Intensity of Dog Aggression

[jessiepbg]

As many of you know, I work at a local humane society. There are currently three pit bull-type dogs (probably two Amstaffs and one APBT). The one that I believe is an APBT is very dog aggressive, or at least I thought. It turns out that it's pretty easy to pull her concentration off of whatever dog she was trying to get at. I always thought that you couldn't keep a dog aggressive APBT from going after another dog without moving out of sight range. Is she not as strongly dog aggressive as most APBTs or is it possible to move a dog's concentration without getting out of sight range of the other dog?

[pennsooner]

People have done very advanced obedence with highly dog-aggressive Pits, things like French Ring. You've just got to be able to get the dog to focus on YOU and away from the other dog.


The deal is, it is stressful on the dog, but they can still do it.

[Riptora]

It must be possible if it is working for you! She sounds like a great dog who wants to please. Why are you asking? I'm just curious... are you debating on putting her down or did you just not think it was a possibility to redirect a DA dog?

[jessiepbg]

It's a no-kill shelter, so she's not going to be put down. It's just a good thing to know before placing her and it makes me feel a lot safer taking her out with other dogs in the area. I also didn't think it was possible to redirect an aggressive dog. The only reason I started to work with her is because I heard that she was going at it through the fence with a female lab/shepherd and that it took two people to kennel her. I wasn't too worried, as the people who were having trouble were known for being unable to correctly handle dogs, but I never thought it would be this easy to redirect her. It made me wonder if she was only mildly dog aggressive or if it was possible to take an aggressive dog's concentration off another dog.

[catcher T]

depending on where she was before,,she could of had some really basic obediance put on her,,it also might depend on the dog that she is faced with,,,sometimes they just don't want that dog,,who knows why,,I still would not give her 100% trust

[Suki]

I still would not give her 100% trust
I agree. ALWAYS, please be on your guard with her. Expect an altercation, and you'll always be prepared.
Good luck with her.

[misterdogman]

Something that hasnt been mentioned yet is that this dog is most likely not gamebred, like you said it is in a shelter, and I am going to go on a wild limb and assume she didnt come with papers, so here is my point,....

there are lots of APBT type dogs and amstaffs that are "fight crazy" but not game...with any normal mutt or lab/shepard mix or whatever the APBT will look real aggressive and seem like any gamebred dog but if ever given a chance with a game dog the fight craziness soon fades to yelping and crying when the gamebred dog shows its teeth, so going off an assumption that this dog is probaly just a "two pitbulls got together" BYB type mutt dog it is probaly just going off of prey drive and boredom, the only way to find out is to actually let her meet some dogs and that would require some help but it is very possible to ween her off her aggression and train her to understand manners, especially if shes not a gamebred dog and especially if she is fixed, I have seen people even train gamedogs to not fight but they always seemed like they went psycho...like they had bad chewing habits and hair loss and teeth problem...I therorized it was from the brainwashing and torment of being punished for doing something natural...it would be like trying to train a Monkey to not climb trees ....im sure it drives them insane to not do natural things....so im sure she can be trained to be a normal dog if my assumption that she is not gamebred is correct it should just be a matter of time and reinforcement....

[maximusab]

Being in various dog sports(French Ring, Mondio Ring)etc... I can tell you that it is possible. We have done it with several game bred dogs. We have also done it with performance bred American Bulldogs who can be very animal aggressive. Now this doesn't mean turn them loose at the dog park. But with proper socialization and training we have had great success with teaching bulldogs to tolerate other dogs and be very obedient and controllable. We have even competed with these dogs. It is just that the reward of the decoy, tug etc.. outways the urge to fight.

Now you also have to be on your toes. Because a game dogs a game dog and might take the chance if you are being lazy or careless. These dogs are very smart. After working with almost all other working breeds I have to say that they are on average smarter than most. My female will actually ignore another dog and back up on her leash to put slack in it. Then if the dogs gets within strike range she strikes. If I don't watch this she all of a sudden has two feet of leash that I don't know about and bam! So always be watchful and know what you have.

After working with Malinois, pitbulls are easy. Not that they are dog aggressive but they are twice as drivey and twice as fast. They have no problem putting their teeth on you unlike most bulldogs. You correct a Malinois too hard unfairly they will eighther shut down completely or put you in a tree. No joking!

