Acceptable Levels of Dog Aggro

[JCleve86]

Something I've been pondering...

We all know dog aggression is to be expected in this breed, whether it is shown in certain circumstances or not...it's just a given. My question is this...for those who breed their dogs or place rescue dogs, where do you draw the line? What level of dog aggression is acceptable and what level makes a dog unadoptable/unsafe? A dog who will only fight same sex dogs? A dog who fires up at the sight of any other dog? A dog who doesn't start fights, but is very reactive if provoked?

(Of course I'm not saying "unsafe" referring to people, but rather to whether or not that dog could thrive in a normal household and/or neighborhood (that would invariably include other dogs, cats, etc.), of course assuming he has responsible owners.)

[savage]

just becasue a dog has very high levels of dog aggresion does not mean it is no good to rehome!i think they people who take in a dog like this should be made aware that it is really dog aggresive...this is like saying a dog agressive dog is a savage dog and should be put to sleep .come on please

[B]

It is really hard to place dog aggressive rescues. I took in a 'PR' show bred animal that displayed EXTREMELY high levels of dog aggression. It prevented her from getting several great homes. Your most important task is to make sure the people adopting the dog realize the situation. I think too many people candy coat it and claim that the dog just needs training to get the dog to a new home. The new home can't deal with or loses control of the dog and the same situation repeats itself. The problem all falls down to too many dogs and not enough responsible owners. The underlaying message for everyone that reads this will be plain and obvious. DON'T BREED DOGS!

Regards,

B

[bahamutt99]

I think any level is acceptable, but it depends greatly upon how prepared the potential adopter is. I think anyone buying or adopting an APBT should be amply forewarned about the potential for extreme dog aggression, up to the point that if they aren't ready to keep a segregated household, they shouldn't own more than one dog. Some folks have the space and experience to accomodate a super-hot dog. In that case, no level of aggression should be a bar. That said, if a dog is so hot they will excitement bite or whatnot to get at another dog, that's a different story.

My personal preference is a dog that wont attack unless pushed or challenged. I like appropriate aggression. Example: There was a sweet little Lab mix puppy hanging around my yard, and I took a chance and let her in the gate so she wouldn't get hit by a car. My dogs didn't attack her because she was no threat. But they will fire up at an aggressive dog. I feel like this is ideal for the breed, as it is a level of aggression that even non-bulldog people wouldn't find alarming. But I wouldn't discount a nice dog just because they were aggro. Animal aggression is easily controlled, IMO.

[realonebulldog]

Something I've been pondering...

We all know dog aggression is to be expected in this breed, whether it is shown in certain circumstances or not...it's just a given. My question is this...for those who breed their dogs or place rescue dogs, where do you draw the line? What level of dog aggression is acceptable and what level makes a dog unadoptable/unsafe? A dog who will only fight same sex dogs? A dog who fires up at the sight of any other dog? A dog who doesn't start fights, but is very reactive if provoked?

(Of course I'm not saying "unsafe" referring to people, but rather to whether or not that dog could thrive in a normal household and/or neighborhood (that would invariably include other dogs, cats, etc.), of course assuming he has responsible owners.) Bulldogs are bred to fight and win. Dogaggression has N O T H I N G to do with ability or gameness. Extreme Dogaggression you can find in nearly every dog....but if you talk about a dog that is able to fight for hours...well there is only one kind of dog....and sometimes he is a cold one. Surprising or?

[GSDbulldog]

Something I've been pondering...

We all know dog aggression is to be expected in this breed, whether it is shown in certain circumstances or not...it's just a given. My question is this...for those who breed their dogs or place rescue dogs, where do you draw the line? What level of dog aggression is acceptable and what level makes a dog unadoptable/unsafe? A dog who will only fight same sex dogs? A dog who fires up at the sight of any other dog? A dog who doesn't start fights, but is very reactive if provoked?

(Of course I'm not saying "unsafe" referring to people, but rather to whether or not that dog could thrive in a normal household and/or neighborhood (that would invariably include other dogs, cats, etc.), of course assuming he has responsible owners.)

I'm not a breeder, but I don't think dog aggression should even be considered when making a breeding.

However, I do place rescue dogs. Generally not bulldogs, but GSDs (Who tend to have high level of dog aggression). I do not "draw the line" anywhere, as far as the dog goes. I do however, draw the line on who can adopt the dog. GSDs have a huge range of temperaments: From laid back and gentle to nervy and spirited. The latter tends to do better in sporting homes, while the other end of the scale makes great housepets. Sometimes good dogs wait for years before finding a good home, and it puts a strain on the rescue.

Bottem line: Find someone who knows what their doing. Don't sugar-coat it. Don't deny the breed history. AND DON'T BREED. ;)

[JCleve86]

Bulldogs are bred to fight and win. Dogaggression has N O T H I N G to do with ability or gameness. Extreme Dogaggression you can find in nearly every dog....but if you talk about a dog that is able to fight for hours...well there is only one kind of dog....and sometimes he is a cold one. Surprising or?
Okie dokie...I'm not exactly sure what that had to do with the discussion but right-o.

I don't think dog aggro should be taken into account when breeding at all either (with this breed anyway). I'm thinking more along the lines of what kind of dog can be placed and which ones really can't. We've had very, very, very slow adoptions in my area recently (as in, some bulldogs have been in rescue for almost six months with not a single inquiry)...and that's probably the reason I ask. It seems unfair to the dog (and the rescue, as some of you mentioned) to keep a difficult to adopt out dog (extreme dog aggro, in this case) for years on end when other more moderate bulldogs (like baha's pups) could theoretically be in his place. Of course that comes with the territory when doing bulldog rescue, but reality has to come into play too...some dogs just have basically nill chance of ever getting into a home. Besides that, is it even responsible to adopt out a dog who fires up at the sight of another dog down the street? Of course we, as bulldog people, understand it, but the other 99.9% of the population would think "yep, there's another vicious pit bull."

Of course it's not the dog's fault and if an ideal home was out there, he shouldn't be put down or not considered for behaving like he was bred to behave. However, in all reality, those ideal homes just do not come around very often.

