ARRRGH Check out this URL...

[LuvinBullies]

This makes me sick to my stomach, and I am so sorry I share the same state with this guy. Check out this URL http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=84238061

All "protection training pits" and even a video of them under the title "attack."
I am refraining from saying anymore, judge for yourself everyone...

[NcPrisonGuard]

All "protection training pits" and even a video of them under the title "attack."
I am refraining from saying anymore, judge for yourself everyone...[/QUOTE]
Dunno.. I guess I don't have a problem with someone training their dog to bite on command..or defend his house or anything like that.. as long as its done by a responsible trainer and a responsible owner..but maybe I am alone in this. I've been told that APBT aren't guard dogs or attack dogs.. but the dog looked like it knew what it was doing. So as long as its done the right way for the right reasons..I don't have a problem. No different than training a german shepred or doberman to do it. In my opinion.

[catcher T]

All "protection training pits" and even a video of them under the title "attack."
I am refraining from saying anymore, judge for yourself everyone...Dunno.. I guess I don't have a problem with someone training their dog to bite on command..or defend his house or anything like that.. as long as its done by a responsible trainer and a responsible owner..but maybe I am alone in this. I've been told that APBT aren't guard dogs or attack dogs.. but the dog looked like it knew what it was doing. So as long as its done the right way for the right reasons..I don't have a problem. No different than training a german shepred or doberman to do it. In my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I am with u,,its actually very good control of a dog done right,,,like u said it looked right.

[PIT_DOMINATION]

i dont know. i mean a dog that is bred for fighting other dogs. shouldnt be trained for attacking humans. if bred it seems like you would end up with some very aggressive dogs. that no one could handle. thats just my thoughts on it. i also think protection is good but pits are already pretty protective over a loving owner. ive never trained my pit to protect me but it does. if you get aggressive towards me or my girlfriend. my dog will get aggressive with you.

[catcher T]

anyone that does protection training knows that this is not teaching the dog to be human aggressive,,to the dog its a game thats all,,any dog can do this,,just like any dog can be taught to fetch a ball. Its on command and control,,if a dog is getting aggressive on his own that is a loose cannon

[NcPrisonGuard]

I have considered going through the training with one of mine. There is a guy here who is retired from k-9 work he trained police dogs for 20 years and I've spoken with him about it. He said pits aren't really any different than training anything else, but he requires you to go through his basic and his advanced obidence.. then if he feels the dog is of the right mindset to be protection trained then he'll do it. My best guess is it would be almost a year plus of him working with the dog before he will do the training, and he says he's turned down many dogs based on their owners and not the dogs.

[purplepig]

This makes me sick to my stomach, and I am so sorry I share the same state with this guy. Check out this URL http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=84238061

All "protection training pits" and even a video of them under the title "attack."
I am refraining from saying anymore, judge for yourself everyone...
I am on dial up, so didnt see the video. My bulldogs have always protected myself and property. I tried several ways to train and raise them, and I have found the best way is to give them all the affection and time I can and they usually end up thinking that I belong to them, in the sense that they always look out for me.

If the dog is guard/attack trained well, that means that first it was very good at obedience. So a very well, cotrollable dog would be a candidate for guard attack training, which in turn would not equal an out of control man biter.

Once we let this young lady stay with us, and our dog,Amy, would lay all up in her lap. Well, after she had moved out, we came home one day to find the young lady in our back yard, bent over. She had overalls on(this was in LA, Lower Arkansas) and Amy had a hold on them between the lady's breast. She said she had been in that position for about an hour. Although she claimed not to have been doing anything wrong, I trust the judgement of Amy more than her word. I have seen several times that people would come over and the dog not think twice, but when they come over with the wrong intent, the dog sensed it, and it would not rest till the "culprit" left.

That being said, from the other replies(I did not see the video) the dog was controlled?
J

Oh, happy 4th all.

[MercedesMama]

He seemed to have the dogs under control. I really didnt see any problem with it. I just dont like the idea of having any dog trained to attack on command. My luck I'd make up some stupid command word and someone would just say it and wham....

