A World Perspective- Is our box getting Smaller? APBT,Tosas, Bully Kuttas, & Kangals.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

This thread is intended to deal only with activities outside the US of A. and is for entertainment purposes only.

As usual, I do not support any activity that goes against the animal act blah blah blah blah blah blah...

Our box is getting smaller don't you see? It use to be the rat terriers that held their ground then it was our breed but now, we have other breeds that have been adapted to perform eagerly and effectively too. Where is this all leading? On our side of the world, we will die stating our dogs are best. On their side of world, the same question will receive variable answers all depending on their local breed (Tosa, Kutta, etc) of choice.

In order to compete in the world's box, are we, game-bred APBT owners (outside US of A), destined to increase our breeds size? Or remain the lightweights in this sport?

Yes, these larger breeds do tend to be slower acting than our breed (as heavy weight boxers are slower than lightweight) but have the opportunity to be matched regularly. In addition, it is reported that BK and Kangals fight at a very fast pace and hold their ground just as well as a game-bred APBT.

How are Hawaiian, Philippine, European, Asian strains dealing with the "new kids on the block"?

Should we be faithful to the "standard" or the breed's purpose?

Should we breed to the standard or performance?

If the purpose of the breed has change (or is changing) shouldn't the standard?

Why can't we increase our breed size (as did poodles although for different reasons i.e. toy, mall, medium, large poodles) while retaining gameness?

Is it impossible to retain GAMENESS while increasing size? Does increase of size directly decrease gameness?

Should our breed never enter the box against these breeds? Why?

How can we continue to state our dogs are best if we cannot prove it against WORLD opposition?

[miakoda]

Always be faithful. If you don't have faith in what you love & believe in, then get out.

And people go on & on about Tosas but one thing you don't realize is they don't fight to the death. They can't. They will both quit before that due to extreme exhaustion from having to make their massive bodies move.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Yes, I have seen these tosas work....not too impress but have read about Kangals and BK being highly prey-driven. In addition, as stated, they are larger animals and as such, will move slower than our smaller dogs. Just like boxers and MMA practitioners. In addition, those monster-bred "pit bulls" show the same slow movements.

Always be faithful. If you don't have faith in what you love & believe in, then get out.

And people go on & on about Tosas but one thing you don't realize is they don't fight to the death. They can't. They will both quit before that due to extreme exhaustion from having to make their massive bodies move.

[14rock]

Should we breed to the standard or performance?

Our standard is performance. It has been for centuries, and that is the reason we own the dogs we do. We dont need to change a damn bit, its been proven before who is victorious and the same holds true today.

[Will Power]

Why do you think a bigger game dog wouldn't do well? In bigger i mean 60 lbs. Do you watch K-1. Some of those smaller guys hold there own. In short There is no need to change anything, can't change perfection.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

If our dogs were "perfect" culling would not happen.
In short There is no need to change anything, can't change perfection.In my research, I have found that the Kangals and Bully Kuttas are regarded as best in their class (100lb+). The Tosa Uno is more of a Sumo Wrestler than a combatant.

The Bully Kutta (Chuta) differs in looks depending on locality. Breeding of these dogs have only recently assumed a standard which in turn will eventually lead to a standard look. Prior, breeders bred for performance much like our predecesors in England did our terriers. These dogs are a group of dogs rather than a single breed. This labeling by working type is what identifies a Bully Kutta for now.

The Kangals were bred as the ultimate livestock guardian. The kangals may grow to be over 200lbs fit weight! These dogs have been bred to defended livestock against wolves, bears, cougars, etc. There has been a report of one that defend its flock against 5 wolves. The dog stood its ground until the wolves retired. If the dog had attacked, it would have left its flock unprotected and at the mercy of the other wolves not in battle. There was another report of a Kangals (I think it was 250lb) who fought and defeated a bear to defend its flock. In addition, breeders of these dogs cull hard. They are also matched against each other and only the best are bred. This assures future generations will retain the skills, attitude, and temperament needed. One big difference with these dogs is snarling. This is a trait accepted by their breeders. Why is snarling accepted? It gives the predator an opportunity to flee!

There are different valid reasons to love our breed (i.e Looks, history, attitude, and purpose). Those who love the breed for its purpose please take note that our box is getting smaller. There is a decision to be made when it comes to it. We either accept and keep our dogs in the "lightweight" division or accept "natural evolution" and allow game-bred dogs to increase in size. Now, do not think I am advocating increasing size. This post is merely to start the wheels turning. Do not allow your PRIDE blind you of the facts. The facts are that we, in the US of A. have not experience their best dogs here in East nor them our best.

In the box, size does matter. Standard or performance? If it cannot perform against these dogs, should the standard be modified?

I would like to leave you with this statement made by someone posted on a different site:


"Its no wonder why game pit dogs owners are hated because their to caught up in their own dogs to looks around at the other greatness."

[thablacksheep]

There are different valid reasons to love our breed (i.e Looks, history, attitude, and purpose). Those who love the breed for its purpose please take note that our box is getting smaller. There is a decision to be made when it comes to it. We either accept and keep our dogs in the "lightweight" division or accept "natural evolution" and allow game-bred dogs to increase in size. Now, do not think I am advocating increasing size. This post is merely to start the wheels turning. Do not allow your PRIDE blind you of the facts. The facts are that we, in the US of A. have not experience their best dogs here in East nor them our best.

In the box size does matter. Standard or performance? If it cannot perform against these dogs, should the standard be modified?"natural evolution"... from the last time I checked lions are the size that they were many years before just like, fish, cows, elephants, zebra's, deers and so on and so forth. The standard size of the APBT has nothing to do with man manipulating "natural evolution" but rather than responsible dog men understanding how to breed for a specific gene, gameness, which in my book is the only standard necessary. Why should we modify the standard of our breed due to the accomplishments of another.

[14rock]

LOL I'll ackowledge them as the great dogs their owners claim when they finally step up and consistently win! Our dogs have been unparalled for centuries and I dont see it changing anytime soon. Anyways, I couldnt care less who is a better fighter....one because its illegal, and two because I admire gameness above everything else. We've known for years there are breeds out there that are bigger, bite harder, better wrestlers...whatever. The fact of the matter is.....we choose the one breed that is unparalled in a category we thought was more important "GAMENESS". As has been, and will be, gameness is what will continually make our dogs come out on top in their own sport.

[thablacksheep]

LOL I'll ackowledge them as the great dogs their owners claim when they finally step up and consistently win! Our dogs have been unparalled for centuries and I dont see it changing anytime soon. Anyways, I couldnt care less who is a better fighter....one because its illegal, and two because I admire gameness above everything else. We've known for years there are breeds out there that are bigger, bite harder, better wrestlers...whatever. The fact of the matter is.....we choose the one breed that is unparalled in a category we thought was more important "GAMENESS". As has been, and will be, gameness is what will continually make our dogs come out on top in their own sport.http://www.game-dog.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif couldnt agree with you more.

[Will Power]

Ok Rocky Culling is a part of life. Very touching stories. I have heard of a 50 lbs pit fight off two mountain lions in CA.
Ok maybe you didn't understand the word perfect. Wind, Power, GAME, Fast, Hard mouth The dogs you like are lacking one or more. Changing the size with bull sh!t breeding to get a bigger dog will change our perfect dog. You think thoses big ass mutts will go 3+ hours Like a pit can. Get a BANDDOG.
No Dog has it all but one.
But I like your post.

[14rock]

I wouldnt say our dogs have it all Will Power..but what they do have is the most important thing to have.

[Will Power]

Well i stick to what i said. If you think i am saying they can take on everything thats not what i am saying. APBT are the Ultimate Dog,

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Interesting that you mentioned our dogs fighting a mountain lion. I heard a long time ago that our breed was TERRIBLE against bears and mountain lions due to our breed's style (holds). I guess that should be placed together with the other myths.

Ok Rocky Culling is a part of life. Very touching stories. I have heard of a 50 lbs pit fight off two mountain lions in CA.
Ok maybe you didn't understand the word perfect. Wind, Power, GAME, Fast, Hard mouth The dogs you like are lacking one or more. Changing the size with bull sh!t breeding to get a bigger dog will change our perfect dog. You think thoses big ass mutts will go 3+ hours Like a pit can. Get a BANDDOG.
No Dog has it all but one.
But I like your post.
Here is my opinion on the matter. As of today, our dogs are the best in the sport (Outside of the US as we in the US do not go against the 1976 act ;) )

What makes an animal work hours without rest? Is it the lack of size alone?

Are large breeds only good for short-term work? Aren't there large breeds that work long hours in the farms, country, mountains, etc?

Can all the great attributes in our breed be preserved while allowing increase in size?

[SEAL]

why increase in size? look at it like weight classes you compete in the class you fall in you dont try to jump up two or three classes. you competer in the class you qualify for in your best physical shape. its that simple to me. if you want something to compete in the 200+ class you design a NEW dog. just like at a wrestling tournament your 150 guys wrestle 150 your 200 guys wrestle 200 and there is a difference in the way those two groups of men will wrestle and compete bcs of the size difference tactics and such must change also.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

First off, I am not proposing anything. What I mean by "increase size" is allow those game-bred dogs that happen to be larger than usual an oportunity to reproduce better than themselves rather than cull them due to their "larger" size.

I am not proposing to breed for size, color, or anything other than GAMENESS. As you know, some lines when tightly bred, will begin to throw large specimens. These dogs are more or less what I am referring to when I state "allow" increase in size.

I would not want to fatten my boy up to go against fit 140lb dogs...no way. My boy may be hot and ready but I am not stupid:cool:
why increase in size? look at it like weight classes you compete in the class you fall in you dont try to jump up two or three classes. you competer in the class you qualify for in your best physical shape. its that simple to me. if you want something to compete in the 200+ class you design a NEW dog. just like at a wrestling tournament your 150 guys wrestle 150 your 200 guys wrestle 200 and there is a difference in the way those two groups of men will wrestle and compete bcs of the size difference tactics and such must change also.

[Mercepitdog]

People can breed and feed what ever the hell they choose in my opinion. But I also noticed that not only the apbt is a superior fighting dog. Anything near its weight, the apbt is best hand downs. But, not only are there some breeds over there in the middle east that are near apbts weight class, they even have some larger beasts that can scratch like our little terriers! I see it like this, the more popular a breed, the worst its gets, but even there, even the people dont know what a kutta is! I say theres the best and the worst. Kuttas belong in the best!

The kangals may grow to be over 200lbs fit weight!