[TEXAS PIT DOGS]

for me jc it is kind of hard to say what is suitable because everything you described in your original post describes everything that a bulldog can have as far as dog aggerssion,but i think that ones from rescue shelters that you know exactley what it is gonna do should only be rehomed to folks who have been dealing with this breed for at least 10 years and the reason i pick 10 years is they should have owned and handled at least 1 dog for it's life.that way they should know exactley how to handle a dog who will go after another dog weather it be provocked or not.and thats the key with a bulldog is you have to control it.

[maryellen1]

i will not take in over the top dog aggressive dogs who bust out windows to get at other dogs in yards or streets, its too much for the general public to handle.. i had a foster dog who went thru my basement window to get at my dogs.. then she tried to go thru my truck window to get at a dog in a gas station.. she was not adopted out. dog aggression is accepted when we place dogs, but not the over the top stupid i will kill myself to get to that dog type of aggression. where the dog is unmanageable for anyone, even a well seasoned owner.. i do go over and over with potential adopters on the possibility of resident dog and new dog not getting along, and i give them 10 websites and a booklet on what to expect from a pit bull. i grill and grill them, and only the ones that are really serious respond.. but to place an outof control unmanagable highly dog aggressive dog i will not do.. yes, some people will place these kind of dogs, and while they are good with humans, you basically have to live on an island or in the woods with no chance of another dog encounter. and what about the vets office? the foster i had when i took her to the vet i had to be the last patient there, as she tried to go thru a door because she heard another dog in another room.. tooo much liability.

[JCleve86]

Hey I didn't know you were here ME! That's kind of along the lines I was thinking to...what best represents the breed...even if someone can manage the dog, there is ALWAYS the chance that something will happen, and a dog intent on killing every other dog existing is going to get himself into trouble.

There's also the liability issue. What if the bulldog kills Fluffy Milo the Poodle down the street because Fluffy Milo's owners let him walk off leash? Of course it's THEIR fault, but we know who is going to be blamed for it...and then whose fault is it? The bulldog's owners or the rescue who placed him?

It's rough...fortunately (or perhaps unfortunately) there are millions of bulldogs to choose from when selecting for rescue spots, so if the initial evaluations are done correctly I would think this kind of dilemma can be avoided altogether. Then of course you get the split personality dogs who tolerate other dogs in the shelter, but once they are into homes, decide dogs are for eating.

(This discussion is all assuming everything is done responsibly...the potential adopters are well informed (not lied to or misled), the dog is sound, etc. etc. etc.)

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=JCleve86]Okie dokie...I'm not exactly sure what that had to do with the discussion but right-o.

L O L ok sorry I dont answered your question...and to be honour, I cant because from my point of view dogaggression is an absolut non important point....it is a natural thing and if your dog shows it more or less you have to handle it, dont matter wich kind of dog you own. You know...for example wolves kill and eat each other...and you know they are the origin of ouer lovely dogis :)

[JCleve86]

[QUOTE=JCleve86]Okie dokie...I'm not exactly sure what that had to do with the discussion but right-o.

L O L ok sorry I dont answered your question...and to be honour, I cant because from my point of view dogaggression is an absolut non important point....it is a natural thing and if your dog shows it more or less you have to handle it, dont matter wich kind of dog you own. You know...for example wolves kill and eat each other...and you know they are the origin of ouer lovely dogis :)
Errrm...that would be cannibalism, and that doesn't occur in normal dogs...wild or not. Dang dude...your a trip!

I agree that if it were an owned dog, it's the owner's responsibility to just deal with it. It's what you sign up for when you get into this breed. However, with rescue dogs (I suppose this was more oriented towards rescue than anything else) you get to pick and choose who to place in your program, and sometimes unfortunately a dog shows a different temperament than when he was picked out, or you just get the dog...someone ties him to your front porch and walks away. What do you do, you know? It's easy to say he needs to be placed in an experienced home who knows what they are doing, etc. etc. etc., but in all reality, the kind of home that can handle an over the top dog aggro dog just isn't around...or they don't want rescue dogs. Even I wouldn't choose an overly aggressive dog. If one of mine ended up that way, so be it, but I wouldn't sign myself up for it.

And again, that still leaves us with the liability and representation of the breed issue...

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=JCleve86]Errrm...that would be cannibalism, and that doesn't occur in normal dogs...wild or not. Dang dude...your a trip!

That has nothing to do with normal or not normal in a serious fight wolves (and dogs) sometimes kill each other. And in hard times(no prey) it is posible that one wolve eats another.....natur is not wald disney dude. Shit HAPPENS :)

[DryCreek]

natur is not wald disney dude. Shit HAPPENS :)<!-- / message -->
Too funny, and too true. Hell, people have eaten other people before, and I'm sure they'll do it again. When the going gets tough, the tough eat the going. Nature at its most basic.

[NXJeremy]

Hi all, I'm the newb here. I recently took in a female brindle that I believe to be an APBT or APBT/mix. She's only a few months old, maybe 4 months.

Anyway, dog-dog aggro is a big concern for me since I have 4 other dogs, none of which are bully-breeds. She is the first of this breed that I have had and so I have been doing as much reading and research as I can.

I guess my main concern is how she will socialize with other dogs when she matures. She's been with us for 4 weeks now and she is the most energetic and playful one of the bunch. She and the other 4 dogs get along wonderfully without any signs of aggression other than her being very energetic and persistent about playing, lol. Of I only allow them to be together when supervised, and when unsupervised she is in her dog run (15ft. x ~50ft. so she has plenty of space to romp around when I'm not home).

So what would you all say is acceptable? Although I would like to keep her socialized enough to be good around other dogs, I'm mainly concerned with keeping her and our other 4 dogs happy living together at home.

[14rock]

Jeremy..check your thread in the newbies FAQ ;)

[maryellen1]

yeah JC its me:) its so hard to adopt them out anyway, and when you have an off the wall dog aggressive dog its even harder... while the dog would probably be good with new owners, its the off the wall aggression that puts a BIG damper on things.. hell the foster i had here was on leash in my house and while i was holding the leash went thru the basement window.. i tried everything with her, she even tried to fight herself in a mirror.. sometimes you have to make decisions that you are not happy with.

[JCleve86]

[QUOTE=JCleve86]Errrm...that would be cannibalism, and that doesn't occur in normal dogs...wild or not. Dang dude...your a trip!