[purplepig]

He seemed to have the dogs under control. I really didnt see any problem with it. I just dont like the idea of having any dog trained to attack on command. My luck I'd make up some stupid command word and someone would just say it and wham....
HA HA, Yea, back in my REALLY STUPID days(now I'm just in the dumb stage LOL) The first dog I trained to attack I used the phrase(you guessed it) "skit 'em"!! Well, one night at a woods party I left Max with a drinkin' buddy by the keg and while I was in the woods, I heard him going off!! I came back to find my drinking buddy skiing behind Max holding his chain yelling "stop stop"!! He was messing w/someone he knew that came upon Max sleeping and said,"aw, what a cute dog", well bud said,"Max, skit em!!". Man, I was a big dummy and the Lord was lookin' out for me as Max never had to "skit" anyone!!

Now, we invent a word.

J

[LuvinBullies]

HA HA, Yea, back in my REALLY STUPID days(now I'm just in the dumb stage LOL) The first dog I trained to attack I used the phrase(you guessed it) "skit 'em"!! Well, one night at a woods party I left Max with a drinkin' buddy by the keg and while I was in the woods, I heard him going off!! I came back to find my drinking buddy skiing behind Max holding his chain yelling "stop stop"!! He was messing w/someone he knew that came upon Max sleeping and said,"aw, what a cute dog", well bud said,"Max, skit em!!". Man, I was a big dummy and the Lord was lookin' out for me as Max never had to "skit" anyone!!

Now, we invent a word.

J
Well I'd be a liar if I told you our 12 year old pit didn't know the "skit 'em!" command we taught her years ago- I'd also be a liar if I said i never got a good chuckle from the looks on people's faces at redlights after we told dear ol' Natas to "skit 'em girl!". But I look at those days as being youthful ignorance (well- perhaps just plan ignorance, I was in my early to mid twenties), and I am thankful no one ever got hurt and my dog didn't pay the price.
The way I look at it, a credible dog training outfit that truly admired the pit bull and was privy to all the static surrounding the breed, would never post a video that stated "ATTACK" on it, involving pits. Excellent fodder for those in a mission to eradicate the breed if you ask me. A "protection training" school that had true knowledge backing it up probably wouldn't have to advertise such a video on Myspace anyway, and would only offer such footage to level headed individuals who showed genuine interest in their program.
As far as the "control" in the video- all professionalism was lost by the obvious machismo "Me-bad-boy-me-got-attack-pit-bull" image they were promoting, and I don't feel it lends any justice to what we all love and stand up for the breed for being. Did anyone truly get the feeling this "training" would be only offered to those who wouldn't abuse it? I certainly didn't, JMHO.

[bahamutt99]

Protection work bothers me less than their breeding goals. I guess its good that they're doing something with their dogs, but ew.

"Our breeding program strives to improve the bully style pitbull. Short stocky pitbulls with big heads while greatly improving the temperament of the pitbull. ... We only have the best blood from the best bloodlines. Razor's Edge bloodline is strong at our kennel, but we like to keep all the great bloodlines at our kennel such as Jeep, Garner's Chinaman and Camelot’s red nose's pit bulls. Camelot's bloodline is one of the finest red nose pitbulls around."

[NcPrisonGuard]

[QUOTE=bahamutt99]Protection work bothers me less than their breeding goals. I guess its good that they're doing something with their dogs, but ew.


I didn't look at their homepage. But I'd bet they sell their pups at about $1200, don't they? When I was shopping around for my female I had a lady send me a few pictures of some pups she had.. and they were beautiful dogs, but she wanted 1500 for them..makes my head hurt

[Sid Finster]

"Our breeding program strives to improve the bully style pitbull. Short stocky pitbulls with big heads while greatly improving the temperament of the pitbull. ... We only have the best blood from the best bloodlines. Razor's Edge bloodline is strong at our kennel, but we like to keep all the great bloodlines at our kennel such as Jeep, Garner's Chinaman and Camelot’s red nose's pit bulls. Camelot's bloodline is one of the finest red nose pitbulls around."
I was waiting for someone to bring this up. I can't see the video, but if they're breeding blues, then they've hit the BYB trifecta.