That is false my friend. The kangal should be 110-150 being the largest! How can a 200lb dog have enough to wind fight off wolfs and other such animals? Like or apbts having fake over sized dogs, the kangal is very popular in turkey, having knock offs and the rare well bred ones. Have a look

Working kangal

http://www.moloss.com/breeds/jkl/k001/ttk01.jpg

And the knock offs bred for nothing but looks and size ones

http://www.ozcankangallari.com/photogallery/KANGAL/Z%20(26).jpg

Well, the thing is, kangals mostly chase the animals off before they have to fight them, but will fight when needed to be. Turkish wolfs are smaller, coming in at 60-90lbs. And single wolfs are noting to speical to worry about in the first place, they evovled to hunt and to be able to get food not in fight in canine combat. Wolfs are infeior when its comes to fighting ablity, but their jaw power is quite impressive. And the Turks know that in packs, wolfs are deadly, so they place turkish collars around the dogs.

Turkish collar

http://www.cobankopegi.com/colla000.jpg

The kangal is able to fight aleast one or two wolfs at the same time, the collar really comes in handy when more wolfs are around, wolfs go for the necks like most dogs when fighting, to give the dog an edge vs is wild cusin, it gets a mouth full of spikes!

The kangal is NOT A FIGHTING BREED. Because they use them for fights means little to nothing when it comes to proving those gaint curs! They pit a 130lbs dog vs a 30lb god knows where pitbull and call it the best fighting dog. :p Silly turkish dogmen, tricks are for kids! When it comes to live stock guardians, the kangal is one of the kings, but to the fighting ring, its the apbt, tosa, bully kutta, and a few others who claim the top prize for the best! The kangal has no more fighting ability than the next larger dog.


They havent proven nothing then, and never would now

[Mercepitdog]

Well i stick to what i said. If you think i am saying they can take on everything thats not what i am saying. APBT are the Ultimate Dog,
Dog men with other fighting type breeds feel the same way. I call it the "dogman" disease lol

[Riptora]

I think that the newer breeds are very impressive and will only continue to become more so. I don't think pits should be changed what-so-ever, they are amazing for their size. The are truly compact, in handling dogs, I believe there is no breed that size that is as powerful as a pit. Dogs should be compared by substance more than size. You can most definately have an extremely agile dog at a much larger size, the doberman for example is between 65-75lbs and probably the most agile of them all and they can go forever. One my dobes could run at 45 miles per hr and I didn't push him but he would run until his pads cracked, he could scale several feet too and it would take hours for him to get tired. They don't have a great hunting drive though, so they would need to have a different design. I really like the Dogo Argentino, any comments on that breed? I say if you wanted a larger pit, it needs to be a new breed, which is something you could do, but I wouldn't there's no need, there are enough animals and there were dogs in the past that were superior in the pits but they became extinct because it was just too much.

[lockjaw]

we know..but should they...becareful

[Sid Finster]

People keep saying that, allother things being equal, a heavyweight will win a boxing match against a lighter boxer.

True enough, but successful heavyweight fighters typically weigh around 210 pounds, stand 5' 10" or so. They don't get that much bigger. Heavyweight fighters do NOT stand 6'7" and weigh 345 pounds, except in Rocky XXVII. There is no reason a 350 pound giant could not take up boxing, other than the fact that a smaller and more agile boxer would consistently kick his ass.

I know nothing about dog fighting, nor do I intend to take it up, but I suspect that the same holds true for fighting dogs. There is a maximum size and weight at which a canine gladiator will be successful. Any bigger and the dog will not be as effective.

[14rock]

Good arguement Sid....anyone who needs to see an example of which just watch Mirko "Crocop" vs Bob Sapp....Fedor has a couple matches like that also. I remember years ago, before weightclasses in ufc, a 600 lb. man getting beat by someone under 200 lbs. The little guy tired him out, got him knocked down and was relentless. The little guy wound up busting his wrist in multiple places from continuously chopping the back of this guys head....Just goes to prove, the little guy didnt have the knock-out power in one punch, and he was not as strong, and was also 1/3 the competitors size...but he was a game, and smart, and thats why he won.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

I did not make the weight up. I read it on another forum which had a picture of this massive and I do mean massive Kangal. It was a monster of a dog. I tried to find it but couldn't. If I find it (next week), I will post that monster. I think (not sure) it was a sample of their fighting kind of Kangal. I tell you, it was a monster (according to the poster on other site it was 285lbs).


The kangals may grow to be over 200lbs fit weight!

That is false my friend. The kangal should be 110-150 being the largest! How can a 200lb dog have enough to wind fight off wolfs and other such animals? Like or apbts having fake over sized dogs, the kangal is very popular in turkey, having knock offs and the rare well bred ones. Have a look

[Rocky H. Balboa]

I thought you were going to stand up for the big guys, big guy!

I remember that fight. It was marketed as the Sumo Wrestler (A Big black guy) against a Judo practitioner. As 14 stated, the little guy stood away from the big boy's grasp kicking the sumo on the legs until the legs could not hold the big boy up. Later on, the Judo practitioner stated that he did not want to stop punching in case the Sumo man got up. I was scare for Judo guy too!

Now don't start mentioning Bob Sapp. He is a frustrated Football player that was marketable to the Japanese due to his size and demeanour. He is still learning how to fight. I have seen many of his fights and he has NO GAME at all. I have seen him beg his corner to stop the fight and the corner attempting to convince him to continue. Not a fighter at all!

Now let's talk true fighters. Crocop vs Mark Hunt. There you have a "fat" man with an elephant heart and a head of steel.

OFF TOPIC....NOW LET'S GET BACK TO THIS REALLY GOOD THREAD (IF I DO SAY SO MYSELF:D
Good arguement Sid....anyone who needs to see an example of which just watch Mirko "Crocop" vs Bob Sapp....Fedor has a couple matches like that also. I remember years ago, before weightclasses in ufc, a 600 lb. man getting beat by someone under 200 lbs. The little guy tired him out, got him knocked down and was relentless. The little guy wound up busting his wrist in multiple places from continuously chopping the back of this guys head....Just goes to prove, the little guy didnt have the knock-out power in one punch, and he was not as strong, and was also 1/3 the competitors size...but he was a game, and smart, and thats why he won.

[Riptora]

Rocky's Human, I can believe a dog at 200lbs a monster, but 285? NO, that can't be right! it was a forum? they are probably all lies, big fish. I've never heard of a 285lb dog, ever, ever. That can't be right. I'm curious, I'm going to look into it too. A 285lb dog couldn't move, it's as ridiculous as a 600lb man, it's crazy.

Well, the pit bull is the best per pound I'm sure, but there are other breeds that can whoop a good pit. Not that it's fair though...

[14rock]

Now don't start mentioning Bob Sapp. He is a frustrated Football player that was marketable to the Japanese due to his size and demeanour. He is still learning how to fight. I have seen many of his fights and he has NO GAME at all. I have seen him beg his corner to stop the fight and the corner attempting to convince him to continue. Not a fighter at all!

There you go. Thats all that needs to be said. Frustrated...marketed by size and demeanour....just learning how to fight...NO GAME! Sounds to me like a direct comparison! ROFL

And actually,Sapp was a better fighter BEFORE training and learning how to fight.....he was unpredictable then, boxing an orthodox style hinders him greatly.

How about this (http://www.break.com/index/davidgoliath.html) fight.....yet another example of a great little (in comparison) guy easily handling a good bigger guy.

Fedor would be in comparison maybe a Tombstone, Alligator, or Mayday. He's larger than average but still not unproportionate. We dont need to breed for big dogs to win. We've won for years with small dogs,and will continue to do so. There dogs are evolving, ours are also.

Fights could easily be staged against say Bob Sapp and a small guy to show his superior size and strength (as he was many times).....that is whats going on with Kangals now. Put them up against bottom of the barrel APBT's and watch them win with ease. Top dogs from each breed (if it was legal) would yeild the same results as it always has before ;)

[realonebulldog]

Good arguement Sid....anyone who needs to see an example of which just watch Mirko "Crocop" vs Bob Sapp....Fedor has a couple matches like that also. I remember years ago, before weightclasses in ufc, a 600 lb. man getting beat by someone under 200 lbs. The little guy tired him out, got him knocked down and was relentless. The little guy wound up busting his wrist in multiple places from continuously chopping the back of this guys head....Just goes to prove, the little guy didnt have the knock-out power in one punch, and he was not as strong, and was also 1/3 the competitors size...but he was a game, and smart, and thats why he won. E X A C T L Y ...i agree:)

[ABK]

What I mean by "increase size" is allow those game-bred dogs that happen to be larger than usual an oportunity to reproduce better than themselves rather than cull them due to their "larger" size.There have been gamebred dogs larger than usual such as Pincher, GR.CH. Hank, GR.CH. Mayday, CH. Big John that were only not culled, but were bred many times. Their resulting offspring whether they be outcrossed, linebred or inbred did not retain the large size. That is b/c the large size is not natural in the APBT & flukes do not reproduce themselves unless that fluke trait is specifically bred for.

[miakoda]

One must also remember that many of the breeds like the Bully Kutta, Gull Terr, & the like, while they are fought in dog vs. dog matches, that is NOT there intended goal for breeding. The are most commonly used in animal fights vs. bears, lions, & other large animals where at least 2 dogs are pitted against the larger animal. Hence their much larger size (although the Gull Terr is smaller since it's a Bully crossed with a Bull Terrier but they are still much larger than the standard APBT). If I remember correctly what I was told, the dog fighting began as just a secondary outlet & used as a "training" method. So again, while the APBT was bred solely for one job, the dogs were too yet their job differed in the main "goal".

[simms]

There have been gamebred dogs larger than usual such as Pincher, GR.CH. Hank, GR.CH. Mayday, CH. Big John that were only not culled, but were bred many times. Their resulting offspring whether they be outcrossed, linebred or inbred did not retain the large size. That is b/c the large size is not natural in the APBT & flukes do not reproduce themselves unless that fluke trait is specifically bred for.
That's right.....

[Crash97]

The only real and definitive method to determine that, would be to put down high quality representatives of each breed by weight class and see. Kind of like a World Championship thing. But this of course would have to take place elsewhere...hypothetically.

