Chinaman Game?

[PIt4life]

Was Chinaman REALLY game? I heard his longest match was (about) 40mins, and that few people would pit with him. I think he is a great dog, that produced some amazing offspring, but was he real game?
Was he just a hard mouthed pit dog, that made other dogs cur(because people that wanted to pit with him, werent the brightest bulbs-just a guess-) A dog with an over-rated name, that was never pushed far enough??


Just wondering, no one else could answer these questions.

[misterdogman]

Was Chinaman REALLY game? I heard his longest match was (about) 40mins, and that few people would pit with him. I think he is a great dog, that produced some amazing offspring, but was he real game?
Was he just a hard mouthed pit dog, that made other dogs cur(because people that wanted to pit with him, werent the brightest bulbs-just a guess-) A dog with an over-rated name, that was never pushed far enough??


Just wondering, no one else could answer these questions.Many an old dogman would tell you a bone crusher is impossible to test for gameness...like Going light Barney...they went to the extent of almost tieing him up to see how he would act against even a bigger dog because he was such a destroyer...like Chinaman ...it is the same thing...I actually believe hearing a similar story with Chinaman that after trying to test him they didnt care about it since he destroyed all comers and it was impossible to test a dog in under 30 minutes....and I think only one match that ever went over a half hour at like 37 minutes...thats the longest time he ever went for...so there is no way to tell if he really was or not....correct me if im wrong about the time someone....

[Riptora]

You know, every time I think about Chinaman, I think of a lean, black, psycho-dog. I've only read a few stories on him, but he sounds like a nut case. I don't think he would have quit, too loco. I am curious on this too.

[Saiyagin]

Well let me put it this way he never quit so he was game enough to win but if you asking me if he was deep game that we will never know because his talent over shadowed his gameness. Alot of dogmen at that time knew of Ch.Chinamans caliber and wouldnt go into him thats how feared and respected Chinaman was.

[hillbilly]

Chinaman went uphill 10lbs. and finished at .28,then at.17,then at .18 and then after that nobody would go against him until he turned 7 (i think) and he finished in .38.

[davidlau_2002]

makes me feel proud to be a chinaman. HAHAHAHAHHAA. sorry. i had to go there. at least i can't be called racist. but seriously, at least you can't say he was managed wrong. it would be hard during that era to be "not challenged" enough. there must have been plenty of hot dogs during that time. give him his due. no handler ever stepped up that could beat him so that's not his fault. he took ALL comers. peace.

[jeeperino]

IMO Chinaman's breeding career was mismanaged in a way. That is why Frisco was bred soooo much cause Garner didnt want to make the same mistake twice.

[Mudville_Monsta]

I'm curious to know how many times he was bred, and what were his percentages persay of how he through. Was he a relatively good producer who wasn't bred enough or to the right gyps, or was he a better athlete than producer? this is what i've been wondering and it is not spoken of much when he is brought up.

[ROSE]

What Is Meant By People That Wanted To Pit With Him Weren't The Brightest Bulb?

[ROSE]

Chinaman Never Had To Prove His Gameness,and When Barney Had To He Quit.

[B]

Chinaman made ROM with a relatively low amount of breedings. I would say his % were far better than Jeep or Frisco (both the top ROM dogs). It would have been interesting to see what would have come of it if he had been bred more. Much like "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie pop?", the world will never know :D

Regards,

B

[Mudville_Monsta]

how'd i know you would have some input.lol. i totally forgot he made ROM. I was half asleep this morning when i posted. thanks for the clearification.

[cheese]

How many males are off of chinaman? I have seen a few but i have also heard there papers were hung? there seemed to be more females off chinaman.

[monsterVili]

i was wondering if anyone knew how chinaman's litter mates did?

[Mudville_Monsta]

How many males are off of chinaman? I have seen a few but i have also heard there papers were hung? there seemed to be more females off chinaman.
i tried to look it up for ya on peds, but unfortunately there isn't much listed off of him.

[hillbilly]

i was wondering if anyone knew how chinaman's litter mates did?all that i can remember is that Boy made Ch,i think he had a couple of sisters that win a few but can't remember.

[jeeperino]

What other of Chinamans offspring produced decent besides Frisco??

It is also some peoples opinions that an ACE or a great one wont throw offspring that is the same caliber as themself . I think that applys to Chinaman. Also look at Dbl Gr CH Tornado, as far as I know she wasnt much of a producer.

But really, unless you were there to see it with your own 2 eyes you cant judge the level of competition the so called greats went into.

I am in no way hating on Chinaman. I question damn near everything, and we all know Garner could sell a fish scuba gear. LOL


YIS

[misterdogman]

Chinaman Never Had To Prove His Gameness,and When Barney Had To He Quit.only at old age under suspiscion of being drugged

[hillbilly]

What other of Chinamans offspring produced decent besides Frisco??

It is also some peoples opinions that an ACE or a great one wont throw offspring that is the same caliber as themself . I think that applys to Chinaman. Also look at Dbl Gr CH Tornado, as far as I know she wasnt much of a producer.