[raisingcain]

We Put Our Dogs Through Personal Protection Training And It Takes A Very Stable Tempered, Intelligent Canine To Be Able To Do It. Not Just "any" Dog Can Do This Line Of Work. A Dog That Is Good At This Should Be Recognized As A Positive Thing Not Negative. Jmo Rck

[realonebulldog]

This makes me sick to my stomach, and I am so sorry I share the same state with this guy. Check out this URL http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=84238061

All "protection training pits" and even a video of them under the title "attack."
I am refraining from saying anymore, judge for yourself everyone... income 250.000 and more....a month or what? LOL.....

[realonebulldog]

We Put Our Dogs Through Personal Protection Training And It Takes A Very Stable Tempered, Intelligent Canine To Be Able To Do It. Not Just "any" Dog Can Do This Line Of Work. A Dog That Is Good At This Should Be Recognized As A Positive Thing Not Negative. Jmo Rck N E V E R let a dog bite a human. If you get in danger your dog will do it natural...he will protect you. But never try to teach him man atak.And please dont use Pitbulls for this....there are other dogs like dobermans or rottis....

[sedaliapitbulls]

I really dont have a problem with protection training at all. I have a friend that does it and he is verry good at it. It dosn,t make the dogs human agressive. It actually is more like an obedience training. The dog will not go attack someone just because he is trained to attack. It is more of a protection training. for instance If you are getting robbed the dog knows how to take the robber down. Also it is trained not to kill or hurt the person it is more training for submission holding. The harder the attacker fights with the dog the harder the dog is going to bite. You really have to watch the training go on to get an Ideal of what it is. I think I am going to put any new dog of mine through protection training Like I say it is verry good obedience training aswell. Also It is controled.

[LuvinBullies]

income 250.000 and more....a month or what? LOL.....Lol- I noticed that too- the whole thing just seemed so puffed up to me, I truly question the integrity behind what they do. Especially if they claim to be raking in that kind of cash.

I guess I started this thread a tad on the abrasive side, I probably should have cooled off before I posted. I still feel strongly that advertising "attack" pit bulls is reckless and a complete 180 from how the bully breed should be portrayed, but I am not in any way bashing protection training if it is done correctly by someone who has a deep knowledge of the breed.

I've been wrong before, perhaps they are stand up fellows and not the wannabee Billy badasses I've made them out to be. A quarter mil yearly though? I'd love to see THAT facility!

BETH

[GSDbulldog]

If you want a guard dog- Get a guard dog. Not an APBT. End of story. Stable minded dog or not, the public won't care.

[purplepig]

Lol- I noticed that too- the whole thing just seemed so puffed up to me, I truly question the integrity behind what they do. Especially if they claim to be raking in that kind of cash.

I guess I started this thread a tad on the abrasive side, I probably should have cooled off before I posted. I still feel strongly that advertising "attack" pit bulls is reckless and a complete 180 from how the bully breed should be portrayed, but I am not in any way bashing protection training if it is done correctly by someone who has a deep knowledge of the breed.

I've been wrong before, perhaps they are stand up fellows and not the wannabee Billy badasses I've made them out to be. A quarter mil yearly though? I'd love to see THAT facility!

BETH
I agree with you that we should be very responsible about how our dogs are protrayed, and as I said, I was not patient enough with my click and wait to see the link.
If they made 1/4mil/yr it seems that they could afford to have a nice web site though. Instead of seeing their facility, they could just give me the 1/4mil and I'd be happy!!LOL
JK
J
<><

[pennsooner]

You kown, I have no problem at all with responsable bite sport for Pitbulls. But I do NOT like seeing them trained in PP. Why? Because first they are not guard dogs and second so few people know how to do that training right. Seems like a great way to just create a unstable, dangerous Pitbull.