[zer0]

I'm new here and this is my first post, so here is my 2 cents worth on our topic at hand...
I think the only one of these other breeds that have a chance is the Tosa Inu, because of their long history in the ring, (notice I said ring). The Japanese would not still use and breed these dogs if they didn't perform as desired. The differance is how they are breed, mostly for power, strength, ability, size; probally generally in that order. The gameness of the Tosa not sought after as with the APBT. In Japanese rules/ culture if you will, If one of these dogs quits in a match he will still most likely be kept and still bred/ cared they think the dog lost honorably and/or had a bad day and could come back to win a championship later. Sorta like in Boxing you don't have to be undefeated to hold the heavy weight championship. In the case of the APBT, most breeders (serious gamedog) want gameness first before the other traits, and size usually doesn't have any concern. If one of their dogs quit in the match it would be lucky to recieve his next meal (maybe not this harsh) but will deffinetly be changing adresses so to speak.
Now the way I see the matching going on, I think it should stay with in the same breed. Meaning APBT vs APBT, Tosa vs Tosa, and that's how I see alot of other people doing it as well. I think if 2 dogmen want to do a private contract and they meet wieghts and/or are ok with the differance....
they can do as they wish with their animals. The 2 breeds are bred for 2 differant aspects of the sport of fighting (in general) and wouldn't do much for either for their perspective breeding programs. The rules of the match would also be a major contributing factor on who wins. In the Japanese Tosa rules the Tosa would have an advantage because there is no outta holds, scratchin involved, the entire match is a constant dragged out match were the Tosa can throw his wieght onto the APBT, constantly pushing and constricting if you will the APBT possibly leaving him to blowout, beat down, smothered etc. Another facter is the APBT's style, if he's what I call a "turning dog"(as in a dog that shows bad signs but still would scratch back), or "crying dog"(wether it's pain or fustration or just crazy ass bulldog) the match will be called asap in favor of the Tosa. If the match is in cajun type rules APBT has hit almost hands down because Tosa's (in general) don't scratch worth alick, it's really not part of their breeding program or schooling, none the less if the Tosa does scratch the gameness will become an issue and the APBT has the gameness period. Now this "theory" would only really come into play if one doesn't kill the other .....

[realonebulldog]

If the match is in cajun type rules APBT has hit almost hands down because Tosa's (in general) don't scratch worth alick, it's really not part of their breeding program or schooling, none the less if the Tosa does scratch the gameness will become an issue and the APBT has the gameness period. I agree with 99 % but i dont believe that a dog can learn to scratch....:) I think its ONLY about the breeding program not about schooling.

[zer0]

I think its ONLY about the breeding program not about schooling.

I will agree with you, but have heard other peoples' theory on it and wanted to put it out there for both possiblities.

[thablacksheep]

this thread is real irrelevant and should be removed ASAP. Sorry Rocky but these are the wrong times for this topic. There have been two handfuls of men that have had they're dogs removed and killed from they’re homes by those who had ASSUMED that they were breeding fighting animals. I know that this is suppose to be "for entertainment purposes" but right now, it looks as if a lot of people are more concerned with the fighting aspect of the breed and not the positives, like confirmation shows, weight pulling events and so on. I really cant understand why you want opinions on this subject anyway's. It's seems as if you’re the only one that believes "our box is getting smaller"

[Mercepitdog]

I did not make the weight up. I read it on another forum which had a picture of this massive and I do mean massive Kangal. It was a monster of a dog. I tried to find it but couldn't. If I find it (next week), I will post that monster. I think (not sure) it was a sample of their fighting kind of Kangal. I tell you, it was a monster (according to the poster on other site it was 285lbs).
Hey, we didnt make it up abot having 100lb pitbulls did we?:) Same logic, the working kangals are very nice, NON DOG FIGHTING breed dogs. Besides, over their, the real kangals and owners, all they have is their flock and land, they cant afford to feed some crap for kangals in the first place! Now a 200lb dog would be useless in fighting off wolfs and fighting bears!


One must also remember that many of the breeds like the Bully Kutta, Gull Terr, & the like, while they are fought in dog vs. dog matches, that is NOT there intended goal for breeding. The are most commonly used in animal fights vs. bears, lions, & other large animals where at least 2 dogs are pitted against the larger animal. Hence their much larger size (although the Gull Terr is smaller since it's a Bully crossed with a Bull Terrier but they are still much larger than the standard APBT). If I remember correctly what I was told, the dog fighting began as just a secondary outlet & used as a "training" method. So again, while the APBT was bred solely for one job, the dogs were too yet their job differed in the main "goal".
Hold on, that may be true, but just like the apbt, some were only bred for the task of fighting to. Remember, 30 yearsa go, few people even knew of the apbt and its fighting tasks! I like youe point though, very good.

[14rock]

Hold on, that may be true, but just like the apbt, some were only bred for the task of fighting to. Remember, 30 yearsa go, few people even knew of the apbt and its fighting tasks! I like youe point though, very good.
Whaaa waaa whaaaaaaaaat?! :confused: APBT's were known almost exclusively by their fighting tasks up until probably 10-15 years ago! Dog-fighting was popular in this country all the way back to the 1800's with APBT. If anything, 30 years ago most didnt know of weightpulling, conformation with a true gamebred APBT, agility, flyball, and Schutzland with our breed....dog fighting (and the traits that come with a fighting dog) was all they knew about our breed.

[Mercepitdog]

Whaaa waaa whaaaaaaaaat?! :confused: APBT's were known almost exclusively by their fighting tasks up until probably 10-15 years ago! Dog-fighting was popular in this country all the way back to the 1800's with APBT. If anything, 30 years ago most didnt know of weightpulling, conformation with a true gamebred APBT, agility, flyball, and Schutzland with our breed....dog fighting (and the traits that come with a fighting dog) was all they knew about our breed.
No no, thats not what I meant. The everyday person back then didnt know much of breed until it became really popular. Fore, the reasons being, mostly only other dog men had the breed and used it for the tasks of fighting. The American Staff is an example of not being only bred for fighting. Their still pitbulls, but then again, their not.

Sorry if you were informed, get the point?

[Texasbulldogs]

The Kangal is not a “fighting breed”- won’t ever be one-least not a competitive one! The Bully Kutta is a fighting breed but one that sucks and can’t compete with the ABPT or Tosa Ken hence the reason they aren’t used in Japan or outside of Pakistan and India. They tend to be rank curs at best and didn’t do well in Japan</ST1:p. There were several winning Bully Kutta’s imported by the Pakistani Ambassador for Japanese dogmen and they all failed miserably. The APBT and Tosa Ken rain supreme in the world of fighting breeds! Most don’t give the Tosa Ken its respect in the states because they have only seen poor, overly large examples. The light weight Tosa’s are just a fast and skilled as most APBT’s and have won against them in contest.

For those in the service make the most of it and let Uncle Sam pay for you to witness great working dogs while in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1 /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1:pJapan</ST1:p</st1:country-region>! Lots of working kennels that have Tosa Ken’s and APBT’s so make lemonade out of the lemons! For those members currently on the island take the opportunity to make some contacts and see some shows. This is prime working time over there and in the next few months will be Tosa and Pit shows in <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1:pTokyo</ST1:p</st1:City>. In April there is the national Kyokai tournament coming up and the regional Fukyukai tournament, also the APCJ pit tournament in mid April in Saitama.

Here is a nice light weight Tosa Inu:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc24b3127cce974392f94bec00000016108casnLhp4

[Sid Finster]

zerO: last I checked, plenty of game APBTs lost matches and went on to be bred and score many times. A "game" dog is a dog that will not give up, not necessarily a dog that wins every fight.

[14rock]

...She did say a dog that QUITS. And yes, generally quitters are culled. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a game loser.

[Mercepitdog]

lol kuttas being poor fighting dogs.

[Riptora]

You can train a dog to do anything within it's physical abilities.

[realonebulldog]

You can train a dog to do anything within it's physical abilities. Sounds logical ...but it is not true ...physical abilities allone is not important...there are many dogs that are bigger and stronger than bulldogs...but no matter how hard you would train them...most little bulldogs are better fighters...even with poor training and I mean very friendly bulldogs:) You cant train a dog to fight or to fight better...you train him to give him wind and power.... But the fight is (or is not ) in the dog:) if you realy understand this you know enough.

[realonebulldog]

The Kangal is not a “fighting breed”- won’t ever be one-least not a competitive one! The Bully Kutta is a fighting breed but one that sucks and can’t compete with the ABPT or Tosa Ken hence the reason they aren’t used in Japan or outside of Pakistan and India. They tend to be rank curs at best and didn’t do well in Japan</ST1:p. There were several winning Bully Kutta’s imported by the Pakistani Ambassador for Japanese dogmen and they all failed miserably. The APBT and Tosa Ken rain supreme in the world of fighting breeds! Most don’t give the Tosa Ken its respect in the states because they have only seen poor, overly large examples. The light weight Tosa’s are just a fast and skilled as most APBT’s and have won against them in contest.

For those in the service make the most of it and let Uncle Sam pay for you to witness great working dogs while in Japan</ST1:p! Lots of working kennels that have Tosa Ken’s and APBT’s so make lemonade out of the lemons! For those members currently on the island take the opportunity to make some contacts and see some shows. This is prime working time over there and in the next few months will be Tosa and Pit shows in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1 /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1 /><st1:City w:st=<ST1:pTokyo</ST1:p</st1:City>. In April there is the national Kyokai tournament coming up and the regional Fukyukai tournament, also the APCJ pit tournament in mid April in Saitama.

Here is a nice light weight Tosa Inu:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc24b3127cce974392f94bec00000016108casnLhp4 So what the heck.....some say the very large tosas have won against some bulldogs....now you sayd the lightweight tosas have won against bulldogs...i believe it only if i see it only when i see it with my own brown-green eyes!!!:) All i have seen from tosas.....you know to slow...no wind and skill...cant get good holds...no real finisher...rarely good leg dogs...after 30 min no speed anymore..scratchin...whats that? AND so on....but the dog above looks good...i bet its a bulldogmix:)......(all only for historical purposes) :)

[Mercepitdog]

So what the heck.....some say the very large tosas have won against some bulldogs....now you sayd the lightweight tosas have won against bulldogs...i believe it only if i see it only when i see it with my own brown-green eyes!!!:) All i have seen from tosas.....you know to slow...no wind and skill...cant get good holds...no real finisher...rarely good leg dogs...after 30 min no speed anymore..scratchin...whats that? AND so on....but the dog above looks good...i bet its a bulldogmix:)......(all only for historical purposes) :)
I can be believe. I'm refuse to believe the apbt is the only worthy match dog in history.

[Texasbulldogs]

So what the heck.....some say the very large tosas have won against some bulldogs....now you sayd the lightweight tosas have won against bulldogs.
I don’t “say” I’ve seen it and witnessed it with my own eyes while over there thanks to Uncle Sam! Problem is most love to “talk” yet most doing all the talking have never even seen a performance breed Tosa Inu let alone seen one working.

i believe it only if i see it only when i see it with my own brown-green eyes!!!
Well nothing stopping you from going and witnessing it yourself! Japan</ST1:p is a great place to visit and the only first world country which it’s legal to match dogs.

