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View Full Version : People are talking about pure gene pools, let me show you a real pure dog



Limey kennels
04-22-2011, 05:56 AM
withs is Representetif of his famely bred douwn from Tudors (Maifield) Nigger , plumbers ch alligator
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9211/niggera.jpg (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/niggera.jpg/)
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Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9492/chsmugler.jpg (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/chsmugler.jpg/)
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End product Today http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=191970
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6099/smugs.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/smugs.jpg/)
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jacko
04-22-2011, 07:00 AM
could you keep that line going indeffinatetly ? i know you need out-crosses and so-on but surely it it would a hell of a lot dogs in the programme ?

mccoypitbulls
04-22-2011, 07:20 AM
Those are some nice pics limey....thanks for sharing.

Limey kennels
04-22-2011, 08:56 AM
INdefenatly YES , BUT as you see in the pedegree of this dog, there came a time where a outcross was needed, we used 4 diferend lines one of them witch i rate the beter one pound for pound was the candy cross, having said that she was purebred trowback to the origenal alligator blood tru Susan renee..
in that aspect its a cross in the same famely, that hase been bred apart for 20+ years

. same thing with the daddy of the solomon luther dog . that side of our famely hase been seperat bred for the same lenght of time. and diferend selection proses was used. these dogs when known for there long shows where gameness was shown on a regular basis. The Crippen x Sioux line of this famely hase been our basis. very solid game dogs with lots of smarts and strenght and gamenes to boot. the midnight cross was used because we belive that blood is from mayfield Pit General desendense.
these dogs whe known as dogs that started as if there was no tomorrow!.. full trottle al the way.There % was lower in pure form..

the most dificeld proses is to PURIFY these croses again and getting the right type of dogs back, it sounds ez but it aint.
il put some pictures of these cross type dogs on ande there type. tomorrow ore the day afther.
as it iz Smugs is a very tight selected bred dog, and it ""shows"". a dog like this should again be bred to a 50/50 cross ore to a total out cross. he is the type of gene pool you can base a intyer bloodline on.. Inbreeding on him would not be recomended. due to the los of hybrid viger...

Limey kennels
04-22-2011, 08:57 AM
Those are some nice pics limey....thanks for sharing. Your welkom mccoypitbulls

MCS
04-22-2011, 10:08 AM
Great info and pics - very interesting thread. thank you.

bgblok68
04-22-2011, 12:15 PM
Thanks for posting the pics and sharing the info. Dogs like that takes alot of years and dedication. Keep up the goodwork.

rebal yell
04-22-2011, 01:26 PM
all that i can say is wow damn fine hounds thanxs for the pics

rebal yell
04-22-2011, 01:29 PM
love the 4,5,6th pics is 5th and 6th same hound

sunbeam
04-22-2011, 01:39 PM
nope... 5th is ch smuggler and 6th i think is crippen (full brothers from different matings)


4th one is their sire nelis ROM

jacko
04-23-2011, 03:32 AM
thanks for the info limey its very interesting.!

Limey kennels
04-23-2011, 03:49 AM
Ok some of the colord dogs note the redish dogs are considerd as Fox dogs(Tug Rom) and are acsepted as intergrated full famely dogs !!. back then our famely was kept at a 3/4 black and 1/4 red line of dogs other trowback types and colors where sifted out. altho they where of very high quality., The eurly brindels in the first spike litters when bred to the heavy inbred alligator nigger bitches vanished when the line got purer. and turnd completly black, note the black vs brindle rate was 75/25 with your od one ore two heinzle bucksking trowbacks. when we started to cros we kept the color typs features of the Nigger alligator dogs in mind.

but when we bred into the Inbred Midnight blood we got some old fasion Brinde(bitches) back, now i do know that the midnicht blood tru ""some"" brindels, but mainly black stuff.

i cant find the picture of Burtons Tiger dan on my pc, but if you compear his picture with the first brindle bitch you see they look a like a bit. look at some more of the tighter bred GRCH Midnight type dogs and you reconize Pit General features, you see a remarkeble rezemblens in them dogs.

aqlso i do have a audio tape when maurice carver and don matfield talk over the phone just afther Pit General was stolen, where they KNOW Indian Sunny had the Pit general dog!!!.
to make a long story short. Sunny whent out of the dogs for 3 years and came back with BLACK dogs that would have this devestating ofensife stijl and where short muzeld fine boned and had thin tails.
last we can state that 85/95% of these dogs forming the ped of smugs have been proven.
we have good insight consirning CH Candys ped tru Gary Hingkle and from the Midnight dogs tru Detleff who was known as a no compromize dogman.
I have placed this as im getting sick and tyerd of this BS talk about pure bred Mayfield nigger dogs who first dont rezemble the dog they are bred on AT AL and have no proven record watsoever ,only a couple of made up shows that nobody in the real world of SD can verify!!. if you looking for the most PROVEN famely bred douwn from that dog and the alligator dog. then this stuf is it. this thuse not meen there are others out there . plenty of pure bred vito famelys that stil have the LOOK , just not the record.

BS stories about ch spike being bred out of direct mayfield dogs was made up to elivated the lack of in the mayfield dogs as manny other dogs where push forward bij mayfield and folowers . CK spoike was a CROSS dog with a PUREBRED trowback. the bitches he was bred to where of purer breedings on the Nigger / alligator dog .
As mutch as we have wanted for them cliams to be tru it AINT.
resend crosses where made again as purefing some bloodlines out of this famely as wel.
Smugs is a great aczample of that.
Tougdt some of you might find this intresting mabey someone can chim in and place some pictures Midnight dogs in hard conditioning that rezamble the general dog in SOME feautures
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/2019/hammondsrufus.jpg (http://img850.imageshack.us/i/hammondsrufus.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4461/tugrom.jpg (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/tugrom.jpg/)
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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=126077 lost her picture and her son solomon luther both reds as where Ruslers ch bluddhttp://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2453/dsc03731q.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/dsc03731q.jpg/)
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sunbeam
04-23-2011, 04:07 AM
who are the bottom 2, i don't recognise them, look very much like rufus blood.

Limey kennels
04-23-2011, 04:36 AM
First bitch is the mother of our King Pin dog here is her ped http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328279 second picture is her daughter and sister of king pin http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328280 Mother of Smugs , altho you ""could"" asume the brindle color sceme came tru the rufus blood ., But the asumed tiger dan brindle in combination of the carver brindle in these dogs is probely the rezen it popt up, also there whas a higher nrs of brindel dogs in the midnight blood then in ours .yet there black rate was like 75% as wel

Elmo
04-23-2011, 06:31 AM
Verry nice to see al your dogs limey..
Verry interesting read aswel.

Cheers

letsmakestuffup
04-23-2011, 07:38 AM
IMHO If we talk about this line then a great deal of credit should go to the Rustler. He took these dogs and bred them his own way, most was red and a very high % of gameness. It was no accident that both the male and female that had put in the longest times over here was both bred by Rustler .

