Old Family Red Nose

[PitDawg]

What are the pure gamebred lines that are considered OFRN, past and present? Wallace, Norrod, what else?

[TabDogs]

hemphill/wilder....

[SouthernDixie]

While on the subject of these dogs...

I tend to see pictures of these dogs and they seem to be larger in size. Not huge, but you know what I mean. Now, my 6 month old pup still looks like he is 2 months old. lol The only thing that looks mature on him is his legs. They are long - I call him daddy long legs. Anyways, I guess my question is - do they tend to mature later than some other lines?

[brat pack]

I have a male that is Hemphill/Wilder. I would also like to know what the typical size tof these dogs are. He is about 65 to 70 lbs. But average other that the weight. He is kind of tall, very wide chest, no white at all on him. Head is average, not too blocky. I don't care for the oversized heads. I want the dog to look normal but be able to know it is a pit. Not oversized. Is this a normal size for this breed? Or can it vary?

[El Mexicano]

it not a big deal for a dog to get that big 65 to 70 lbs but i wouldnt want a dog like that maybe if u condition the dog u can slim off a couple pounds

[Rocky H. Balboa]

It is my understanding that these dogs (OFRN) run a bit on the large side of the APBT scale.
I have a male that is Hemphill/Wilder. I would also like to know what the typical size tof these dogs are. He is about 65 to 70 lbs. But average other that the weight. He is kind of tall, very wide chest, no white at all on him. Head is average, not too blocky. I don't care for the oversized heads. I want the dog to look normal but be able to know it is a pit. Not oversized. Is this a normal size for this breed? Or can it vary?

[El Mexicano]

It is my understanding that these dogs (OFRN) run a bit on the large side of the APBT scale.

i think it would be all on who u get the dog from.many people starting to breed those dogs to be larger but to be still be agile for hunting boar and many people are also still breeding for standard and game.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

Well, your answer is correct but not the only one! What you did not think of is that some lines run "big" and others "small". For example, the Mayday lines run on the "big" side. I am not stating 80lbs, rather, 50-60 chain weight on the average.

If you have access to it, read the story of Ch Centipede. He was one of the founding OFRN dogs and considered (from what I have read) best of his time! If you do not have the story, PM me and I will give it to you!
It is my understanding that these dogs (OFRN) run a bit on the large side of the APBT scale.

i think it would be all on who u get the dog from.many people starting to breed those dogs to be larger but to be still be agile for hunting boar and many people are also still breeding for standard and game.

[thablacksheep]

Well, your answer is correct but not the only one! What you did not think of is that some lines run "big" and others "small". For example, the Mayday lines run on the "big" side. I am not stating 80lbs, rather, 50-60 chain weight on the average.

If you have access to it, read the story of Ch Centipede. He was one of the founding OFRN dogs and considered (from what I have read) best of his time! If you do not have the story, PM me and I will give it to you!For what it's worth, I heard that Ch Centipede produced below average bulldogs. Now I don't believe everything I hear, just thought that I'd point that out just in case some other members had more valuable information on this particular dog.

[PitDawg]

Yes, the OFRN dogs are bigger than some lines, but not all lines. Even Norrod's dogs run high 40's to 60's. I have also noticed they have longer legs (some lines? and more average sized heads, and a little more pointy of a nose. In some of the OFRN dogs, their head almost reminds me of a Doberman for some reason. The ones I'm talking about are in most of Stratton's books, including Maude.
So far we have:
Wilder
Norrod
Hemphill
Wallace (for the most part, since there are black nosed dogs or brindles from that line as well)

What about these lines, are they mostly newer, show type dogs, or are some true-type OFRN too? What lines are the closest to the old "All Around Ace" OFRN type out of all that have been named??
Amber-Lite
Apache/Wise
Sarona

[Mudville_Monsta]

i think but not sure that amber lite started off with game line ofrn. but as of now the dogs that are amber lite are show or weight pull dogs.

