am staff vs. pit bull

[IslandTie]

how do you really tell the difference between a pit bull and a am staff?... correct me if im wrong but wherent they once the same breed or at least clasified as the same? and just food for tought... if they where interbred what would be the result..?
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[SLICK WILLIE]

The difference is game or not game and the only way to tell this is by testing. Which most huffers and puffers aren't willing to do! Amstaff is a breed all it's own because owners don't want to get their hands dirty and are lazy on top of that! Lack of respect for the breed has caused this outbreak of Amstaff, Staffie or what have you. Men worked had to make the dogs what they are today and others want to add their own bullshit swing to the dogs. Leave the job to people breeding for gameness and nothing more. I have seen more show dogs with issues than gamedogs and thats a fact. The ones that show up in the news paper are most of the time off of a show breeders culls.

Dont cross into non-game lines because the integrity of the gamedog gets weak or even dies out!

[devinben3]

Well words from Am Staff breeders say the reason why they bred the game(towards other dogs) out of them is because it's illegal now. The by far best hog dogs i know are AKC champion am staffs, they have high intelligence and are extremely strong, they're not fat and lazy like some people think they are...now, we all realize they have a different look to them, they tend to be heavy boned and very well muscled, but that does not take away from there ability, of course they're not like the game bred apbt...but they still possess great attributes...they are NOT the blue bluff everyone calls am staffs, those dogs are not anything near an am staff. Am Staff breeders are extremely careful when breeding to do all correct health testing, especially hips, eyes, cardiac, etc...on an am staff forum they are always bragging about the results. But just like every breed, your gonna get the backyard breeders, who don't care about any of that...but that goes for all breeds. But acutally the ones you see in the newspapers, are mostly the bluffs or backyard breeder stuff. When you get into show breeding, all am staff breeders i know are very careful when selecting...which the am staff is in no way an apbt so to speak, but they are still good dogs. I have to admit, that i've seen wayyyyy more am staffs that are more friendly towards humans than apbts...because wayyy too many people want to breed apbts so they leave all the temperment and all that good stuff out...theres not nearly as many backyard breeders in the Am Staff world as there is in the APBT world! Most Current am staff breeders started out with the game bred apbts, but it got to be too much of a hastle because of all the bullshit involved..But all in all, an am staff basically had the game bred out of them, as where an apbt should still be game.

[14rock]

At one time-yes, they were the same dogs. Today-not at all. Many times they share SIMILAR physical charectoristics, which leads distinguishing the two based on looks alone difficult. As a rule of thumb, Amstaffs are heavier dogs, with thicker bones, more square head, and basically to LOOK the part of a fighting dog, regardless of if they could do it or not. Amstaffs are generally bred around whatever fad is winning in the show rings, they are constantly "evolving" within their breed.

APBT bulldogs, are dogs that arent bred for show, and have the same heart and tempermant of their ancestors hundreds of years ago. APBT's are the warriors of old, with the right stock of APBT you could still hunt bears, and bulls, as they are kept very true to their original standards-of gameness. Any breeder that stands the test of time breeds for gameness, with no eye for appearance. Because of this, APBT's can vary greatly in looks.

Mixing the two? You get a MUTT! You wind up with an amstaff who probably doesnt look as good (in amstaff terms) as the pups would of if you went to another amstaff. Alot of people think "the perfect mix of show and go!" or "bred for looks, with just the right ammount of gameness thrown in!". This is complete bullshit from uneducated breeders, usually simply trying to peddle off more pups by reaching a wider base. You will usually get a dog that lacks the physical structure of a show amstaff, and a dog without the heart of a APBT.

[TRENCHHOUND]

good post i was thinking the same thing, lol get out my head
At one time-yes, they were the same dogs. Today-not at all. Many times they share SIMILAR physical charectoristics, which leads distinguishing the two based on looks alone difficult. As a rule of thumb, Amstaffs are heavier dogs, with thicker bones, more square head, and basically to LOOK the part of a fighting dog, regardless of if they could do it or not. Amstaffs are generally bred around whatever fad is winning in the show rings, they are constantly "evolving" within their breed.
APBT bulldogs, are dogs that arent bred for show, and have the same heart and tempermant of their ancestors hundreds of years ago. APBT's are the warriors of old, with the right stock of APBT you could still hunt bears, and bulls, as they are kept very true to their original standards-of gameness. Any breeder that stands the test of time breeds for gameness, with no eye for appearance. Because of this, APBT's can vary greatly in looks.
Mixing the two? You get a MUTT! You wind up with an amstaff who probably doesnt look as good (in amstaff terms) as the pups would of if you went to another amstaff. Alot of people think "the perfect mix of show and go!" or "bred for looks, with just the right ammount of gameness thrown in!". This is complete bullshit from uneducated breeders, usually simply trying to peddle off more pups by reaching a wider base. You will usually get a dog that lacks the physical structure of a show amstaff, and a dog without the heart of a APBT.

