posted about her hideing under the bed,snarling till she knew it was you or hubby,then wagging her tail while you tickkle her nose,i`m sorry but the dog has too leave.It comes across that she seriour(sp) issues.She sounds frearfull and timid,she doesn`t how to please you!(the idiot faults who kept her locked away for 5 months with her brother in crate in a store room)and with a young child around? ,no,that wont happen!!!!!Unless you can find someone who really work with her and help her then it could be that time.

my heart goes out to you.it must be horrid!:(

[LuvinBullies]

Well guys- I need some prayers for my senior pittie girl.
She's taking a turn for the worse, and her injuries are worse than we thought.
Serious muscle damage around her neck, and her spirit is all but gone. She has a gash in her neck which if it gets infected will surely kill her, but she is undergoing treatment.
2 beloved dogs now with uncertain futures. Myself to blame. I hope someone learns a lesson somewhere from this. I know I have.

[14rock]

Infections can be treated very easily, but after getting some more details (the human-aggression being the problem, and not the dog-aggression)...I would just put the dog down. From what you've stated, the dog sounds highly unstable, and besides that....is not enjoying life! Best wishes to whatever you decide, but I feel you've already made up your mind, and I hope you have the strength to go through what is right. At least you gave the dog a chance, and smothered it with affection, theres nothing more you could of done.

[FearlessKnight]

i have human aggresive pit bulls,,, trained to do so after dark,,,,what wrong with that,,,,, i can't help i don't like rot's or mastiffs,,,pits were breed to fight but,,, can be trained to do a varity of things,,, human aggression isn't a concern as long as your in control of the situation,,,i'de rather have a dog that will protect me when i'm not lookin ,,, rather than help them robb me blind
And this our dear pit bull lovers is what gives us the bad NAME.......Have you no sense at all? I would be ashamed to admit this on a public board.....or anywhere for that matter....you need help!

[ghost 1]

And this our dear pit bull lovers is what gives us the bad NAME.......Have you no sense at all? I would be ashamed to admit this on a public board.....or anywhere for that matter....you need help!and ur point is what,,,,,so be it,,,,I can't help this is a sad a@@ world we live with icced out dopeheads that have to support there habit by stealing,,, but it kinda reminds you of the commercial on tv where the boy is figure out how stupid he was when he was high and running threw the junkyard and by no means am i sum punky a@@ kid,,,,,,, my dogs have 150000 worth of liabilty on them,,,, but a crackhead won't need it

you come on here and say i have no sence----yet you peddle puppies,,,hmmm interesting,,,,, we all play the hand we are dealt in life


there ain't no shame in my game,,,open board or not,,,i don't hide behind the screen

[Boss' Mom]

BOSS i have a 3 acre yard so due to wind direction and whatnot,,, thats hard to say,,,, if i speak the tails go to wagging but perticuly just one of mine is bad about it,,,,, but if she doesn't know you as family,,, all i can say u are in the wrong place,,,,,until u and ur property is violated as mine has been 2 different times,,,, i only had one like this before and it was in the house,,,, so then i worked with this female till,,,, lets just say,,, noone wants to cross me or my family around her cuz she'll take it upon herself to see we walk away,,,when the police and whatnot has them redhanded 2 different times and lets them walk and no property returned,,,,hell one admited to it,,, u have to do what u have to,,,, but i garentee you it'll be different next time,,,they may get away from the dog but by the time they do they'll see me,,,and getting away from me after will not be a possibilty
Your scent is what the dog uses to determine who you are.

Also, I'd really like to know how you've "worked" with her and "trained her" to become human aggressive. A flat out human aggressive APBT should be euthanized.

[purplepig]

Yes, dogs can tell you by your scent, but they also can tell you by your voice. And if every dog that showed any type of ha was culled, many a great dog would not be in the gene pool. I do feel that the dog who turns on it's master is a different story, but there again, some great dogs would bite their master. Usually this happened, I believe, because they had trouble seeing,hearing or smelling. I personally feel that if the dog is not confused(through senses being non functional) and it turns on its master, then it will be culled from my yard. but if the dog defends my house, so be it. I think that those who are against a dog taking care of their people, are just like foks who want the guns took away, either ignorant and beleive all they read, or they are the thieves themselves, wanting every obsticle taken away so they can have easier access to their loot!
J

[mydawgs]

The fact of the matter is simply some dogs have better sniffers than others. My Am Staff has a better woofer than my APBT...or should I say behaves as though she responds much more attentively to smell than him. The other night we lost power and I had both of these crazy dawgs all up in my grill (via candle light) because they were frightened by the thunder. My husband went out to check that the car windows were up, when my APBT heard someone coming up the stairs in the dark he charged down the hall a barkin until he recognized his daddy then tried to apply the brakes which failed resulting in a minor collision and some fast low walkin back to me in the bed room. LOL

[missybee16]

Don't blame yourself for all that has happened. Sometimes we get in over our head trying to help any dog that comes along in our life time. Past issues is not the problem, it's the present ones. Deal with them by proper training methods & separte quarters, for aggression issues. Never keep a dog that has fought another in the same household. Makes for up coming problems head on. I do hope your Pit will get better soon.

