"Working Pit Bulls"

[mdknaly]

What do folks think aboutthose guys who use their APBT's in those competitions where they try to take off people's arms? You know like police dogs? Personally I don't get it and the pictures they post could help to portray the APBT in a very negative way. Plus, it's not what the dog is meant to do... they are not human aggressive.. Any thoughts????

[catcher T]

I have not used an APBT for this type of training as of yet,,imo,,any dog,,depending on size,,can be used for protection work or ring sport,,its not about human aggression,,to the dog its all a game,,I would not hesitate to use an APBT,,it may be negative to the non dog training person,,but,,to the trainers APBTs are quit impressive in ring sport and protection work

[jeeperino]

Why would you want to??? There are MANY different breeds MUCH better suited for the job.

[mdknaly]

My sentiments jeeperino. They kicked me off their board because I was open to debate the topic. It a board called "Working pit BULLetin". I wasn't rude, didn't curse etc.. Damn Jackbooted Nazi's!

[pennsooner]

Although I doubt its the popular answer here I see nothing wrong with it, IF its done by a reputable organization(not some fly-by-night street org).

Why? Because among people that know dogs it puts Pitbulls in a good light because the obedience required is at a high level. If done right a very high level of obedence is established before bite work is done. The dogs and trainers need a high level of precision and control to do well. Its not just about hitting the sleve hard.

I'd love to do it. I'd need a different dog, mines too old and soft, and there are no trainers I'd want to work with around Pittsburgh that I'm aware of. My understanding is you have to work Pitbulls differently than the herding breeds, the Pitbulls have to be worked in prey/play drive so from the dogs point of view its a big game.

[bahamutt99]

If you're talking about training for Schutzhund and Ring competitions, or personal protection training by an experienced trainer, I don't see anything wrong with it. (Some people go into it with no knowledge, jump right into bitework and make a mess of their dog. That's why I said experienced.) Yes, there are other breeds that can do it and have done it historically, but that's no real reason why the APBT can't or shouldn't.

I understand when people say that its bad for the breed's image. But let's be honest. When was the last time a French Ring dog went on a rampage? Its not the well-trained Schutzhund dogs that are mauling kids, its the untrained dogs, or dogs trained to be aggressive without instilling control. Its also worth noting that cities aren't moving to ban Dutch Shepherds, Belgian Malinois, or other breeds who are typically used in bitework.

Its a sport, like anything else. A person looking to see something negative will see it in all things. One last thing; they don't train the dogs to "take people's arms off." Most of those competitions involve complex obedience and/or tracking, and the handler protection is just a part of it. (Done correctly, the dog views the bitework as a game.)

[mdknaly]

I guess most are missing what I meant in my original post. So, let me rephrase it: Do you think that the pictures of dogs jumping in the are in aggressive (albiet controlled) manner are good for the image of our breed, do you think the pictures could be used in a negative way by the BSL people???? And if you do not think that one of those dogs will do serious damage to a persons arm then I believe you have never seen a police dog in action. Imagine if that protection thing wasn't on the persons arm???

[kensloft]

What do folks think aboutthose guys who use their APBT's in those competitions where they try to take off people's arms? You know like police dogs? Personally I don't get it and the pictures they post could help to portray the APBT in a very negative way. Plus, it's not what the dog is meant to do... they are not human aggressive.. Any thoughts????
Walking Zeus is a pure treat as well as pure exercise.
It starts with the moment that he thinks or knows that he is about to go out!
The tail starts to, excitedly, whip back and forth, bumping and hitting anything within striking radius.

Getting the leash on was a demanding task of being able to control the happy, bouncing puppy long enough to snap the leash's clasp onto his collar.
It was after years of laughs and comments about the bouncing pit bulls that I realized that if I removed his collar with the leash attached to it, then, I would be able allow him, as he had shown me, to push his head into the (chain:not choke chain) opening and we would be out the door,
much to our surprises, that much faster.

Less work but the 'happy puppy'is,nonetheless, still bouncing around all over the place.