[circlekpits]

Ok, then if the Amstaff is so different and breeding the 2 would make mutts. just let me know which you think is the amstaff, "mutt" mix, and apbt. just out of curiousity. I have all 3 here in our yard. So no fair going to take a peek.

I know the gallery is for pictures but this is alot easier to have all 3 together.

[CominStrong]

I don't have any am staffs, nor do I want any, BUT DO NOT TALK OR PUT DOWN THE AM STAFF OR THERE BREEDERS! They are our biggest supporters against the BSL laws happening. I have been hearing about cases on BSL were only a handful of apbt breeders showing up to support and the other 95% being am staff breeders to support our breed at case hearings. That got my respect for them, so please don't trash talk them, they can be helping our breed out for future existance more than you think.

[roachwhisperer]

Ok, then if the Amstaff is so different and breeding the 2 would make mutts. just let me know which you think is the amstaff, "mutt" mix, and apbt. just out of curiousity. I have all 3 here in our yard. So no fair going to take a peek.

I know the gallery is for pictures but this is alot easier to have all 3 together. THE "MUTTS" 14 ROCK WAS SPEAKING OF ARE CALLED MUTTS BECAUSE OF LACK OF GAMENESS NOT APPEARANCE. IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF IDENTIFYING WHICH IS APBT OR WHICH IS STAFF BASED ON LOOKS. IT IS ABOUT PERFORMANCE.

[14rock]

Exactly roachwhisperer....there are generally some appearance traits, but not always hence, "which makes distinguishing the two on looks alone difficult". The fact of the matter is...looks shouldnt mean diddly squat in our breed as long as its not hindering performance. To amuse you however, I would pick the white/blue fawn dog as the APBT. The larger blue dog isnt too overdone that it couldnt be an APBT, and with a weight reduction program, it may look like a good representative of the APBT. As you can tell, I dont know. Amstaffs have been bred to still look like APBT's, albeit a bit overdone *most of the time*. Amstaffs were created for people who wanted the look of an APBT, without the heart, so its only natural they still look similar!

Someone mentioned the bluffs not being staffs. I understand they dont fit to Amstaff standards either, however, think about how the Amstaff began-breeding APBT's for non-apbt standard traits (large head, wide chest, larger in size). Although these bluffs are severly overdone (usually mutts) they were still created by the same method amstaffs were...just 100 years too late. I by no means consider these dogs to be good staffs, and I do think there are some nice staffs out there. However, in the simplest sense, a APBT descended purebred dog who was bred out of the pit, for exaggerated features for looks...is an Amstaff. Not by papers, but than again most of the dogs registered as APBT arent APBT either!

Comin strong- I'm not downing properly bred/worked amstaffs. Its not my cup of tea, but I still must respect the GOOD amstaff breeders. There are good and bad in both the Amstaff breed, and our breed, dont generalize and be irrational.

[Bullyboi]

APBT was bred for perfomance and Staffs were bred for looks. The middle def looks like a staff.

[davidlau_2002]

good point cominstrong. VERY good,

[IslandTie]

ok now.. brings me to my next question....pit bulls are bred for game... so how do breeders account for the gameness of a pitbulls?

[davidlau_2002]

please do a search on gametesting...

[Riptora]

Amstaffs are recognized by the AKC and any dog aggressive animals are not allowed in the show ring. This is another reason why breeders bred it out. They also don't want to have to worry about the kinds of accidents that are always discussed on this forum. They don't want the liability and they probably want a dog with many apbt characteristics but also want their dog in their homes with their cats, ferrets, gerbils, 2 other dogs and God knows what else. They don't care about game, they love many characteristics of the breed and have no need for the sporting temperment. I am sure they make wonderful pets and are one of the better breeds available to show today.

It's all about preference and lifestyle.