But really, unless you were there to see it with your own 2 eyes you cant judge the level of competition the so called greats went into.

I am in no way hating on Chinaman. I question damn near everything, and we all know Garner could sell a fish scuba gear. LOL


YIS

the only ones that comes to mind are:
Earl
Lee Ling
Tom Tu
Cotton
Missy
Redman
Game Jane

[PIt4life]

cant forget Ch Dynomite, who is almost full bred Chinaman.

[ghost 1]

Chinaman made ROM with a relatively low amount of breedings. I would say his % were far better than Jeep or Frisco (both the top ROM dogs). It would have been interesting to see what would have come of it if he had been bred more. Much like "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie pop?", the world will never know :D

Regards,

B
lmao,,,,tootiesroll,,,, he didn't have to go that long but he crushed his competors and won so he had something,,,,whats the word,,,,,, oh yea,,, GAME------

[CB]

I think to question Chinaman's gameness is crazy. Chinaman was a game dog and never hesitated to scratch into a dog. He was nothing less then a complete destroyer. The best example of Chinaman's offspring producing is Ch Dynomite (even though he isnt directly off Chinaman). Ch Dynomite is one tight ass chinaman dog and became Ch within a 6 month period now that is pretty impressive. And he won his Ch i think last August and his offspring are still young but are said to be impressive.

[polecat]

[QUOTE=Mudville_Monsta]I'm curious to know how many times he was bred, and what were his percentages persay of how he through. Was he a relatively good producer who wasn't bred enough or to the right gyps, or was he a better athlete than producer? this is what i've been wondering and it is not spoken of much when he is brought up.[/QUOTE my dog is 1/4 chinaman and 3/4 honeybunch shes agood dog

[Marty]

You got a ped on this dog?

[B]

Tom Tu's papers were hung. TG said he never bred to Tom Tu's dame. The owner was caught in a big ol' lie.

Kind Regards,

B

[polecat]

You got a ped on this dog? ya robertson ch doc holiday to carpetmans rocka

[blkdog]

there was a good bitch called suicide that was here, off [chinaman/bolero]..now that was a good breeding..

[hillbilly]

Tom Tu's papers were hung. TG said he never bred to Tom Tu's dame. The owner was caught in a big ol' lie.

Kind Regards,

B
from what i have heard,PB had a bitch to be breed to Chinaman and when it was all said and done it turned out to be JB's bitch,and that's how PB got some of the pups that included Tom Tu,and they say that TG didn't know of this.
like i said this is what i have heard,is this the truth,i don't know.

[misterdogman]

from what i have heard,PB had a bitch to be breed to Chinaman and when it was all said and done it turned out to be JB's bitch,and that's how PB got some of the pups that included Tom Tu,and they say that TG didn't know of this.
like i said this is what i have heard,is this the truth,i don't know.Well we all know anything TG says is as good as gold...look what happened when he said "Let there be light"...

[Evil_Elvis]

lmao,,,,tootiesroll,,,, he didn't have to go that long but he crushed his competors and won so he had something,,,,whats the word,,,,,, oh yea,,, GAME------
No disrespect to the dog... but there are hard mouth curs whom have won in short order ecause they can get right in and crush but it doesnt make them GAME

[dmd66]

i would think, it would be easy to check and see if tg signed off on that breeding. (for the tom tu dog) my question would be how did these dogs get so damn big. what was chinaman pw 43lbs. the tom tu dogs are 45-70lbs



from what i have heard,PB had a bitch to be breed to Chinaman and when it was all said and done it turned out to be JB's bitch,and that's how PB got some of the pups that included Tom Tu,and they say that TG didn't know of this.
like i said this is what i have heard,is this the truth,i don't know.

[ROSE]

We Will Never Know If Chinaman Was Game Or Not He Never Had To Prove It But,he Did Produce And His Offsprings Produced.chinaman Bred To Showgirl Produced Mudturtle Mudturtle Bred To Misty Produced 2x Miss Turtle.chinaman Bred To Sally Produced Gr Ch Cobra, Cobra Bred To Hollywood Produced Gr Ch Nate,nates Sis Produced Ch Mauser.cobra Bred To Hannah Produced Buzzard According To Jk Was One Of The Gamest Ones He's Seen In A While. And The List Goes On.chinaman Would Be My Dogs Of Choice.

[SJBPolo28]

Not a fan of the Chinamen stuff for the simple fact that Snooty was a 2 quiter and that line is well known for its rough curness. I have never seen a chinamen or frisco dog that I like and probably never will.

[NOVICE]

To me the way to judge an untestable dog is through it's ability to produce. "the proof is in the pudding" so to speak.

[realonebulldog]

Pudding=Sperm or what?

