Out-Crossing vs Scatterbred: When does the first becomes the latter?

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Here is a pertinent dog question for you guys to ponder.....

I am sure many of you have seen dogs with multiple strains acclaimed as "vigor-driven" crosses. So I ask you, when do these out-crossed dogs become scatterbred dogs?

How many crosses does it take to become a scatterbred dog? or
Does it depend on the success of the "outcross" regardless of # of strains?

Should a serious breeder limit outcrossing his yard or part there of?

How would a "scatterbred" dog (bred from multiple reputable strains) be classified if successful in its sport and in producing success?

Should successful scatterbreds be bred regardless of their success rate? If you would breed, how would you breed it? (i.e. use IT a founding stock, breed it back to a strain in its ped, etc.)

Just a quick one for ya.

[WWII]

When an out-crossed pup is outcrossed again, and then their offspring are bred into a different line. Sounds like a good answer to me.

[14rock]

Its purely a case-by-case issue with determining when "out-crossing" = scatterbred. There are plenty of pedigrees that at first glance appear extremely scatterbred, but if you take the time to research it thoroughly,you quickly find it is not scatterbred at all.

If a scatterbred dog produced better than say a "linebred" dog then why wouldnt you breed him?

Fact of the matter is, because it doesnt sell pups! Most people now-days seem caught up in fancy pedigrees and thats about it. Its alot easier to show a unsuspecting victim a 4 generation pedigree with all dogs being bred off say Chinaman and say "look how much he's in there, your pup is going to be just as good as chinaman was!", then to show them a seemingly scatterbred 4 generation pedigree with no like ancestors and tell them they have the next chinaman on their hands! Sadly, alot of people are buying into this (theres a couple of families of dogs I think of immediately who are not competitive by along shot, but they still almost brainwash people into believing since there dog is "pure" it is the best there is!).

[Txbkennel]

GREAT POST. VERY TRUE!
Its purely a case-by-case issue with determining when "out-crossing" = scatterbred. There are plenty of pedigrees that at first glance appear extremely scatterbred, but if you take the time to research it thoroughly,you quickly find it is not scatterbred at all.

If a scatterbred dog produced better than say a "linebred" dog then why wouldnt you breed him?

Fact of the matter is, because it doesnt sell pups! Most people now-days seem caught up in fancy pedigrees and thats about it. Its alot easier to show a unsuspecting victim a 4 generation pedigree with all dogs being bred off say Chinaman and say "look how much he's in there, your pup is going to be just as good as chinaman was!", then to show them a seemingly scatterbred 4 generation pedigree with no like ancestors and tell them they have the next chinaman on their hands! Sadly, alot of people are buying into this (theres a couple of families of dogs I think of immediately who are not competitive by along shot, but they still almost brainwash people into believing since there dog is "pure" it is the best there is!).

[Mercepitdog]

If a scatterbred dog produced better than say a "linebred" dog then why wouldnt you breed him?


Very logical to me. Fews guys rant and moan about some poorly papered dogs. Wen those unknown ones proform better than those linebred ones!

[Rockstar]

Its purely a case-by-case issue with determining when "out-crossing" = scatterbred. There are plenty of pedigrees that at first glance appear extremely scatterbred, but if you take the time to research it thoroughly,you quickly find it is not scatterbred at all.

If a scatterbred dog produced better than say a "linebred" dog then why wouldnt you breed him?

Fact of the matter is, because it doesnt sell pups! Most people now-days seem caught up in fancy pedigrees and thats about it. Its alot easier to show a unsuspecting victim a 4 generation pedigree with all dogs being bred off say Chinaman and say "look how much he's in there, your pup is going to be just as good as chinaman was!", then to show them a seemingly scatterbred 4 generation pedigree with no like ancestors and tell them they have the next chinaman on their hands! Sadly, alot of people are buying into this (theres a couple of families of dogs I think of immediately who are not competitive by along shot, but they still almost brainwash people into believing since there dog is "pure" it is the best there is!).
Good post indeed.

[Will Power]

Papers don't make the dog. The dogs Makes the dog. So dont get caught up in Peds. Proven is Proven.

[Diesel]

As a rule for me if a dog has 4 or more established lines in its immediate pedigree its scatterbred. If you have a dog that is hemphill/ colby and you breed it either hemphill or colby dogs then you are line breeding, but if you instead breed it to a nevada/ mayday dog.. you are now scatterbreeding. your breeding follows no shared bloodline between the dogs and instead introduces new ones.

Now scatterbred isnt exactly a bad thing depending on what you are trying to do. If you are establishing your own line your dogs will probably be scatter bred for the first few generations. your migt take several bloodlines and combine them early on to get a mixture of the traits that you value for your line, and as you establish consistancy and put out more generations you will be starting your own line, to line breed to.