[tommy3]

Never keep a dog that has fought another in the same household. Makes for up coming problems head on. Why would you get rid of a dog because it got in a fight? How about, never let your dog get in a fight in the first place. Dogs are going to fight if you allow it.

[laurajean]

Well, tommy3, it must be nice to be perfect. LOL! Ya know life is what happens when we are making other plans. Expect the unexpected. One can make all sorts of provisions to prevent dog fights and they still happen! Due to unexpected circumstances.
Yes, many fights happen because owners and handlers didn't foresee preventable stuff.
Please post your foolproof plan for preventing dog fights. I'd like to practice it...and it would be helpful.
Oh yes and how is the pit bull terier...any updates on her condition?

[BoiBoi]

Well, tommy3, it must be nice to be perfect. LOL! Ya know life is what happens when we are making other plans. Expect the unexpected. One can make all sorts of provisions to prevent dog fights and they still happen! Due to unexpected circumstances.
Yes, many fights happen because owners and handlers didn't foresee preventable stuff.
Please post your foolproof plan for preventing dog fights. I'd like to practice it...and it would be helpful.
um i think thats quite easy, its called proper restraint. people with a lot of dogs in their yards use chain setup's that no dog can escape from and they are far enough apart so that they can't reach each other. Now if u have multiple dogs in the house together well then ur just asking for trouble unless u keep them in crates which is just dumb

[SAM_I_AM]

um i think thats quite easy, its called proper restraint. people with a lot of dogs in their yards use chain setup's that no dog can escape from and they are far enough apart so that they can't reach each other. Now if u have multiple dogs in the house together well then ur just asking for trouble unless u keep them in crates which is just dumbyup yup......

[LuvinBullies]

Oh yes and how is the pit bull terier...any updates on her condition?Natas is is doing better- she is on high power antibiotics. The vet is treating her neck as an open wound- he didn't feel she could take anesthesia to put her under to stitch her up (She has a weak heart and lungs according to her examination). She's shaved and swollen. It's hard to see her like that, but not as hard as the decision we finally made about Athena.
She was PTS today at 3:00, and I guess I'm going through the expected emotions: but I feel a panicky sense of regret right now. It seemed like the right decision, best thing for her and only option until she was gone.

R.I.P. Lady Athena. March 27 2004-August 10 2006. I hope to see you at the bridge, if you can forgive me.

[Evil_Elvis]

wow.. I had to type delete about seven times here..

All I can say is I hope you realize you still have a pit bull....

When are people going to realize the only best friend their dog needs is them???

may i suggust some no nonsense advice? Build a few kennel runs in the backyard.. With a bit of time management you still can spend quality time with each dog, rotate them in and out ( crates in the house are wonderfull, too) and each dog will be able to spend time outside SAFELY.

[laurajean]

Well BoiBoi, I know people on this forum who have had "yard accidents". The collar broke or was slipped out of or some sort of unforeseen equipment failure.
I personally have had moments of inattention and had dogs yank a leash out of my hands. I had my dog in the car once and came home from the grocery store and opened the door and she leapt out to run across the street to chase the neighbor's cat. She could have been hit by a car in running across the street...( the neighbor's cat escaped unscathed, news that will gladden the hearts of some and darken the hearts of others here).
So I learned from these mistakes, but that is no guarantee that I am now perfect and will not make more mistakes in the future. Also welds fail, chains fail, collars wear out, dogs chew through fences, dig holes under them, climb them..gats get left open...people are not ALL perfect like you and Tommy3...you never had a dog wrench its collar out of your hands when you were transfering it from chain to leash?
I hope you never lose a dog unintentionally and , of course, I hope you don't intentionally "lose" dogs and don't mean to imply that you do. I am glad for you in that respect. That you have never made a mistake.
Also Lovinbullies, I hope your Natas pulls through. You have my sympathy for your loss of Athena. Try and console yourself with the thought that she at least got to experience love and care for the year and 7 months you had her.

[ghost 1]

[QUOTE=Boss' Mom]Your scent is what the dog uses to determine who you are.