I've heard more than once that since Pitbulls are not naturaly distrustful or leery of people that they are un-suited for real PP work.

To the dog (Pitbull) bite sport is a game. PP is no game, its for real.

[raisingcain]

Pits are capable of many lines of work and NO NOT ALL PITS will bite a human or protect you even if you try to train it too!!! The experienced dog trainers out there you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Here's something I found that says it better than I could.

Today the Pit Bull has evolved into a marvelous working and companion dog, used for purposes as varied as those it originally performed. Pit Bulls are employed as police/armed services dogs, search and rescuers, therapy animals, and livestock workers. They compete in all manner of organized dog sports, from herding to agility to conformation to obedience and the bite sports like Schutzhund and French Ring. They make loving pets for children and seniors, and everyone in between. The are indeed one of the most versatile breeds on the planet. Much of this is owed to the activities it once performed. The harshness and physical demands of the activities molded a strong, healthy, stable animal, one anyone should be proud to own.

I notice some keep mocking the prices of this guys dogs but why? You can't just train any pit to do protection work, police work etc.... If that is what your shopping for not everyone is going to have it. It must come with some sort of price don't you think? To each their own IMO.

[raisingcain]

PP work is not for everyone and certainly not for every dog. It takes a very stable tempered dog to begin with regardless of breed. Your shephards and Rotties are your people biters by nature and breeding practice so it is not the Pit to be scared of its the unstable Shephards and Rotties! They will bite you just because they like to!!!

[LuvinBullies]

NOT ALL PITS will bite a human or protect you even if you try to train it too!!! LOL, Amen! My adolescent pit is more of a flower-smelling Ferdinand than any kind of attack bull.

What's the saying: "Some pits make darn good watchdogs. They will sit right there and watch a burgular take everything you own." :o


BETH

[raisingcain]

I personaly love Shephards and Rotties. I have a Rottie bred soley for PP work and Shutzhund (German). I'm speaking from my own observations on the training field and experience with my dogs. I'd have to say he's more likey to make a mistake biting someone that my pit in reality. Just because my Rottie wants to bite ya, they are not as people friendly and yes very protective. MY pit truly loves people and is super friendly (good socialization is the key) but will go if someone is hurting us etc.... I'd have to say I think my Pit would have better judgement. My rottie I love to death but I worry more about him hurting someone than my pit.

[pepper_mommy]

luvinbullies, ferdinand!!!! that is soooooo funny!!! and i love that phrase!!! :)

raisingcain, i was in a family that bred, showed and trained rotties for 13 plus years and i would say that i think with rotties, its all in how you raise them, like most dogs. you can always get a bad apple HA dog, but a rottie is great for a protection dog....but usually doesnt bite the hand that feeds them. i dont know how old you are, but since you are big into rotties, have you ever heard of Von De Rottweilers based in cartersville GA? that was my families bloodline. i am only 23 so i cant tell you all the bloodlines and pedegries, but i could pull a bunch of stuff from my mom's house.

[raisingcain]

That is awesome! I can't pronounce any of the names in his ped, lol. His father was imported from Germany and his mother from working lines in the US. I"ll have to get it out. Maybe you will recognize something in there! Thank you. RCK

[pepper_mommy]

hey that would be cool if we owned an ancestor! :) you got a pic? we did a lot of german importing in our breeding. we actually sold a pick of the litter once to danny devito (the actor) lol, isnt that funny!!!

[raisingcain]

Here are some names for ya! CURE VOM WIESENGRUND. MATCHO VON BURGTHANN, MARA VOM OBERHAUSENER NORDEN, VOM OBERGROMBACHER SCHOLOSS, DASHCA BON BURGTHANN, AKI VON DER PEELER HOTTE, BIENE VOM OVERHAUSENER NORDEN....ON HIS SIRES SIDE. His Sire is Pink Papered.

What names huh! lol!