[Rocky H. Balboa]

If I remember my research (some time ago), the sorona lines have become show lines. I am not sure how true this is in Hawaii. The Hawaiian laws regarding Pit fighting there may be compared to the laws in Iowa(?).

i think but not sure that amber lite started off with game line ofrn. but as of now the dogs that are amber lite are show or weight pull dogs.
It is a shame we do not have any Hawaiian members in this site.:( Marty and Shon, I know you like to attract new members, here is something worthwhile, get us some (Game) Philipinos (besides the millmaker!) and Hawaiian members! I think we have enough Pet Bull owner members. Balance is the key.

Sorry, off topic but needed to be said.

[Iron Mike]

Yes, the OFRN dogs are bigger than some lines, but not all lines. Even Norrod dogs run high 40's to 60's. I have also noticed they have longer legs (some lines? and more average sized heads, and a little more pointy of a nose. In some of the OFRN dogs, their head almost reminds me of a Doberman for some reason. The ones I'm talking about are in most of Stratton's books, including Maude.
So far we have:
Wilder
Norrod
Hemphill
Wallace (for the most part, since there are black nosed dogs or brindles from that line as well)

What about these lines, are they mostly newer, show type dogs, or are some true-type OFRN too? What lines are the closest to the old "All Around Ace" OFRN type out of all that have been named??
Amber-Lite
Apache/Wise
Sarona
Now ya know I couldn't let this slide.
First off "Ch Centipede" wasn't a champion.
Second the main dog in foundation of OFRN and considered the heaviest of the imported OFR strain was Bruce's Jerry.
When you say mine run 40 to 60 pounds don't forget that is chain weight not PITWEIGHT. The heaviest dog I have my yard conditions at 56 and that is Bobcat 2. Almost all but a couple of my females condition in the 30's.
Another thing, don't get caught up in the BS that when people say OFRN it only means Hemphill dogs. Hemphill didn't have the corner on OFRN strain. There are many bloodlines other then Hemphill which also carried OFRN.

BTW none of Wilder's pure Hemphill dogs run in the 60 pounds. Maud's chain weight was in the 40's. It wasn't until the straight dogs were scattered bred did the dogs' weight go up.

OFRN had pointy noses? BS! Muhammad Ali didn't! Neither did William's Red Jack, Corvino's Shorty and Gimp off Bruce's Jerry. Maybe Hemphill bloodline at the end did. Maud was not pointy nose. Neither was Geronimo.

Just off the top of my head the bloodlines I know carried OFRN:
Corvino -BTW this is why Stratton said Dibo was heavy in OFRN.
Feeley, Hemphill, Wallace, Williams, DeCordovas, Lightner, I.D. Cole, Trice, Mason, Clouse, Skaggs, McCoy, Neblett (now I know this will get a raise from some but remember why he named his dogs like Neblett's Ch. Bucky McCoy is because Neblett dogs were half Colby and half Dan McCoy's Lightner's bloodline. This also true with Hetrick dogs. Many of Blair's TNT dogs carried Lightner.) I know there are others but I just can't recall right now.

BTW The Old Family Red Nose Registry I understand after two years will be opened to the general public and dogs over 70 pounds will not be excepted and dogs with more then 25% of their body or whiteheads won't be excepted.

[planecrazy]

Now ya know I couldn't let this slide.
First off "Ch Centipede" wasn't a champion.
Second the main dog in foundation of OFRN and considered the heaviest of the imported OFR strain was Bruce's Jerry.
When you say mine run 40 to 60 pounds don't forget that is chain weight not PITWEIGHT. The heaviest dog I have my yard conditions at 56 and that is Bobcat 2. Almost all but a couple of my females condition in the 30's.
Another thing, don't get caught up in the BS that when people say OFRN it only means Hemphill dogs. Hemphill didn't have the corner on OFRN strain. There are many bloodlines other then Hemphill which also carried OFRN.