[Attila]

Something that hasnt been mentioned yet is that this dog is most likely not gamebred, like you said it is in a shelter, and I am going to go on a wild limb and assume she didnt come with papers, so here is my point,....

there are lots of APBT type dogs and amstaffs that are "fight crazy" but not game...with any normal mutt or lab/shepard mix or whatever the APBT will look real aggressive and seem like any gamebred dog but if ever given a chance with a game dog the fight craziness soon fades to yelping and crying when the gamebred dog shows its teeth, so going off an assumption that this dog is probaly just a "two pitbulls got together" BYB type mutt dog it is probaly just going off of prey drive and boredom, the only way to find out is to actually let her meet some dogs and that would require some help but it is very possible to ween her off her aggression and train her to understand manners, especially if shes not a gamebred dog and especially if she is fixed, I have seen people even train gamedogs to not fight but they always seemed like they went psycho...like they had bad chewing habits and hair loss and teeth problem...I therorized it was from the brainwashing and torment of being punished for doing something natural...it would be like trying to train a Monkey to not climb trees ....im sure it drives them insane to not do natural things....so im sure she can be trained to be a normal dog if my assumption that she is not gamebred is correct it should just be a matter of time and reinforcement....
I agree totally now give me back my stinken tree or I will through poop at every one.http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Riptora]

The only way to break any " habit " or unwanted behavior is to replace it with something else. This holds true to animal training and for humans. Alcoholics stay clean by replacing that time/space/energy/desire with some other thing. Anger managment, drug addicts, abusers, whatever, they all overcome thier issues by replacing their thoughts and behaviors with something else. I think exercise is the most effective and profitable way to replace any urges.

In a dog training book I read, there was a dog who would take visitor's hands into it's mouth and pull them around the house. They changed that behavior by keeping a basket of gift bags near the door and they trained the dog to instead, grab a gift bag when visitors came over and walk around with it until they left, then they got a gift bag! Just like the Am. Bulldogs in the ring sports, they are taking that desire and putting it on the sleeve. Which is why if you buy a dog from working lines and don't work them... you have lots of problems! http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[14rock]

Some very good posts on this thread ;)

Redirection is the key. You need to give them something else to focus on. This is a tactic which may work say, on leash, walking down the street when another dog gets within sight. However, this is only covering up the dog-aggression with willingness to please you at that particular moment, when your dog and another dog get together without your redirection, you can be almost assured they will have a go. Basically, with strict, proper redirect training you can put a band-aid on the problem for public, but you are still not taking the fight out of the dog. It once again all boils down to "never trust a pitbull not to fight".

[maximusab]

You cannot totally trust a game dog not to fight. But this is true for alot of dogs. I have seen German Shepards that would fight at the drop of a hat. Not very common but happens. Pitbulls don't have the market cornered on the urge to fight.

I can trust my female around non-dominant respectful dogs. Once the pecking order is established then she will play with other dogs. If the dog breaks this system then he or she is reminded. Now I would never let them play unsupervised. This is only asking for a problem. This is also after 4 years of training. If a dog shows the urge to fight however they are toast. My friends female bluecur cannot be around my dog. It was hate at first sight and my dog in plotting to kill her as we speak. I don't know why but she hates her guts and liver. But she played with my female Malinois, my male AB, and my male GSP. But you have to always watch and never get lazy.

[misterdogman]

I agree totally now give me back my stinken tree or I will through poop at every one.http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gifFine heres your stinken tree, I already covered it in fecal material and piss....now its all yours...lmao

[laurajean]