Bareera 4:30+
Cherry 3:34

Cuprija Boy
04-23-2011, 09:17 AM
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=317230

Inbred family,bat red nose,chokolade...

preme
04-23-2011, 12:56 PM
very nice limey .............

vagabond
04-23-2011, 01:31 PM
Very interesting read. Thanks for info and pics Limey. Your dogs have a very characteristic appearance.

jacko
04-23-2011, 01:57 PM
i like the bl;ack-brindle bitch .second from bottom

united
04-23-2011, 03:42 PM
So what do you call a dog with untested parent's well bred or just a young'un with a pretty ped?

As we like'm
04-23-2011, 04:15 PM
Thanks Limey for giving an insight view of this great line of dogs...
Loveīm or hateīm, but there is no deny in the huge impact they had in the sport here in Europe!

jacko
04-23-2011, 04:29 PM
Would it be "cos"half the dogs arewesh

Sea Serpent
04-23-2011, 06:44 PM
Thanks for sharing them pics Limey, Here's a pic of Pit General's Sire Burton's Tiger Dan.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll92/beenerboy/History/400Small.jpg

garth
04-23-2011, 09:21 PM
Them are some well bred dogs Limey.I have seen some very old pic of some Henry dogs and they fit the build.They say that Nigger was down from the Henry dogs,how true I don't know,but they look and act like them.

mccoypitbulls
04-23-2011, 09:54 PM
aGreed - had a hard on since I saw the first pics.. Another person in dogs that has put in time, dedication, and must have some of that blood in him like i do.. Always a pleasure Limey.

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 01:56 AM
IMHO If we talk about this line then a great deal of credit should go to the Rustler. He took these dogs and bred them his own way, most was red and a very high % of gameness. It was no accident that both the male and female that had put in the longest times over here was both bred by Rustler .

Bareera 4:30+
Cherry 3:34
Like i said that part was seperate bred . Them OD bod (rusler dogs) lost a great deal of there abilety and needed to rely on gamenes a lot.
you see the red fox(Tug Rom) type of dogs took out some mouth and abilety but gave a more alround dog back back inbreeding and selecting on them type of dohs made them to have to rely on gamenes more and more , hensh we always kept a 75% black 25% red famely..
Lionheart Dolly i knew very wel from a eurly age and due to my fault he lost her to other hands.(diferend story). solomion luther was in our camp as wel unfortunatly one of our players back then messed up and thats how they fell in Ruslers hands who did a outstanding job caimpaining them.
at that time rusler tried viguresly to get blood of of us , but he had a reputation for not sharing and making bad deals. nevertheless he was rutchless dogman into the exstreem and should get lots of credid for sure.

i did send over a couple of dogs to lionhart kennels witch hase been our close frind for more then 25 yeaqrs. He bred the solomon luther dog out of HIS bitch dolly to a bitch out of magic x candy. this produced 2 males altho my bitch and send over to be bred bij luther on my acound it only produced 2 male pups, and i was left in the dark!!!! so actualy i was the breeder with Lionheart kennels of these two pups.. as it is One of them was campaighed bij DR-Death and Rusler . claiming he was the best dog they seen in 20 years . i dont know about that but it prooves the dog was good one. iven tho be beat a 3 legger witch i would have never done. and puit a spot on that reputation .
Rusler till his unfortunate death hase tried manny times to get more of our black base stock who simply where harder and beter dogs.

but we never got to a agreemend. what his dogs did show was gameness that was unreal in the likes of ch Bludd and grape here is a picture of one of those 4,30 bitches this one lost game supurb shape http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6841/melo.jpg (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/melo.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 02:06 AM
Thanks for sharing them pics Limey, Here's a pic of Pit General's Sire Burton's Tiger Dan.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll92/beenerboy/History/400Small.jpg thanks for the comps guys aprisiate it!!.

Sea serpend i belive thats a old bullyson picture, ore from wichels(hall and long) ch stomper. i do have a picture of Burtond Tiger dan sonewhere and he is a brindle with a bit of wite and build diferend. then again this could be a bad picture and a old dog at the time it was taken
. as for our blood we do and did try to do our very best. and sure no famely is the best nor do we claim it to be, nor is every famely clean of flaws , but we did try to get it right and do it as close as we could to have this famely around uptill today. we DO claim this famely is the most proven alligator nigger ""based"" famely in the world. The dog smugs is just a one dog aczample of some of the dogs we stilll have....

fonzie
04-24-2011, 02:13 AM
talkn bout color pits could throw any colornot just the color of the parents they could throw an oddcolor beuz of there ansetry.

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 02:34 AM
absolutly!!!!!!.
hensh selecting on type and color makes you able to ""reduce the Genetic variation"" . then you can speek of real trowbacks ore a pure line"" based"" on a couple of individuals your selecting on.
how manny times have we seen a pure Nigger dog arize from pure mafield bloodline???. other then red nosed licht colord lighdner trownbacks and chokolate dogs at best ore white colord Boomerang dogs!!!!! ecetera. now ofcours them dogs could fisicely be representitif( not the mayfield blood), but in our case we tried to get as close as posible not only in great performance but in every posible way.

sunbeam
04-24-2011, 03:28 AM
http://i51.tinypic.com/s5wxg3.jpg

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 05:23 AM
Thanks for that picture! Of CH Bludd!. i lost my pictures . you go more of him??,
i must apologize for my bad spelling in my previus post about Ruslers blood i just woke up and as you guys know spelling isend my best thing.

sunbeam
04-24-2011, 05:47 AM
i have many pics of rustlers dogs, will post when i get round to scanning them.

vagabond
04-24-2011, 06:16 AM
This female was in my country. Out of Limey's Magic and Det's Jenny, belly sister to Limey's Star. She had that characteristic look...

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3661/smyra1.jpg (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/smyra1.jpg/)

j1985
04-24-2011, 06:19 AM
Really good reading Limey, thanks.

vagabond
04-24-2011, 06:24 AM
And this is the son of female I posted above (his father is grandson of Limey's Terror and Limey's Pup). Very typical dog, again...

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9128/smozart3.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/smozart3.jpg/)

vagabond
04-24-2011, 06:58 AM
The bellybrother to a male I posted above. Out of Lil Rufus (grandson of Terror & Pup) and Myra (Magic x Detlef's Jenny). One of those chocolate dogs...

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/1706/szeblilrufusxmyra.jpg (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/szeblilrufusxmyra.jpg/)

Sea Serpent
04-24-2011, 06:58 AM
thanks for the comps guys aprisiate it!!.

Sea serpend i belive thats a old bullyson picture, ore from wichels(hall and long) ch stomper. i do have a picture of Burtond Tiger dan sonewhere and he is a brindle with a bit of wite and build diferend. then again this could be a bad picture and a old dog at the time it was taken
. as for our blood we do and did try to do our very best. and sure no famely is the best nor do we claim it to be, nor is every famely clean of flaws , but we did try to get it right and do it as close as we could to have this famely around uptill today. we DO claim this famely is the most proven alligator nigger ""based"" famely in the world. The dog smugs is just a one dog aczample of some of the dogs we stilll have....