[ChAnimal]

Amstaffs are recognized by the AKC and any dog aggressive animals are not allowed in the show ring. This is another reason why breeders bred it out. They also don't want to have to worry about the kinds of accidents that are always discussed on this forum. They don't want the liability and they probably want a dog with many apbt characteristics but also want their dog in their homes with their cats, ferrets, gerbils, 2 other dogs and God knows what else. They don't care about game, they love many characteristics of the breed and have no need for the sporting temperment. I am sure they make wonderful pets and are one of the better breeds available to show today.

It's all about preference and lifestyle.
Id ike to clear something up here, just because its a pitbull it doesnt mean it wont get along with cats and other dogs, that is total bs.

[circlekpits]

APBT was bred for perfomance and Staffs were bred for looks. The middle def looks like a staff.Well The middle one isn't the Staff. The last is the staff.

Yes the AKC helps towards the BSL in all areas. But I guess my point would be that it doesn't matter which one is which but that they are all targeted the same in the eyes of the public. Also they might not like to think that the AMSTAFF is dog aggressive but guess what you can only try to take it out but it normally doesn't work at all. They all are basically the same animal regardless of the registry. If you aren't breeding for the color or size of the animal. I have quite a few of both AMSTAFF and APBT and would never dream that we would have such debate over if it is game or not. All of mine have the drive I am looking and willingness to go to all ends to do as I ask.

[ikidmyself]

ALL THOSE PICS LOOK LIKE AMSTAFF TO ME BUT WHAT DO i KNOW

[ABK]

There are two trains of thought on the APBT/AST thing. One holds they have been bred to different standards & thus are different breeds. Another holds they are the different strains (working vs. show) of the SAME breed.

While others might disagree, I myself am of the latter mind. APBTs & ASTs go back to the same rootstock & no other breed has been mixed in to create the AST. An AST is just an APBT that has been selectively bred for the AKC show ring. After all, if they were different breeds, the ADBA sure as heck wouldn't register them as APBTs!

In other work-based breeds like coonhounds, beagles, cockers, setters & even in breeds like even rotties, shepherds & dobies show dogs aren't considered different breeds from the working dogs even though type & drive differ. So far as I know, only the APBT/AST fanciers consider their show stock a different breed from their working stock.

So why the different breed debate in APBTs? APBT owners scorn ASTs & their fanciers b/c of the deliberate breeding away from gameness. In return AST owners scorn APBTs & their fanciers b/c of the riff-raff ways & image some APBT owners project. IMO the different breed theory has nothing to do w/ the dogs themselves, but more the attitude of the owners.

JMHO ... :rolleyes:

(Oh & before anyone asks, while I believe APBTs/AST are just different strains of the same breed, I do NOT endorse the breeding of APBT x AST. A type has been established for each & interbreeding will only produce a dog of intermediate type, not a game as a working APBT & not as conformationally correct to the AKC standard as a show AST. I think the two should remain spererate, work bred to work & show bred to show.)

[bdub]

am staffs are shorter than apbt's too

[Ja-net]

Actually they are the same breed bred for different standards or traits.

[circlekpits]

am staffs are shorter than apbt's too
huh? or are you thinking the staffie bull? They are the same height as the apbt for conformation standards.

[devinben3]

There are two trains of thought on the APBT/AST thing. One holds they have been bred to different standards & thus are different breeds. Another holds they are the different strains (working vs. show) of the SAME breed.

While others might disagree, I myself am of the latter mind. APBTs & ASTs go back to the same rootstock & no other breed has been mixed in to create the AST. An AST is just an APBT that has been selectively bred for the AKC show ring. After all, if they were different breeds, the ADBA sure as heck wouldn't register them as APBTs!

In other work-based breeds like coonhounds, beagles, cockers, setters & even in breeds like even rotties, shepherds & dobies show dogs aren't considered different breeds from the working dogs even though type & drive differ. So far as I know, only the APBT/AST fanciers consider their show stock a different breed from their working stock.

So why the different breed debate in APBTs? APBT owners scorn ASTs & their fanciers b/c of the deliberate breeding away from gameness. In return AST owners scorn APBTs & their fanciers b/c of the riff-raff ways & image some APBT owners project. IMO the different breed theory has nothing to do w/ the dogs themselves, but more the attitude of the owners.

JMHO ... :rolleyes:

(Oh & before anyone asks, while I believe APBTs/AST are just different strains of the same breed, I do NOT endorse the breeding of APBT x AST. A type has been established for each & interbreeding will only produce a dog of intermediate type, not a game as a working APBT & not as conformationally correct to the AKC standard as a show AST. I think the two should remain spererate, work bred to work & show bred to show.)
Good post! :) I agree with you!