[B]

Obviously you have never seen a good one then SJBPolo. We can go on about all sorts of BS about lines for days but the bottom line is you run what works for you. Until you've owned and fed a bunch from a certain line, you really don't have a place to be commenting one way or another about them especially in their entirety. Half the people that own dogs ruin them without the dog getting as much as a fair chance. The bottom line is that all lines that are kept gamebred have good and bad. No one has a perfect dog or blood or everyone would all run the same thing. I posted a list on a previous post about Frisco dogs that died dead game and went 2+ hours. I'm not going to list everything again but your post doesn't convey any facts about things. You have dogs in your own signature with ancestors that quit. You're listing a very general opinion about a line you obviously know little about. If you want to get specific then please continue to share some facts that back your statements.

Regards,

B

[SJBPolo28]

Obviously you have never seen a good one then SJBPolo. We can go on about all sorts of BS about lines for days but the bottom line is you run what works for you. Until you've owned and fed a bunch from a certain line, you really don't have a place to be commenting one way or another about them especially in their entirety. Half the people that own dogs ruin them without the dog getting as much as a fair chance. The bottom line is that all lines that are kept gamebred have good and bad. No one has a perfect dog or blood or everyone would all run the same thing. I posted a list on a previous post about Frisco dogs that died dead game and went 2+ hours. I'm not going to list everything again but your post doesn't convey any facts about things. You have dogs in your own signature with ancestors that quit. You're listing a very general opinion about a line you obviously know little about. If you want to get specific then please continue to share some facts that back your statements.

Regards,

B
I have personally seen at least 20 or so Frisco dogs go b4 and hated everyone of them. And I have been to Garner's yard 12 times and had kennel partners get dogs off of Dynomyte hickory tee Frank white and so on. So if I don't like a line it is beacause I have personally seen them go and quit or win in less than 30 and that ain't game! And with those winners your talking about I wonder what there outs where ?????????????? Keep it moving and I will keep my opinion and you keep yours. My blood works for me because I based my line off of gameness first not mouth.

[ChAnimal]

Not a fan of the Chinamen stuff for the simple fact that Snooty was a 2 quiter and that line is well known for its rough curness. I have never seen a chinamen or frisco dog that I like and probably never will.
Snooty quit? I thought he was picked up game?

[Riptora]

I have personally seen at least 20 or so Frisco dogs go b4 and hated everyone of them. And I have been to Garner's yard 12 times and had kennel partners get dogs off of Dynomyte hickory tee Frank white and so on. So if I don't like a line it is beacause I have personally seen them go and quit or win in less than 30 and that ain't game! And with those winners your talking about I wonder what there outs where ?????????????? Keep it moving and I will keep my opinion and you keep yours. My blood works for me because I based my line off of gameness first not mouth.
The ped under your sig. says :19 and :41. According to you that's cur time.

[short1]

The ped under your sig. says :19 and :41. According to you that's cur time.all I can say is almost all the great ones have dogs that have quit in there peds
bullyson, otis , bo, teals jeff , rascal , nigger ,china girl I could go on and on but there are a few but I think that covers all the major blood lines

[Iverson's Pits]

CRUSHING A COMPETITOR IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME IS CALLED "ABILITY, TALENT, ETC"....NOT GAME. GAME IS NEVER GIVING IN OR GIVING UP, NO MATTER HOW BADLY YOU'RE HURT, TIRED, OUTMATCHED, OUTWEIGHED, ETC. I AM A 'BELIEVER' THAT CHINAMAN WAS GAME, AND COULD HAVE PROVED IT IN A WELL-MATCHED BOUT WITH ANOTHER SIMILAR-CALIBUR BULLDOG....BUT NO ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE, UNLESS THEY SAW HIM SCRATCH GAME...WHICH I DONT THINK EVER HAPPENED....EVEN IN HIS GAME TESTS.



lmao,,,,tootiesroll,,,, he didn't have to go that long but he crushed his competors and won so he had something,,,,whats the word,,,,,, oh yea,,, GAME------

[ghost 1]

the dog obvisoely had something,,,and all who know,, knows, that out of a litter you may only get one or if your lucky 2 dogs that will be deep game,,just because it has the ped only gives the dog good back ground,,,but training and workin the dogs has alot to do with it also,,, it's all according to whos dog it is and how much time is invested,,,but some dogs just tend to have a nack for it,,,

[ghost 1]

CRUSHING A COMPETITOR IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME IS CALLED "ABILITY, TALENT, ETC"....NOT GAME. GAME IS NEVER GIVING IN OR GIVING UP, NO MATTER HOW BADLY YOU'RE HURT, TIRED, OUTMATCHED, OUTWEIGHED, ETC. I AM A 'BELIEVER' THAT CHINAMAN WAS GAME, AND COULD HAVE PROVED IT IN A WELL-MATCHED BOUT WITH ANOTHER SIMILAR-CALIBUR BULLDOG....BUT NO ONE CAN SAY FOR SURE, UNLESS THEY SAW HIM SCRATCH GAME...WHICH I DONT THINK EVER HAPPENED....EVEN IN HIS GAME TESTS.

oh i agree but he was a impressive dog,,,that put them down quick,,,

[STPFAN]

Let just appreciate the dog for what he was.....a high ability, hard mouth destroyer that never had to prove his gameness!

Was he game? Nobody will never know!