[pepper_mommy]

aki von der peeler hotte is the only one that sounds kinda familiar possibly?!?! now, say those ten times fast! HA! :)

[raisingcain]

Here he is, my big baby!
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/7MTHSsm1.gif

[raisingcain]

HERE IS HIS DADDY GUSTOFF IN ACTION!
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/gustoff.gif

[realonebulldog]

I personaly love Shephards and Rotties. I have a Rottie bred soley for PP work and Shutzhund (German). I'm speaking from my own observations on the training field and experience with my dogs. I'd have to say he's more likey to make a mistake biting someone that my pit in reality. Just because my Rottie wants to bite ya, they are not as people friendly and yes very protective. MY pit truly loves people and is super friendly (good socialization is the key) but will go if someone is hurting us etc.... I'd have to say I think my Pit would have better judgement. My rottie I love to death but I worry more about him hurting someone than my pit. You know thats exactly the point , most times a dog bites a human it is a typical protection dog and thats no lucky coincident because this dogs are born army or police dogs or in other words her genetic task is it to pin humans.....they are humancatcher. I know some people who are involved in Schutzhundsport here in germany and they told me time and time again how good that is and that this sport means no danger at all.....but I know how many dogs they put down because they went out of control.Dont teach a dog to attak people .....

[SMOKIN HEMI]

I don't see anything wrong with the show it seemed very organized. I think it is good to see the Bulldog in action. Need to take Smokey

[pepper_mommy]

now the top dog is a doll! the second one is so ovious german!! lol, they are like freakin bears over their!! :) whats up with the tail? i have been out of the rottie loop for some time now, is docking optional for show in germany? i dont know. he looks great though!! i used to LOVE watching the bite sleeve work, my favorite was the whole body suit though...that was great entertainment for us kids!! :)

[raisingcain]

Thank you, Caesar is our big baby, lol! A mommas boy all the way, lol. His daddy is awesome to watch!! I swear I'd rather get hit by a car than that dog!!! He leaps through the air to catch ya!! TOTALLY AWESOME!!! In Germany they do not allow you to dock the tail, that is one way you know he's imported.

[Riptora]

Protection work is NOT a game to the animal. If it were we would not need to seek out dogs bred specifically for this purpose, test their nerves and wait until they were 100% mature. You don't have to wait until maturity and test a dog to play fetch.

Here's a good link that breaks it down: http://www.leerburg.com/drives.htm

The reason so many "protection trained" dogs end up unpredictable is because they are trained and owned by idiots. A well trained dog WILL not pose a threat to the public and will be under 100% control of the handler. The cases of fatal dog attacks which resulted in animals "trained" in protection all had nothing to do with any clubs and the case of the woman with the 3 rotts that killed a 12 year old was kicked out of several clubs. I knew a "trained" gaurd dog (APBT) purchased from a "trainer" to protect my friend's frame shop. The dog growled, barked, stared and did not respond to his "off" command. He also chose to charge the throat and almost killed a woman walking into the shop after closing time. These sports/competitions are NOT as common as you might think in the US. Schutzhund clubs are growing, for sure, but there's a small handful of groups I would actually feel confident in. This sport is dominated by other countries and often have foreigners flown in regularly to educate the clubs ( such as the ones in my area ). Obedience training and protection training are worlds apart. There is a shortage of trainers who understand this type of work and offer their services regardless, which is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the old-time sport of matching dogs, there are only a handful that have the nerves to handle it. Handlers watch for "bad moves" just like in protection work. Just because you have a well bred dog doesn't mean you have a dog who can do the job. They could be imported from Mars but still need to be reasonibly tested at FULL maturity to even consider getting involved in this training. It's not a game, it takes a lot of friggin responsibility and serious work. They do tend to enjoy it, but it is very stressful, both physically and mentally to these animals. No one should even consider getting into it without knowing at least that.

[realonebulldog]

Protection work is NOT a game to the animal. If it were we would not need to seek out dogs bred specifically for this purpose, test their nerves and wait until they were 100% mature. You don't have to wait until maturity and test a dog to play fetch.