That has nothing to do with normal or not normal in a serious fight wolves (and dogs) sometimes kill each other. And in hard times(no prey) it is posible that one wolve eats another.....natur is not wald disney dude. Shit HAPPENS :)
Times that are so hard that a dog would kill a member of his own pack would be abnormal. Hence the term "normal." Of course it's not Disney, but if wolves were really that aggressive with each other how to hell do you think they've survived? Comparing pit bulls to wolves is asanine. WE'VE selected for dogs who are aggressive, and in some cases, game...you could never have a surviving pack of pit bulls like you do with wolves. Fights of course happen, but wolves (and most modern day dog breeds) have natural behaviors that stop fights that have been bred out of pit bulls (whimpering, rolling belly up, cowering away, etc. to show submission, and thus, stop the fight). Hell even fights amongst adult male lions rarely end in death, and if it did they certainly wouldn't EAT the dead one. Apples and oranges. (And people are rational beings capable of complex thought, dogs are not...again, apples and oranges).

[simms]

Times that are so hard that a dog would kill a member of his own pack would be abnormal. Hence the term "normal." Of course it's not Disney, but if wolves were really that aggressive with each other how to hell do you think they've survived? Comparing pit bulls to wolves is asanine. WE'VE selected for dogs who are aggressive, and in some cases, game...you could never have a surviving pack of pit bulls like you do with wolves. Fights of course happen, but wolves (and most modern day dog breeds) have natural behaviors that stop fights that have been bred out of pit bulls (whimpering, rolling belly up, cowering away, etc. to show submission, and thus, stop the fight). Hell even fights amongst adult male lions rarely end in death, and if it did they certainly wouldn't EAT the dead one. Apples and oranges. (And people are rational beings capable of complex thought, dogs are not...again, apples and oranges).

Excellent response!

[realonebulldog]

Excellent response! Ok....first, you are COMPLEAT WRONG....just gimme some time to respond....

[simms]

Ok....first, you are COMPLEAT WRONG....just gimme some time to respond....

Fair Enough.....

[realonebulldog]

Fair Enough........lol sorry dude I mean cleave 86 is wrong...

[JCleve86]

Well prove me wrong than my friend. Natural selection would not allow for an species to evolve, let alone continue to exist, that would kill itself off. In dire times? Maybe, but not NORMALLY. Cannibalism is COMPLETELY unnatural...doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all, it's just not common at all.

Put it this way...there is for sure going to be some level of dog aggro in wild dogs, just as there will be some in domestic dogs, if not more since they don't generally live in packs like wild dogs do. However, as I said before, pit bulls could never in a million years survive as a pack. The level of dog aggro bred into and selected for in this breed is completely out of the ordinary. Your average pit bull is going to be much, much more dog aggro than your average wolf. Comparing the two just doesn't make any sense whatsoever...hence the reason I think the whole "alpha dog" concept is pretty bogus when it comes to this breed.

[realonebulldog]

Times that are so hard that a dog would kill a member of his own pack would be abnormal. Hence the term "normal." Of course it's not Disney, but if wolves were really that aggressive with each other how to hell do you think they've survived? Comparing pit bulls to wolves is asanine. WE'VE selected for dogs who are aggressive, and in some cases, game...you could never have a surviving pack of pit bulls like you do with wolves. Fights of course happen, but wolves (and most modern day dog breeds) have natural behaviors that stop fights that have been bred out of pit bulls (whimpering, rolling belly up, cowering away, etc. to show submission, and thus, stop the fight). Hell even fights amongst adult male lions rarely end in death, and if it did they certainly wouldn't EAT the dead one. Apples and oranges. (And people are rational beings capable of complex thought, dogs are not...again, apples and oranges). It doesnt need hard times for dogs(or wolves) to kill a member of the own Pack.....two dominant males or females and such thing can happen in your livingroom. If we talk about wolves it is in most cases a first position fight that can end deadly. A strange wolve would be killed before you can say bikini....not to talk about kojotes ,badgers or cats. If you watch a pack wolves for some month you will notice that there is a high aggresionpotential..much higher than that from most dogbreeds....wolves need it to comunicate.....if you watch a pack of bulldogs you will notice that there is by far not that much aggressive behavior....sometimes a look is enough to comunicate. Look at the dogpark, many strange dogs play with each other......try the same with wolves and you know wich of them (wolve or dog) is more aggressive. And now to the canibalthing.....yes if times are hard enough your dog will eat you...for sure! For example if you die in your house and your dog is with you there...maybe not the first or second day.....but after a while he would nip at you. I talked about wolves that eat each other in hard times....for example in alaska, yes thats true if the pack member is dead he is only proteine, meat. Yes i know humans dont like it to think about souch trues.....they like disney.....do you ever thought about why dogs eat sometimes the crap of humans....? Well, they eat the crap from humans, horses, cattle,or from other dogs, but never from cats,badgers or kojotes or foxes.The answer is they only eat the crap of her prey.......yes some thousand years back W E were nothing more than prey....and today we love disney. And last not least...if you watch Pitbulls for a while you would notice they dont lost theyr natural behavior....they are only superior fighter.

[JCleve86]

If that's what you want to believe, than go right ahead. I say site your source. Like I said, some aggression (like the dominance/alpha issue) is going to be present, but wild animals will rarely fight to the point that one of them dies...certainly not as frequently as you would find in pit bulls. If the dog aggression found in pit bulls is so normal, explain to me why they are one of the very few breeds that (responsible) people will absolutely NOT leave alone together. And why Beagles and other hound breeds are often housed in packs rather than individually? There is a huge range of aggression found in all dogs, and it is very elevated in pit bulls as a whole. To deny that is just...dumbfounding.

And try telling cat and dog owners that dogs don't eat cat feces. I believe we call it "kitty rocha" around here.

It's not about Disney, it's about whats REAL, what's NATURAL. Killing your own species is not natural. If it were so commonplace, how did wolves evolve? If males killed each other off as often as you say, how would they have reproduced? Wolves may show much more aggressive BEHAVIOR (baring teeth, growling, etc.) but not actual FIGHTS like you would find in a pack of pit bulls, as these behaviors are really designed to AVOID fights.