Once we hit the street: the first 250-300 yards are him pulling this slow human.
Watching this scenario you would think that this dog hasn't been out of the house for six months. (At least!) All you see is this dog following a scents that appeal to him.
As all of us know the Staffordshirte is a working dog that has the renown for pulling. They are, if anything, constant in their consistency of dragging you to the point of forcing you to run to keep up to them. Once he senses that you are running he begins to speed up until you are going flat out... fast.

Zeus loves his new neighbourhood because we live, virtually, at the top of the
hill in the neighbourhood. It is all downhill once we are out the door. Slow, laggard humans are that much easier to pull and that is an idea of the waY that it should be accortding to Zeus.

Yelling at him is one way to make him stop. Another is, when he decides that he wants to 'smell the flowers, 'so to speak', and he stops on a dime. Stumbling is another way that I could describe being hauled fron pillar to post, bush to tree by the dog. It is stop and go... at his whim.

The question that is rarely asked is why do you let him do this?
The reason is that, simply, I enjoyed the sheer exhiltation with which he took his walks. It is a happy dog that I am following. Vibrant, strong and determined. To take this part of his personna from him was a no-brainer. Were it not for this attribute I would, undoubtedly, be a fat, tv watching, couch potato. You can take the dog out of the joy but you can't take the joy out of the dog.

On one of our excursions in the neighbourhood we pass the local SPCA/Humane Society.

The first time that he sighted and heard this area he was quick to pull me towards the outer edge of the building. There on the wall was this mural that I, upon casting my eyes upon it, fell in love with. It is a picture/painting that shows some youngish child from the early twentieth century with a
cart laden with garbage/recyclables/treasures being pulled by a dog that is in all probabilities a pit or staff.

It is the first picture/painting that I had seen where the pit/staff is well
represented as to who and what he is all about. As soon as I get a camera I will send this picture to the site. Until then I will just talk about things that are happening.

For example: my son came to visit and the first thing that he did was buy Zeus a new leash and collar. Although he asks for the old chain, I don't oblige him because he has to get used to his new get-up. He knows that if he wants to run in a wider circle it'll take more than the short leash that he is now on. I am thinking that I should keep the chain until the late, night walks.

Whereas once the question of passerby was "Who is walking whom for a walk" has now evolved to "Takin' you for a walk? Huh?" But that is another thread.

Can't wait to get a camera. It's (the picture/painting) as exhilarating as one of his walks.

The breed is renowned for being able to see the character of people. Like all animals (humans included) there are times that they don't listen until the point of no return has been passed. Trained or un-trained an animal is an animal.

[scooter]

I personally would rather not see APBT used in this manner. Yes, they can be trained, yes, they are intelligent enough to be trained. Yes, to all the criteria. However, the bite of the APBT is a little over the top and unfortunatley, yes, the BSL ppl would have a field day. Face it, nobody has as many Malinois, Schutzhunds, Mountain dogs in their backyards and on the leash in the street as we APBT people and we are taking the heat.
This is just my opinion, and I support the opinions of those who differ.

[simms]

This breed was not developed or intended for protection/attack work. IMO yes it does ad fuel to the fire in the war against bsl.

[mdknaly]

Thank for the comments. Scooter, I agree with every single word you wrote.

[badger]

in my opinion any breed of dog that has someone to spend the time to train, socialize and discipline then go for it! how is it negative or bad for the breed for people to see a dog that is trained and disciplined, and competing in discipline? this breed wasnt bred for this, but you know what they are a "working class dog", lets put them to work.

[bahamutt99]

I guess most are missing what I meant in my original post. So, let me rephrase it: Do you think that the pictures of dogs jumping in the are in aggressive (albiet controlled) manner are good for the image of our breed, do you think the pictures could be used in a negative way by the BSL people????
No, the image is not good. But lots of APBT people have pics of their dogs barking on their chains, or leaning hard into their collars to get at something. These kinds of things can carry the same negative connotations for people not familiar with the dogs. One is no worse than the other, IMO.