All i have seen from tosas.....you know to slow...no wind and skill...cant get good holds...no real finisher...rarely good leg dogs...after 30 min no speed anymore..scratchin...whats that?
Typical replies and BS from individuals that have never seen the Tosa Ken work (be surprised if they seen an APBT work also). To have respect for the breed you first have to have respect for the rules! You can’t judge a breed based on Cajun rules when they compete and are breed for traditional Japanese rules (for the most part). Some may disagree with the traditional Japanese rules for matching but they are set that way to determine the better fighter while minimizing the physical harm to the dog. Under traditional rules-the APBT in not always superior to the Tosa and is fairly evenly matched from what I seen. There have been a few Ozeki and Yokozuna titled APBT’s in the smaller Tosa associations. But by large the Tosa holds it’s own and it makes no sense for the Japanese dogmen to abandon their lightweight (68lbs) Tosa’s in favor of the “large pits” to remain competitive.
The facts remain a good heavy weight Tosa is a significantly more powerful animal than your average 40-65lb APBT. Trouble is most if they’ve even seen a performance Tosa Ken it’s been via video and power doesn’t get conveyed accurately over it. Take my word for it two heavy weight Tosa’s going at it is a sight to behold! Tosa’s don’t have the wind or speed of an APBT but they are much more powerful. Most just don’t like to give a performance gladiator its props.

but the dog above looks good...i bet its a bulldogmix
Of course it does…review the breed and the mixes it’s made up of. Though the smaller weight class Tosa’s do have more pit influence than the large weight classes.<O:p</O:p

Attached is a picture of a APBT used in the creation of the early Tosa (Japanese caption says; "American Fighting Dog").

[Texasbulldogs]

Here are a couple of more competitive lightweight Tosa Inu’s. You can see the Japanese dogmen breed their dogs much like Western dogmen-based solely on performance standards hence the various looks. To compare an obese conformation blob with a performance Tosa Ken is as insulting as comparing a game-bred APBT to a 100lb “pet bull”. Ok, enough of the Tosa talk for me.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc27b3127cce974c7bee421c00000016108AcM2jRk5aNn

Those serving currently and in Japan go see this beast (below) at the Kyokai tournament.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc27b3127cce974c7bd6422400000016108AcM2jRk5aNn

[japangame]

Believe in your breed. Period and end of sentance. I know by experiance with Tosas and these animals that you talk about. You ask about size change, its been done. Out crossing with "Show and Weight Pull" Castillo-Colby, Castillo-Jeep/Red Boy, and many others. Gameness is there. You just have to put the dog in the situation to bring the gameness out. Then you will answer your own question. Trust and have faith in your breed. Period and end of sentance.

[japangame]

what im tryin to say, Tosas are good workin dogs and the questions had aroase when i first came to japan to see if i would put my 45lb APBT against a 63lb Tosa-ken. The Tosa fought well, and to my surprise, was a great gladiator, but i then realized that the Tosa was giving the fight away due to loss of wind, and stamina. I will not knock the Tosa-ken. But i do believe in my breed. No questions asked.

[realonebulldog]

what im tryin to say, Tosas are good workin dogs and the questions had aroase when i first came to japan to see if i would put my 45lb APBT against a 63lb Tosa-ken. The Tosa fought well, and to my surprise, was a great gladiator, but i then realized that the Tosa was giving the fight away due to loss of wind, and stamina. I will not knock the Tosa-ken. But i do believe in my breed. No questions asked. E x a c t l y that is what i think.....tosas may be strong and awesome powerfull dogs....but if they are not able to finish the job in say 30 min....then the little smart fighter on the other site shows his colors....and HE has the wind , skill and HE WILL work until the job is done.....and one last question....why did japanes cross bulldogblood in there lines....if the tosa is better...well that makes no sense...or?:)

[Iverson's Pits]

Do you have first hand experience with Castillo/RBJ or the like? I've seen castillo dogs go the extra mile, but never truly matched. They are down from OFRN, and imagine that a cross back to deep game stuff would be successful.



Believe in your breed. Period and end of sentance. I know by experiance with Tosas and these animals that you talk about. You ask about size change, its been done. Out crossing with "Show and Weight Pull" Castillo-Colby, Castillo-Jeep/Red Boy, and many others. Gameness is there. You just have to put the dog in the situation to bring the gameness out. Then you will answer your own question. Trust and have faith in your breed. Period and end of sentance.

[japangame]

E x a c t l y that is what i think.....tosas may be strong and awesome powerfull dogs....but if they are not able to finish the job in say 30 min....then the little smart fighter on the other site shows his colors....and HE has the wind , skill and HE WILL work until the job is done.....and one last question....why did japanes cross bulldogblood in there lines....if the tosa is better...well that makes no sense...or?:)
that is a wonderfull question. I dont have all the answers and i dont think anyone in the world dose. Thanks for the backing. I will continue to represent the APBT to the fullest here in Japan as long as I live. Like I said. Im game in my dogs and heart, and my gameness can not be measured when it comes to my breed because there is no scale large enough to measure it. I fight for them and they fight for me. And there is more love for them then my wife LOL. at least thats what she says. I say if there is any dog that is better than an APBT then let them come see me, and i will put myself in the pit and fight. Tosa-kens are not a threat.

[japangame]

Do you have first hand experience with Castillo/RBJ or the like? I've seen castillo dogs go the extra mile, but never truly matched. They are down from OFRN, and imagine that a cross back to deep game stuff would be successful.
I have the outcross. And the lines are very deep in the game. What no body knows or wants to admit is that Castillo is all originally game and the OFRN was and is a very respectable line. I curently have 2 back home that are of the RBJ/Castillo line and they are some of the best in my yard.

[Texasbulldogs]

Tosas are good workin dogs and the questions had aroase when i first came to japan to see if i would put my 45lb APBT against a 63lb Tosa-ken.
What sanctioned organization did you compete in? I find it odd you state you’ve competed with the whole breed. Much like in the states-backyard rolls don’t count for crap! Kind of strange you state your dog pushed 18 lbs uphill and won, either you’re lying or you went into a crap dog. Heck Zebo was only a few pounds lighter than your dog and going uphill 3lbs was almost too much for him to overcome.

but if they are not able to finish the job in say 30 min....then the little smart fighter on the other site shows his colors
Funny how individuals (that never seen a Tosa) attempt to discredit the Tosa Ken yet will praise APBT bloodlines breed for barnstorming and mouth-not gameness.

why did japanes cross bulldogblood in there lines....if the tosa is better
I’d guess the same reason they cross Pointers, Great Danes, Mastiffs, St. Bernard’s, etc.-called creating a breed! The above statement shows you knowledge-severely lacking!

say if there is any dog that is better than an APBT then let them come see me, and i will put myself in the pit and fight. Tosa-kens are not a threat.
Then why not meet compete with your dog in sanctioned events? You’re in and it’s legal and numerous clubs that you can compete with-even well established APBT only ones that go by the Cajun rules. You talk about how you’ve got such a great dog-stop the talking and start SHOWING! Just remember in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=Japan </ST1 /><st1:country-region w:st=<ST1:pJapan</ST1:p</st1:country-region> it take 6 wins to obtain the title “Grand Champion”. They are still excepting entries to some of the upcoming events listed above.

[jasong]

Ok Rocky Culling is a part of life. Very touching stories. I have heard of a 50 lbs pit fight off two mountain lions in CA.
Ok maybe you didn't understand the word perfect. Wind, Power, GAME, Fast, Hard mouth The dogs you like are lacking one or more. Changing the size with bull sh!t breeding to get a bigger dog will change our perfect dog. You think thoses big ass mutts will go 3+ hours Like a pit can. Get a BANDDOG.
No Dog has it all but one.
But I like your post.
Maybe the old school dogs went that long but not now. You would be hard pressed to find a match last longer than 30 minutes now. People are breeding for fast lane dogs now and those matches never go more than an hour. Maybe the old school dogs could do it but that just isn't the case now. Don't emblish it b/c it's just not the truth anymore.

[Iverson's Pits]

what dogs are you messin with??? i consistantly see dogs going 1:15-1:45



Maybe the old school dogs went that long but not now. You would be hard pressed to find a match last longer than 30 minutes now. People are breeding for fast lane dogs now and those matches never go more than an hour. Maybe the old school dogs could do it but that just isn't the case now. Don't emblish it b/c it's just not the truth anymore.

[Riptora]

I unfortunately have yet to see any Tolsas, but I do have to say that ever since I begin looking into the breed I have been impressed. I also think that you can tell a bit about a breed by it's origin. For example I can almost garauntee that any German breed is an amazing and well thought-out mixture of canines because Germans are hard-core dog people. American breeds are also wonderful and Canadians have the best horses (US is 2nd in that dept. in my opinion) Japan breeding is also something taken very seriously, they also are a country were honor and strength is somthing not taken lightly, they very much enjoy seeing examples of this and they also have a great history of producing some of the most awsome breeds we know today, so simply knowing these things and seeing pictures, reading what I have read about the Tosa Inu, I really don't think you guys are giving credit where credit is due.

Good job Texasbulldogs for trying to keep these guys informed on this great breed.

PS seriously though, I still want to see proof that a 285lb tosa exists! I know one of you read it on a forum which could have been written by anyone... it's BS

[14rock]

I just have a quick question....is Tosa Inu the same as a Tosa Ken ?

[Texasbulldogs]

I just have a quick question....is Tosa Inu the same as a Tosa Ken ?
“Ken” (the breed) – “Inu” (dog)
<O:p</O:p
Since I've posted some lightweights figured I'd show some middle and heavyweights.

This is T's Kairyu (middleweight)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce05b3127cce9499912625ae00000035118AcM2jRk5aNn

Heavyweights
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce05b3127cce94999100258800000025118AcM2jRk5aNn
One more heavyweight (waiting for opponent to enter)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce05b3127cce949991f0257800000026108AcM2jRk5aNn

[tomoe]

Very informative posts as always Texasbulldogs. Thanks for all the info!

[Riptora]

They are gorgeous! I read the weight range is between 140-200lbs which is massive, I have seen 200lb animals but 285 just can't be possible! At least not unless it's a world record. I was just reading-up on this breed some more and they sound even better than I remember. Anyone own one of these?

Also known as the Tosa Token or Japanese Mastiff

[jasong]

Please inform me of some recent matches that have gone into the 2+ hour range. Then compare the numbers from old to the numbers of today and you will see what I mean.

[realonebulldog]

why did japanes cross bulldogblood in there lines....if the tosa is better
I’d guess the same reason they cross Pointers, Great Danes, Mastiffs, St. Bernard’s, etc.-called creating a breed! The above statement shows you knowledge-severely lacking! Yes some look like coonhounds...others like filas...ok that makes a sense...like you sayd they cross pointers,great danes, mastiffs, St. bernhards and so on in her lines.....Hmmmm....and then you sayd this thing about Zebo....3lbs more and he had a problem.....but you know he never fought against souch mix hybrids...or? If he fight against another well bred bulldog...ok you have to watch the weight....but against pointer bernhard mastiff somewaht more? Come on....lol Texas bulldog you do me wrong if you think i have no idea ...and i respect other old breds....but i know(and you too:) )how a little bulldog is able to outsmart a big and strong dog.....its sometimes unbelievable...but you know...not just dogs...B u l l d o g s:)

</ST1:p

[Texasbulldogs]

Yes some look like coonhounds...others like filas...ok that makes a sense...like you sayd they cross pointers,great danes, mastiffs, St. bernhards and so on in her lines.
Since when did dogmen start caring about the “looks” of a performance dog? The breeds mentioned were hardcore working canines a hundred plus years ago and not the empty shells they are today. But it seems to be beyond your grasp to realize it yet probably clueless to the fact many of the same breeds used to breed to their native Spitz dogs to start the creation of the Tosa Ken was also the same used in the creation of the APBT. You are trying to place too much emphasis on the various breeds that was used-its constant evolution and breeding for the box/ring that’s made the Tosa Ken what it is today! Much like with the ABPT and Am Staff their will be a huge difference between the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=Japan </ST1:p</st1:country-region>bred Tosa’s and the Western bred ones.