YIS

[NOVICE]

Pudding=Sperm or what?
Umm, That would be the offspring.

Somethin wrong with referring to sperm as pudding dude. I'm getting bad visuals on that one.

[SJBPolo28]

The ped under your sig. says :19 and :41. According to you that's cur time.Yeah but those were a quiter and game pick up. Now go back to that link and hit his litermate sister Vixen 420 and get back at me. I bred that sh-t and gameness is there. i can't help quiters and game pick ups but I can help what I breed and it will never include Snooty sh-t. Oh yeah there are quiters in my ped but not 2 time quiters!!!

[ROSE]

How Many Times Does An Animal Have To Have Quitters In Its Pedigree To Be Considered S_ _ T? What Family Have You Produced That Has No Quitters In It?just Curious Not Bashing.if We Were Not There To See All Of The Breedings Being Done In The Pedigrees One Really Doesn't Know How These Animals Are Bred.

[Riptora]

Yeah but those were a quiter and game pick up. Now go back to that link and hit his litermate sister Vixen 420 and get back at me. I bred that sh-t and gameness is there. i can't help quiters and game pick ups but I can help what I breed and it will never include Snooty sh-t. Oh yeah there are quiters in my ped but not 2 time quiters!!!
" So if I don't like a line it is beacause I have personally seen them go and quit or win in less than 30 and that ain't game! "
This statement is why I said that. I personally, don't care about time, but you stated anything less than 30 was not game. Your dog looks great and I'm sure his blood is good, I don't care what his family members are made of, it's what he is made of. I don't doubt your dog is great, it is YOU who said less than 30 is cur time.

[SJBPolo28]

" So if I don't like a line it is beacause I have personally seen them go and quit or win in less than 30 and that ain't game! "
This statement is why I said that. I personally, don't care about time, but you stated anything less than 30 was not game. Your dog looks great and I'm sure his blood is good, I don't care what his family members are made of, it's what he is made of. I don't doubt your dog is great, it is YOU who said less than 30 is cur time.Did you read my reply? My whole thing is that yes Chinaman was a good pit dog that can never be questioned. But he never went over an hour and so to answer the question you can't. I have seen many frisco chinaman dogs go and I don't like the line. ***EDITED for content: Careful what you say here. This is a public forum.--Mia***

[Riptora]

Did you read my reply? My whole thing is that yes Chinaman was a good pit dog that can never be questioned. But he never went over an hour and so to answer the question you can't. I have seen many frisco chinaman dogs go and I don't like the line. ***EDITED for content: Careful what you say here. This is a public forum.--Mia***Okay, you like what you like. I usually don't say much when there's talk about bloodlines. I just like giving you a hard time because of that comment you made a while back. It pi$$ed me off, so now I'm reluctant to give your comments any credit. Just being honest http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[SJBPolo28]

Okay, you like what you like. I usually don't say much when there's talk about bloodlines. I just like giving you a hard time because of that comment you made a while back. It pi$$ed me off, so now I'm reluctant to give your comments any credit. Just being honest http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Well I am gald you know your enemy. Just kidding, but I piss alot of people off, cuz it seems to be the very best way to get an honest opinion. sorry about that edited content Mia I do get ahead of myself sometimes. oh yeah which comment?

[B]

Yeah but those were a quiter and game pick up. Now go back to that link and hit his litermate sister Vixen 420 and get back at me. I bred that sh-t and gameness is there. i can't help quiters and game pick ups but I can help what I breed and it will never include Snooty sh-t. Oh yeah there are quiters in my ped but not 2 time quiters!!!LOL! There is no difference between a dog that quits once and a dog that quits twice. You're just making excuses now to avoid applying your same philosophy to yourself. How about trying to reflect your thought process on another line of Snooty dogs? What do you think about Gr. Ch. Spike stuff? Little Gator ROM? Those dogs have thrown some tough GAME dogs that have went the long distance. So what is so horrible about that line? I'd really like to hear this one considering that line of dogs is known for their remarkable gameness and toughness and is bred down off Snooty.

Regards,

B

[SJBPolo28]

LOL! There is no difference between a dog that quits once and a dog that quits twice. You're just making excuses now to avoid applying your same philosophy to yourself. How about trying to reflect your thought process on another line of Snooty dogs? What do you think about Gr. Ch. Spike stuff? Little Gator ROM? Those dogs have thrown some tough GAME dogs that have went the long distance. So what is so horrible about that line? I'd really like to hear this one considering that line of dogs is known for their remarkable gameness and toughness and is bred down off Snooty.

Regards,

B
For a person who has to quit is to lose on there marker I would not expect that from you. But those lines are known for their gameness but I believe it was both dogs outs that added that trait. In my experience heavy bred snooty dogs are very rough and have great mouth but that is not the game for me. I need my Redboys Jeeps or Bolios for my gameness. I just added the Eli for the punch even though there are a number of quiters in the route I went ( Maverick, Bullyson, etc.) and I will never have more than 25% of it in anything I own. If I offend you I do apologize but I have seen enough of it mixed many different ways and I am not a fan. Plain and simple. Now don't get me wrong I am a fan of an Ace caliaber dog just not the blood.