[ABK]

I have to agree that it does not paint a very postive picture for our breed. Yes, ppl may be impressed when they see the precison obedince, but all that will be wiped away once they see how hard & drive the APBT is to hit that sleeve.

Most APBTs will streak for the sleeve like a bullet & hit it like a freight train - often they're faster & harder than any GSD or Mal on the field. When an APBT is doing sleeve work you begin to hear murmurs of "Oh my God, look at that!" and "It's so vicious!" And don't let an APBT miss an out or not out fast enough. Then you hear "They'll never get him off now, he's locked his jaws!" & "Yeah, but their instinct is to kill!" You'd never think educated dog ppl would say that, but they do.

Schuntzhund, ring sport, etc? Fun? Yes. Can an APBT do it? Yes. Can an APBT even excel in it? Yes. It is good for our breed? No.

If one wants to put our breed in a positive light, AKC obedience is great, as it agility, therapy work or even search & rescue. All these endevours showcase our breed's obedience while not putting it in a situation where it would be seen as "vicious" in any way.

[badger]

so it is a double standard? we cant deny the history of this dog , but we need to conceal its ability?

[kryptonite]

I respectfully disagree that it's bad for their image. This shows their intelligence more than any else will, really it's the highest form of obedience training. Just because someone on the outside looking in doesn't like it doesnt' make it wrong. Rejecting something that someone knows nothing about is the highest form of ignorance. The fact is that these dogs can do just about everything better than every other type of dog. People need to see their superb inherit ability more often.

[mdknaly]

The APBT can do anything better than any other dog, we all know that! :)

The pictures are what bother me and the fact that they "could" be used in a negative way by people who know absolutely nothing about dogs. Plus, there are a million other ways to work a good dog and use his/her intewllegence too.

[kryptonite]

The APBT can do anything better than any other dog, we all know that! :)

The pictures are what bother me and the fact that they "could" be used in a negative way by people who know absolutely nothing about dogs. Plus, there are a million other ways to work a good dog and use his/her intewllegence too.
Fair enough, so what do you suggest is done?

[badger]

The APBT can do anything better than any other dog, we all know that! :)
The pictures are what bother me and the fact that they "could" be used in a negative way by people who know absolutely nothing about dogs. Plus, there are a million other ways to work a good dog and use his/her intewllegence too.
most pictures "could" be used as negative propaganda. obedience and shuthzund isnt for everybody ,but it isnt illegal and isnt hurting anybody. i think the bottom line is just be a responsible owner to this breed, or any animal. :)

[mdknaly]

I just wish they kept the pictures to themselves and out of the general public's prying eyes. That's all...

[badger]

I just wish they kept the pictures to themselves and out of the general public's prying eyes. That's all...

with the popuarity with this site and all of the discussions on what is good or bad for the breed shows alot of passion for this breed. obviously you care alot and that is awesome! :)

[mdknaly]

Thanks everyone for your inputs, very informative thread.

[stlcardfan19]

why must we keep putting limits on our dogs when there are plenty of people trying to do that anyway. We need to show intelligent these dogs truly are. If we train our dogs and the actually start to win some of these competitions developed for these other great breeds then it might show that it isnt the dogs that are the problem its the stupid owners. If everyone had there dogs that well trained you wouldnt have any of the problems we have now.

I recently began training with Jim Sears he is a schutzhund stud. Showed me some of what his dog can do. He was absolutely amazed at how smart batista is. He told me that my dog is smart enough to do the same stuff and he could probably win. My point being we all no that these dogs can do anything any other dog can do maybe better. So why do we continually limit our dogs?