And once again, what does the possibility of a domestic dog eating his dead owner have to do with it? Of course he would...after we die, all we are to them (and in reality, to anyone) is a body...complete with meat, bones, and other yummy edibles. THAT'S natural...dogs are scavengers...not cannibals.

[realonebulldog]

If that's what you want to believe, than go right ahead. I say site your source. Like I said, some aggression (like the dominance/alpha issue) is going to be present, but wild animals will rarely fight to the point that one of them dies...certainly not as frequently as you would find in pit bulls. If the dog aggression found in pit bulls is so normal, explain to me why they are one of the very few breeds that (responsible) people will absolutely NOT leave alone together. And why Beagles and other hound breeds are often housed in packs rather than individually? There is a huge range of aggression found in all dogs, and it is very elevated in pit bulls as a whole. To deny that is just...dumbfounding.

And try telling cat and dog owners that dogs don't eat cat feces. I believe we call it "kitty rocha" around here.

It's not about Disney, it's about whats REAL, what's NATURAL. Killing your own species is not natural. If it were so commonplace, how did wolves evolve? If males killed each other off as often as you say, how would they have reproduced? Wolves may show much more aggressive BEHAVIOR (baring teeth, growling, etc.) but not actual FIGHTS like you would find in a pack of pit bulls, as these behaviors are really designed to AVOID fights.

And once again, what does the possibility of a domestic dog eating his dead owner have to do with it? Of course he would...after we die, all we are to them (and in reality, to anyone) is a body...complete with meat, bones, and other yummy edibles. THAT'S natural...dogs are scavengers...not cannibals. Its ok ... lol ... I see you are scared.....its absolut nothing wrong with that what i tould you ...research it. I dont write what just pope into my head.....regards :)

[maryellen1]

now , speaking back on topic of dog aggression, placing an out of the world dog aggressive dog that will go thru doors, walls, windows to get at another dog is not placeable. that is my opinion.

as far as wolves vs dogs.. wolves are highly evolved to work together as a pack based on behaviors .. The showing of teeth, hackles raised, are all warnings. most pack members will not let the warnings escalate into a full fledged fight. and if a fight ensues, the wolf willnot fight to the death. theywill fight to beat down the weaker wolf.. a pit bull will not stop fighting even if the other dog submits.. pit bulls will not submit to other dogs, nor will they stop fighting if the other dog submits..

apples and oranges...

and eating dead things is not cannibalism..

[realonebulldog]

now , speaking back on topic of dog aggression, placing an out of the world dog aggressive dog that will go thru doors, walls, windows to get at another dog is not placeable. that is my opinion.

as far as wolves vs dogs.. wolves are highly evolved to work together as a pack based on behaviors .. The showing of teeth, hackles raised, are all warnings. most pack members will not let the warnings escalate into a full fledged fight. and if a fight ensues, the wolf willnot fight to the death. theywill fight to beat down the weaker wolf.. a pit bull will not stop fighting even if the other dog submits.. pit bulls will not submit to other dogs, nor will they stop fighting if the other dog submits..

apples and oranges...

and eating dead things is not cannibalism.. Ok...like it or hate it but Wolves kill sometimes each other in a fight.Selection without killing is not Selection. Tiger kill sometimes each other in a fight (ca. 25% of males die in fights with each other). And yes Pitbulls have preydrive.....and if you believe they are not able to hunt in packs ...well, then you have never seen some game Bulldogs on hogs.....and...lol....last not least....eating dead things is not cannibalism..... that would mean if you eat a dead family member that would be not cannibalism....? Come on now...! LOL And now some think to the topic....I think the best case your dog only fight wen ataked....like my jimbo...but sometimes you get a living missile...like my spike...and then you should be a novice to handle it...;)

[Sid Finster]

Selection without killing most certainly can be selection.

For instance, if a male dog who continually loses fights does not get to breed, his genes may well die with him, even if he survives many years after a fight. On the other hand, the dog who wins the fight may gets to breed, but then after a couple days die of an infection resulting from injuries sustained in the fight. Even so, his genes live on in his progeny.

Anyway, gameness is most definitely not a survival advantage in a wild dog or wolf. That is why we humans have had to artificially select for gameness.

[JCleve86]

Who's skerrrred? I guess continuing a debate means I'm scared? Hmmmmm....

I never denied that wolves will sometimes kill each other in fights. I'm arguing that it's not commonplace...and that wolf behavior does not in any way, shape, or form translate into pit bull behavior. It's called evolution, and as Sid (and others) have pointed out, we have articificially selected for the traits we find in all breeds, including an increased dog aggro in pit bulls and fluffy hair in poodles, and in my case, squished up noses in Boxers. Do you think that would occur in wolves? Not a chance...just as we have selected for different looks in domestic dogs, we've also selected for certain temperaments. The CORE dog, the wolf, is still there, but to a varying degree. I would say pit bulls are hardly a primative breed, especially when compared to a Malamute or other Arctic breeds.

Either way it appears this isn't getting anywhere, so cheers!

[realonebulldog]

Who's skerrrred? I guess continuing a debate means I'm scared? Hmmmmm....

I never denied that wolves will sometimes kill each other in fights. I'm arguing that it's not commonplace...and that wolf behavior does not in any way, shape, or form translate into pit bull behavior. It's called evolution, and as Sid (and others) have pointed out, we have articificially selected for the traits we find in all breeds, including an increased dog aggro in pit bulls and fluffy hair in poodles, and in my case, squished up noses in Boxers. Do you think that would occur in wolves? Not a chance...just as we have selected for different looks in domestic dogs, we've also selected for certain temperaments. The CORE dog, the wolf, is still there, but to a varying degree. I would say pit bulls are hardly a primative breed, especially when compared to a Malamute or other Arctic breeds.

Either way it appears this isn't getting anywhere, so cheers! Cheers, but serious think and research about evolution.....that what you called evolution is for sure not evolution.....yes darwin used it as an model, but it isnt evolution...far from that.......yes we domesticatet the wolve and have given him differend genetic tasks, thatswhy we have differend dogbreds...but thats not evolution...evolution means million of years .But what has that to do with that what I sayd? I sayd wolves kill sometimes each other and eat sometimes each other....and that its natural.And by the way...you talked about dogs like malamuts and for example groenlanddogs...lol....this dogs kill and eat other dogs.....be carefull with your podle arround them...:) yes this dogs are very close to the origin, the wolve.