[TripleJ]

Guys that is what is so great about this game. You can use any thing you want and if you planed properly and saw the dogs in you'r dogs ped work you will have far better odds at reaching your goal. as far as was this dog game or that dog game, If he never quit and never was picked up then Id say he did what he was ment to (win) and that is what matters dogs that can win... My best dogs come from dogs that were given to me 20 years ago, Thay are still bred the same way today I only cross when needed To what I know clicks with MY dogs. I have tried new blood some turned out good , some didn't That does not mean that they would not work with the next guys dogs.. And belive me I have had most bloodlines. Not to step on toes I do not like redboy dogs But my good friend Has some killer redboy/jeep stuff that works well for him.. So he works with it (he just wont bring them over to play with me) lol... YIS ,J

[runt]

what line do you feed if you don't mind me asking?Guys that is what is so great about this game. You can use any thing you want and if you planed properly and saw the dogs in you'r dogs ped work you will have far better odds at reaching your goal. as far as was this dog game or that dog game, If he never quit and never was picked up then Id say he did what he was ment to (win) and that is what matters dogs that can win... My best dogs come from dogs that were given to me 20 years ago, Thay are still bred the same way today I only cross when needed To what I know clicks with MY dogs. I have tried new blood some turned out good , some didn't That does not mean that they would not work with the next guys dogs.. And belive me I have had most bloodlines. Not to step on toes I do not like redboy dogs But my good friend Has some killer redboy/jeep stuff that works well for him.. So he works with it (he just wont bring them over to play with me) lol... YIS ,J

[TripleJ]

Well I use my own dogs I guss you could say the are eli, carver , I cross out with Jeep , boyles. Boyles kind of like a old dog R&R used to have Crockett. And Pepsie well she was some hard arts missy, Bullyson. But Ive had them along time And I half ass know what to look for with them. The % of game hard hunters I get is high . It gets alot less tricky picking good dogs out of the same stuff you use all the time. I Think a lot of guys fall into the Got to have what is winning in sted of learning how to pick good ones and breeding what works the best to the best . I dont sell dogs or any pups. So I dont care what the papers look like any way. I try to make good dogs thats all.. Yis J

[powder925]

old thread ...but the best statment in it is this oneLet just appreciate the dog for what he was.....a high ability, hard mouth destroyer that never had to prove his gameness!

Was he game? Nobody will never know!

YIS

[runt]

I like the eli/carver stuff seems to go good with most linesWell I use my own dogs I guss you could say the are eli, carver , I cross out with Jeep , boyles. Boyles kind of like a old dog R&R used to have Crockett. And Pepsie well she was some hard arts missy, Bullyson. But Ive had them along time And I half ass know what to look for with them. The % of game hard hunters I get is high . It gets alot less tricky picking good dogs out of the same stuff you use all the time. I Think a lot of guys fall into the Got to have what is winning in sted of learning how to pick good ones and breeding what works the best to the best . I dont sell dogs or any pups. So I dont care what the papers look like any way. I try to make good dogs thats all.. Yis J

[Pitbull219]

So, this kinda brings up an interesting question in something I read recently. Dogs like Chinaman who have great ability and never having to prove gameness, is this good for the breed being that the number one breeding goal is supposed to be gameness? If people start breeding more for ability (mouth, wind, etc) will gameness be lost? To quote an old dog-man whom I can't remember off the top of my head "breed your game dogs and you'll get your winning dogs". What are people's thoughts on this?

[CrazyK9]

Well since this thread was brought back up...

as far as was this dog game or that dog game, If he never quit and never was picked up then Id say he did what he was ment to (win) and that is what matters dogs that can win... I completely disagree.
I know there are a lot of people into the breed that think a dog is great for winning, but that is not what is supposed to matter, IMO. I would put producing and gameness above all else. If you breed for mouth along with that, hey, thats fine, but a Ch title is not more important than a ROM (or even POR) and the ability to produce game offspring to me.

Chinaman may or may not have been game but obviously he produced some nice, game bulldogs. So, game or not, he made for good breeding stock. I could honestly care less about him being a killer in the box as long as hes a proven producer.

[TripleJ]

Well since this thread was brought back up...

I completely disagree.
I know there are a lot of people into the breed that think a dog is great for winning, but that is not what is supposed to matter, IMO. I would put producing and gameness above all else. If you breed for mouth along with that, hey, thats fine, but a Ch title is not more important than a ROM (or even POR) and the ability to produce game offspring to me.