[maryellen1]

there is a difference between limiting what this breed does and what the breed cant do. we all know this breed can do more then any other breed. we know this breed will win at any competition more then any other breed. however, with bitesport work, yes its high obedience., yes its alot of training.. BUT, the media and peta, and hsus all they see is the dog hitting the sleeve and biting... they dont care what is involved, they only care about how fast and hard that apbt hits the sleeve on the man in the suit... they dont care about statistics, they dont care about the high level of training.. they only see what they want to see - a apbt biting a human being..

i personally dont believe this breed should be doing bitework at all. just my opinion.. if there wasnt so much media hype on the apbt even when it poops, then maybe some could do bitework, however, with all that is going on unfortunately the less this breed is in the limelight the better off... i still dont agree with this breed doing bitework though..

[stlcardfan19]

now mary ellen i would expect more out of you than this. You are a true dog lover with great fashion sense but you are telling me that we shouldnt let our dogs do something that is completely only encourages the dog to be better behave and more under control just so peta wont get there panties in a bunch? I tend to believe instead of letting them walk all over us and hide our dogs so peta cant see them we should be shoving our dogs down there throats so the whole world can see how great they are. We should be showing our dogs, competeing our dogs, anything and everything that can bring the attention to our dogs. That is the key for every pit bull attack on tv there should be 1000 pit bull visiting nursing homes and then that will swing the opinion. It is up to us not the dogs!!!!!

[maryellen1]

stlcardfan- here is my take on it. while i am not a fan of bitework for apbt, i think that right now, with the way BSL is limiting ownership in most towns and states, not to mention total banning in ontario canada and denver, that right now the breed should not be seen doing bite work. the JQ public doesnt see the high obedience of the dog shown, it only sees the end of the exercise, the biting of the sleeve. i personally dont care if any dog does it, i dont like the apbt doing it though, and especially now with what is going on w/ the breed i dont think its a good idea right now..

funny you should say about therapy work, i only know of a handful of pits that do therapy work.. i wish there were more. i am out every weekend doing therapy w/ my pit, and showing what a great breed they are..

but when articles like "pitbull shot 26 times " appears in the media, that throws every bit of work i just did down the drain.

yes, do weight pull, agility, rally o, etc... but leave the bite work in the back burner for right now.. why should we give the media more hype to work on??? for example, my old homeowners insurance wouldnt insure any of my dogs if they did bitework.. to me thats prejudice, plain and simple. but i need a place to live, so i didnt argue.. once the media hype dies down, and the breed is safe from BSL, then ok, do bitework.. but not now, not with all these gun crazy media reporters who dont care if a gsd kills a kid, but hops all over a supposedly pit bull that gets shot 26 times..

can you at least understand where i am coming from for this? i would rather people see this:

http://photos.imageevent.com/princess21/kidsreadtoayankeedog/websize/yankeekids%20025.jpg

[stlcardfan19]

well i guess we sorta have the same opinion on the matter. The bottom line is that there needs to be more responsible pit bull owners. I do see your point that the bite work may not be the best idea for our breed but youi dont see the problem with shepards for doing bite work. Maybe there should be more pit bulls working in law enforcement. If there were it would be a lot tougher to pass bsl.


Nice pic!!!!!!!!!!!

[maryellen1]

thanks, thats my boy working his magic on 2nd graders w/ the reading program..

the thing with government dogs , bsl doesnt apply... working dogs for police etc are exempt.. they have ways to get around it. like if you get bit by a police dog you cant sue even if the dog is unsound..

i dont have a problem with dogs doing bitework, i just feel that apbt shouldnt because of their history with not biting a human, and with all this crap with bsl and stuff the more positive our breed does the better, just leave out the bitework for now and dont show it.... i dont care if people do it, just dont bring it into play with showing the dog to show they are not bad... you know how the public feels about the breed, why add fuel to the fire for now.. it just doesnt make sense.. i just wish everyone would stop the nonsense and get rid of bsl..

[LuvinBullies]

This breed was not developed or intended for protection/attack work. IMO yes it does ad fuel to the fire in the war against bsl. Agreed, 100%, especially now.