Limey I think it's just a bad picture of Tiger Dan, but I am sure that's him, just a really bad pic, here is a video of Don Mayfield talking about Tiger Dan at :36 secs- 2:10, yes Tiger Dan was a brindle dog.

click to watch ----> http://video.mail.ru/mail/free_jump/pitmenlegend/767.html

preme
04-24-2011, 07:02 AM
So what do you call a dog with untested parent's well bred or just a young'un with a pretty ped?
a young prospect

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 07:08 AM
This female was in my country. Out of Limey's Magic and Det's Jenny, belly sister to Limey's Star. She had that characteristic look...

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3661/smyra1.jpg (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/smyra1.jpg/)
Yes this bitch was stolen from me not bij the owner who had her on the chain. her son who you posted looks very tipucel Bad Bully with a toutch of magic in there very impresif animal.... The chokolate color is ""very"" rare in this particulair famely altho some times they pop up. the Sunny Boy,s chocko dog was one of the most memerable ones!!!.

Sunbeam tanks would like to have and ore see some more. as stated i used to have some tru lionheart but kinda lost them over time..

As we like'm
04-24-2011, 08:25 AM
Burton's Tiger Dan

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i433/NUMBER668/012-3.jpg

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i433/NUMBER668/011-3.jpg

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 09:16 AM
"" as we like them"""
Thank you i knew that other picture was bullyson ore ch stomper. let me show type trowback let me start of with Star and Tiger Dan


http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9933/tigerdan.jpg (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/tigerdan.jpg/)
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/1772/dsc03731dv.jpg (http://img862.imageshack.us/i/dsc03731dv.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 09:36 AM
here are Susan renee and CH Candy altho i do have mutch beter pictures in my argives to prove my point candy is a spitting image, of susan renee, i iven whent as far as digging in there historick behavier, and found out that candy had the same problem where she got more agresife when she got older. same thing happend with susan renee she had to be retired as she became overly agresif, chek her pedegree and see she is more bred on susan renee then alligator . hensh her trowback and her fantastic producing quality, her mouth like renee was unreal to picture of candy is when she was in shape obviusly susan renee was out and older in age..
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/9055/terryfloryandsusanrenee.jpg (http://img864.imageshack.us/i/terryfloryandsusanrenee.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4246/limeycandy.jpg (http://img860.imageshack.us/i/limeycandy.jpg/)
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Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 09:49 AM
here you go grch midnight and Mayfields pit general
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/829/6736copy.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/6736copy.jpg/)
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http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/7384/aligator5xw.gif (http://img546.imageshack.us/i/aligator5xw.gif/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Limey kennels
04-24-2011, 09:55 AM
breeding pure bred dogs is only as good as your abilety to be able to reconize and select the type of dogs that come out of your liiters of game bred dogs. and in what place you can put them in, meening a 25% alligator bred dog can in reality be a 75% trowback. pedegree in that case is just a paper gide line. hensh the rezen that Type and color and stijl should be taken in consideration when your breeding for a sirtin foundation in your famely of dogs

j1985
04-24-2011, 03:58 PM
Probably my fav thread on here for a while, always like reading your stuff Limey and seeing your dogs.

Limey kennels
04-25-2011, 01:57 AM
Thanks 1985
.problem is that 90% of the dogman of today who call themselfs breeders are just plain novice and havend taken there time in studying the breed and its history.,

They look at a pedegree see 150 Mayfields Nigger ore Bolio ore jeep and think there dog is a purebred dog. Nothing could be feurther from the truth, people tent to forget that the more you stack those names the more you are inbreeding on dogs"" prior"" to these dogs ore ( and in some cases breed into trowbacks on the side lines)...

in other words you shoot ""past your goal!!!"" and acsept the other genes to pop forward(Mayfield line).

and ore get the gene pool withs is good but not what you wanted.
let me show you another aczample.
here is Limey Kennels king Gator http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=17481
here is limey kennels and siruis kennels Red Bull http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=326352
chek there peds both there mothers are litter sisters but one of them is a CH Spike animal the other one is a Tug(fox) Animal.
with the ecseption of two sisters as parends they have the same pedegree, YET they are light years apart.

king gator obviusly is the aligator nigger type of trowback. Red Bull is a petronellies fox/boomerang type of dog tru Tug Rom.
Both king gator and red Bull are very inbred dogs yet of diferend types and stijl!!.
and should be bred in a diferend way.
The fact that Red Bull hase a LOAD of Nelis rom and CH Spike in his pedegree thussend mean he is blessed with there gene pool. this needs to change your breeding program with sutch a animal .
the Nelis ROm CH Spike genes are in there for sure but to get them to the sirfes asks for a diferend aprotchs in selecting the right bitch!!!. and thats how it works..
Now im useing my own stu as aczamplef because thats familier , but it works the same with every famely and ore foundation dogs you breed on.
Please feel free to chim in with other bloodlines showing the same aczample. lets turn this topic into a seriues breeding famely topic. without the BS.

Elmo
04-25-2011, 07:26 AM
Just read an article in an Game dog Mag. back frm 1985 it was writin by Don Mayfield,
Always had tought of this to be an overlooked isue by some.
Great insight here Limey.

Thaks

Elmo
04-25-2011, 07:33 AM
"" as we like them"""
Thank you i knew that other picture was bullyson ore ch stomper. let me show type trowback let me start of with Star and Tiger Dan


http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/9933/tigerdan.jpg (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/tigerdan.jpg/)
http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/1772/dsc03731dv.jpg (http://img862.imageshack.us/i/dsc03731dv.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) Just Whoa.
Picture explains itself.

vagabond
04-25-2011, 09:10 AM
This is an excellent article that I found regarding this subject.

Using Color Type Selection...
By James Bond

Many times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs,
especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at
a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the
breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd B. and Jerry C. Over
the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have
lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your
blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs
come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the
alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this
technique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them
to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the
other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary H. and he
showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and
white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I
found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son
(Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realized that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on
a paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could,
because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from
white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great
diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind
this shows a lack of understanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you
are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot,
which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been
breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of
space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality.
We have all had are mother or auntie say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your
grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers
gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of
his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree
and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on
paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator
type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But
the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say
his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why don't you use him?. My
answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a
genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his
colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock
and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud
stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs
that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

From this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find
your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less
dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6
times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his
pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognizing type and colour is a very unrecognized tool for
breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or
should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you
know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is
75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art
is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this
bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch
Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli
Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his
style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and
produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All
the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who
produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a
very quick way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I
believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes
she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete
throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess.
Your questions and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than
using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog.

Limey kennels
04-25-2011, 10:08 AM
eeeeuhhmmm Thats my articel!!!

who
04-25-2011, 10:17 AM
I agree to certain points. Color is a good tell tale sign of gene pool. Throw backs are a great thing to me. The idea that you get them let's a guy know he' got straight forward blood. Limey is right in saying that you can't just pedigree stack. I know the lessons to that all too well. I would have a litter and THE WHOLE LITTER LOOKS IDENTICAL but then their attitudes couldn't be more different within a litter.

vagabond
04-25-2011, 10:19 AM
eeeeuhhmmm Thats my articel!!!