[SoColdsBaby]

I sorry but, i keep seeing that APBT were not breed for show then why? does ADBA hold Shows.? Are the APBT in the show rings AST? I don't think so An breed with a respectable Kennel Club Does shows. So the Pit bull breeders should not just be breeding for gameness but Conformation of the breed and those Breeders who do are not worthy APBT breeder ? I think one who breeds for the whole dog is the best. The APBT is a saivuor going from one feild to another instead of dieing out when bull baiting and fighting became illegal. They were breed for the show ring, Civil work ect.. I know two that are Search and Rescue Dogs and do wonderful. I am not saying the AST and The APBT are the same because with wonderful breed they are two different breed ask any AKC worker and they will tell you but, they are still both wonderful dogs and any dog can be shown or hunt if trained right. One of the best bear Dogs i ever saw was APBT and a Bloodhound mix it was a mutt but, he was wonderful. I have seen crosses between the two and seen some i would put down to be nice and others that were wonderfully breed and made great pets I would never cross breed and breed with another but it is how todays breeds were made.

[cary-dude]

ABK nailed it , The issue seams to be between the owners more than the dogs, game or not game--I'm not fighting my dogs so Why does game have to be so damn important? I totally respect every lat person on here, But sometimes it does seem as though the inportance of game is needed more for fighting than just being the owner of a beautiful animal that has loyalty traits above and beyond alot of other breeds. I just don't understand how you can make two different breeds of dog without first introducing a seperate breed.

[pennsooner]

ABK nailed it , The issue seams to be between the owners more than the dogs, game or not game--I'm not fighting my dogs so Why does game have to be so damn important? I totally respect every lat person on here, But sometimes it does seem as though the inportance of game is needed more for fighting than just being the owner of a beautiful animal that has loyalty traits above and beyond alot of other breeds. I just don't understand how you can make two different breeds of dog without first introducing a seperate breed.






The answer to your last question is easy. Breed along different lines for different outcomes. IMO, they are seperate breeds, although closely related. And this happens with all sorts of other dogs. The Border Collie just got recongnized by AKC in the last 10 years or so. And alread the show dogs are starting to look VERY different from the working dogs. The working dog people call the show dogs "Barbie Collies". Muzzle shorter, face broader, eyes bigger, more of a "puppy face", lusher coat. All in ten years. The same thing has been going on for 70 some odd years with Pitbulls and AmStaffs. And thats just apperance, it says nothing of working drives and the divergence there is even more pronouced.

[SLICK WILLIE]

I understand what your talking about. Amstaff breeders test health and such because its a tax write off at the end of the year! Its a biz!!! Breeding for gameness is one thing but breeding for anything else is a money racket. I've heard the justifications that some Amstaff breeders give for breeding and showing and it still ain't the right reason to do it. As for hog dogs APBT'S are just as good if not better catch dogs than amstaffs are. I have dogs on the yard that come from Rufus/Chinaman crosses that catch with ease!

Well words from Am Staff breeders say the reason why they bred the game(towards other dogs) out of them is because it's illegal now. The by far best hog dogs i know are AKC champion am staffs, they have high intelligence and are extremely strong, they're not fat and lazy like some people think they are...now, we all realize they have a different look to them, they tend to be heavy boned and very well muscled, but that does not take away from there ability, of course they're not like the game bred apbt...but they still possess great attributes...they are NOT the blue bluff everyone calls am staffs, those dogs are not anything near an am staff. Am Staff breeders are extremely careful when breeding to do all correct health testing, especially hips, eyes, cardiac, etc...on an am staff forum they are always bragging about the results. But just like every breed, your gonna get the backyard breeders, who don't care about any of that...but that goes for all breeds. But acutally the ones you see in the newspapers, are mostly the bluffs or backyard breeder stuff. When you get into show breeding, all am staff breeders i know are very careful when selecting...which the am staff is in no way an apbt so to speak, but they are still good dogs. I have to admit, that i've seen wayyyyy more am staffs that are more friendly towards humans than apbts...because wayyy too many people want to breed apbts so they leave all the temperment and all that good stuff out...theres not nearly as many backyard breeders in the Am Staff world as there is in the APBT world! Most Current am staff breeders started out with the game bred apbts, but it got to be too much of a hastle because of all the bullshit involved..But all in all, an am staff basically had the game bred out of them, as where an apbt should still be game.