[14rock]

Our breed does not undergo much natural selection at all....or natural evolution. Everything they do, down to who they breed with and what type of feed they eat is our choice-not theirs, or natures. Evolution means letting animals change to adapt to their surroundings, when we start getting involved its no longer Natural selection. I dont see what this has to do with placing dog-aggressive bulldogs, maybe someone can shed some light on what I'm missing? LOL

[tommy3]

In regards to the original question concerning dog aggression while breeding and rescuing:
In my opinion, if you are breeding correctly you will produce highly dog aggressive APBTs. The dog should be bred to be aggressive enough to scratch and game enough to keep scratching. Back in the day, how would the oldtimers prove their dogs game if they were too cold to scratch? This does not mean they bred for aggression. However, it comes with the territory, if you are breeding correctly. If you are breeding cold dogs because you think you are being safe, you are doing the breed a great injustice. If you can't handle the dogs as they are supposed to be, you should be working with a different breed that is naturally not aggressive. If it's too hot, get the hell out of the kitchen!

If you are placing a rescued dog aggressive APBT, as TX said, they should have thorough knowledge of the breed. If not, the dog would be better off put to sleep.

[GaDog]

hello folks, I have been gone for some time but "I'm back". I have been training dogs or I should say learning how to with a man that specializes in personal protection dogs. I also come from the rescue side of the bulls. What I have seen is that a properly trained dog even if he is dog aggressive can be kept under control while on leash. Now off the leash I can add nothing, so to place a dog aggressive dog in a multi dog home where the owners are not prepared and experianced with this or any other breed would be maddness waiting to happen. I must agree that Bulls, Presas and other large or high dogs are not for everyone and rescuers should be aware of this simple fact.

[prettyfulpitbull]

I dunno I was told me female was severly dog aggressive when I got her.But it's mostly a dominance thing.If she can't dominate then there will be problems but I have a puppy too who she does fine with.

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=tommy3]In regards to the original question concerning dog aggression while breeding and rescuing:
In my opinion, if you are breeding correctly you will produce highly dog aggressive APBTs. The dog should be bred to be aggressive enough to scratch and game enough to keep scratching. Back in the day, how would the oldtimers prove their dogs game if they were too cold to scratch? This does not mean they bred for aggression. Ok Tommy would you please explain how can a little (42 pound) tailwaging nondogaggressive Bulldog wipe a big (75 pound) and extrem dogaggressive Rottweiler.....? And ,, to cold to scratch,,.......to cold means only that he dont fire up in sight of another dog or in extreme cases if ataked by another dog( exactly this happened in honeybunch early days , she only looked at her owner while ataked by another dog) and some of this cold dogs turned later in superior pit dogs(if not culled before).So I think this has a littlebit to do with the topic because we have to understand that dogaggressive has realy NOTHING to do with gameness.Many people believe dogaggression is a sign for gameness and they claim to have a game dog because he is soooo dogaggressive.....THIS dudes do not know what they talk about but the worst thing is they give PETA a good ball to shot an important goal ,because PETA people sometimes ask questions(even on this board) and if they ged this kind of wrong informations they say plain and simple that gamedogbreeding is breeding for dogaggression and thats a good reason to put all gamedogs down....to save all nondogaggressive dogs like Rottweiler, Dogos or Kangals...:).....Pitbulls need responsible owners because they are superior fightdogs and like in other breeds there is a drive to fight....but please dont blow it up to a Skyscrapper....

[Mercepitdog]

[QUOTE=JCleve86]Okie dokie...I'm not exactly sure what that had to do with the discussion but right-o.

L O L ok sorry I dont answered your question...and to be honour, I cant because from my point of view dogaggression is an absolut non important point....it is a natural thing and if your dog shows it more or less you have to handle it, dont matter wich kind of dog you own. You know...for example wolves kill and eat each other...and you know they are the origin of ouer lovely dogis :)Someone needs to watch animal planet or wild discovery a little more. Wolves DONT NOT kill and each other in a normal fashion. They may fight a lone wolf or chew on the lowest pack member but wolves HATE to engage in a fight. Why do you think they display so many warning displays like the baring of the teeth, growling and the rasing of their hackles? They do that to avoid a battle as much a possible. Man took the most aggessive wolves and bred and bred them over and over and with time some of the first fighting dogs were created. In other words gameness itsself is just aggresstion bred over to the extreme.

You can not compare our bulldogs to the likes of wolves. Their mental being is unlike that of our bulldogs. For example. If the butchers or dog men would have used wolves for the baiting of bulls, it would have been a joke. Sure wolves have jaws with crushing power that can out do any dog, but bulldogs skulls were vise grip like. Which meant, even though the skulls were not as strong as wolves, in gripping and holding ability the bulldogs were far greater than wolf. This wouldn't have been if man didn't get into the breeding picture. Wolves only with fight for so long to a certain period of time. Their wild animals and their main purpose is to make it day by day and breed. Wolves were desiged to suvive far better than the likes of dogs and have better hunting ability. However, wolves have a poor hunt rate lower than 12% per hunt! If a wolf got hurt, he would stop fighting an animal like an elk or moose and go tend to its wounds when our bulldogs would go off at the sound of "Get up there boy!!!" and would continue to fight as long as their bodies had the ability to move

So you can not compare wolf behavior to the pitbull. Fighting dogs can not live in packs. And live in a soical inverment. Sure, you see some watered down petbulls living numbers but the breed's orginal traits werent so

[Bakercloud]

"Bump"
why does everyone want to change the apbt? Doesn't make sense....