BTW none of Wilder's pure Hemphill dogs run in the 60 pounds. Maud's chain weight was in the 40's. It wasn't until the straight dogs were scattered bred did the dogs' weight go up.

OFRN had pointy noses? BS! Muhammad Ali didn't! Neither did William's Red Jack, Corvino's Shorty and Gimp off Bruce's Jerry. Maybe Hemphill bloodline at the end did. Maud was not pointy nose. Neither was Geronimo.

Just off the top of my head the bloodlines I know carried OFRN:
Corvino -BTW this is why Stratton said Dibo was heavy in OFRN.
Feeley, Hemphill, Wallace, Williams, DeCordovas, Lightner, I.D. Cole, Trice, Mason, Clouse, Skaggs, McCoy, Neblett (now I know this will get a raise from some but remember why he named his dogs like Neblett's Ch. Bucky McCoy is because Neblett dogs were half Colby and half Dan McCoy's Lightner's bloodline. This also true with Hetrick dogs. Many of Blair's TNT dogs carried Lightner.) I know there are others but I just can't recall right now.

BTW The Old Family Red Nose Registry I understand after two years will be opened to the general public and dogs over 70 pounds will not be excepted and dogs with more then 25% of their body or whiteheads won't be excepted.
ITA. This is the kind of knowledge we need. Thanks for the education Iron Mike. U-Da-Man! :D

[SouthernDixie]

ITA. This is the kind of knowledge we need. Thanks for the education Iron Mike. U-Da-Man! :D
X2 !!!

I really enjoy this type of information, if only I could find a way to remember!!! I'm kind of bad at that.

[PitDawg]

Cool, yes, thank you for "not letting it slip". I didn't mean "all" OFRN dogs had pointy noses, but a lot of the pics in the Stratton books (mostly of old time OFRN dogs) had Doberman-like heads. Not as pointy as the Dobe, but it reminds me of them. Ont he cover, Maude LOOKS to have a pointy nose, but it's probably just the picture, or the angle. I know even a couple pics of my dogs look to have pointy noses.

Iron Mike, what's your smallest male? I really wanted to find a true to the old type, and pure OFRN pup, but I noticed a lot were on the biger side. Sure, not big like the blues, etc, but bigger than my taste. My two are 45lbs-chain, and that's on the verge of being too big. If I got an OFRN, I would want it to be 35 lbs max. Is that possible?

So, there is a specifically OFRN registry? That's really cool. Are they registering only true type OFRN, or anything with a certain percentage of OFRN lines, whether they are show or game bred??

[SouthernDixie]

Pointy like this?
:)

[PitDawg]

Yea! Maybe they are just LONGER noses, and not neccesarily "pointy", cause that looks longer, but not "pointy" like a Dobe. Maybe the Dobe reminder comes from a lot of those same "longer nosed" OFRN dogs having cropped ears. ???

[rocksteady]

Longer noses??? This dog is predominetly OFRN and doesnt have a "long nose"
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c194/rocksteadyapbts/sagagood.jpg

[Iverson's Pits]

Answer = YES. The dogs decending from Hemphill/Wallace blood mature VERY late compared to most. This is my experience anyways...and others share the same experience as me.



While on the subject of these dogs...

I tend to see pictures of these dogs and they seem to be larger in size. Not huge, but you know what I mean. Now, my 6 month old pup still looks like he is 2 months old. lol The only thing that looks mature on him is his legs. They are long - I call him daddy long legs. Anyways, I guess my question is - do they tend to mature later than some other lines?

[SouthernDixie]

Answer = YES. The dogs decending from Hemphill/Wallace blood mature VERY late compared to most. This is my experience anyways...and others share the same experience as me.
Thank you! I find him to be a quite awkward little thing right now. His legs are so long but his body is so small. Would you suggest that since they develop later than the norm, we should wait for more development before starting weight pulling, or would that really be a factor in growth?