Here's a good link that breaks it down: http://www.leerburg.com/drives.htm

The reason so many "protection trained" dogs end up unpredictable is because they are trained and owned by idiots. A well trained dog WILL not pose a threat to the public and will be under 100% control of the handler. The cases of fatal dog attacks which resulted in animals "trained" in protection all had nothing to do with any clubs and the case of the woman with the 3 rotts that killed a 12 year old was kicked out of several clubs. I knew a "trained" gaurd dog (APBT) purchased from a "trainer" to protect my friend's frame shop. The dog growled, barked, stared and did not respond to his "off" command. He also chose to charge the throat and almost killed a woman walking into the shop after closing time. These sports/competitions are NOT as common as you might think in the US. Schutzhund clubs are growing, for sure, but there's a small handful of groups I would actually feel confident in. This sport is dominated by other countries and often have foreigners flown in regularly to educate the clubs ( such as the ones in my area ). Obedience training and protection training are worlds apart. There is a shortage of trainers who understand this type of work and offer their services regardless, which is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the old-time sport of matching dogs, there are only a handful that have the nerves to handle it. Handlers watch for "bad moves" just like in protection work. Just because you have a well bred dog doesn't mean you have a dog who can do the job. They could be imported from Mars but still need to be reasonibly tested at FULL maturity to even consider getting involved in this training. It's not a game, it takes a lot of friggin responsibility and serious work. They do tend to enjoy it, but it is very stressful, both physically and mentally to these animals. No one should even consider getting into it without knowing at least that.However I see no need for a sport in wich the task for a dog is to bite a human and dont let go....and if such a dog is good in his sport and goes with full courage on a human he will be bred in those rotti or shepherd lines.They bred humanbiters ....plain and simple! I cant understand that this is allowed while the selection over fight is not allowed.

[raisingcain]

I agree. You really have to know dogs and have a good trainer. It is not something you want to do to "show off" it is something that can save your life or take a life. Serious training for serious dog people. NOT FOR EVERYONE!!! Here's a pic of the training field we go to, the owners have been recognized for their training in Police, bomb, drug and protection work by People Magazine etc... for over the years 30yrs for their accomplishments and expertise. Our trainer studied in Holland and a few other countries......
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/training/field4.jpg
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/training/field_2.jpg

[pennsooner]

Protection work is NOT a game to the animal. If it were we would not need to seek out dogs bred specifically for this purpose, test their nerves and wait until they were 100% mature. You don't have to wait until maturity and test a dog to play fetch.

Here's a good link that breaks it down: http://www.leerburg.com/drives.htm

The reason so many "protection trained" dogs end up unpredictable is because they are trained and owned by idiots. A well trained dog WILL not pose a threat to the public and will be under 100% control of the handler. The cases of fatal dog attacks which resulted in animals "trained" in protection all had nothing to do with any clubs and the case of the woman with the 3 rotts that killed a 12 year old was kicked out of several clubs. I knew a "trained" gaurd dog (APBT) purchased from a "trainer" to protect my friend's frame shop. The dog growled, barked, stared and did not respond to his "off" command. He also chose to charge the throat and almost killed a woman walking into the shop after closing time. These sports/competitions are NOT as common as you might think in the US. Schutzhund clubs are growing, for sure, but there's a small handful of groups I would actually feel confident in. This sport is dominated by other countries and often have foreigners flown in regularly to educate the clubs ( such as the ones in my area ). Obedience training and protection training are worlds apart. There is a shortage of trainers who understand this type of work and offer their services regardless, which is a recipe for disaster.

Just like the old-time sport of matching dogs, there are only a handful that have the nerves to handle it. Handlers watch for "bad moves" just like in protection work. Just because you have a well bred dog doesn't mean you have a dog who can do the job. They could be imported from Mars but still need to be reasonibly tested at FULL maturity to even consider getting involved in this training. It's not a game, it takes a lot of friggin responsibility and serious work. They do tend to enjoy it, but it is very stressful, both physically and mentally to these animals. No one should even consider getting into it without knowing at least that.