[14rock]

If they all descend from the same stock and are the same breed then, arent our dogs really just wolves? All dogs descend from a stock of captive wolves, so in theory, a poodle is the same dog as a Mastiff, a Lab is the same as a Great Pyrennes, a APBT same as an Amstaff. They have the same ancestors somewhere, but it doesnt make them even identical after selective breeding! For a few years after the Amstaff inception, I would of bought into the theory that they were essentially the same dogs. However, with each generation, they grow apart. The generation gap is so large now that it is a new breed IMO.

Socoldsbaby-no APBT's are NOT a show breed! They are a working breed, and the only purpose of conformation shows in a working breed is to get out and meet other bulldog owners and show how conformationally correct your WORKING dogs are. Anybody breeding "APBT's" for the show ring, is not breeding APBT's at all-they are breeding first-generation Amstaffs.

[roachwhisperer]

The Reason Gameness Is Emphasized So Much Is Because Game Dogs Behave Differently From Non-game In Overall Behavior. Pit Or No Pit You Have A Different Animal Entirely. Golden Retrievers Are Fascinated By Flying Objects. Breed Them To Look Like Retrievers Without Performance Take Them Home And........you Have A Retriever Looking Animal That Will Not Only Not Retrieve.. He Will Very Likely Not Be Near As Human Friendly As Working Retrievers. You May As Well Not Have A Retriever!! Another Thing...as Slick Willie Said...amstaff Breeding Becomes A Money Racket That Follows The Fad Of The Year. Block Heads,shorter,wider, Etc.......

[devinben3]

I understand what your talking about. Amstaff breeders test health and such because its a tax write off at the end of the year! Its a biz!!! Breeding for gameness is one thing but breeding for anything else is a money racket. I've heard the justifications that some Amstaff breeders give for breeding and showing and it still ain't the right reason to do it. As for hog dogs APBT'S are just as good if not better catch dogs than amstaffs are. I have dogs on the yard that come from Rufus/Chinaman crosses that catch with ease!
I know what your talking about. And i agree with you, in my eyes the apbt and ast are not the same for obvious reasons...not just looks alone. there are plenty of game apbts who look like am staffs or whippets or whatever, they come in many sizes and shapes...because they were bred for game and not look. I have apbts that catch with ease also. It's just hard because we have bay dogs and i just don't trust my game apbts not to jump on them rather than the hog...but with the am staffs, you don't have to worry about a dog fight going down. All in all, both apbts and ast's are good dogs, just bred for different reasons. Am staffs arn't as big as most people think they are though. in the akc shows around here, a correct male is 65 lbs and very muscled with no fat...and about 55 for the females. they arn't shorter than apbts either, not sure who said that. But ya, basically am staffs were bred for temperment, intelligence, and looks...so thats the show ring. But just like any breed these days, show dogs are running around everywhere and nothing is gonna change that. There really isn't any good registry to show your game bred apbts with, because they don't really have standards...the shows i've been to, they wern't consistant with what they liked...you can't just look at a dog and tell he's game, wheter he's barking and lounging at the dog next to him or what not....hell, even some am staffs do that if you let them, they were just trained not to. and if all the game apbt owners are so concerned about the breed, then why are there mostly am staff owners and breeders involved in stopping bsl? I love the game bred apbt more than any other breed, however i do like the am staffs, but for different reasons.

[Riptora]

Id ike to clear something up here, just because its a pitbull it doesnt mean it wont get along with cats and other dogs, that is total bs.You're right, but I'm speaking as far as what a person is looking for when they are searching for "their breed" of dog. If you get my jist. Amstaff breeders breed out this quality while many apbt breeders keep it because it's a hunting dog.

14Rock is right about all dogs are brewed from the same beans. All dogs are decended from wolves and research shows that it does not take long AT ALL for a breed to evolve. For example, I find it incredible that a domesticated pig, I mean a pink, almost hairless, tuskless pig will evolve into a full fledged boar in only one season of living in the wild ( I learned this while watching the discovery channel about the largest boar killed) within this very short time period the pig will turn grey, grow lots of hair and tusks.

Another very cool example was a woman in England who farmed silver foxes. She farmed them for fur but thought it would be great to breed them for pets, because they are so darn cute! So she selected the most docile foxes and within only a few generations (about 3 or 4) the foxes started changing physically. One had floppy ears, one had NO tail and one was white with spots. I saw this on a program about dogs and now you can see how easily one can change a breed.