I was pretty sure that was yours article. But it said "by James Bond" so I was a little confused with that. In any case, excellent read!!! Thanks Limey!!!

who
04-25-2011, 10:25 AM
And at the same time your blood needs to advance. If a breeder keeps getting THROWBACKS to dogs from FIFTY years ago then your not getting any better caliber dogs. Just your percentages go up I guess. You shouldn't want any triats from dogs fifty years ago besides gameness and winning.

Elmo
04-25-2011, 11:22 AM
This is an excellent article that I found regarding this subject.

Using Color Type Selection...
By James Bond

Many times colour type selection has been overlooked in breeding game dogs,
especially in the USA where I went to visit big yards of dogs from 35 up to 250 dogs at
a time. It surprised me that only one or two men did this and they are legends in the
breeding of game dogs, these men are Floyd B. and Jerry C. Over
the years we have done the same and with great success, to say the least. If you have
lack of space or have a small genetic pool, then you can actually tighten up your
blood/family by selecting on type and colour. It is never a guarantee as game dogs
come in all colours and shapes, but for instance lets say you where breeding the
alligator line, and you only access to say 4 to 10 dogs, then I suggest you use this
technique to your breeding program. If I breed for Ch. Alligator blood then I want them
to look like him in every way, which means black coat, red eyes, long body and all the
other qualities this dog was known for. Now I was in the yard of Gary H. and he
showed me the purest Alligator dog he had, and to my surprise it was a buckskin and
white. Although i never said anything out of respect. To me this was a big shock. as I
found out that the Alligator breeders over there try to have as much Alligator or his son
(Rufus) shown in a pedigree, but they did not select on colour or type.

I realized that the purity of them families dropped by 40% in my mind, as they bred on
a paper %. I also realised why they could breed much tighter now than we could,
because they stack and pack various amounts of different dogs. With colours from
white to brindle, red to buckskin and black in to the genetic pool, the result is a great
diversity of different acting and looking dogs out of the same breeding. To my mind
this shows a lack of understanding in breeding dogs, they see it as a short cut if you
are able to keep 50/100/200 dogs . In the US they call this a breeding crap shoot,
which more or less confirms their way of thinking on breeding. Now, we have been
breeding better dogs % wise in this part of the world , probably because of lack of
space and could not afford to feed so many dogs or just had dogs that lacked quality.
We have all had are mother or auntie say - "Johnny boy you look and act like your
grand-father in every way". In theory you are only carrying 25% of your grand-fathers
gene pool, but in real life you could be a throw back to him and be carrying 75/80% of
his gene pool, and this how it works in the dogs. Too often people look at the pedigree
and not the dog, and breed such and so to such and so - because it looks good on
paper and yes then the outcome becomes like a crap shoot. If I breed for the Alligator
type of dog, the apple must fall near the tree, he doesn't have to be a duplicate. But
the one that resembles him the closest will join the breeding program. You might say
his buckskin brother is much better quality than him - why don't you use him?. My
answer to that, is a dog like that would be good for the box, but he definitely has a
genetic build up of dogs prior to Alligator. I am trying to base my breeding on his
colour type and quality, so you can see there is a difference between breeding stock
and brood stock. Of course the brood stock must be of the same quality as the stud
stock, this you do by weeding out the bad dogs and you will be left with a couple dogs
that resemble the original dog you are breeding for.

From this foundation stock, this is where your breeding really starts. And you will find
your breeding is a hell of a lot tighter, with less breeding needed and you are less
dependent on the name of a particular dog. This means that a dog that has Alligator 6
times in his pedigree is much tighter and purer than a dog that has Alligator in his
pedigree 12 or 15 times. Recognizing type and colour is a very unrecognized tool for
breeding good quality game dogs. Another example of of breeding good dogs, or
should I say a VERY good example is the Nigerino dogs. I am sure that most of you
know this dog, or have at least heard of him. Well take a look at his pedigree, he is
75% Eli Jr and 25% Gr Ch Art. From that Art blood, 50% is Eli too, meaning 50% of Art
is Claytons Java. And in the pedigree of Nigerino she is only 12 1/2 % present, but this
bitch had a phenomenal influence on Nigerino and Art was his grand daddy. Now Gr Ch
Art was red and won all his matches in short order. Some say he was blessed by the Eli
Jr style which is true to a certain extent I would say. But Nigerino got his ability, his
style, his colour and his conformation from Art. Now Nigerino was a prepotent dog and
produced lots and lots of dogs red in colour with black masks like he and Art had. All
the way down from Art to Nigerino his grandson who produced his son Red Rover, who
produced our bitch Rosey. They are red dogs with a blackish mask and perform in a
very quick way. If we start looking at the pedigree the dominant dog by far is Eli Jr, I
believe he is there 35 times. If she carries 5 times Gr Ch Nigerino/ Gr Ch Art, then yes
she is still an Eli Jr dog. Well nothing could be further from the truth, she is a complete
throwback to Gr Ch Nigerino and Gr Ch Art., and there you have your answer I guess.
Your questions and papers are inportant of course, but nothing is more inportant than
using the type and colour tool, if you are breeding for a certain dog. This was the article i was talking about!

Mixed it up with a don M story i read in a game dog mag.

Much respect !

Limey kennels
04-25-2011, 05:11 PM
And at the same time your blood needs to advance. If a breeder keeps getting THROWBACKS to dogs from FIFTY years ago then your not getting any better caliber dogs. Just your percentages go up I guess. You shouldn't want any triats from dogs fifty years ago besides gameness and winning.

WHO,
Yes and no it took earl Tudor(mayfield) 40 years to see Tudors black jack come forward again in the likes of Mayfield pit general..

The aces of yesterday are still bij far superior as the dogs of today, Hensh we inbreed and line breed on these individuals.ore at least trie to do so, other wize we would breed best to best to get the best. unfortunatly it thussend work that way we both know that. It works the same with Greyhouds and race horses ecetera. only the pitbull terrier is bij far the purest bred animal in the world AND FOR A REZEN.

I hounestly belive that the dogs of yesterday from around the 70,s till the early 90,s where better dogs then wat i see today" "" with the ecseptions of a couple of old timer breeders , who bij now are out of the game ore very rare to be found"""".

Famely breeding in the last 15 ore 20 years hase gone douwn the drain. try to find a famely of dogs that hase one name behind it for 4 /5/6 ore 7 generations of tested dogs.
To manny dogs today have to manny diferend hands on them with diferend toughts and selection proseses in the likes of one mans game dog is another mans cur!!.

in the old days it was all about TRUTH proving your way and caracter that you put in a famely off dogs, YOUR truth had to come out!!. in the likes of your selection proses. no hiding there. it was comen that a intyer generation of one particulair famely met up against another. they where diferend times and diferend ways as wat we have seen in the last 20 to 30 years!!.

Dont think the evolution(if there is sutchs a thing) of the fichting dog is ore gose as rapit as you tent to belive.
again the aces of yesterday gave us a hint how far the dog could be in the future!!. I aim aware that altho type and color CAN give you a ege in your selection proses, but that caracter CAN be difernd AT FIRST. depending on your disire what you do ore dont whant to see in a famely of dogs
I also realize that you NEED to leave room for mental diversety, otherwize we get in trouble.