With a good Pitbull in Protection SPORT you train the dog in prey/play drive. NOT in defense. They aren't Mals or Shepards. There IS a difference between honest to God protection work and dog sports like Schutzhund and French ring. I'm not saying its not hard work, I'm talking about the drive/drives the dog is worked in.

[catcher T]

yes,,it is a game,,just like tug of war or fetch,,its made to be fun for the dog,,no-one says u wait to maturity to start training,,I start training that puppy at weeks old,,I test a litter to see who has nerves of steel,,what puppy comes out to see what I am up to,etc..I never stop the puppy from biting throughout that biting puppy stage,,I might redirect what the puppy bites,,but never scold the dog for biting,,bite work is the first to start training in,,the obedience comes later,,anyone who understands the full process knows that it is all command just like any other command,,sit,,stay etc,,the dog sees all commands equal. a dogs mind is very simple. I have had dogs where I have had to build a prey drive in them,,,more work but can be done,,I have also had dogs that didn't have much of a defensive drive,,and need to build that,,with much work,,sometimes they have to be broke down and re-build their confidence in the right way,,yes u have to know what u are doing and know how a dogs mind works. u just have to identify what the weaknesses are and strengths and work from there

[mydawgs]

You know thats exactly the point , most times a dog bites a human it is a typical protection dog and thats no lucky coincident because this dogs are born army or police dogs or in other words her genetic task is it to pin humans.....they are humancatcher. I know some people who are involved in Schutzhundsport here in germany and they told me time and time again how good that is and that this sport means no danger at all.....but I know how many dogs they put down because they went out of control.Dont teach a dog to attak people .....
Guardian breeds are bred for all the reasons folks have stated here in the hopes of producing just 1 guard dog better than its parents, the EXACT same reason APBTs are screened to be bred in the hopes of finding JUST 1 offspring that can out perform its parents. The fact of the matter is that guardian breeds are bred to have human aggression with very high levels of obediance for recall and remote direction. Guarding and tactical police work is way more than a game for sure. Many guardian dogs fail at their task of breed just like APBTs although well bred perhaps cannot perform like their parents. Guardian breeds are bred TO DO THE WORK OF PROTECTION so they MUST be trained to attack any thing that needs to be stopped. That is their work!!!!

I have seen APBTs that have been trained for personal protection through severe leadership and obediance training. What I see in these dogs is an eagerness to do what it is told with all the vigor and tenacity the APBT breed brings to the table, but it is different when I see a GSD doing the same thing. It's like the GSD is performing for a different reason than the Pit Bull. The Pit Bull can attack the sleeve in one moment then be on your lap with big sloppy kisses in the next instance as if to say...well I'm done over there so how ya doin. I'm not sure I would want a GSD or a Mal coming off the bite to jump up on my lap, but I let an APBT with no worries what so ever. It was quite an experience.

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=mydawgs]Guardian breeds are bred for all the reasons folks have stated here in the hopes of producing just 1 guard dog better than its parents, the EXACT same reason APBTs are screened to be bred in the hopes of finding JUST 1 offspring that can out perform its parents. ok...the same with greyhounds or traildogs but from my point of view you realy cant compare Schutzhundsport to the REAL apbt selection. Selection with the help of the fight as an genetic task is a very old form of selection, maybe the oldest.To teach a dog how to attack people is not only dumb, it is dangerous and in terms of domestication it is extreme contraproductive and retarded. Just look at all the sick rottis, german shepherds etc. and then at the always, all the time, all the centuries strong and healthy Bulldogs.

[Okye]

I notice some keep mocking the prices of this guys dogs but why? You can't just train any pit to do protection work, police work etc.... If that is what your shopping for not everyone is going to have it. It must come with some sort of price don't you think? To each their own IMO.Nah it should not cost people a arm and a leg to buy a dog from working lines. Based on the fact that training cost so much and all of the time that goes into it. I have dogs that come from a line of APBTs titled in the sport of Sch/VPG. I did not pay one red penny for either of them. I made a promise to keep working them and that's what I have done. I sold one puppy for $400 bucks to a couple in ID and they flew all the way across the USA to get this little basterd. I had him priced at $800 but I would not take the rest of their money. They are a young couple who wanted a good dog and that's what they got. Here is the ped to the sire of their pup.