Hmmmm....and then you sayd this thing about Zebo....3lbs more and he had a problem.....but you know he never fought against souch mix hybrids...or?
What’s a “mix hybrid”? If you’re calling the Tosa Ken a mixed hybrid…what would you consider the APBT? Only an imbecile or one that’s never worked a dog or competed themselves would not think weight has a huge advantage! If in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pJapan</ST1:p</st1:country-region> seek some of the kennels that raise both breeds and compete-easy win for you. I’d be highly impressed if you have or have even petted an APBT that could last 10-15 minutes with a true box/ring bred Tosa. The ABPT is lb for lb the best dog but given the size of the Tosa Ken most don’t stand a chance!

If he fight against another well bred bulldog...ok you have to watch the weight....but against pointer bernhard mastiff somewaht more?
Again you’re trying to compare the breeds used in its make-up like it was done recently. If you consider the Tosa Ken a mix you damn sure better consider the APBT and a host of other breeds “mixed”! But you’re arguing a point you yourself are clueless about! Odds are you’ve never seen a Tosa and if you have it’s been an over sized mutts. You also think of the show prancing fat UKC “pit bulls” are the same as a proven game-bred APBT?

Come on....lol Texas bulldog you do me wrong if you think i have no idea ...and i respect other old breds....but i know(and you too )how a little bulldog is able to outsmart a big and strong dog
You don’t have a clue nor know what you’re talking about or else you’d realize and view the facts-majority of the time a Tosa will kill a game-bred APBT…gameness is seldom a factor. Much like with certain bloodline in the APBT-handlers don’t plan on their dog being in their long enough to see its gameness and know if after said “time limit” if the other dog isn’t dead or picked up their dog will quit. It’s one thing to like and prefer a breed of dogs and something totally different to think of them machines that can overcome any obstacle. Much like with humans the best 100-120lb wrestler in the world the majority of the time couldn’t beat the average heavyweight wrestler-size won’t allow it nor do they have the strength. The heavyweight wrestler will pummel and have his way with the lighter one.

[japangame]

I just have a quick question....is Tosa Inu the same as a Tosa Ken ?
“Ken” (the breed) – “Inu” (dog)
<O:p</O:p
Since I've posted some lightweights figured I'd show some middle and heavyweights.

This is T's Kairyu (middleweight)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce05b3127cce9499912625ae00000035118AcM2jRk5aNn

Heavyweights
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce05b3127cce94999100258800000025118AcM2jRk5aNn
One more heavyweight (waiting for opponent to enter)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce05b3127cce949991f0257800000026108AcM2jRk5aNn
Well tex, what you dont know about people, you should research....Like i said before, I do not knock the Tosa at all. It is a great gladiator, and yes my dog did perform in an unrecorded match against the tosa, but it was completely by the rules of a proffecianal scratch and he did come out successful. The match was set by a person who wanted to learn more about the APBT, and It was my desicion to match my dog against his already 3 time champ. He was a very friendly person and we are very close today. The tosa is a very competative dog and to me is probably the best in the Heavy weight devision. I respect the animal and its abilitys. What i am alittle distressed about is the fact that you would call someone a liar that you dont know. Im sorry if my comments offended you and I sencerly apologize for any problems that may occure for the ignorance my post might have caused. Like I said, I believe in my breed, period and end of sentance. And that is my point. Thank you.

[miakoda]

This thread will be closed if the discussion/admission or current dogfighting, whether you are in this country or not, be continued. To speak historically is one thing, to admit the ongoing activity of it personally is another. Clean it up.

[Texasbulldogs]

Well , what you dont know about people, you should research
Hard to “research” when the Japanese dogmen or sanctions club you visited was never stated.

The match was set by a person who wanted to learn more about the APBT, and It was my desicion to match my dog against his already 3 time champ.
Not seeing the logic-Japan has a huge “pit bull” club and registry though not as big as the Tosa clubs. Yet this person wanted to learn from you versus the decades of experienced working kennels in Japan</ST1:p with proven working dogs? I venture to say most of the well known kennels that compete with both breeds have decades more experience than you with both breeds than yourself. Sounds like a roll given you state it was done “rules of a proffecianal scratch” funny how they only use traditional rules or Cajun and the Tosa’s are competed under “traditional rules”.

What i am alittle distressed about is the fact that you would call someone a liar that you dont know.
Not sure what there is too be “distressed about”? I plainly said “lying or went into backyard crap”. Judging by your post it sends many red flags-like you competing against the breed, someone that can easily visit and learn about the dogs, seeks yours, you don’t know what rules you competed under just “rules of a proffecianal scratch”, etc. all of which add up to someone uneducated on the breed and how the Japanese dogmen compete with their dogs or they are simply lying and making stuff up that they read online.

Im sorry if my comments offended you and I sencerly apologize for any problems that may occure for the ignorance my post might have caused.
No need to apologize-only text which doesn’t offend me! Just giving my opinion on the various breeds and what I’ve seen of them.

[Iverson's Pits]

have you ever been to Japan Tex? Cause I'm readin alot of "I know this..." and "you dont know about this..." out of your posts. Its is a REGULAR occurance to match APBTs and Tosas over here. Granted, where I am in Japan is completely different than where JapanGame is, but that is the deal. Accept it or not...I've been here for over 3 years, how often do you visit japan? Most out here live by the Cajun rules, and most Matched Tosas are around 95-120 lbs. I have seen both/either sides come out victorious (historically, of course :) ) . I'm not a fan of the idea of matching Tosas and APBT's...it just doesn't make sense. However, it is a new kind of challenge for both breeds that will definitely make them better match dogs broadening their experience and abilities while in combat. All I'm sayin is...you're pretty damn quick to judge and attack about something YOU probably have no idea about....think about that for a min.

[japangame]

have you ever been to Japan Tex? Cause I'm readin alot of "I know this..." and "you dont know about this..." out of your posts. Its is a REGULAR occurance to match APBTs and Tosas over here. Granted, where I am in Japan is completely different than where JapanGame is, but that is the deal. Accept it or not...I've been here for over 3 years, how often do you visit japan? Most out here live by the Cajun rules, and most Matched Tosas are around 95-120 lbs. I have seen both/either sides come out victorious (historically, of course :) ) . I'm not a fan of the idea of matching Tosas and APBT's...it just doesn't make sense. However, it is a new kind of challenge for both breeds that will definitely make them better match dogs broadening their experience and abilities while in combat. All I'm sayin is...you're pretty damn quick to judge and attack about something YOU probably have no idea about....think about that for a min.
Much aprieciated Iversons pits. by the way tex, you say your here to state your opinion about the breed were as i have seen that you have only stated your opinion about the people who are posting. But in all actuallity, this thread has gottin out of hand because of the back and forth BS. And by the way, i have a pedigree as long as my animals. the APBT has been in my family for 4 generations and will continue on with my children im sure. So as for knowlege on or about the breed and the actions they take place in, I feel that I am decently knowlegable, I dont know everything, but I am very willing to learn as much as possible. Maybe the apologizing was un-needed since this is all just "opinions." Let me throw this out there for the one who post so quickly about something he/she feels they know everything about. "Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much. Wisdom is humble that he knows no more." Research that Tex. Onigaishimasu.

[realonebulldog]

This thread will be closed if the discussion/admission or current dogfighting, whether you are in this country or not, be continued. To speak historically is one thing, to admit the ongoing activity of it personally is another. Clean it up. Whe talk about japan or? Hell whats going on in the U S A ....you have allready a radikal regime?:)

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=Texasbulldogs] If you consider the Tosa Ken a mix you damn sure better consider the APBT and a host of other breeds “mixed”! Ok I learned much.....thanks...you told me about all the breds that the today tosa help to build....and now one last question....tell me about the different breds that created ouer Bulldogs.....and please dont talk about Terriers:)

[realonebulldog]

...She did say a dog that QUITS. And yes, generally quitters are culled. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a game loser. I think its better to bred a game 10 time loser then a 10 time multi time winner....:)

[Texasbulldogs]

have you ever been to Japan Tex?
Yes-as I stated previously. Last time I was there was at the Tokke Tosanki Kyokai tournament. If you’re into that scene there then contact the individual that imported the first Redboy/Jocko dogs (Big JohnXSabre, Little JohnXC.P., HitlerXBlonde, and CycloneXMiss Kitty(?)) to that country and ask him who introduced him to Sonny and his dad.

Granted, where I am in Japan</ST1:p is completely different than where JapanGame is
Well then you should know the guy that imported Ch. Eightball or contact <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=Japan </ST1 /><st1:country-region w:st=<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = " /><st1:City w:st="on">Fuji</st1:City>’s (double grch) owner in <ST1:pOkinawa</ST1:p. A grandson of Eightball that was a 50/50 Tosa/Pit cross that became Meiken Yokozuna is well known in the lightweight division. There are numerous hardcore dogmen in Okinawa and things don’t vary much between there and mainland <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pJapan</ST1:p</st1:country-region>.

how often do you visit japan?
Not as much as I’d like.

Most out here live by the Cajun rules, and most Matched Tosas are around 95-120 lbs.
How can you say “most” being the Tosa scene is 10 folds that of the pit bull?

However, it is a new kind of challenge for both breeds that will definitely make them better match dogs broadening their experience and abilities while in combat.
How is it “new” it has been happening for decades well before WWII?

All I'm sayin is...you're pretty damn quick to judge and attack about something YOU probably have no idea about....think about that for a min.
When and/or how did “I judge” anyone?