Also, I'd really like to know how you've "worked" with her and "trained her" to become human aggressive. A flat out human aggressive APBT should be euthanized.[/QUOTE...


i feel for you LB and know the decision you made was diffcult and hope it was the right one,,,my prayers go out to you,,,

[ghost 1]

You really need to grow up! It seems that this poor breed can't escape all of the GHETTO TRASH like yourself. You are the reason people hate our dogs......GROW UP....get a gun, isn't that what works best for your kind,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,quote'''''
\


boy thats nice on my rep...... thats okay we see there is no name ,,,lol,,, u don't know me nor pay my bills,

[ghost 1]

you know whats funny someone had a very unfortunate accident with they're dog here and some of you came in on this thread to witch hunt,,,, who are you to judge someone else ,,,, that says alot about u already,,,, but u can jump on me,,,i can take it,,,, as well as dish it out,,,if you never had an incident then either you don't have a yard or your not telling it,,,,,because it happens,,,,, even to the best of us,,,,, i really like the ghetto trash though ,,,never been called that before

[BoiBoi]

Well BoiBoi, I know people on this forum who have had "yard accidents". The collar broke or was slipped out of or some sort of unforeseen equipment failure.
I personally have had moments of inattention and had dogs yank a leash out of my hands. I had my dog in the car once and came home from the grocery store and opened the door and she leapt out to run across the street to chase the neighbor's cat. She could have been hit by a car in running across the street...( the neighbor's cat escaped unscathed, news that will gladden the hearts of some and darken the hearts of others here).
So I learned from these mistakes, but that is no guarantee that I am now perfect and will not make more mistakes in the future. Also welds fail, chains fail, collars wear out, dogs chew through fences, dig holes under them, climb them..gats get left open...people are not ALL perfect like you and Tommy3...you never had a dog wrench its collar out of your hands when you were transfering it from chain to leash?
I hope you never lose a dog unintentionally and , of course, I hope you don't intentionally "lose" dogs and don't mean to imply that you do. I am glad for you in that respect. That you have never made a mistake.
Also Lovinbullies, I hope your Natas pulls through. You have my sympathy for your loss of Athena. Try and console yourself with the thought that she at least got to experience love and care for the year and 7 months you had her.
I understand what ur saying, i've had my dog slip his collar and even brake a chain once, but i smartened up and got the proper setup where there is no possibility that he can brake his chain or anything else. I understand accidents happen and people learn from them, but the right setup will limit the chances of accidents happening at all.

[ghost 1]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[missybee16]

Why would you get rid of a dog because it got in a fight? How about, never let your dog get in a fight in the first place. Dogs are going to fight if you allow it. I said, in the same household. That dog should be separated from the others if they cannot get along. I have never said, get rid of the dog. And, some do get rid of their dogs because of that. I train, I do not.

[Riptora]

i won't blame the dog for what i trained it to be,,,,i stand firm and believe i have done what i had to,,, now if i wanted a 150lb rot,,, then thats what would have but i've had pitbulls for 20+ years now and another dog is just a mutt to me,,,not saying anything bad about german rots,,, shepards,,pinchers,,, they're still not the to standard of dog i want to own,,,,somrtimes in life you do some things u don't want to but feel it to be neccessary to protect you and ur own,,,,
reguardless i only have to justify my actions to me ,,,,


i feel for you LB and know the decision you made was diffcult and hope it was the right one,,,my prayers go out to you,,,You just forced your favorite breed out of it's standard. If it had to be " trained " to go against it's standard, apparently in these 20+ years, you have not owned the breed that met your standards. Most of us love the fact that APBT's are not human aggressive and any APBT out of that temperment standard is a headline waiting to happen.
IF YOU LOVE THIS BREED LOVE IT FOR WHAT IT IS AND DON'T EXPECT IT TO BE WHAT IT IS NOT....
Your " trained " dog growls at you when the camera is over your face? I'm sorry, either you have a serious accident waiting to happen, or your dog's canine senses are nonexistent, because that dog should know it's you and that you pose NO threat by taking her picture. I hope you didn't use yourself as a decoy in this " training ".

Rotts aren't 150 lbs., apparently you are confused. I'm sure if you had a real protection bred dog, you could take it's picture without it warning you.

IMO you unintentionally created the same kind of unstable temperment that got Luvinbullies in a bad way.

[Riptora]

Natas is is doing better- she is on high power antibiotics. The vet is treating her neck as an open wound- he didn't feel she could take anesthesia to put her under to stitch her up (She has a weak heart and lungs according to her examination). She's shaved and swollen. It's hard to see her like that, but not as hard as the decision we finally made about Athena.
She was PTS today at 3:00, and I guess I'm going through the expected emotions: but I feel a panicky sense of regret right now. It seemed like the right decision, best thing for her and only option until she was gone.