Chinaman may or may not have been game but obviously he produced some nice, game bulldogs. So, game or not, he made for good breeding stock. I could honestly care less about him being a killer in the box as long as hes a proven producer.To each his own But I will tell you this I have bred every Dog that I had that was total Bad Ass and the pups off them were the same. And most were very game(most not all) I would have bred Chinaman to every proven bitch I have if I had him. Thats what I meen by you can do it how you want and I will do it the way that has worked for me. I Will breed a super game dog also But in the real world you need it all. Gameness, Mouth and speed. And I allway breed my best to the best dogs on my yard. Understand they are all pretty much bred the same So this works for me But if I have 2 littermates one is a straight up killer That can make short work of a hunt and the other has to stay in the woods all night You can damn sure bet I will breed the best one first to see if he can reprouduce himself . Thats just the way I do it. And I do not belive that just becouse a dog cant be tested he is a curr that might be what some think but I think if you test any dog hard and to long you will find you have one of 3 things a curr or a dead game dog or one that is only good for broodstock. The hunts are the real test. Yis J

[Caos]

well I had some experience with Chinaman dogs one of my Frisco/Chinaman/Spike dog was one of the best I ever had won over a RBJ dog 1xW in 1hr 37min.,we can see some won in 2hrs 11min.and some who lost over a 3hrs mark so I think some could be game they are not famous for be a deep game dogs but they could be game.

[getemcassius]

which dog would you put $ on the one that tries harder or the one who bites harder ?

[MinorThreat]

When I was new I cared about mouth so much but as I've matured I know that gameness is what really matters. I want a dog with mouth of course but theirs no shame losing with a gamedog

I'll put my money on the one who tries harder, meaning the game one. I'll lose my money on a gamedog anytime, thats what it's all about

[getemcassius]

any human with experience is combat sports knows it is no pirde in taking a beating to show how tough you are... game doesnt win skill and conditioning do

[CHATNJACK]

http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nLAAAAJANZPrA56DuDDAh9xjvCUHLoPwgT0q4wORh7 nNZBznOUEy7lF5vWAQU5uNI514vkzx4CVPsDuxrArwcZw

The views herein expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect those of myself nor the forum owner and should be viewed strictly as entertainment and for historical purposes only. I nor other forum owner either promote or condone any violations of the "Animal Welfare Act of 1976", or any other Local, State and/or Federal Laws.

[WWII]

which dog would you put $ on the one that tries harder or the one who bites harder ?
Breed the gamedogs, match the crunchers.

[getemcassius]

i agree 100 % you should breed for gameness but that doesnt make chinaman less of a dog ,the obeject of a match is to win , and when you match i want the better dog

[BoogiemanBlood]

the obeject of a match is to win , and when you match i want the better dogthat wasn't the question asked in this thread

[debodebo]

... game doesnt win skill and conditioning do You are out of your mind. Go ahead and keep your rank curs. They will blow through everything until they meet a game dog.

[14rock]

Where do people get the idea that talented, high-ability dogs cannot be gamedogs? WWII had a fantastic quote, and it is true as any quote, imo. Gameness first fellas, the rest can be added by a solid breeding program.

[davidlau_2002]

any human with experience is combat sports knows it is no pirde in taking a beating to show how tough you are... game doesnt win skill and conditioning do

true. but from a breeder perspective, i would say gameness is the hardest to breed for. breeding for the natural and unending willingness to "compete" seems a thousand times harder to reproduce than physical perfection. from a pure competitor standpoint though i see your point. that's why this idea doesn't directly translate to human fighting. if you fight like roy jones jr. before he tried for heavyweight, and breed yourself to a woman that is smart and stubborn as a mule then you will have some firecracker kids right? hahaha. see it's different when you compare humans to dogs in that way. but nonetheless, good luck!

[WWII]

You are out of your mind. Go ahead and keep your rank curs. They will blow through everything until they meet a game dog.I think what he was trying to say was "gameness isn't going to do everything for a dog that is getting the sh*t kicked outta him and can't do anything". He's not overlooking the gameness trait, but it's just what it is. You can take the gamest dog there ever was or will be and he won't be able to do anything if another dog guts him or won't let him do anything. The object of the game is to win. Gameness should be sought after, but don't always put your money on it. I'd put my money on a rough, hard biting dog that does a lot of damage before a dog that just has gameness going for him. But I would breed the game dog before the hard biter. Just like I said. You get your brood stock from the game dogs, and your money from the hard biters.

[Remo]

I think what he was trying to say was "gameness isn't going to do everything for a dog that is getting the sh*t kicked outta him and can't do anything". He's not overlooking the gameness trait, but it's just what it is. You can take the gamest dog there ever was or will be and he won't be able to do anything if another dog guts him or won't let him do anything. The object of the game is to win. Gameness should be sought after, but don't always put your money on it. I'd put my money on a rough, hard biting dog that does a lot of damage before a dog that just has gameness going for him. But I would breed the game dog before the hard biter. Just like I said. You get your brood stock from the game dogs, and your money from the hard biters.Amen to that. Gameness is like a foundation of a house, you cant build nothing without it! But to get a great house you really need something nice stacked on top of that foundation.

When it comes to Chinamans gameness we can make it complicated or make it simple, lets keep it simple! He produced some exeptionally game dogs! For example China Tom. Therefor it is likely that he possesed just enough of this key ingredient himself.

[14rock]

Whats everyones opinions on the idea of thinking that "they are all gamedogs until proven otherwise!". In our yards, its the exact opposite (they are all curs until proven otherwise), curious to hear some others opinion, since it relates to the thread at hand.