Attila and misterdogman will you please stop flirting in this thread? You are going to get scolded again...by the admin...
My boyfriend and I have a rescue APBT...no she doesn't have papers...I know nothing of where she came from...she was a year old when we got her...
She will kill a cat at the drop of a hat.
She would love to sink her teeth into a squirrel.
When we walk her in public she scans constantly for dogs and eyeballs every one she sees, if we let her. Little dogs I think she thinks are cats. She'd love to sink her teeth into them, especially the little yappy, ill-tempered ones. We are currently taking her to an all pit bull obedience class where she is learning to pay attention to us rather than to every dog she sees. Sometimes she play-bows to dogs in the class and other times she eyeballs them...
She has made lots of progress in being around other dogs and behaving but I would not trust her for a second around another dog. She isn't going to be allowed to get in a fight if we can stop it. Too bad if she thinks that is what she wants to do. We exercise her a LOT. The more exercised she is , the better she behaves.
She was hit by a car(before we got her) and has no hip joint on her right rear. Who knows how she would fare in a real fight? She thinks she is a bad -a$$. After she gets basic obedience down, I am going to try to get a CGC for her and then see what I want to try with her. She needs some sort of occupation, but fighting isn't going to be it. Some of the pit bulls in the class are totally nonchalant about the other dogs and other pit bulls in the class like to play the "eyeball" game. We (the other dog owners in the class and the teachers) NEVER trust our pits not to fight.
All the pits (lean and mean and small and oversized "hippo" dogs)in the class are very affectionate to humans. The boyfriend and I take turns petting the other dogs in the class after the class is over...
Blue loves people too...all shapes, ages and sizes. Since joining pit bull forums I have heard other people say they have trained their dog aggressive dogs to behave around other dogs. I think it is possible for Blue and for most dogs to be obedience trained. Of course I have never had experience with a real game-bred APBT who is descended from champion fighting dog stock. I have heard people say that they go crazy to get to other dogs...but I have only heard that. I am not any sort of expert on dogs or on APBTs. Still, people with years of experience in other fields often promulgate myths about their field, because they heard it and believed it...
Back to Blue, she will pretty much ignore cats now when we are walking her on a leash (and squirrels), but if she is loose in the backyard and sees a cat...yelling at her won't stop her going for it...(My understanding is that this is prey drive, not dog agression)
I have hopes that we are going to have a dog that can sit, stay and down around other dogs, but I dunno if I will ever trust her around them off a leash that is clutched tightly in my hands. We have had her for a year.
She has a wonderful personality around us, she is a big clown and very snuggly and loving. We couldn't live without her! I will keep her til she dies, no matter what, even if we are unable to make her behave around other dogs, then we will just walk her where there aren't other dogs around and she will be our only dog til the day she dies. If we can teach her to behave around other dogs, we may get another dog, but would never leave them alone together. We shall see...
We took her and she is ours til we die or she does. And we intend to keep her out of trouble. We love her to death even if she is a cur/ mutt, she is our cur/mutt and no one sees her big heart and love for us like we do.

[jessiepbg]

Thanks for the replies everybody, it really helped. Don't worry, I know not to trust her not to fight. I just always thought that DA dogs were more intent on getting to the other dog and not as easy to redirect.

[misterdogman]

I was reading your post and everything was flowin' fine and I could hear your words in my head and all the sudden I read that your taking your APBT to a all APBT OB class. Now correct me if I'm wrong someone PLEASE ... but doesnt something sound scary about that when it rolls off your tongue and you try to say it..... think about it and tell me if you laugh...I wouldnt take a dog to one...one dogs loses it and poof...Dominoes

[maryellen1]

make sure that if you adopt out this dog the owners have prior pit bull experience. do NOT adopt her to a non experience pit bull home, that could prove deadly and a headline.....

[mydawgs]

I was reading your post and everything was flowin' fine and I could hear your words in my head and all the sudden I read that your taking your APBT to a all APBT OB class. Now correct me if I'm wrong someone PLEASE ... but doesnt something sound scary about that when it rolls off your tongue and you try to say it..... think about it and tell me if you laugh...I wouldnt take a dog to one...one dogs loses it and poof...Dominoes
It makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up LOL.

I have an Am St/APBT mix (my little mixamutt), she is DA as all get out. I have been OB/Leadership training her now for 2 years, and she challanges me for that leadership EVERY DAY. She is a very strategic fighter, fights from her back and will stay the course for the most part...if your wondering, experience from my idiotic mistakes! She now will immediately redirect to me due to her training when she sees another dog, she will still tremble with excitement and she softly wimpers but she will look at me, it takes everything she is, I wouldn't trust her a single second around any other dog with the exception of my male APBT.

But to the game bred dog discussion, an altercation between her and another dog although furious is much different than what I have seen from my game bred male APBT. He is a very cold dog, and I have only seen him turn on once in the 6 years I have been around him.....there is much less fury in his altercations and much more decisivness, much less finesse and much more brute force.....I wish I could put into words what I see, it is kind of like he is more on auto-pilot and has to think a lot less to be twice as effective (if you are wondering we were attacked by a 75 lb Am Staff that broke it's lead....ya never seen a 47 lb bull dog put that animal down so quickly).

Very good topic!!!!