[tommy3]

[QUOTE=tommy3]In regards to the original question concerning dog aggression while breeding and rescuing:
In my opinion, if you are breeding correctly you will produce highly dog aggressive APBTs. The dog should be bred to be aggressive enough to scratch and game enough to keep scratching. Back in the day, how would the oldtimers prove their dogs game if they were too cold to scratch? This does not mean they bred for aggression. Ok Tommy would you please explain how can a little (42 pound) tailwaging nondogaggressive Bulldog wipe a big (75 pound) and extrem dogaggressive Rottweiler.....? And ,, to cold to scratch,,.......to cold means only that he dont fire up in sight of another dog or in extreme cases if ataked by another dog( exactly this happened in honeybunch early days , she only looked at her owner while ataked by another dog) and some of this cold dogs turned later in superior pit dogs(if not culled before).So I think this has a littlebit to do with the topic because we have to understand that dogaggressive has realy NOTHING to do with gameness.Many people believe dogaggression is a sign for gameness and they claim to have a game dog because he is soooo dogaggressive.....THIS dudes do not know what they talk about but the worst thing is they give PETA a good ball to shot an important goal ,because PETA people sometimes ask questions(even on this board) and if they ged this kind of wrong informations they say plain and simple that gamedogbreeding is breeding for dogaggression and thats a good reason to put all gamedogs down....to save all nondogaggressive dogs like Rottweiler, Dogos or Kangals...:).....Pitbulls need responsible owners because they are superior fightdogs and like in other breeds there is a drive to fight....but please dont blow it up to a Skyscrapper....Realone, first off I clearly said nothing about breeding for aggression or that it is a sign of gameness. Read it again. I never said that aggression and gameness are the same. These bulldogs were meant to be fighting dogs and I ain't trying to change that or tell anyone different regardless of what PETA or any other of those assholes think. Once you start telling people that the dogs aren't aggressive and that it depends its upbringing, we will be in more trouble than we already are. I ain't sugar coating shit for you or PETA. There is nothing wrong with animal aggression. I am pretty sure every breed of dog has animal aggression within it, in some form.

[realonebulldog]

I am pretty sure every breed of dog has animal aggression within it, in some form.[/QUOTE] Well with that I agree in fact that is what I try to explain......but what I realy dont understand is that you all the time try to compare scratching with dogaggression....that makes from my(and others) point of view no sense. For example many Bandoges or Rottweiler are one hell with other dogs I mean they are extreme dogaggressive ........but if they fight say 20 or at least maybe 35 min they stud the line...they dont scratch. You know that some Bulldogs go well with other dogs.....sorry or is that something I shoud not say....? However if this Bulldogs been ataked by another dog and they START to fight they dont stop until the work is done.....and they scratch deep in the fight. I dont say that Bulldogs are not Dogaggressive because that were a true idiotic statement.....the same as I would say Rottweiler are not dogaggressive....there is no reason for that.I say only that dogaggressive is not the important thing that a dog need to scratch...especial deep in the fight...in fact I think thats the last thing he need. And by the way .....and again....I n e v e r sayd that Bulldogs are not dog and animalaggressive n e v e r because nearly all strong dogs have this more or less....so why should a Bulldog be differend? Makes no sense or? Ok I dont need trouble but if it is imposible to speak my mind on a board....I mean is that not the reason for a board? And last not least I was allways friendly in my postings and you jump on me realy aggressive....why? I am not aggressive but dont think that iam not game.....and dont think iam stupid becose of my bad ass english, if you think you are more inteligent then write in german, i tell you than how inteligent it looks...:) so shake hands ok?

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=Mercepitdog]Someone needs to watch animal planet or wild discovery a little more.

Be sure thats the last thing you should watch if you realy want to know what is real and what not because on the same chaneel they tell you that Bulldogs are Monsters....if you search the trues speak with economist direct or read good books....for example from Erik Zimen. Dont look so much TV......it makes whole generations dumb. And to the Pitbull & Wolf thing .....if you ask me what makes the differens....I would say 3 things 1. Look 2.heart 3.natural instinct.

[tommy3]

I am pretty sure every breed of dog has animal aggression within it, in some form. Well with that I agree in fact that is what I try to explain......but what I realy dont understand is that you all the time try to compare scratching with dogaggression....that makes from my(and others) point of view no sense. For example many Bandoges or Rottweiler are one hell with other dogs I mean they are extreme dogaggressive ........but if they fight say 20 or at least maybe 35 min they stud the line...they dont scratch. You know that some Bulldogs go well with other dogs.....sorry or is that something I shoud not say....? However if this Bulldogs been ataked by another dog and they START to fight they dont stop until the work is done.....and they scratch deep in the fight. I dont say that Bulldogs are not Dogaggressive because that were a true idiotic statement.....the same as I would say Rottweiler are not dogaggressive....there is no reason for that.I say only that dogaggressive is not the important thing that a dog need to scratch...especial deep in the fight...in fact I think thats the last thing he need. And by the way .....and again....I n e v e r sayd that Bulldogs are not dog and animalaggressive n e v e r because nearly all strong dogs have this more or less....so why should a Bulldog be differend? Makes no sense or? Ok I dont need trouble but if it is imposible to speak my mind on a board....I mean is that not the reason for a board? And last not least I was allways friendly in my postings and you jump on me realy aggressive....why? I am not aggressive but dont think that iam not game.....and dont think iam stupid becose of my bad ass english, if you think you are more inteligent then write in german, i tell you than how inteligent it looks...:) so shake hands ok?I apologize. I'm taking it to PM.

[japangame]

I think when i see my dogs being Dog Aggressive, I get a little tear in my eye and that is when i say "My little baby is all grown up". You should see me. Im dog aggressive as hell....LOL.....I chew on my dogs so much that my wife thinks im a Dog. Seriously, if you are worried about dog aggro, dont get into the breed. That is what i tell people. All dogs can be dog aggressive so you might have to deal with it later anyway it probably just wont be half as bad. If one of your dogs are dog aggressive, and the others are not, all you have to do is separate them. You might have a yard accident if your not paying close attention, but things happen. It is only IMO. Good luck with it.Something I've been pondering...

We all know dog aggression is to be expected in this breed, whether it is shown in certain circumstances or not...it's just a given. My question is this...for those who breed their dogs or place rescue dogs, where do you draw the line? What level of dog aggression is acceptable and what level makes a dog unadoptable/unsafe? A dog who will only fight same sex dogs? A dog who fires up at the sight of any other dog? A dog who doesn't start fights, but is very reactive if provoked?