One line i remember (forgot witch dogman of the past said it) is If your looking at a cattle rancher who bases his cattle on one prize bull you are looking at a cattle rancher soon to be out of bisenis!!!.

and yes your pecentige is going up!, because you reduce genetic variation witchs on its self can also be very dangeres as you can create a static famely of dogs.

But beside that in time when everyting cose a bit to plan, that outstanding dog ore producer wil come along and you start to breed of him again, and keep repeating it for as long as your able to fool around with these dogs.ore when sombody els is smart enoughf to be able to take the flag over and do his bit.

last but not least to come back at my evolution remark.. a man i used to be frinds with told me there is no evolution nor mutation, i said what!! ofcours there is . he said wel SHOW me somthing that hase been evolved show me!!!!!!! wel I cant you cant nobody can!!,
He also said you CANT get something out of a living gene pool that hasend alredy been in there in the first place!!. in other words there is no mutation.
And if you ever get a ace dog those genes have ALWAY been in the there you where just able bij wisdom ore luck to bring that out to the sirfis...!!!! Now aint that a piece of food for brain:cool:, because that meens the dogs of yesterday where Beter and i belive that , but thats another story..... PS Elmo thanks for the comp

stillborn
04-25-2011, 05:51 PM
i have had a friend (he passed away last yr) that use to breed rats with basically the same formula and he would recreate relatives colors and markings that the gens of the past had to the T. not sure how to apply this to that, but i seen it with my own eyes.

Elmo
04-25-2011, 07:25 PM
i wonder whats the reason behind the higher % of good dogs in the past.
Is it just the fact that there was more freedom to keep these dogs, in which case made it more posible to start good breedingprogram ?
Is the standard not as high as it use to be ?

Ne one ?

Dream Pits
04-25-2011, 10:28 PM
old timers say it was better then, people from the 80's-90's say thats when it was the best and youg doggers say that the dogs of today are the best. Depends on if ur asking Lou or Alfred.
Great thread tho Limey, haven't had many like this as of late.

IRON KING
04-27-2011, 03:13 AM
Hello,
please, tell me,this dog in the photos, in its phenotype has similarities to with any blood line? If - yes, on what exactly the dogs?
Thank you in advance.

19269

19270

19271

Limey kennels
04-27-2011, 05:51 AM
Looks VERY related to the eurly spike/ Nelis blood!!!!..
having said that so do some of the Eli boudraux famely of dogs witchs is no sirprice if you read my toughts on the black stuf in the pelican brief. witch i wrote years ago.... the eli(henry blood) blood did came tru ch spike... I say he looks very representetif of the old blood yes....ps thuse some of these dogs have black marks on there tounqeu

IRON KING
04-27-2011, 08:40 AM
Looks VERY related to the eurly spike/ Nelis blood!!!!..
having said that so do some of the Eli boudraux famely of dogs witchs is no sirprice if you read my toughts on the black stuf in the pelican brief. witch i wrote years ago.... the eli(henry blood) blood did came tru ch spike... I say he looks very representetif of the old blood yes....ps thuse some of these dogs have black marks on there tounqeu

Hello, Limey Kennels!
Thank you for your response and kind words to address to our dog!
"Eurly spike / Nelis blood !!!!.." - You mean:CH MR BULLDOG & LIMEY'S SPIKE (HAMMONDS' IRON JO) / Limey Kennels Nelis ROM blood? Yes?

derrty
04-27-2011, 09:36 AM
Hey Limey, what about these black marks on their tongues

vagabond
04-27-2011, 09:46 AM
Hey IRON KING, it is no wonder that your dog looks like a dog over Nelis ROM, As far as I know, your dogs have Dragon Family's CH Ringo in their pedigrees many times. And CH Ringo is out of CH Spike, same as Nelis ROM. I suppose you have CH Ringo through Iron Kid and Iron Django, two sons of CH Ringo who were well known dogs in former Yugoslavia.

Limey kennels
04-27-2011, 11:52 AM
Hello, Limey Kennels!
Thank you for your response and kind words to address to our dog!
"Eurly spike / Nelis blood !!!!.." - You mean:CH MR BULLDOG & LIMEY'S SPIKE (HAMMONDS' IRON JO) / Limey Kennels Nelis ROM blood? Yes?
Iron King.. Yes i ment Limey kennels ch spike blood like nelis rom but tru CH Ringo, I have some never publiseh foto,s of CH Ring who lived just douwn the road from me about 5 min away. if you need some more info feel free to send a personal post....


Derrty i just like to know !! hahahahhahaha it hase some meaning tho.

derrty
04-27-2011, 02:20 PM
Derrty i just like to know !! hahahahhahaha it hase some meaning tho.

Ok, I just asked because I have one Eli dog that has few black marks on its tongue.....and I thought you have some knowledge and some explanation on that

Best Regards

MOUSE
04-27-2011, 03:14 PM
withs is Representetif of his famely bred douwn from Tudors (Maifield) Nigger , plumbers ch alligator
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9211/niggera.jpg (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/niggera.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/5779/4copyhc.jpg (http://img845.imageshack.us/i/4copyhc.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1070/925copy.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/925copy.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4811/heathersnelisrom1.jpg (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/heathersnelisrom1.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/9492/chsmugler.jpg (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/chsmugler.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5465/crippen.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/crippen.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/1024/dilingerspiketug.jpg (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/dilingerspiketug.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4246/limeycandy.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/limeycandy.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4531/terrormq.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/terrormq.jpg/)
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End product Today http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=191970
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6099/smugs.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/smugs.jpg/)
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Great pictures as well as my admiration and respect for breeding the line.But it is only pure in the sense of the family of dogs.Keep up the hard work.

dogman2007
04-27-2011, 09:09 PM
excellent post

Limey kennels
04-28-2011, 02:41 AM
.But it is only pure in the sense of the family of dogs.. Mouse what do you meen bij that ???

IRON KING
04-28-2011, 05:43 AM
Iron King.. Yes i ment Limey kennels ch spike blood like nelis rom but tru CH Ringo, I have some never publiseh foto,s of CH Ring who lived just douwn the road from me about 5 min away. if you need some more info feel free to send a personal post....


Hello, Limey Kennels!
Thank you for your reply. Of course, you're right - in the pedigree of this dog is 61x - CH MR BULLDOG & LIMEY'S SPIKE (HAMMONDS' IRON JO), but there's no - Limey Kennels Nelis ROM. It is our young male - he is only 2 years.
Grateful for the offer for personal communication.
B.r.

IRON KING
04-28-2011, 06:22 AM
Hey IRON KING, it is no wonder that your dog looks like a dog over Nelis ROM, As far as I know, your dogs have Dragon Family's CH Ringo in their pedigrees many times. And CH Ringo is out of CH Spike, same as Nelis ROM. I suppose you have CH Ringo through Iron Kid and Iron Django, two sons of CH Ringo who were well known dogs in former Yugoslavia.