As far outcrossing its usually a much more calculated breeding. Say you have a thing for Mayday... he is your alltime favorite dog and you would love to have a dog just like him. By workingw with his offsrping and breeding heavy on hi blood you will have the best possible chance to create a dog with his traits. But when you breed to heavy on any dogs blood the chance for faults arises, the purpose of the outcross is to minimize that chance and in some cases to introduce some additional traits into the gene pool.
An outcross is usually a single breeding and the offspring then go back to the original line, so if you start with Mayday you outcross to hemphill, the offspring are bred back to Mayday blood. the hemphill would just be to break up the mayday blood.
Outcrossing becomes scatterbreedin when the outcrossed offspring are not line bred after being outcrossed.

Or so I have come to belive. JMO

[Rockstar]

I'll take a Redboy/Jocko/Tombstone/Bolio dog over just about any;)

[runt]

people kill me always talking about Line Bred this and that,well most lines was scattered at one time or another;I don't care what line you run go back and search the peds. I bet a colby or Dibo,Hemphill or Eli is there some where,papers don't really matters to the real gamedog people because 9 times out of 10 like produces like(GAME).For instance I have a friend that bought a black pit from a old head here in ALA. thats been around the game for about 40 plus the dog was purchased for $100 at the age of 4 months,well he raised the dog and at the age of 16months started to hunt with him, his weight about 40lb and turned out to be a Ace and as rough as any dog seen around here,never conditioned or never a weigh in never loss in a five year run. Now I know most people would never think of this not even myself now that I,ve learned better but almost every person with a bitch bred to this dog(remember they didn't know what line he was but he always produced gamedogs. My friend loves pits but he knows a lot now,he has dogs on his yard that he paid $1500 for but he said he has never had a better dog than BLACKBABY.I use to tell him all the time that I bet black came from some well known dog that couldn't be talked about because you know there were alot of well known dogs stollen a sent here to the south.

[Diesel]

Sounds like an afterschool special, LOL... he got lucky breeding a unregistered dog, most wouldnt do it. Its hard enough to make a breeding when you do know who a dog is out of.. less known when you are "flying blind" so to speak.
Personally, you couldnt give me a dog with no papers especially for a breeding program, maybe as a pet but thats about it.
To each his own of course, but ill stick with the pedigreed breedings. I like to be able to hav an idea of what to expect.

[Diesel]

THIS IS A GOOD POST....
Its purely a case-by-case issue with determining when "out-crossing" = scatterbred. There are plenty of pedigrees that at first glance appear extremely scatterbred, but if you take the time to research it thoroughly,you quickly find it is not scatterbred at all.

If a scatterbred dog produced better than say a "linebred" dog then why wouldnt you breed him?

Fact of the matter is, because it doesnt sell pups! Most people now-days seem caught up in fancy pedigrees and thats about it. Its alot easier to show a unsuspecting victim a 4 generation pedigree with all dogs being bred off say Chinaman and say "look how much he's in there, your pup is going to be just as good as chinaman was!", then to show them a seemingly scatterbred 4 generation pedigree with no like ancestors and tell them they have the next chinaman on their hands! Sadly, alot of people are buying into this (theres a couple of families of dogs I think of immediately who are not competitive by along shot, but they still almost brainwash people into believing since there dog is "pure" it is the best there is!).
I like that

[runt]

did you here what I said (every dog that was ever bred to this dog the litter was a least 50% good and he bred the dog alot(and I know that was part of the problem backyard breeders but like I said he know a lot more now).This dog wasn't a joke,some of his offsprings was in hunts for 2 and 3 hours as he was too;) I know first hand

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Performance breeding does work. Some better than others. I believe uncertainty is what makes 21st century Dogmen/Women prefer controlled breeding. How many think "Old School" Dogmen were into "line-breeding" per say? I believe they performance bred and some (breedings) happened to be of the same "strain".

did you here what I said (every dog that was ever bred to this dog the litter was a least 50% good and he bred the dog alot(and I know that was part of the problem backyard breeders but like I said he know a lot more now).This dog wasn't a joke,some of his offsprings was in hunts for 2 and 3 hours as he was too;) I know first hand

[Diesel]

did you here what I said (every dog that was ever bred to this dog the litter was a least 50% good what do you mean 50% good?
I guess I dont understand what you are saying....

[realonebulldog]

Papers don't make the dog. The dogs Makes the dog. So dont get caught up in Peds. Proven is Proven.Papers don,t make the dogs..the dogs make the papers ( from Earl Tudor )

[Rockstar]

"...he got lucky breeding a unregistered dog, most wouldnt do it."

Did you mean to say "unpedigreed" dog?
There is a huge difference between an unregistered dog and one with an unknown lineage. A pedigree is a pedigree, whether it's stamped by the ADBA or written with a Sharpie on J Lo's ass.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

I'll take a $1500 pup with its pedigree on J Lo's ass:D
A pedigree is a pedigree, whether it's stamped by the ADBA or written with a Sharpie on J Lo's ass.

[Scotsman]

I've seen a lot of best to best breedings, just breeding two good dogs together. The pups usually turn out pretty good, but down the road everything just seems to fizzle out.
In the long run consitency is going to prevail.