What a lot of Pit Bull owners do not understand, is that we are in war-time, fighting to keep our breed. War-time rules are different than everyday rules, and while it is perfectly reasonable to portray the pit bull as a versatile breed with many talents, showboating him right now as a "protection" or "bite work" artist is just plain cocky and counterproductive to our fight against BSL. It has nothing to do with being right or wrong. It's not "wrong" for a GSD to add jumping through hoops to his repertoire, and it is not "wrong" for a Pit Bull to be trained in protection by a professional. But that's not the point.
Americans have proven ourselves as a whole to be prone to hysteria via stereotype- i.e. Salem witch trials, McCarthy communist trials of the 1950's, etc. It's society's proven flaw. So adding to the misguided stereotypical view of the pit bull as a "protection/attack dog" severely cripples our stance. It may be "friendly fire", but it's a hit against us from BSL supporters just the same.

[stlcardfan19]

i am well aware of the fact that police dogs do not apply to bsl my thought is if there were more pits in law enforcement the masses may except them more. Since it is "war time" shouldnt we get our dogs out in the public eye. Maybe bite work isnt the best choice for a positive image but tracking and obiedence would be.

[LuvinBullies]

if there were more pits in law enforcement the masses may except them more. Since it is "war time" shouldnt we get our dogs out in the public eye. Maybe bite work isnt the best choice for a positive image but tracking and obiedence would be.Yes, we should get our dogs out in the public eye. Tracking and obedience, sure. Unfortunately opposition always twists the facts, so the pit bull needs to be sqeaky clean in the "public eye". If german shepherds were being banned everywhere, the public in favor of banning them wouldn't be impressed at the sight of one in police training. The public views law enforcement differently, and very few citizens feel a police dog is a public threat- no matter what its breed (except criminals that have been chased by a police dog:)).
Even if pit bulls got banned nationwide, police forces would still use them if they wanted to. Hell, they'd probably try to use the best bred Pit Bulls that were taken from their owners to do police work.
We have to show the public how much everyday citizens put them to good use, not necessarily emphasize their usefulness for policework.
JMHO.

[Hoyden]

I am going to be honest about this. Until I went to a Problem Solving Seminar with Chris Fraize in Main and saw his APBT Rumble work, I was dead set AGAINST pitbulls doing any type of personal protection work what-so-ever.

I grew up on Military Bases and around Military Working Dogs too, so I had a good idea of what is expected of these dogs.

Once I put my opinions and prejustice in my pocket and opened up my mind, I realized that a pitbull can do anything we want it to. The pitbull is a multi-faceted working dog that should not be limited to PC sports just to appease the media or anyone else.

I came away from the seminar saying to myself, "I want THAT LEVEL of obedience from my dogs." While I have no interest in doing any kind of personal protection or bite work myself, I respect the amount of work that goes into attaining that level of obedience from a dog.

What is the media's reaction going to be? Negative. No matter what this breed does, it rarely gets positive attention unless you shove it the media's face.

How do you fight them? You fight fire with fire. You fight mis-information with information. You approach with all your info in order, be patient, be persistant and be prepared.

I actually showed some of Chris Fraize's videos with his dog, Rumble doing bitework to an exec at a local TV station and to some of the media contacts that I work with. I also showed a video of a shepard doing similar work.

What was their reaction? 2 out of 3 saw the pitbull biting a human. But they didn't even BLINK when they saw the Shepard doing the same thing.

I called them on the double standard and they stopped to think. I replayed the video and pointed out what they missed. The level of obedience that the dog had, how the dog "made nice" with the decoy IN THE BITE SUIT after the session was done, how the dog was called off the decoy with a VERBAL COMMAND.

My point was made. And that is the tactic you have to use with the media sometimes. Patience, persistance and preparation.

When Chris has the Problem Solving Seminar in CT, you better believe that Birdie and I will hand deliver invitations to it to all our media contacts.