I wish I knew how to post photos on this board dammit

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=168379

[mydawgs]

[QUOTE=mydawgs]Guardian breeds are bred for all the reasons folks have stated here in the hopes of producing just 1 guard dog better than its parents, the EXACT same reason APBTs are screened to be bred in the hopes of finding JUST 1 offspring that can out perform its parents. ok...the same with greyhounds or traildogs but from my point of view you realy cant compare Schutzhundsport to the REAL apbt selection. Selection with the help of the fight as an genetic task is a very old form of selection, maybe the oldest.To teach a dog how to attack people is not only dumb, it is dangerous and in terms of domestication it is extreme contraproductive and retarded. Just look at all the sick rottis, german shepherds etc. and then at the always, all the time, all the centuries strong and healthy Bulldogs.
Your statement makes no sense to me perhaps a language barrier, I was not comparing the WAY one selects a bull dog for breeding with the WAY one selects a Guardian for breeding, my point if you can comprehend this IS both are selectively bred for characteristics desired in their work. Simple isn't it.

As far a training a dog to attack being "dumb" I know many a K-9 trainer and Military Police K-9 that would disagree with you, unless you are referring to Pit Bulls, like I said you need to be more clear.

[missybee16]

I feel it's time myspace had the plug pulled on them for good. Nothing but bad comes from that site!

[Riptora]

However I see no need for a sport in wich the task for a dog is to bite a human and dont let go....and if such a dog is good in his sport and goes with full courage on a human he will be bred in those rotti or shepherd lines.They bred humanbiters ....plain and simple! I cant understand that this is allowed while the selection over fight is not allowed.
It's all about preserving working dogs for military and police work, or any other work that benefits society. Not all the animals will work in these fields ( though a lot of them are sold to the government or law enforcement after training and titles ) but it keeps the blood going. There's also tracking and obedience involved and a great bond/communication between owner and handler.

CatcherT- I've been researching this for only a few years and am still young and have plenty more to learn, but I do have some personal experience. What I have learned as the correct way to train a PP dog is to start, like you said at a few weeks of age with bite work to increase and focus on drives. Like you said, an experienced person can select a working dog from a litter just by the animals interactions with new things, humans and littermates. However, I have learned that it is crucial to wait until full maturity to introduce the human decoy and work on the fight drive. It makes perfect sense to me.

I have met far too many dogs who have been imporperly trained and far less dogs who I feel confident in. It's a tricky subject and I hate the thought of someone buying a couple videos, reading some books and taking it on without professional help... there's nothing worse than a poorly trained attack dog IMO, so I'm sorry if I get all riled-up about it, but throwing around half a$$ trained PP dogs is a damn good way to promote BSL.

[catcher T]

starting bite work and introducing a decoy are two different things,,the bite work is the first thing to start with,,any puppy starts on what I call a rag bite and then a puppy sleeve and so on,,full physical maturity dosen't determine if that dog is ready for a decoy,, mental maturity is what determines that,,maybe 10 months or 2 yrs,,dosen't matter. I don't even work on anything else until that dog is sound on a bite and I know that dog wants to bite,,and dosen't shy away from a challenge.

[mydawgs]

Since I work in the area of security I have often wondered about something a pretty incredible trainer said to me as he was working with my female. He has a magnificent male APBT from proven parents, to the APBT standard. I have posted some of his video before. This APBT is trained to the teeth. Like I said he can tactically strike one moment and be in your lap kissing you in the next. He is a small explosive package, don't know his exact weight but I would say in the mid 40 range as he packs a lot of muscle. He is certified as a service dog, sooooo what if this dog had been on one of the planes (small, could easily fit in a seat vs a 100 lb GSD) that had been forced down on 911. I would theorize that plane might not have gone down as this dog is tactically trained and it is hard to intimidate any trained PP dog with a box cutter.......only food for thought - but I do wonder about this.