[getemcassius]

good point david lol.. good example

[getemcassius]

maybe i went a little from topic but it is my opinion that under the assumption both dogs are at least good game dogs ( why else would they be matched ) the dog in better shape with the mouth wins over just a game dog with an ok mouth and average conditioning
and i have a heavy chinaman female right now that has the wind of a greyhound super hard mouth and game to the core so id say shes not a cur ;-)
wwII im on the same path as you my man

[getemcassius]

14rock i agree with you peds, size, wind , mouth it all means nothing #1 first and foremost the dog wither has it or doesnt you cant teach game ... if a dog isnt game why bother putting it in shape

[Scotsman]

I agree with you 14Rock, every pup is born a cur until it proves its self as an adult.
What gets me are the people that don't care some much about gameness and are more into straight destroyers, a lot of people want hard mouth, get done fast dogs. To me that isn't the point, the point is gameness. I know a lot of people that run Chinanman/Frisco stuff that is game as hell, some of the gamest dogs I've seen.

[preme]

Well I use my own dogs I guss you could say the are eli, carver , I cross out with Jeep , boyles. Boyles kind of like a old dog R&R used to have Crockett. And Pepsie well she was some hard arts missy, Bullyson. But Ive had them along time And I half ass know what to look for with them. The % of game hard hunters I get is high . It gets alot less tricky picking good dogs out of the same stuff you use all the time. I Think a lot of guys fall into the Got to have what is winning in sted of learning how to pick good ones and breeding what works the best to the best . I dont sell dogs or any pups. So I dont care what the papers look like any way. I try to make good dogs thats all.. Yis J


well put bro

[preme]

why didnt he go for his 5th gd and did chinaman die in keep for gd..

[John Stompanato]

why didnt he go for his 5th gd and did chinaman die in keep for gd..
he was quite old and personally he had nothing to prove any more
i bet theres a bunch of ch's even 2xw that are worth as any gr ch dog

[RonJeremy]

it's been my experience that if u hold a dogs balls in both hands long enough, u will descend into the spirit world and the ghost of your great grand mothers first john will appear to u and reveal whether or not your dog is game.

[preme]

he was quite old and personally he had nothing to prove any more
i bet theres a bunch of ch's even 2xw that are worth as any gr ch dog



okay how old was he when he died ?

[slim12]

chinaman was bred quite a bit and produced with nice percentages. the reason he was not bred more was TG had frisco off of him. why breed your dog, when i can breed mine? Chinaman, Hickory, Earl, Earl Jr., frank White all put dogs on the ground down from the chinaman stuff. the only kicker is maybe half those dogs were then registered as frisco...frisco was registered so many times the adba refused to register any more off him. thus TG, formed the SDR....go figure..
as for the orginal post. I would have loved to own an animal of that caliber where his gameness never came in question. The entire idea of doing dogs before 1976 was to win....not test for the eventual debate on the internet...
s.

[PirbulBongo]

chinaman was bred quite a bit and produced with nice percentages. the reason he was not bred more was TG had frisco off of him. why breed your dog, when i can breed mine? Chinaman, Hickory, Earl, Earl Jr., frank White all put dogs on the ground down from the chinaman stuff. the only kicker is maybe half those dogs were then registered as frisco...frisco was registered so many times the adba refused to register any more off him. thus TG, formed the SDR....go figure..
as for the orginal post. I would have loved to own an animal of that caliber where his gameness never came in question. The entire idea of doing dogs before 1976 was to win....not test for the eventual debate on the internet...
s.

Tom got Frisco when Chinaman died unexpectly (sp), by then Frisco was 2 years old.

PS: And Frisco came from the same source as Chinaman, Vince Romeo.

[woody d]

okay how old was he when he died ?im not positive, but i think he was 11. he passed in jan of 89

[preme]

thanks woody

[preme]

he might have been we ll never know but through his off spring and there i would say there a pretty good game line but when you get both its scary gameness and mouth from hell this boys can crunch... and get done in short order thats what i heard lol...i got a good bit of frisco in some my stuff i love the drive and ability and of course crunch just keep a honest i best to best..

[Stookie]

Just look at his ped if it is correct then chinnaman should be just that a hard mouth killer,that should go the distance if and only if he needed to if you know his ped he had a mixture of both so in my op I think he could have possibly been deepgame maby even deadgame but the world may never know

[slim12]

You are accurate. TG had a business man mentality, vs. his previous owners wanting dogs that could win. Frisco had everything Chinaman had, but the desire to finish. He was there as long as the other, but he let up if the other did. Thus, he was sent to TG. That is where the Frisco was a cur stuff started many years ago. If he had the same desires as Chinaman TG would have only got him after retirement. Frisco was a beautifully bred dog that threw dogs that were rough and smart. I bred to Frisco back in the day, naturally. He threw me a few nice ones. I bred to him because of his bottom side.
TG in turn bred him a thousand times, even continued to breed him long after he was gone. The number of straws it would have taken is unbelievable. TG rode the bus til the keys were taken away. Then he created his own registry. TG has made huge contributions to the game, i will never doubt that, but, he has hung as many papers on dogs as any breeder out there. No other explantion. s.