Hi, vagabond!
Yes, just right - in our dogs, the blood flows CH MR BULLDOG & LIMEY'S SPIKE (HAMMONDS' IRON JO) - through his sons: Van Herpen's ACE (CH Ringo), Heffner's Red Ringo and daughters: Heffner's Miss Spike, OOSTINJEN'S BOBO.
Our dogs do not have Iron Kid. Since the early 90's (and later with 1997, after the death of the founder of the kennel), our goal was - to keep blood Stevan's Black King. That is why our dogs do not have Iron Kid. Himself Stevan's Black King - 75% Sorrells' blood. But as you can see, in spite of this - we managed to get a dog - like IRON JO (sorry, but this is used to name this male in the former Soviet Union). Dog in the photos is not registered in the database, but his brother and sister have registered. Here's the link:
http://www.gamedogped.com/details.php?id=47606&gens=9
P.S. Yes, it is from Yugoslavia were brought the ancestors of our dogs.
B.r.

Limey kennels
04-28-2011, 10:39 AM
Hello, Limey Kennels!
Thank you for your reply. Of course, you're right - in the pedigree of this dog is 61x - CH MR BULLDOG & LIMEY'S SPIKE (HAMMONDS' IRON JO), but there's no - Limey Kennels Nelis ROM. It is our young male - he is only 2 years.
Grateful for the offer for personal communication.
B.r.
Iron King you didnt not understand me, wat i ment was that he LOOKS like the old time stuff LIKE nelis ectera.

vagabond
04-28-2011, 12:44 PM
Hi, vagabond!
Yes, just right - in our dogs, the blood flows CH MR BULLDOG & LIMEY'S SPIKE (HAMMONDS' IRON JO) - through his sons: Van Herpen's ACE (CH Ringo), Heffner's Red Ringo and daughters: Heffner's Miss Spike, OOSTINJEN'S BOBO.
Our dogs do not have Iron Kid. Since the early 90's (and later with 1997, after the death of the founder of the kennel), our goal was - to keep blood Stevan's Black King. That is why our dogs do not have Iron Kid. Himself Stevan's Black King - 75% Sorrells' blood. But as you can see, in spite of this - we managed to get a dog - like IRON JO (sorry, but this is used to name this male in the former Soviet Union). Dog in the photos is not registered in the database, but his brother and sister have registered. Here's the link:
http://www.gamedogped.com/details.php?id=47606&gens=9
P.S. Yes, it is from Yugoslavia were brought the ancestors of our dogs.
B.r.

Although Black King have 75% of Sorrells blood, he is very similar by color and type to his father Django and Django's father CH Ringo. And you have selected your dogs so that they resemble Black King. I guess your family of dogs is ​​a good example of selection described by the Limey Kennels in his article. So, your dogs have more influence of Ringo's blood than the pedigree says, if I can say so. Did you menaged to preserve hunting abilities of those old dogs too?

monsterVili
04-28-2011, 03:51 PM
awesome looking dogs limey would love to get my hands on the henry pup he looks just like my monster dog

Limey kennels
04-29-2011, 01:56 AM
Although Black King have 75% of Sorrells blood, he is very similar by color and type to his father Django and Django's father CH Ringo. And you have selected your dogs so that they resemble Black King. I guess your family of dogs is ​​a good example of selection described by the Limey Kennels in his article. So, your dogs have more influence of Ringo's blood than the pedigree says, if I can say so. Did you menaged to preserve hunting abilities of those old dogs too?
Vagabond thats aczackly how it breakes down!!!!!!

Monstervili how is youir monsterd dog bred..........

IRON KING
04-29-2011, 04:26 AM
Although Black King have 75% of Sorrells blood, he is very similar by color and type to his father Django and Django's father CH Ringo. And you have selected your dogs so that they resemble Black King. I guess your family of dogs is ​​a good example of selection described by the Limey Kennels in his article. So, your dogs have more influence of Ringo's blood than the pedigree says, if I can say so. Did you menaged to preserve hunting abilities of those old dogs too?

vagabond, if we understand correctly what you are asking, the answer is unequivocal - yes! Distinctive qualities of Black King was - a gameness, the mind, the technique - which he firmly conveyed not only their childrens, but also grandchildren too ... And it is precisely on those qualities we are building screening and selection of pairs for breeding. You asked about this ...?

Sorry for bad English. As there is difficulty in translating from English - is not fully understood the meaning of written material. For example this sentence: " Vagabond thats aczackly how it breaker down !!!!!!" Tell me, what it says? Thanks.

Dunlap 1
04-29-2011, 05:05 AM
"Vagabond that is exactly hwo it breaks down."
Don't know where your from IK but you can use google translate and it will do it for you.

Dunlap 1
04-29-2011, 05:08 AM
Sorry, it's not hwo, it's how.

vagabond
04-29-2011, 10:46 AM
vagabond, if we understand correctly what you are asking, the answer is unequivocal - yes! Distinctive qualities of Black King was - a gameness, the mind, the technique - which he firmly conveyed not only their childrens, but also grandchildren too ... And it is precisely on those qualities we are building screening and selection of pairs for breeding. You asked about this ...?

Sorry for bad English. As there is difficulty in translating from English - is not fully understood the meaning of written material. For example this sentence: " Vagabond thats aczackly how it breaker down !!!!!!" Tell me, what it says? Thanks.

Hehehehe IRON KING my friend, you are probably from Ukraine, I am from Serbia and Limey is from Holland. And that's why we don't understand each other sometimes when we communicate on English.... My answer is -yes, that is exactly what I asked you. If you menaged to preserve gameness, style and other characteristics of old Stevan's Black King through your family of dogs - this is a great example of selection described by Limey in his article!!! Your dogs look like Black King and they act like Black King. And if we agree that Stevan's Black King was typical "CH Spike dog" (although there is only 25% of this blood in his veins), then we can say that in the blood of your dogs today dominant influence has Mr. Bulldog & Limey's CH Spike. And that is why your today's dogs resemble to old Limey dogs. Because you have selected from them so!!! And I think Limey confirmed this...

monsterVili
04-29-2011, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=Limey kennels;572903]Vagabond thats aczackly how it breakes down!!!!!!

Monstervili how is youir monsterd dog bred..........

He was out of Ch. Vili II bred into Jedina a bitch out of Ch. Ronaldo, monster's ped. is up on ped online the id. # is 244201 and his half sister ferrara that i had # is 244797 is up there to if you want to check it out.

i lost both of them this last year pretty pissed about it as i was unable to get them stuck together all though got two pups off monster.

i like the way your dogs are bred was always thinking about finding a stud bred like that to stick to ferrara after monster but now she gone. i don't know i'd like to find some Vili bitch to breed monster son to when he ready to keep the blood, he is better that his daddy from what i hear. but really don't know if i want to fork over that much again now that i know a few good people in the states. i really like the look of a vili dog as well as the attitude. monster was dumb as a brick would jump off a cliff if there was something at the bottom he wanted, but Ferrara was smart.

gog123
04-29-2011, 09:29 PM
Any more pictures of that henry pup limey? really reminds me alot of a dog now rip out of rustlers soloman...a certain bulldog look to it if ya know what i mean.