(Of course I'm not saying "unsafe" referring to people, but rather to whether or not that dog could thrive in a normal household and/or neighborhood (that would invariably include other dogs, cats, etc.), of course assuming he has responsible owners.)

[Riptora]

At the shelter I worked at dogs were put through a behavioral examination just like on Animal Planet with the phony hand and everything. Every 'adoptable' animal that was taken in at this shelter was put up for adoption so long as it remained 'adoptable' If a dog showed signs for concern as far as dog aggression it was not deemed 'adoptable' we did however allow animals that were not placable in cat homes. The reason for this is simple. For one all the cages are always full, to where you are turning down people who can't keep their animals. Two, it's a liability reason, you can be sued technically, if a high risk animal were to cause serious injury or death to another. Mostly, it's simply because there are SO many other dogs who are not dog aggressive that desperately need homes. It's not fair no matter how you view it, but if it were your shelter you would want to save as many as you could. Not to mention the dogs labelled dog aggressive would be there FOREVER, most families don't want that liability either and the dog stays at the shelter so long it goes mad, or it costs so much to feed, or it's taking up a kennel that could have adopted out 10 dogs in the ammount of time it took to get it a home AND hopefully if it did get adopted the new owners would adopt it for the right reasons, because what kind of great quality is dog aggression? By the way, this particular shelter adopts out a great variety of pits and if they are even cat aggressive it takes forever. Their site is parl.org look at all the pits these guys put up for adoption, they are an awesome org.

[japangame]

That is the hard reality. Thanx for that one, and that is another reason that people should stop all this breeding and buying before knowing how to deal with the breed. At the shelter I worked at dogs were put through a behavioral examination just like on Animal Planet with the phony hand and everything. Every 'adoptable' animal that was taken in at this shelter was put up for adoption so long as it remained 'adoptable' If a dog showed signs for concern as far as dog aggression it was not deemed 'adoptable' we did however allow animals that were not placable in cat homes. The reason for this is simple. For one all the cages are always full, to where you are turning down people who can't keep their animals. Two, it's a liability reason, you can be sued technically, if a high risk animal were to cause serious injury or death to another. Mostly, it's simply because there are SO many other dogs who are not dog aggressive that desperately need homes. It's not fair no matter how you view it, but if it were your shelter you would want to save as many as you could. Not to mention the dogs labelled dog aggressive would be there FOREVER, most families don't want that liability either and the dog stays at the shelter so long it goes mad, or it costs so much to feed, or it's taking up a kennel that could have adopted out 10 dogs in the ammount of time it took to get it a home AND hopefully if it did get adopted the new owners would adopt it for the right reasons, because what kind of great quality is dog aggression? By the way, this particular shelter adopts out a great variety of pits and if they are even cat aggressive it takes forever. Their site is parl.org look at all the pits these guys put up for adoption, they are an awesome org.

[JCleve86]

Amen!!!!!!

[devinben3]

what people don't realize is dog aggression is a lot different than game.....dog aggression can be helped...i've seen it done many many times. This goes for any breed...not just the apbt....any dog can be aggressive! but game is a different story...as far as placing out dog aggressive dogs, it is a lot harder! that why it all boils down to just don't breed...save your time and money!

[devinben3]

i noticed on the parl.org site that there are a lot of pits not good with kids....i'm glad they're honest about it...i bet that makes it extremely hard, when a dog is not good with other dogs, cats, or kids....but they still try..

[JCleve86]

So, if a dog's dog aggression cannot be worked out or improved, does that mean he's game? (Of course I know the answer is no...the point is that we're talking about what's safe to adopt out and whats not, regardless of whether the source of the behavior is "I'm a real tough guy and I'm going to snarl at that dog" or "By God, that dog will die")

That does bring up an interesting point though. Say a game (truly game) dog was hot...fired up at other dogs on sight...could you, theoretically, train him to ignore other dogs in day to day interactions? I would always say no, but you seem to suggest otherwise? (Of course I understand it's entirely possible, and often times the case, that a tried and true game dog will be cold, but in this case we'll just consider the type of dog described above)

And no, I'm not trying to sound like a sarcastic jackass...it just reads that way! Seriously...opinions?

ETA: This "training" of the hot game dog to behave around other dogs is assuming that this will occur when the owner is present and attending to that dog...NOT that the dog can just be trained to ignore other dogs even if one is thrown at him and nobody is there to handle him. (Of course that would make it difficult for a dog to be thrown at him...lol)

[Riptora]

i noticed on the parl.org site that there are a lot of pits not good with kids....i'm glad they're honest about it...i bet that makes it extremely hard, when a dog is not good with other dogs, cats, or kids....but they still try..
They don't adopt out dogs that show aggression towards kids, they only post that because they don't want any incidents. They almost always state "children 12 and older" because of course they don't want little kids getting knocked around and no one knows what might happen introducing an adult dog to kids. They are very honest indeed because there's nothing more frustrating than animals being brought back to the shelter. If they are returned because they are showing signs of aggression towards kids or adults they are euthed.

[japangame]

Plane and simple. Dog aggression is this breed. It is 100% exceptable. If ya dont like it then you are in the wrong breed. Get out, find a hampster, buy it, and you wont have the dog aggression. That is all there is to it. Accept it or get out, and dont try to change it cuz that is what this breed was bred for.

[Judy]

So, if a dog's dog aggression cannot be worked out or improved, does that mean he's game? (Of course I know the answer is no...the point is that we're talking about what's safe to adopt out and whats not, regardless of whether the source of the behavior is "I'm a real tough guy and I'm going to snarl at that dog" or "By God, that dog will die")

That does bring up an interesting point though. Say a game (truly game) dog was hot...fired up at other dogs on sight...could you, theoretically, train him to ignore other dogs in day to day interactions? I would always say no, but you seem to suggest otherwise? (Of course I understand it's entirely possible, and often times the case, that a tried and true game dog will be cold, but in this case we'll just consider the type of dog described above)

And no, I'm not trying to sound like a sarcastic jackass...it just reads that way! Seriously...opinions?