[PitDawg]

Okay, I don't want to scan all these pics, but if you have a library of APBT books, you probably have these books. Here are the dogs I', talking about that have a certain look about their heads. Maybe it's not exactly a pointy nose, but maybe some other structural quality that may make it SEEM like they have a pointy nose. Then again, maybe it's the angle, but it's always the OFRN dogs that look like this. I will also try to find some of the many MODERN OFRN breeder's sites that show this quality too.
First picture, out of the the medium sized turquoise book by Stratton, "The Truth about the APBT"
Page 151, Schiller's Queenie
Out of the smaller book with Maude on the cover, "The Book of the APBT",
Page 212- Sarona Trouble
Page 126- Apache Rusty Joke
Page 75- Wilder's Red Duster
Page 51- Crum's Cremator (this was an OFRN dog right?)
Out of the large book by Stratton, "The World of the APBT"
Page 230- Jean's Red Boomer
Page 218- Hemphill's Geronimo
Page 219- William's Nubby
Page 53- Another pic of Boomer (same as on 230)

Now, I will repeat this: I'm not saying ALL OFRN dogs are like this. Muhammad Ali and many others have a quite round and compact head.

S

[PitDawg]

Dozer, is the site you got that pic from yours? I just was looking at that site. I seems like they have nice dogs, I like that Widow's Peak on some of the dogs.


Pointy like this?
:)

[SouthernDixie]

No that came from the Old Family Reds site. I think that was Big Red.

[Iron Mike]

People are entitled to their opinions and they will very but the standard for the APBT is the distance from the end of the nose to the eyes should equal the distance from the eyes to the back of the head. The ears should be closer set together then the width at the jaw. The jaw should be wider then the distance between the ears. There is no standard for the width or girth of the muzzle. The side of the head should have width or thickness for a elongated muscle for biting power.

Now it sounds to me someone likes more of the shorty muzzle bulldog type. This is no good for biting. Because most all of the OFRN I've been around meets the above standard which I am both AADR and ADBA judge. As I stated before and since I saw those dogs in person, I didn't feel years ago Jacob's dogs were pointy nose but I did see more of the Sykes, Woods and dogs crossed with Mary's dogs more of a points nose but you know what, if a dog can put the ivories together, that is all that counts!
A dog bites hard because it wants to and since the breed wasn't AST show dogs, pretty is as pretty does.

I believe the problem, because of the dogs named, people are STILL caught up on the BS OFRN only means Hemphill. This seems to always be the dogs in reference. But to say OFRN, the strain as a whole has pointy nose is total BS.
QUIT TRIPPING ON THE HANG UP OFRN ONLY MEANS HEMPHILL!!

Knockout (aka KOKO or Cocoa) was what Bob would call silver red, was she pointy nose? The female on the dog house next to Dan on page 169? in the World of the APBT. Not in my opinion, oh ya she became a 5xw.

Here is a picture of a grandson of Hemphill's Geronimo, his name is Ch. Iron Spike R.O.M. would you say he has a pointy nose? This picture also appear in the Truth of the APBT by Stratton but all it says is, the dog carries the badge of OFRN which is getting very rare.
http://www.ironlinekennels.com/Page_4/IMAG0014.JPG

[PitDawg]

No, that dog has a pretty normal face, so does KOKO. Did you see what I meant about a pointy nose in those other pics? I'm not saying all OFRN has pointy noses, but certain ones all have that certain look to their head. (the ones I listed)
I love the Ironline dogs, they are awesome, and none of them have that "pointy" nose if you want to call it that. I LOVE Muhammad Ali, and many others from the line.
From what I've read about the OFRN dogs, back in the day they were the total package, but a lot of people disliked their color. Is that why they were kind of lost in the mix? Or was it because show and fad people LIKED the color and started diluting them by crossing show or big stuff to make them into something else? I know there are some OFRN breeders out there that still have those all around ace dogs, but how rare are they now?