Limey kennels
05-01-2011, 03:19 AM
[QUOTE=Limey kennels;572903]Vagabond thats aczackly how it breakes down!!!!!!

Monstervili how is youir monsterd dog bred..........

He was out of Ch. Vili II bred into Jedina a bitch out of Ch. Ronaldo, monster's ped. is up on ped online the id. # is 244201 and his half sister ferrara that i had # is 244797 is up there to if you want to check it out.

i lost both of them this last year pretty pissed about it as i was unable to get them stuck together all though got two pups off monster.

i like the way your dogs are bred was always thinking about finding a stud bred like that to stick to ferrara after monster but now she gone. i don't know i'd like to find some Vili bitch to breed monster son to when he ready to keep the blood, he is better that his daddy from what i hear. but really don't know if i want to fork over that much again now that i know a few good people in the states. i really like the look of a vili dog as well as the attitude. monster was dumb as a brick would jump off a cliff if there was something at the bottom he wanted, but Ferrara was smart. Monster villi sorry for your loss as it is i cant get on ped on line i tried more then ones to get in contact with these people to give me acses but for some rezen i never get a replai.. so i gues they have to do without me and lots of pedegrees of dogs that came out of our famely.

Limey kennels
05-01-2011, 03:31 AM
Any more pictures of that henry pup limey? really reminds me alot of a dog now rip out of rustlers soloman...a certain bulldog look to it if ya know what i mean.

here is a picture from when he was a puppy together with his assholle budy from the burns stumpy cross breeding that i have mentiond in a eurlyer topic http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3806/dscf1617r.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/dscf1617r.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

FigTreeJohn
05-01-2011, 03:49 AM
Keep it up.

wardt
05-01-2011, 08:46 AM
Limey you no me maby did you nouw I hunted against CH Ringo and lost becaus off ???? respect for your blood ? its pure ?? the dog I hade was from Bob Wise he was pure BRED realy he was out Wise,s Red Demon look who his bro and sis are he was realy pure half bro to Spateckus CH Tuffy and he went into Spike JR the hardest son off the real Spike ? 2 times he have to by piced up 20 min and became the ugly dog in Europe a live Max came the best out of there there to many storys of him,not even to talk about his game test you sayd a same C Hall 4x W CH Sugar was not bred whit the real CH Spike ,to match money ? I did a game test for that breeding whit Max the asked me when Max was sick ,ear infaction ,2 digree onder temperaturere, kennel coff and so on he was 20 kg and sheaking the fed sayd don,t even walk whit him then I did the game test against a dog of 15 kg more weight 20 against 35 kg after 30 min he screemed for more and did same schratch more a same Max did not get the breeding Max ask any boby also the owner of CH Sting he wood not dear 1min against Max ,I say Max and Spike JR from Edie Old Mansh where the real Killing Machienn the best ever befor Wardt,s CH Thunder to many storys of him bath Max whas the best then in the early 1980 love your blood Limey bath CH Ringo whas not the half of JR from Uterecht.

wardt
05-01-2011, 09:07 AM
Limey where do I nouwe you from maby when B&W Joker ore his bro Spice ore when Tug the 5 hour bitch was showed I was there wen Barey Fife was handling STB,s Shara she schatch even been in schock ,she was winning bath not good ear becaus she was opperated befor the hunt thats wen your real good game bitch won and produced good dogs whit Nelis ,realy love that your blood still is there Limey and doing well???
.

wardt
05-01-2011, 09:58 AM
Limey there are same thunder bredt dogs ore halff bred of JR and open , hope you can help and than we will also meet eatch other Buddy Limey.

steinlin
05-04-2011, 08:06 PM
Limey & Wardt,

Interesting!!
I saw Susan Renee, BeautyT(SatinLady) and Croc up North, many years ago.
The picture of Star, is strikingly similiar to many I have seen throughout my own blood, with exception of a slightly different head(the head type came with this breeding)
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=2359

19460
bottom pic under Star's pic is Ch Damon
all down basically similiar to these foundation males
CH Sidney
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=10412
Casey
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=27570

Limey kennels
05-06-2011, 07:20 AM
Steiling those are some very serius peds!!!!!!!. Oldtimers wil know to judge those on there tru valieuw!!!!

Caveman
05-07-2011, 03:29 PM
just my opinion.....

The head of Pete`s CH Roise remember me much of some typical Colby family dogs.

About pure gene pool.....
in my opinion the Colby line is the only pure bred family with the biggest genes pool how does exist. For to create such a family like the colby family is a dogman life not enough.

What we see today are line bred dogs basend on crosses.

Yours in the breed
Condor

Elmo
05-08-2011, 08:51 AM
Steiling those are some very serius peds!!!!!!!. Oldtimers wil know to judge those on there tru valieuw!!!! Hope this is not a dumb question but are you willing to share some info on this ?

for instance i take his one http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=10412

now i dont kno all the dogs.. but what grabs my atention is the third gen. spade x changa on top and botom. is this what makes it so nice?\
just trying to find out what it is you realy look for in a ped. besides the fancy names.

cheers

workingdog
05-13-2011, 11:44 PM
WOW!
Tahnk you very much for this topic! Made me create an Imageshack account just to see your old photos!

fonzie
05-14-2011, 12:48 AM
nice pics but to me when u say gene pool i think about the gentices so what iam triing 2 say is that u dont know what color the pups are or if it looks like the mom or the dad or how many males or females they would throw but 2 my i look for pinmantation that is dark so i breed to darks every time dark coat,eye color and the dark skin.

Limey kennels
05-14-2011, 02:04 AM
Fonzie, you got to be more spesific with your post!!..

steinlin
05-14-2011, 07:33 PM
Hope this is not a dumb question but are you willing to share some info on this ?
for instance i take his one http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=10412

now i dont kno all the dogs.. but what grabs my atention is the third gen. spade x changa on top and botom. is this what makes it so nice?\
just trying to find out what it is you realy look for in a ped. besides the fancy names.
cheers

Makes it so nice??
You are partially correct..in the aspect of inbreeding/linebreeding toward CONSISTANCY in the animals that are successful (to a particular breeders point of view)
I had this blood for approx 7 years before I saw a pedigree or knew how it was bred, I was taught to 'see' the blood(if that makes sense to anyone?)

A combination of gents (one being my teacher) all being on the same page and their many years of owning/breeding/handling the dogs of tight family strains, where it all boils down to a genetic pool that has been carefully mastered to produce WINNERS and the ability to MAINTAIN it.
In my opinion, it is the ability to keep the core blood (that originally produced the desired traits) up front. Like reading the pedigree from the back?
The Spade & Changa dogs (apart from them being talented) were very tightly wired into the rest of the family..a way to keep the old Feeley, Lightener and Henry, Irish strain import selections together...maintaining these original family strains, by their dominant traits, sets a solid foundation to work from.

Selections made from like minded men? perhaps?...but I know for sure that those men combining their talents, made the family foundations "stand-out" to any dogman who had become (even the slightest bit) familiar...as witnessed in many families (eg: Cry Baby, Bouncer, Centipede..etc etc etc)LOLOL...