R.I.P. Lady Athena. March 27 2004-August 10 2006. I hope to see you at the bridge, if you can forgive me.
I am very sorry for your loss. You did the right thing and took care of your business.

[ghost 1]

You just forced your favorite breed out of it's standard. If it had to be " trained " to go against it's standard, apparently in these 20+ years, you have not owned the breed that met your standards. Most of us love the fact that APBT's are not human aggressive and any APBT out of that temperment standard is a headline waiting to happen.
IF YOU LOVE THIS BREED LOVE IT FOR WHAT IT IS AND DON'T EXPECT IT TO BE WHAT IT IS NOT....
Your " trained " dog growls at you when the camera is over your face? I'm sorry, either you have a serious accident waiting to happen, or your dog's canine senses are nonexistent, because that dog should know it's you and that you pose NO threat by taking her picture. I hope you didn't use yourself as a decoy in this " training ".

Rotts aren't 150 lbs., apparently you are confused. I'm sure if you had a real protection bred dog, you could take it's picture without it warning you.

IMO you unintentionally created the same kind of unstable temperment that got Luvinbullies in a bad way.U must know me and my dogs,,,,not once has she tried to bite anyone,,, yet,,,where i live it's open ,,,so someone has to be seriously out of place to get in contact with this dog,,,i understand ur concerns and would have to say before i got robbed i wouldn't have a dog outside like that,,, she's just extremely protective,,,I have no sympathy in theives,,,and will shoot they're a@@ on the spot,,,,Riptora last time i got robbed they came and tore up one of my 4 wheelers trying nto steal it,,, since they couldn't get it,, they took all my kids christmas ,,,, and as many ppl right after christmas i didn't have the money to replace,,,,so i had to sit here and watch my kids cry for almost a month till i could replace it,,, they got the guys that done it,,, and never charged them or made them replace it,,, so i have my reasons,,,, even though they didn't charge them,,, lets say they paid for what they done


If you don't have kids u probroly wouldn't understand,,,

[Riptora]

U must know me and my dogs,,,,not once has she tried to bite anyone,,, yet,,,where i live it's open ,,,so someone has to be seriously out of place to get in contact with this dog,,,i understand ur concerns and would have to say before i got robbed i wouldn't have a dog outside like that,,, she's just extremely protective,,,I have no sympathy in theives,,,and will shoot they're a@@ on the spot,,,,Riptora last time i got robbed they came and tore up one of my 4 wheelers trying nto steal it,,, since they couldn't get it,, they took all my kids christmas ,,,, and as many ppl right after christmas i didn't have the money to replace,,,,so i had to sit here and watch my kids cry for almost a month till i could replace it,,, they got the guys that done it,,, and never charged them or made them replace it,,, so i have my reasons,,,, even though they didn't charge them,,, lets say they paid for what they done


If you don't have kids u probroly wouldn't understand,,,
I'm sorry to hear about that. Sounds like a terrible experience. I do have kids and I have lived in an environment with my kids where I did not feel secure. So I understand. I ended up with a pack of Dobermans and a no BS attitude. I think that everyone should be able to own a dog for security reasons. It is a quality I expect in one of my dobes. I think that having a dog for security is the best so long as you know what you are doing.

What I do not like is non professional trying to train a security dog. There are small exercises such as boosting confidence, but I never had to train my dobermans. It is what they were bred to do and they were safe. They were not insecure and they were good at recognizing a threat. It was in their nature. APBT's are not gaurd dogs and nothing gets to me more when someone tries and train one to be so. The worst dogs I've ever encountered were " trained " to be protectors by those who did not know what they were doing. It creates the worst kind of unstable temperement you can imagine.

I do believe in protection training. I hope to be involved in it some day, but it is like playing with fire. All of the worst dog attack stories in the media which resulted in death were from dogs who's owners tried to train them in protection. The rotts who killed a 12 year old ( the attack lasted hours ), to the presa canarios who killed a grown woman ( also lasted several hours ).

I might have held my tongue on this, but I saw the dog in your gallery raising lip to you for taking her picture. You need to stop kidding yourself, because she knows that is you with that camera. There is nothing threatening about taking a dog's photo and a stable dog would not have flinched. Baring teeth and growling is not only a sign of a bad APBT but a poor security dog. Dogs who growl/bare teeth are eliminated from ring competition because it is a sign of unstable temperment. I would have pm'de you, but I think this is a topic that people need to learn more about.