[Rocky H. Balboa]

I am still searching for the specific post where the 285lb Kangal was mentioned with picture for the meantime, here is another site (I could not access but from the original poster's comments it is of two working Kangals in Turkey. Let me know how they look:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3028/1a1pj.png (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3028/1a1pj.png)

Here is another link of working dogs picture (flock protection):

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2351/50694624eb.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2351/50694624eb.jpg)

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/6103/50694611py.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/6103/50694611py.jpg)

New addition of a reported Game-bred Kangal: http://www.kangalkopekleri.com/images/sizden_gelenler/halil_ibrahim_sari/23.jpg

Here are other links to what I think are Bully Kuttas (I do not have the ability to view, thus, viewer beware)
*Edit-not appropriate.[/url]

Just added:
[url="http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/AB%20shaow%20039%20copy.jpg"]http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/AB%20shaow%20039%20copy.jpg (http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/6347/blodige8gu.jpg)
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/jag5%20adobe.jpg (http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/jag5%20adobe.jpg)

Here is another of a reported king of the ring (Note that the Toros is 235lbs and 85cm at shoulders):<table class="ev_msg_rowcolor1" style="width: 100%;" align="center" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="ev_msg_userinfo">






</td><td><table class="ev_msg_table" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="ev_msg_posticon">
</td><td class="ev_msg_timestamp">Posted<script>document.write('<nobr>'+ myTimeZone('Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:40:37 GMT-0800', '07 February 2006 05:40 PM')+'</nobr>');</script> <nobr>07 February 2006 05:40 PM</nobr> <noscript>07 February 2006 05:40 PM</noscript></td></tr></tbody></table>They aren't scared of any thing!





Like Sherkan
http://www.kangalkopekleri.com/images/sizd...nur_kanli/2.jpg (http://www.kangalkopekleri.com/images/sizd...nur_kanli/2.jpg)
or Zorba
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/247/zorba7tf.png (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/247/zorba7tf.png)
or Toros
http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/9550/21py1.jpg (http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/9550/21py1.jpg)
or mighty King Duman
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3292/55606314qc.jpg (http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3292/55606314qc.jpg)
or Hoyrat(Sherkans Son)
http://www.kangalkopegim.com/sizden/kaparhoyrat/2.jpg (http://www.kangalkopegim.com/sizden/kaparhoyrat/2.jpg)
or Balak(King Balaks Cousin)
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/6817/56067021dh.jpg (http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/6817/56067021dh.jpg)

And this one u already know
King Balak
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5015/53857814tt.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5015/53857814tt.jpg)



</td></tr></tbody></table>
I will add to this in a few minutes (I am still searching)

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Here it is! The reported 285lb "game-bred" Kangal:

http://www.intoko.com.tr/photos/c/86/497772_1.jpg (http://www.intoko.com.tr/photos/c/86/497772_1.jpg)

[Will Power]

Hey Iverson Where on the island are you from? I Live in Ok city For 4 years.

[Iverson's Pits]

so than you know where Kadena Air Base is at??? Gate 2 area??? That's where im at.

Hey Iverson Where on the island are you from? I Live in Ok city For 4 years.

[Iverson's Pits]

Well then, I retract my previous statements, as it seems you know a bit about the game over here. That is awesome! You may know Troy then??? The Cajun statement was from what I've seen and learned, and wasnt meant to encompass every match that happens in this country. According to the dogmen i've been learning from, Tosa X APBT matches do not happen as much as one might think, but recently, as Tosas have been improving in many areas...it is happening more and more...hints the "new challenge" comment. I have personally only seen 6 such circumstances. I'd like to hear what you know about the history of Okinawan Game Dogs and the Introduction/importation of American Bred champs to the island. That would be really cool. My "sensei", if you will :) the old dogger i've been under is gone now (in the PI), and I'm leaving soon. It'd be awesome to get a little more info.


have you ever been to Japan Tex?
Yes-as I stated previously. Last time I was there was at the Tokke Tosanki Kyokai tournament. If you’re into that scene there then contact the individual that imported the first Redboy/Jocko dogs (Big JohnXSabre, Little JohnXC.P., HitlerXBlonde, and CycloneXMiss Kitty(?)) to that country and ask him who introduced him to Sonny and his dad.

Granted, where I am in Japan</ST1:p is completely different than where JapanGame is
Well then you should know the guy that imported Ch. Eightball or contact <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:country-region w:st=Japan </ST1 /><st1:country-region w:st=<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = " /><st1:City w:st="on">Fuji</st1:City>’s (double grch) owner in <ST1:pOkinawa</ST1:p. A grandson of Eightball that was a 50/50 Tosa/Pit cross that became Meiken Yokozuna is well known in the lightweight division. There are numerous hardcore dogmen in Okinawa and things don’t vary much between there and mainland <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pJapan</ST1:p</st1:country-region>.

how often do you visit japan?
Not as much as I’d like.

Most out here live by the Cajun rules, and most Matched Tosas are around 95-120 lbs.
How can you say “most” being the Tosa scene is 10 folds that of the pit bull?

However, it is a new kind of challenge for both breeds that will definitely make them better match dogs broadening their experience and abilities while in combat.
How is it “new” it has been happening for decades well before WWII?

All I'm sayin is...you're pretty damn quick to judge and attack about something YOU probably have no idea about....think about that for a min.
When and/or how did “I judge” anyone?

[Will Power]

so than you know where Kadena Air Base is at??? Gate 2 area??? That's where im at.
I stayed right out side camp foster.

[Riptora]

Rocky's Human, those are some beastly, freakish canines! I still can't believe that they could weigh over 200lbs though, where did you read the weight? I thought you got that info from a forum which could have been posted by anyone (big fish). I would be o-so-amazed if those dogs reach over 200, do you have a ligit source of info on the weights? some kind of official documentation by those involved with the dogs? I would love to know, I hate to be a pain, but I just don't believe it, but if it's true, I really want to know, but I know how much people stretch the truth.

[japangame]

Here it is! The reported 285lb "game-bred" Kangal:

http://www.intoko.com.tr/photos/c/86/497772_1.jpg (http://www.intoko.com.tr/photos/c/86/497772_1.jpg)
wow, that is a ginormous K-9 is. it really 295lb?that is amaizin if it is. It looks to be in good shape. Nice pic.

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=Rocky's Human]I am still searching for the specific post where the 285lb Kangal was mentioned with picture for the meantime, here is another site (I could not access but from the original poster's comments it is of two working Kangals in Turkey. Let me know how they look:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3028/1a1pj.png (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3028/1a1pj.png)

Here is another link of working dogs picture (flock protection):

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2351/50694624eb.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/2351/50694624eb.jpg)

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/6103/50694611py.jpg (http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/6103/50694611py.jpg)

New addition of a reported Game-bred Kangal: http://www.kangalkopekleri.com/images/sizden_gelenler/halil_ibrahim_sari/23.jpg

Here are other links to what I think are Bully Kuttas (I do not have the ability to view, thus, viewer beware)
*Edit-not appropriate.

Just added:
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/AB%20shaow%20039%20copy.jpg (http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/AB%20shaow%20039%20copy.jpg)
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/jag5%20adobe.jpg (http://webzoom.freewebs.com/bullykutta/jag5%20adobe.jpg)
L O L...Sorry but that aint dogs anymore....simply .........M O N S T E R:)

[zer0]

zerO: last I checked, plenty of game APBTs lost matches and went on to be bred and score many times. A "game" dog is a dog that will not give up, not necessarily a dog that wins every fight <!-- / message -->
I agree 100% Sid, but I did say a dog that quits. And I think you'd agree that simply losing a match is alot differant than quitting.

[zer0]

Iverson's Pits: We are in the same location. I was the one who messaged you the other night.

[Riptora]

See what I mean? LOOK, Japangame just subconsiouly added an additional 10lbs to the weight that was stated. This is why I am questioning it, and I've just never heard of dogs that large.

[Mercepitdog]

AINT NO GAME BRED KANGALS!!!!!!

They are a live stock guardian dog. Also the breed is in a bit of a jam like ours, because people are breeding them for their size and not just their working ability. Dont be gullable, do you think a 260lb dog can be a so called fighting dog? Game bred kangals? Might as well be some game bred labs if thats the case.

These turkish men would only be more than happy to claim their curs good fighting dogs when they know damn well that hoping is all they can do when it comes to the proven dogs.

[mikelia]

I saw that pic (aswell as the pic of the Kangal going at the other dog in a kennel) on a national geographic forum (or something like that) where there was a topic about if a kangal could beat a pit. There was one member (who posted those pics) that was desperately trying to prove that kangals are better. I would seriously doubt the dog is almost 300 pounds.

[wesley9]

having lack of faith in our breed , what a shame this might help

[wesley9]

go to the storys and read (they came from every walk of life)

[Mercepitdog]

I will never lose faith in OUR breed. But I will give points to the other dog men worthy of praise with their other breeds.

[Mercepitdog]

having lack of faith in our breed , what a shame this might help Damn, that southern flag turned me off

[japangame]

Well, Lets talk alittle about faith. Faith is the undieing want and belief in your breed correct? I have so much faith in my breed that I have been overtakin by the APBT. I have become what i believe in. Little man vs. Big Man. I am a welter wieght boxing instructor, and fighter. I have been boxing for 17 years,,,,thats right, i started at 5. I have been in many matches against all odds (School and Military)=(Human Back Yard Boogy Fights) that no-one thought of putting faith in me. All because the other oponent was chuto (alittle) bigger. But guess what, they just couldn't out move, out last and out fight me (the little guy). Do you know who was at each of these events? My dogs, at the sidelines cheering me on. I truley felt, that they had faith in me. Now I am one of them and I have nothin but faith, but i do respect other dog men's dogs. As i do respect the larger type fighters. If they would have gotten ahold of me when I was fighting, I might have lost;)

[Sid Finster]

At risk of repeating my fool self, I suspect that there is a optimal size and weight for a (hypothetical) fighting dog. Just as there is for human fighters.

I am sure that Japangame will agree that, even in heavyweight boxing or Ultimate Fighting or whatever, you don't see 7' 400 pound giants competing. This is no accident.

I am sure that the old-timer breeders could have bred larger APBTs, or crossed Dogue de Bourdeaux, Tosa, or whatever, but the old-time breeders had already created a breed that was the optimal size for Cajun-style dog fighting. This was also no accident.

Perhaps under different rules, a different type of dog would reign supreme as a fighter. I do not know.

However, backdoor breeders aside, we should leave developing absurd oversized specimens to professional wrestling and Gottiline/Woods dogs.