[FearlessKnight]

I too think both ways about this.....Even though...while it is great to prove or show that this breed is capable of performing at this level of obedience....people will use it against them. They will use whatever they can, and PIT BULL biting...they would have a field day on it! But i also think that it is very positive for them, because of the fact that there is such extensive training involved..and we all know they are more than capable of this as well as MANY other things!! Sucks you can't really decide how you feel, because of the damned media! If it were't for them I WOULD SAY....IT WAS GREAT!

[Hoyden]

I too think both ways about this.....Even though...while it is great to prove or show that this breed is capable of performing at this level of obedience....people will use it against them. They will use whatever they can, and PIT BULL biting...they would have a field day on it! But i also think that it is very positive for them, because of the fact that there is such extensive training involved..and we all know they are more than capable of this as well as MANY other things!! Sucks you can't really decide how you feel, because of the damned media! If it were't for them I WOULD SAY....IT WAS GREAT!
Don't let the media make up your mind for you. Then they win.

Research the topic and make your own informed decision.

[LuvinBullies]

What is the media's reaction going to be? Negative. No matter what this breed does, it rarely gets positive attention unless you shove it the media's face.

How do you fight them? You fight fire with fire. You fight mis-information with information. You approach with all your info in order, be patient, be persistant and be prepared.

I actually showed some of Chris Fraize's videos with his dog, Rumble doing bitework to an exec at a local TV station and to some of the media contacts that I work with. I also showed a video of a shepard doing similar work.

What was their reaction? 2 out of 3 saw the pitbull biting a human. But they didn't even BLINK when they saw the Shepard doing the same thing.

I called them on the double standard and they stopped to think. I replayed the video and pointed out what they missed. The level of obedience that the dog had, how the dog "made nice" with the decoy IN THE BITE SUIT after the session was done, how the dog was called off the decoy with a VERBAL COMMAND.

My point was made. And that is the tactic you have to use with the media sometimes. Patience, persistance and preparation.I absolutely positively commend you on what you did. If there were a million media-attending seminars with the same video, it would be outstanding to have people to prove that very same point.

Do I think the pit bull should be deprived of exploring his versatility because of prejudice? HELL NO!
Unfortunately, this is a time of mass hysteria amongst pit bull haters, who are not prone to reason. If professionals feel the breed should be publicly displayed for his high level of ability in protection work, far be it from me to tell them to can it. It is good work, no quibbles from me.

But in all honesty, do you think in WWII anyone here was saying "those krauts are some heinous fools, but they sure build a good solid, perfectly engineered tank and wow they sure are gentlemen in the battlefield-maybe they aren't so bad?"
The hysteria should be cooled first. If a captive audience can be swayed by watching a pit bull protection video with a savvy narrator- fine. I just don't think protection videos should be pushed on the public now without that savvy narrator to guide their feeble minds. That is all I am getting at.

[Hoyden]

I absolutely positively commend you on what you did. If there were a million media-attending seminars with the same video, it would be outstanding to have people to prove that very same point.

Do I think the pit bull should be deprived of exploring his versatility because of prejudice? HELL NO!
Unfortunately, this is a time of mass hysteria amongst pit bull haters, who are not prone to reason. If professionals feel the breed should be publicly displayed for his high level of ability in protection work, far be it from me to tell them to can it. It is good work, no quibbles from me.

But in all honesty, do you think in WWII anyone here was saying "those krauts are some heinous fools, but they sure build a good solid, perfectly engineered tank and wow they sure are gentlemen in the battlefield-maybe they aren't so bad?"
The hysteria should be cooled first. If a captive audience can be swayed by watching a pit bull protection video with a savvy narrator- fine. I just don't think protection videos should be pushed on the public now without that savvy narrator to guide their feeble minds. That is all I am getting at.I suck as a narrator, but I'm sure Chris could do a voice over and make it sound great.

You don't need a million media attending seminars. It would take Chris editing that same video and doing a voiced over narration.

Then we take a trip down the wonderful information super highway. All the media reps, execs, reporters et al. HAVE EMAIL ADDRESSES! :D

You can send them what ever you want. I often send them the videos made by members of this and other forums to look at.