ETA: This "training" of the hot game dog to behave around other dogs is assuming that this will occur when the owner is present and attending to that dog...NOT that the dog can just be trained to ignore other dogs even if one is thrown at him and nobody is there to handle him. (Of course that would make it difficult for a dog to be thrown at him...lol)
I'd aslo like to know the answers to these questions. Particulary, can a dog with dog aggression be trained to ignore other dogs? Or does it depend on the level of aggression?

[14rock]

To an extent, you can train the dog to focus on you for the most part, instead of going nuts to get at the other dog. I dont think you would have much success letting the other dog walk up and touch it though, then its going to do what it wants to do regardless. Somedogs know when its time to work, and when its time to play. There have been plenty of (historical) fighting dogs who will tolerate other dogs to a degree (usually pups, but sometimes females, and even some males) until they step into the box. Pretty much anything in this breed can be related to boxing....boxers might think about fighting all day every day, but this doesnt mean they are running the streets looking for fights. If a fight comes to them however, chances are they are going to finish it. Its very much the same for alot of dogs, except there are of course exceptions. These exceptions are the cocky cur fighters who runs his mouth at all the bars, and the fight-crazy dogs who do the same.

To answer the question "does it depend on the level of aggression" I'm not sure how to word my response. It depends on the level of "fight-craziness" I guess you could call it (rough night, I may come back to edit this post to make more sense later,lol)....but fight-craziness doesnt exactly equate to dog-aggression. The pit-fighter who only handles his business in the pit, or unless provoked is just as dog-aggressive, he just doesnt need to wildly cur-snap and bark to prove it.

[IslandTie]

I Think A Good Game Dog Will Have All The Characteristics It Should Have. Its A Matter Of The Owner To Make A Resposible Decission On Weahter Or Not They Have Adiquiate Space, Location, Time, Courage And Tolorance For Such A Dog. If Someone Has All These Things, It Would Probably Be The Best And Strongest Dog To Have But Responcibilities And Knowledge Always Come First.

[Bakercloud]

To an extent, you can train the dog to focus on you for the most part, instead of going nuts to get at the other dog. I dont think you would have much success letting the other dog walk up and touch it though, then its going to do what it wants to do regardless. Somedogs know when its time to work, and when its time to play. There have been plenty of (historical) fighting dogs who will tolerate other dogs to a degree (usually pups, but sometimes females, and even some males) until they step into the box. Pretty much anything in this breed can be related to boxing....boxers might think about fighting all day every day, but this doesnt mean they are running the streets looking for fights. If a fight comes to them however, chances are they are going to finish it. Its very much the same for alot of dogs, except there are of course exceptions. These exceptions are the cocky cur fighters who runs his mouth at all the bars, and the fight-crazy dogs who do the same.

To answer the question "does it depend on the level of aggression" I'm not sure how to word my response. It depends on the level of "fight-craziness" I guess you could call it (rough night, I may come back to edit this post to make more sense later,lol)....but fight-craziness doesnt exactly equate to dog-aggression. The pit-fighter who only handles his business in the pit, or unless provoked is just as dog-aggressive, he just doesnt need to wildly cur-snap and bark to prove it.
Nicely said Rock.

The aggression will lead you into the pit....Game keeps you in tell the end...Bakercloud

[realonebulldog]

To an extent, you can train the dog to focus on you for the most part, instead of going nuts to get at the other dog. I dont think you would have much success letting the other dog walk up and touch it though, then its going to do what it wants to do regardless. Somedogs know when its time to work, and when its time to play. There have been plenty of (historical) fighting dogs who will tolerate other dogs to a degree (usually pups, but sometimes females, and even some males) until they step into the box. Pretty much anything in this breed can be related to boxing....boxers might think about fighting all day every day, but this doesnt mean they are running the streets looking for fights. If a fight comes to them however, chances are they are going to finish it. Its very much the same for alot of dogs, except there are of course exceptions. These exceptions are the cocky cur fighters who runs his mouth at all the bars, and the fight-crazy dogs who do the same.

To answer the question "does it depend on the level of aggression" I'm not sure how to word my response. It depends on the level of "fight-craziness" I guess you could call it (rough night, I may come back to edit this post to make more sense later,lol)....but fight-craziness doesnt exactly equate to dog-aggression. The pit-fighter who only handles his business in the pit, or unless provoked is just as dog-aggressive, he just doesnt need to wildly cur-snap and bark to prove it. Yes and very often the good boxer are the very smart ones...like sugar ray or Ali or look at the Klitschkos.....and we all know that champions nearly always are the smart Bulldogs....so I think its something needed to be a good Fighter...and its not Aggression....

[cary-dude]

It took a very long time to read oll of this but very nice discussion folks.

[SoColdsBaby]

I know as a chow chow breed which this breed is not only dog aggro but can be human to when selling puppies placing any rescuse you have to gill the person. Any breed that has a bad rep is going to get blamed. My main stud is male aggro from high hell and i live in a place where dogs will dig under you fance to get your do food two of his girls were in heat and he was outside in the fence on a chain and someone ale mutt dig under my fence and slipped in my yard and my male went after him. I called out sit and stay . If my male was not so well trained their be a dead dog now my female Silver who is female aggro has attacked and killed a stray that got in my yard. You must train any breed but, aggression must be accept with any breed my ex mother-in-laws rats are human aggressive. A dog aggro dog can be placed but, I would never place a human aggressive dog of any breed nor and over the top aggresser. Now my Ex mother-in-laws rats i think the breed is fiesti would have them put to sleep they bite eveyrone but, her a man bite of any breed must be delt with.Now i know when my APBT is hyper and trying to give you kisses she nips but, i deal with that by making her sit and telling her easy once she calms she does not nip. Stop it when it starts if you can if its an older dog it will take work but, anydog can be retrained my best friends Aussie was a biter when we got her and now three months later with the right treatment and care she has not snapped once. Remember most rescuse are stressed and scared. That is the most important think. Inform they buyers and don't be scared to check up on the dog or puppy. I inform all Chow Chow Buyers of the breed from its history to each puppies temperment i will not sell or give a lazy person a high engery dog. I also make it a clause in all contract for free and my chows then must do obedince training and any pet quitly puppy must be fixed if you say you buy a dog for pet it must be fixed by 6 months and gose with LTD reg. (only AKC DOes LTD that i know of ) LTD means the dogs puppies could never be reg.