[realonebulldog]

Well, Lets talk alittle about faith. Faith is the undieing want and belief in your breed correct? I have so much faith in my breed that I have been overtakin by the APBT. I have become what i believe in. Little man vs. Big Man. I am a welter wieght boxing instructor, and fighter. I have been boxing for 17 years,,,,thats right, i started at 5. I have been in many matches against all odds (School and Military)=(Human Back Yard Boogy Fights) that no-one thought of putting faith in me. All because the other oponent was chuto (alittle) bigger. But guess what, they just couldn't out move, out last and out fight me (the little guy). Do you know who was at each of these events? My dogs, at the sidelines cheering me on. I truley felt, that they had faith in me. Now I am one of them and I have nothin but faith, but i do respect other dog men's dogs. As i do respect the larger type fighters. If they would have gotten ahold of me when I was fighting, I might have lost;) I think the optimal weight for a fightdog is between(and around) 15 and 30 KG.....and I believe that the real roots of ouer Bulldogs are not to find in Enland....they came between 10 and 12 centurie from india as a bred that had from his origin on(from the beginning of domesticatin) only one genetic task....the FIGHT. The aseel is another houspet that was bred in this area...and this animals had two for thousands of years only this genetic task....that separates them from from all other fightstuff...dont matter big or small...a yes i forgod...the indian wolves are something special...they are smaler than all other wolves and they are allways red or yellow colored.....:)

[Rocky H. Balboa]

I happen to agree with you re "Big Fish" this is why I posted the pictures and "disclaimer" for all of you. I do not know "as a matter of fact" the weight claimed is factual.

In addition, I can state that there are dogs that weight 285lbs. For example, St. Bernards hold the record (guinness) for heaviest dog(s).

Rocky's Human, those are some beastly, freakish canines! I still can't believe that they could weigh over 200lbs though, where did you read the weight? I thought you got that info from a forum which could have been posted by anyone (big fish). I would be o-so-amazed if those dogs reach over 200, do you have a ligit source of info on the weights? some kind of official documentation by those involved with the dogs? I would love to know, I hate to be a pain, but I just don't believe it, but if it's true, I really want to know, but I know how much people stretch the truth.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Yes, I noticed that too!
See what I mean? LOOK, Japangame just subconsiouly added an additional 10lbs to the weight that was stated. This is why I am questioning it, and I've just never heard of dogs that large.
Here is a site that tells of the world's record for heaviest/longest dog:

http://rulingcatsanddogs.com/dog-world-record-breakers-2.htm

It states the dog to be 343lbs and 8 feet 3 inches long.

Maybe 285lbs was a "Big Fish".

[Will Power]

http://members.lycos.nl/bullmastifffreak/hpbimg/427carride2fz.jpeg

This is the only pic i could find looks fake to me. But What do you think?

[rocksteady]

Yes, I noticed that too!

Here is a site that tells of the world's record for heaviest/longest dog:

http://rulingcatsanddogs.com/dog-world-record-breakers-2.htm

It states the dog to be 343lbs and 8 feet 3 inches long.

Maybe 285lbs was a "Big Fish".
it also states on that page that these records have not been validated..

[14rock]

My dad (as a child) owned the (up until that time) Worlds largest St. Bernard....it tipped the scales at 235 the last time it was weighed, and continued to grow after that point. Before a final weight could be taken on the dog, and upon euthanization a week after showing symptoms...the dog weighed I believe he said 185 lbs.

What is the point of that bit of info? That a breed bred specifically for HUGE size for hundreds of years was maxed out at 237 lbs(the record at that time, since they couldnt get the dog weighed above it before it died). and even though bred for huge size...the dog was very, very unhealthy and most definetly not athletic. Now I ask, if a breed bred specifically to be that large for years and was accustomed to its size has such genetic flaws and cannot work....what makes you believe a breed that is (relatively) new can pop out of nowhere, weigh 50 lbs. more than a dog bred for size for hundreds of years and still be athletic enough to be a decent fighter? I am throwing the BS flag on one of two things.

1.) The dog is no where near 285 lbs.

and/or

2.) The dog really cannot do anything more than eat, shit, and sleep. Let alone fight.

I have previously seen larger breed dogs fighting (historically of course- including mastiffs, tosas, and kangals)....but I have never seen a halfway athletic one over 160 lbs. I have seen larger dogs being used, to no success. You start getting that large in size and stamina and endurance are out the window. You are betting on a 5 minute flurry designed to look impressive, not hurt the dogs physically (save for getting winded), and basically be all show. Bottom line is Large breed dogs are not fighting dogs in the Cajun rules sense of the word. If you determine a "fighting dog" by cur-snapping, tail tuckers who are designed to look the part, and not act it....then consider them whatever you want in your misinformed mind. Tosas, kangals, and bully kuttas are impressive in their own right, but its just that in their own right, not at the APBT's game. You can argue "but its so much bigger IT HAS TO WIN!" all you want, but to me your no better than the backalley thug rolling rottweilers.

[Riptora]

14Rock, just for kicks do you have a pic of this beastly dog? I totally agree, there is little stamina in a human over 200 let alone a canine. Any dog getting into that weight range will be literally "rollin" he he... come on, that's funny.

Will Power, LOL, I'm going to bet that's fake! Any dog like that needs to be in a zoo! I'de pay good money to see one and feed it steaks!

[14rock]

14Rock, just for kicks do you have a pic of this beastly dog?

My fathers (previous) St. Bernard?

[Riptora]

Yes, that one. I'm like a child, I love to see pictures!

[realonebulldog]

[QUOTE=Rocky's Human]This thread is intended to deal only with activities outside the US of A. and is for entertainment purposes only.

As usual, I do not support any activity that goes against the animal act blah blah blah blah blah blah...

Our box is getting smaller don't you see? :) ok please answer me this question:Why people from all over the world(for example turkey,philipines,spain,südafrica,russia,japan,hol land,and and and...) have there APBT fancy....why they use T H I S dogs for fighting....breed T H I S dogs for combat....and why do spain and italie and japan breeders cross T H I S dogs in in tosa or pressa lines...W H Y ? Because the A P B T is indisputably the most effective fighting dog E V E R developed by man.Contests between Pit Bulls and other breeds of fighting dog have been staged by pit men time and time again, withe the results C O N S I S T E N T L Y supporting the contention that a APBT in fighting condition will , on a regular basis, defeat any other animal that has ever been caled a dog and then some P E R I O D E

[Iverson's Pits]

short. simple. true. i like it and agree 100% !



[QUOTE=Rocky's Human]This thread is intended to deal only with activities outside the US of A. and is for entertainment purposes only.

As usual, I do not support any activity that goes against the animal act blah blah blah blah blah blah...

Our box is getting smaller don't you see? :) ok please answer me this question:Why people from all over the world(for example turkey,philipines,spain,südafrica,russia,japan,hol land,and and and...) have there APBT fancy....why they use T H I S dogs for fighting....breed T H I S dogs for combat....and why do spain and italie and japan breeders cross T H I S dogs in in tosa or pressa lines...W H Y ? Because the A P B T is indisputably the most effective fighting dog E V E R developed by man.Contests between Pit Bulls and other breeds of fighting dog have been staged by pit men time and time again, withe the results C O N S I S T E N T L Y supporting the contention that a APBT in fighting condition will , on a regular basis, defeat any other animal that has ever been caled a dog and then some P E R I O D E

[Riptora]

I wouldn't take it as a threat against apbt's. I wouldn't be concerned, and the fighting style is different, so it's just different.

[realonebulldog]

I wouldn't take it as a threat against apbt's. I wouldn't be concerned, and the fighting style is different, so it's just different..............whats different ...? Dog is Dog and fight is fight........and when best of breed is matched against best of breed, the APBT will A L W A Y S come out ahead. In fights staged between 50 pound APBTs and others of the fighting breeds weighing in at well over a hundred pounds, the results are E V E R the same. Yes, maybe the bigger dog will dominate the match for 20 or 30 minutes until its stamina is gone and its lack of gameness becomes obvious. Thats the P R O V E N trues....:)

[Mercepitdog]

.............whats different ...? Dog is Dog and fight is fight........and when best of breed is matched against best of breed, the APBT will A L W A Y S come out ahead. In fights staged between 50 pound APBTs and others of the fighting breeds weighing in at well over a hundred pounds, the results are E V E R the same. Yes, maybe the bigger dog will dominate the match for 20 or 30 minutes until its stamina is gone and its lack of gameness becomes obvious. Thats the P R O V E N trues....:)
Well, there is video proof of kuttas. For large dogs, man oh man can they move. One scratched so hard it jumped almost over the dog and took it down with a mere two shakes. Someone from pakistan showed me the video

[jasong]

14Rock, just for kicks do you have a pic of this beastly dog? I totally agree, there is little stamina in a human over 200 let alone a canine. Any dog getting into that weight range will be literally "rollin" he he... come on, that's funny.

Will Power, LOL, I'm going to bet that's fake! Any dog like that needs to be in a zoo! I'de pay good money to see one and feed it steaks!
Wow, your statement of humans over 200lbs have no stamina is just crazy. Watch a Hwt. amature wrestling match and tell me that. Those big boys can move and do it for a long time. Sorry but I don't think you know what your talking about here buddy.

[14rock]

Jasong....I was a heavyweight wrestler at the end of my High School career, and started High school wrestling 160 lbs. There is a HUGE diffrence between the stamina of a big guy, and of a little guy, I felt it myself. Now there are some heavyweights who have great endurance...however it will never be to the same level as a lower-weight wrestler who trains just as hard in practice. I actually was at a huge advantage not being a true heavyweight (I should of been wrestling 189)..because I was much smaller and could move. My strategy everytime walking out on the mat was to shoot, shoot, shoot....keep the big guys moving, and by the second period they could hardly make a stand-up, let alone be real effective with anything other than throws. As a matter of fact, at Sectionals my last year wrestling, no heavyweight placed that was over 225 lbs (the cut off is 275, and the next weight class down is 215). As a heavyweight wrestler I loved nothing more than seeing my opponent was a 5'8'' 274 lb. fat-body....the good heavyweights are slowly becoming more and more lean and muscular, its no longer a fat mans throwing game....Whats happening is us smaller guys, work harder in the gym, got stronger than them, didnt max ourselves out to the weight limit and because of that had to carry around 65 pounds less than the true heavyweights. We were taking advantage of the decrease in stamina due to excess weight, and its the same in the dogs.

[realonebulldog]

Well, there is video proof of kuttas. For large dogs, man oh man can they move. One scratched so hard it jumped almost over the dog and took it down with a mere two shakes. Someone from pakistan showed me the video Just for Historycal purposes.....did the pakistany tell you how long are this matches? And that awesome scratch you wrote from.....was it a beginning scratch or somewhere deep in the match...say after 1 houer of a hard fight....i heard much good things from this kutas........however I think they have a good dash Bulldogblood.....:)

[Mercepitdog]

Just for Historycal purposes.....did the pakistany tell you how long are this matches? And that awesome scratch you wrote from.....was it a beginning scratch or somewhere deep in the match...say after 1 houer of a hard fight....i heard much good things from this kutas........however I think they have a good dash Bulldogblood.....:) *Edit-A little too much info for anyone. Please think a bit about what you are saying, and that its illegal-even if it was filmed where its not. Thank you.