Tom got Frisco when Chinaman died unexpectly (sp), by then Frisco was 2 years old.

PS: And Frisco came from the same source as Chinaman, Vince Romeo.

[preme]

slim if frisco was only 2 when tom got him he might not have been mature menitly as a finisher ..^^ you think alot of that puppy might have still been in him...ive had some slow starters off that chinaman line...

[Mike C.]

slim if frisco was only 2 when tom got him he might not have been mature menitly as a finisher ..^^ you think alot of that puppy might have still been in him...ive had some slow starters off that chinaman line...

I read a story that says Chinaman wasnt even matched til he was three, so that makes perfect sense. But I Have a pup that is through Elmo, he happens to throw early starters but i guess it varries.

[Caos]

I read a story that says Chinaman wasnt even matched til he was three, so that makes perfect sense. But I Have a pup that is through Elmo, he happens to throw early starters but i guess it varries.

the story you heard it's true and how a dog like Chinaman could prove his game?he was a destroyer no dog could hold him here a pic of him in old age.
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8324/garnerschchinaman.jpg

[preme]

thanks caos for the great pic!!!!!!!!!! can you pm me that thanks

[slim12]

that i do not know. i dont know exactly how old he was or when they struck the deal. maybe chinaman set the bar very high and frisco did not measure up, who knows? maybe chinaman did things at two that frisco did not... that was like a hundred years ago. LOL.. Frisco was a good dog and a great producer, that i have no doubt. Did his owner bend some rules and stretch some truths to get him where he is now as one of the all time top poiducers. i would have to say yes.
and for the guy who made the post about having one off elmo. i know a guy a few years back that carried a boudreaux skull/maverick/reno bitch to elmo. an entire litter of good dogs.. some slow starters some fast...but all keepers...
people keep dogs, move dogs remove dogs for their own reasons. i can't say why frisco didn't measure up at one place and deemed #1 stud status at another. one man's trash is another's treasure. i bred to frisco and was pleased with the results. i have seen dogs off of him that were nice and a few that did not work out. i won't trash a dog, especially one that has been dead forever. i liked what i had, but i do not see the same caliber dogs off that line today than back then. and that is not a knock on TG. as with any line everybody and their brother gets one and breeds it, then the watering down process starts coasting downhill...and fast...s.

slim if frisco was only 2 when tom got him he might not have been mature menitly as a finisher ..^^ you think alot of that puppy might have still been in him...ive had some slow starters off that chinaman line...

[preme]

thanks for your time bro ^^^ have a good day

[preme]

slim my boy got a daughter off frisco she ten r eleven and i just got a pup out of her ..
GARNERS MIA (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=157337)
LEAVY'S ROSCOE (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=304847)my pup

check his sire out to

[Mike C.]

that i do not know. i dont know exactly how old he was or when they struck the deal. maybe chinaman set the bar very high and frisco did not measure up, who knows? maybe chinaman did things at two that frisco did not... that was like a hundred years ago. LOL.. Frisco was a good dog and a great producer, that i have no doubt. Did his owner bend some rules and stretch some truths to get him where he is now as one of the all time top poiducers. i would have to say yes.
and for the guy who made the post about having one off elmo. i know a guy a few years back that carried a boudreaux skull/maverick/reno bitch to elmo. an entire litter of good dogs.. some slow starters some fast...but all keepers...
people keep dogs, move dogs remove dogs for their own reasons. i can't say why frisco didn't measure up at one place and deemed #1 stud status at another. one man's trash is another's treasure. i bred to frisco and was pleased with the results. i have seen dogs off of him that were nice and a few that did not work out. i won't trash a dog, especially one that has been dead forever. i liked what i had, but i do not see the same caliber dogs off that line today than back then. and that is not a knock on TG. as with any line everybody and their brother gets one and breeds it, then the watering down process starts coasting downhill...and fast...s.

The dam to my male is Elmo to his sister Lee Ling 2,shes a very intense dog great ability, above average mouth good all around bulldog. She crossed it into some six-bit with a little maverick he acts nice for such a young little dog, and others had to be seperated already. I have high hopes for him!

[slim12]

[quote=preme;346734]slim my boy got a daughter off frisco she ten r eleven and i just got a pup out of her ..
GARNERS MIA (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=157337)
LEAVY'S ROSCOE (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=304847)my pup

that should be an intense buldog. the wicked/ripper/el negro stuff is the real deal. if TVK put his name on it, it was a bulldog....top notch....the combination of the breeders in that pedigree is pretty awesome...beaudreaux, garner, Fat Bill, TVK....should be a go getter....s.

[preme]

thanks slim high hopes will see..lol

[preme]

The Chinaman name appears in many of todays pedigrees. His contribution a a producer equals, or exceeds his dominance as a performer. he had three sons go over 3 hoursin the same weekend...


not my words