[findrodhere]

You're right, but I'm speaking as far as what a person is looking for when they are searching for "their breed" of dog. If you get my jist. Amstaff breeders breed out this quality while many apbt breeders keep it because it's a hunting dog.

14Rock is right about all dogs are brewed from the same beans. All dogs are decended from wolves and research shows that it does not take long AT ALL for a breed to evolve. For example, I find it incredible that a domesticated pig, I mean a pink, almost hairless, tuskless pig will evolve into a full fledged boar in only one season of living in the wild ( I learned this while watching the discovery channel about the largest boar killed) within this very short time period the pig will turn grey, grow lots of hair and tusks.

Another very cool example was a woman in England who farmed silver foxes. She farmed them for fur but thought it would be great to breed them for pets, because they are so darn cute! So she selected the most docile foxes and within only a few generations (about 3 or 4) the foxes started changing physically. One had floppy ears, one had NO tail and one was white with spots. I saw this on a program about dogs and now you can see how easily one can change a breed.Boars go into a feral state within three weeks of being in the wild (they grow hair and their babies can have tusks, they, themselves will not grow tusks).

Geneticist Dmitry K. Belyaev is responsible for the silver fox experiment in Russia. It took about 15-20 generations to produce a high percentage of human friendly animals, the "domesticated elite" they were called. But yes, changes in form occurred very quickly (big, small, floppy ears, different colors and so on).

[Riptora]

Boars go into a feral state within three weeks of being in the wild (they grow hair and their babies can have tusks, they, themselves will not grow tusks).

According to the TV special I watched, they stated what I stated earlier that adult pigs transform including tusks within this short time frame. I personally wouldn't know because I don't have pigs or watch them. I thought it sounded pretty incredible.

Geneticist Dmitry K. Belyaev is responsible for the silver fox experiment in Russia. It took about 15-20 generations to produce a high percentage of human friendly animals, the "domesticated elite" they were called. But yes, changes in form occurred very quickly (big, small, floppy ears, different colors and so on).That was probably a different experiment because I saw that particular special a few times and it was not a scientist in Russia. It was a woman on a farm ( I'm almost posative it was England) who was not researching anything. Perhaps she sparked quite an interest and so the scientist actually conducted a true experiment on the issue.

Either way, it's clear that it doesn't take much to alter an animal's physical appearance
.

[SLICK WILLIE]

No pun intended! I know about the BSL and the lack of fighting it is a concern. I would say the reason doggers don't go there is that it draws unwanted attention to them and folks coming around if word leaks that they have gamebred dogs! You hafta to feel the pain from all sides I guess and deal with things as they come along man. Well, if we say were going to stop driving fords because they are going to outlaw them in the next year. Now we will drive other cars that just look like them. Folks would take off the name and put a new name to it and go on. Others would say! Hey ain't that a ford? Why No! Its a Chevyotavette that I built myself from different cars! Point is! This will always be an issue and Showbie's and doggers ain't going to see I to I on. We need to call it what it is. If it's a show dog then thats it. If it's a gamedog call it a gamedog not an APBT because they are showing more in the circle than in the boxcar!

I know what your talking about. And i agree with you, in my eyes the apbt and ast are not the same for obvious reasons...not just looks alone. there are plenty of game apbts who look like am staffs or whippets or whatever, they come in many sizes and shapes...because they were bred for game and not look. I have apbts that catch with ease also. It's just hard because we have bay dogs and i just don't trust my game apbts not to jump on them rather than the hog...but with the am staffs, you don't have to worry about a dog fight going down. All in all, both apbts and ast's are good dogs, just bred for different reasons. Am staffs arn't as big as most people think they are though. in the akc shows around here, a correct male is 65 lbs and very muscled with no fat...and about 55 for the females. they arn't shorter than apbts either, not sure who said that. But ya, basically am staffs were bred for temperment, intelligence, and looks...so thats the show ring. But just like any breed these days, show dogs are running around everywhere and nothing is gonna change that. There really isn't any good registry to show your game bred apbts with, because they don't really have standards...the shows i've been to, they wern't consistant with what they liked...you can't just look at a dog and tell he's game, wheter he's barking and lounging at the dog next to him or what not....hell, even some am staffs do that if you let them, they were just trained not to. and if all the game apbt owners are so concerned about the breed, then why are there mostly am staff owners and breeders involved in stopping bsl? I love the game bred apbt more than any other breed, however i do like the am staffs, but for different reasons.

[dustinp87]

very simple am staffs r pits that have had the gameness bred out of them for show use and they were the same bred a long long time ago