[Riptora]

Yes, they fight differently, this was explained earlier in the forum by the ever informative Texasbulldogs... the matches are different because the rules are different. Size most definately matters and I hope no one thinks that just because there is a huge breed of dog that could possibly whip a good game pit should be upset. These dogs are different in many ways, that doesn't mean that apbt's are in anyway less than hard-core game and pit dogs, we love the design of apbt's. I don't see why some of you are taking it so personally. Pit bulls are still amazing and incredible, who cares if there are other match breeds that rock too? It's OK.

[Mercepitdog]

Yes, they fight differently, this was explained earlier in the forum by the ever informative Texasbulldogs... the matches are different because the rules are different. Size most definately matters and I hope no one thinks that just because there is a huge breed of dog that could possibly whip a good game pit should be upset. These dogs are different in many ways, that doesn't mean that apbt's are in anyway less than hard-core game and pit dogs, we love the design of apbt's. I don't see why some of you are taking it so personally. Pit bulls are still amazing and incredible, who cares if there are other match breeds that rock too? It's OK.
Thats how I see. I love these pit dogs there my breed of choice, I aint got no problems with other breeds and their greatness.

Nuff said

[realonebulldog]

*Edit-A little too much info for anyone. Please think a bit about what you are saying, and that its illegal-even if it was filmed where its not. Thank you. Maybe its a over 80 years old movie.....:)...or?

[japangame]

well, im super happy that everyone is gettin along again on this forum. God bless everyone and there dogs Tosa or any alike.

[Sid Finster]

Just for Historycal purposes.....did the pakistany tell you how long are this matches? And that awesome scratch you wrote from.....was it a beginning scratch or somewhere deep in the match...say after 1 houer of a hard fight....i heard much good things from this kutas........however I think they have a good dash Bulldogblood.....:)
AFAIK, the Bully Kutta does in fact have some bulldog in it. From what I understand, the BK arose during colonial days, when British and Irish army and East India Company officers brought their bulldogs to India. Dog-fighting was already a popular activity amongst Indian people, so naturally matches were arranged between local dogs and the imports.

The local dogs did not fare so well, so the Indians started to breed their dogs with the imports. This is where the BK comes from.

Correct me if I am wrong.

[jasong]

Hey Rock,

I did alot of wrestling at the Jr league, HS and College level and I am telling you those big boys can move. The ones that compete for a All-American or National Championship spot are in great shape. They go just as long as the lighter guys. Hell on my College team we had 2 HWtt. that could out run and out condition more than half the team and we were a top 10 Division I program. So what you may have experienced in HS jsut isn't the same as the guys at the top level. Yes you have your guys that are fat and out of shape but those guys aren't the best. We were discussing top BK, Tossa's and other fighting dogs not the fat and lazy ones. that's like comparing game pits to show pits. The difference between a well conditioned APBT, tossa, Bk or any other fighting dog and the show version is the same as comparing these top HWT wrestlers to the fat lazy ones.

[14rock]

True...there are great bigger guys. An example I always like to use is Fedor Emilanenko the mixed martial artist. He has amazing stamina, and never looks winded. There are heavyweights that move the entire match..true. What I think you'll find in 99 percent of those cases is...that particular wrestler dedicates himself 100 percent to getting in that shape (be it stop smoking, strict food intake schedule, etc) I too have seen heavyweights in good shape, I'm not debating that. What I'm debating is that they would be in even better shape if they were smaller. At a certain size-only a certain level of stamina can be acheived. Granted, the level of stamina may be amazing, but it stands to reason that they will get winded easier than a 152 lber wrestling the same exact style-working the exact same in and out of the gym.

As for the topic-it is a totally diffrent style of wrestling. Its like comparing ju-jitsu to sumo wrestling. Of course ju-jitsu fighters dont respect sumo wrestling like a sumo wrestler does, and Sumo wrestlers wont respect ju-jitsu like a ju-jitsu trainer will. Its basic human design to believe what you do is best. All I'm saying is "In my eyes" a fighting dog is a dog that wants to fight-not a dog that fights on threat displays and cur snapping. Who is the real fighter in humans-the little guy who scraps every night at the bar, or the big loud mouth who runs his mouth because no one wants to step up and shut it for him?

ETA-Jason, your pm box is full. I sent you a message today that didnt go through. Can ya clear it out ;)

[jasong]

sure will man

[realonebulldog]

AFAIK, the Bully Kutta does in fact have some bulldog in it. From what I understand, the BK arose during colonial days, when British and Irish army and East India Company officers brought their bulldogs to India. Dog-fighting was already a popular activity amongst Indian people, so naturally matches were arranged between local dogs and the imports.

The local dogs did not fare so well, so the Indians started to breed their dogs with the imports. This is where the BK comes from.

Correct me if I am wrong. I tink the kutta comes from pakistan...they sayd so...and India is from my point of view the home of the R E A L roots of ouer breed. They came between the 10 and 11 centurie to england.....(look at her coats..and remember they love warm...) yes and later they were re imported (between 1700 and 1900) THIS dogs had her genetic task all the time...from the beginning of domestication ....that means15000 - 20000 years breed for one purpose ...the fight. Altough this breed is not anymore as clean as is should be...I think its the awesome history of this breed that separates them from all other fightdogs.

[Sid Finster]

I tink the kutta comes from pakistan...they sayd so...and India is from my point of view the home of the R E A L roots of ouer breed.
What is now called "Pakistan" was part of British India in those days.

I don't know whether the APBT's roots are from India. Could be.

[realonebulldog]

What is now called "Pakistan" was part of British India in those days.

I don't know whether the APBT's roots are from India. Could be. Shame..:) yes you right....they are close together...and both have nuklear weapons....good guy

[wisconsindog]

this is were ishould of came along time ago i love the apbt and imo no other breed is real match sure a few can get lucky and have a killing machine of any fighting breed but there is always somthing better and in that case the some thing better would be the apbt i have read and heard of other breeds besting are breed the tosa bully kutta pikta akita even a boston terier/apbt cross but the best that has been provin time and time again is see with your own eyes and then dipize

[realonebulldog]

this is were ishould of came along time ago i love the apbt and imo no other breed is real match sure a few can get lucky and have a killing machine of any fighting breed but there is always somthing better and in that case the some thing better would be the apbt i have read and heard of other breeds besting are breed the tosa bully kutta pikta akita even a boston terier/apbt cross but the best that has been provin time and time again is see with your own eyes and then dipize.............:) I agree..

[miakoda]

this is were ishould of came along time ago i love the apbt and imo no other breed is real match sure a few can get lucky and have a killing machine of any fighting breed but there is always somthing better and in that case the some thing better would be the apbt i have read and heard of other breeds besting are breed the tosa bully kutta pikta akita even a boston terier/apbt cross but the best that has been provin time and time again is see with your own eyes and then dipize
Funny you say that when in a completely other thread you are trying to prove otherwise (remember the "pitkita"?).

[wisconsindog]

I Was Never Sayin The Apbt Wasnt The Best And You Constantly Acuse Me Of Wrong Thing Yes I Like The Pikta And Yes I Know They Coyuld Maybe Best Are Breed But Not In The Long Wrong Plus These Pikita Are Probly More Of A Guatrd Dog And Also A Better Hunter But Better Fighter I Doubt It Like I Said See With Your Own Eyes Then Despise Quit Acussin Uless U Read All The Way Threw Not Little Parts U Chose To Bash Quit Being Such A Girl

[rocksteady]

dude, seriously.. slow down and do some grammer and spelling checks before you post. You are so hard to follow.. you will never get your point acrossed typing like that because no one can understand a word you have typed!

[japangame]

LOL, that is true wisconsin. Funny you say that when in a completely other thread you are trying to prove otherwise (remember the "pitkita"?).

[japangame]

Another thing, in no way, shape, or form can the f#ckin Pikacho ever best our breed. Get that out of your head. Our breed is perfect the way it is, and anytime you breed with something else to "Best our Breed", you only take away and destory our breed. By the way, our dog was not breed to be guard dogs for the simple fact that you actually have to have some type of human aggression for that, and that is not something we wanted in our breed. And now you are looking to breed some human aggression into the most hatted breed in the world to make people Love us some more. Arnt you just smart and looking after our breed. I said i wouldnt bash anymore, but this is rediculous that you have not listened to a single person in this forum. By crossing out of our breed you put us and all the APBTs at risk, and if you do that you are not a true APBT representitive.



I Was Never Sayin The Apbt Wasnt The Best And You Constantly Acuse Me Of Wrong Thing Yes I Like The Pikta And Yes I Know They Coyuld Maybe Best Are Breed But Not In The Long Wrong Plus These Pikita Are Probly More Of A Guatrd Dog And Also A Better Hunter But Better Fighter I Doubt It Like I Said See With Your Own Eyes Then Despise Quit Acussin Uless U Read All The Way Threw Not Little Parts U Chose To Bash Quit Being Such A Girl

[wisconsindog]

look i will say this a thousand times i dont brred out are bred and never will ok.but yeah i might get this pikita to have a kennel guard dog/hunter/house pet and i live were there was alreadty a plan to ban are breed and trust me it will never happen again plus i am responsiable owner and would not allow it so say what you will you will say it anyways but im for the apbt and like i said see with your own eyes and then dispise dont go buy what someone told i belive none of what i hear and half of what i see alot better this way and if yall were wise u would do the same.u guys ACT LIKE I NEVER OWNED A APBT ,WELL I HAVE FOR 15 YEARS NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AND I HAVE HAD MAN BITTERS TOO SO THERE YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS U MAKE YOURSELF

[realonebulldog]

look i will say this a thousand times i dont brred out are bred and never will ok.but yeah i might get this pikita to have a kennel guard dog/hunter/house pet and i live were there was alreadty a plan to ban are breed and trust me it will never happen again plus i am responsiable owner and would not allow it so say what you will you will say it anyways but im for the apbt and like i said see with your own eyes and then dispise dont go buy what someone told i belive none of what i hear and half of what i see alot better this way and if yall were wise u would do the same.u guys ACT LIKE I NEVER OWNED A APBT ,WELL I HAVE FOR 15 YEARS NEVER HAD A PROBLEM AND I HAVE HAD MAN BITTERS TOO SO THERE YOU ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS U MAKE YOURSELF.........................Cool down friends....its trouble for nothing...think we have enough R E A L enemys....shake hands!

[realonebulldog]

.........................Cool down friends....its trouble for nothing...think we have enough R E A L enemys....shake hands! But wait...i heard of this great Pinochio dog...lol :)

[ILUVMYDOGS]

All I can say is, I'm glad WisconsinDog and the others like 'em are in your breed and not mine. What a bunch of kooks!!!!!!!!!!!

This is exactly why we, the "bad" dog owners, get such a rap.

See ya' and Good Luck, you'll need it.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Hello there fellow dog lovers. I was reading through another forums topics when I came accross a few that fit well in this thread. This are statements from a Japanese dogman who has worked in his profession both the US and Japan and with both Tosa Ken and game-bred APBT and another poster:

Enjoy!
Touryukai