I completely understand the need to feel safe in your home. Especially with a family, but you may be creating unwanted danger from the inside out. I would not keep a dog that growled at a member of the family, I probably wouldn't even keep one that growled at strangers.

[ghost 1]

I'm sorry to hear about that. Sounds like a terrible experience. I do have kids and I have lived in an environment with my kids where I did not feel secure. So I understand. I ended up with a pack of Dobermans and a no BS attitude. I think that everyone should be able to own a dog for security reasons. It is a quality I expect in one of my dobes. I think that having a dog for security is the best so long as you know what you are doing.

What I do not like is non professional trying to train a security dog. There are small exercises such as boosting confidence, but I never had to train my dobermans. It is what they were bred to do and they were safe. They were not insecure and they were good at recognizing a threat. It was in their nature. APBT's are not gaurd dogs and nothing gets to me more when someone tries and train one to be so. The worst dogs I've ever encountered were " trained " to be protectors by those who did not know what they were doing. It creates the worst kind of unstable temperement you can imagine.

I do believe in protection training. I hope to be involved in it some day, but it is like playing with fire. All of the worst dog attack stories in the media which resulted in death were from dogs who's owners tried to train them in protection. The rotts who killed a 12 year old ( the attack lasted hours ), to the presa canarios who killed a grown woman ( also lasted several hours ).

I might have held my tongue on this, but I saw the dog in your gallery raising lip to you for taking her picture. You need to stop kidding yourself, because she knows that is you with that camera. There is nothing threatening about taking a dog's photo and a stable dog would not have flinched. Baring teeth and growling is not only a sign of a bad APBT but a poor security dog. Dogs who growl/bare teeth are eliminated from ring competition because it is a sign of unstable temperment. I would have pm'de you, but I think this is a topic that people need to learn more about.

I completely understand the need to feel safe in your home. Especially with a family, but you may be creating unwanted danger from the inside out. I would not keep a dog that growled at a member of the family, I probably wouldn't even keep one that growled at strangers.

i totally understand how you feel and ur outlook on this,,,she was starting to give warning,,, but she didn't know it was me either,,, it was 10:00 at night,, and i walked out where they were,,, i know whole heartedly that this isn't the best situation to have but it's the one i choose to have because i trust my pitbulls more than you'll ever know,,i'll just put it like this,, i trust my dogs more than any person i know,,and leave it at that,,, she will give fair warning but only till she's gets pushed and pushed and then she'll do what she has to,,,i know what ur are saying by people trying to do this with these dogs,, they are really not protection dogs and don't make good ones,,,by any means ,,, but i don't feel it right to throw a rot or dovvie out there in the middle of my dogs either,,, but i am very firm on my dogs,,, the one in the house will crawl up on u and he very carefull not to step on you while gettin up in your lap,,, and acts like a big ol baby,,,

[brindle]

the decision we finally made about Athena.
She was PTS today at 3:00, and I guess I'm going through the expected emotions: but I feel a panicky sense of regret right now. It seemed like the right decision, best thing for her and only option until she was gone.

R.I.P. Lady Athena. March 27 2004-August 10 2006. I hope to see you at the bridge, if you can forgive me.
LuvinBullies, I am sorry for your loss. At least she knew love and kindness for well over a year, many dogs do not get that in their lives. Please don't blame yourself, it's not your fault. Some things you just can't fix and better to let her go before she bites someone. RIP Athena.

[Luke.UK]

So sad.

Hope your feeling a little better soon,Luvin..
RIP

[mydawgs]

I said, in the same household. That dog should be separated from the others if they cannot get along. I have never said, get rid of the dog. And, some do get rid of their dogs because of that. I train, I do not.
I have to say I am dissapointed on the passing of Athena, but it was not my home or my life, I respect your decision. Some of the things that should be pointed out IMO is the unchecked dominance of Natas to Athena, for example the mounting. In the future do not let one of your dogs display dominance over another, you should be the dominant one and all the dogs should know it. There can be only ONE alpha and that needs to be you. Had Natas and Athena repected this perhaps the incident could have been avoided, Natas would be fine and Athena alive and happy. Multiple dogs are hard good luck LB just be aware of the signs you recognize now as a result of the incident. If you are not the alpha it will be up for grabs and it will only be a matter of time before one or the other dogs will challange for it as Athena did.

RIP Athena

[LuvinBullies]

Thank you for the kind words- I never allowed the mounting to happen-it was immediately stopped and she was disciplined. I mentioned it as a frame of reference for an attempted behavior I observed- I should have been clearer on that.