"You don't BREED combat dogs....you BUILD them"
("you know you got it right when..they look like they are held together with cat gut and piano wire")

ELMO, no question is stupid, if you can learn from the answer...
no answer is stupid????.....welll....better read what I wrote before I say that...roflmao

Before I have ya'll sleeping....hope I explained it somewhat understandably?

Yours in the fancy
steinlin

steinlin
05-14-2011, 07:58 PM
Steiling those are some very serius peds!!!!!!!. Oldtimers wil know to judge those on there tru valieuw!!!!

Limey,

Thank you ...you recognise it?
BUT, you're so young...ROFLMAO

Nice to finally have a chance to talk to you after sooooo many years, my friend

Yours in the fancy
BA

Spike Boogie
05-15-2011, 09:42 AM
Limey....very nice thread that you've got going on here!!!

I'd like your opinion on a question that I've asked others recently!

When does a dog become it's own "Pure" bloodline???

I know many dogs that were put together thru crossing 2 or 3 different strains but now many refer them as its own bloodline!

Let me give you all a few examples of what I'm talking about:

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=560
Mayday on paper looks like a Redboy/Jocko x Bolio/Tombstone Cross. But he has hundreds and hundreds of offspring! I know plenty of guys who run Mayday dogs and they refer to it as Mayday Blood!

Here's a few more examples:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=397
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=14893
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=2435
These are Redboy/Jocko crosses but I've heard some argue that RBJ is its own strain or bloodline!

The Eli/Carver Blend has many examples:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=3
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=152

Garner's Gr Ch Spike is an Eli/Carver blend also but many refer to him as Snooty Blood:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=28

Then there's Spike's offspring:
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=offspring&dog_id=28
Many would argue that Spike is its own bloodline! Hell my dog Boogie is a Spike bred dog!!!

So do you see where I'm getting at? When does a dog become its own Bloodline???

Limey kennels
05-16-2011, 04:58 AM
Spike boogie actualy its very simpel let me use one of our own as a aczample http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328280 if you go back far enoughf you see that our famely started out as a 2 ore 3 way cross. maybe iven more!!.
the main dogs where Nelis rom Tug rom CH Spike Spike being Nelis sire.
there alredy was a purebred spike nelis famely without Tug blood. but Tug was introduced and bred to nelis rom the results where outstanding .

the mutch sought afther ""CLICK"" was there. the click is something many dogman ore breeders are looking for there intyer life without getting it.
some do get it, and these man are able to create supurb famelys around these croses(battle croses).

The Hybrid viger umongst these dogs is of sutch exstreem quality that line and ore inbreeding on these main qualities like gamenees stamyna ecetera. becomes literly EZ. the genetic variation of these dogs wil reduce when inbreeding, securing those quality you like to hang on to.
you merge these genes into a uniform dog ore famely, as they start to be very representitif of those eury foundation dogs.

from this momend on you can say that some of these dogs can FORM a bloodline on there own, because of there very solid gene pool.
as they are able to reproduce quality dogs .
MIND YOU er wil be a time that this ore sutch a famely reatches its peak, and that you slowly need to look for that cross again!! witch is able to give you what you got in the begining .
this however is very difeculd and lots of luck must be on your side.

in teory everyting is posible, but it often comes out of a diferend corner where you least ecspected it to come from ""if it comes at al"". in any case its a never ending story.
you often see breeders that keep on breeding into that great sucses they ones had, but those breeders are running behind and loosing it. they fell into the pure trap in the wrong way.

ofcours there are high quality dogs that altho are croses and ore mildly line bred that are able to push tru a high % of there genes into anything they are bred to.
these dogs are pre potend, and there stamp on there ofspring is sutch that they are able to create a bloodline on there own. but a dog can never become its own bloodline!!
he can be a representitif of the bloodline he is bred of.
Sure we call our dogs the Spike ore Nelis x Tug famely because they where the dogs that started it all and where the genes we bred of.. but they had names like Alligator rufus and bullyson eli jr and tombstone red baby and petronelies fox behind them
and thats how most breeders do it i gues..

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 04:57 AM
tought this would be intresting. everybody always asume that Mayfields Nigger was a black, iven we tought that.
i have seen more then one picture iven on this topic where i posted a picture of him on the chain.
as it is we more then onces get Black and tan dogs and redish tan dogs . od to tell is that some of these dogs actualy change color during summer and winter. winter time they loose the redish color. the black and tan dogs get a fading tan..
Now there is a wel known picture of Mayfields Nigger where you actualy see a bit of tan . i always tought this was due to the picture being very old and faded. till i saw this you tube video with a CLEAR picture of that picture and gues what mayfields Nigger was a Black and tan!!!! chek video frame at 24 sec this is mayfields nigger http://youtu.be/gRDFxOwqYsY This acsplains whre our Black and tan comes from as wel. cool huh

gar
05-30-2011, 07:17 AM
tought this would be intresting. Everybody always asume that mayfields nigger was a black, iven we tought that.
I have seen more then one picture iven on this topic where i posted a picture of him on the chain.
As it is we more then onces get black and tan dogs and redish tan dogs . Od to tell is that some of these dogs actualy change color during summer and winter. Winter time they loose the redish color. The black and tan dogs get a fading tan..
Now there is a wel known picture of mayfields nigger where you actualy see a bit of tan . I always tought this was due to the picture being very old and faded. Till i saw this you tube video with a clear picture of that picture and gues what mayfields nigger was a black and tan!!!! Chek video frame at 24 sec this is mayfields nigger http://youtu.be/grdfxowqysy this acsplains whre our black and tan comes from as wel. Cool huhlimey your eyes must be decieving you , as nigger was a black dog no tan , and the you tube pic as you can see was taken in sunlight ,and as such causes some shading , as if you see the pic of earl tudor holding nigger very close up pic you can see nigger was a black dog , and as far as i know mayfield never had any black and tan dogs bred down from nigger and neither have any pure family breeders ,so god knows were your black and tan comes from , cos it sure aint mayfields nigger .

preme
05-30-2011, 07:23 AM
in his pic on the ped he looks black and tan

preme
05-30-2011, 07:55 AM
Any better pics out there thanks

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 09:58 AM
limey your eyes must be decieving you , as nigger was a black dog no tan , and the you tube pic as you can see was taken in sunlight ,and as such causes some shading , as if you see the pic of earl tudor holding nigger very close up pic you can see nigger was a black dog , and as far as i know mayfield never had any black and tan dogs bred down from nigger and neither have any pure family breeders ,so god knows were your black and tan comes from , cos it sure aint mayfields nigger .

Gar Could be that my eyes are diseaving me, but as you can see his intire body is in the sun!!!. looking at the shade behind him.
still i see a tan on his legs and around the face iven some part of his trote skin.
i have have seen many pictures of nigger in the past mostly the same.. funny thing is we have always bred on the black nigger alligator gene pool color wize
and as stated befor we had a higher nr of Black and tans over the years, same gose for G.Hammonds in the eurly days when he bred the rufus alligator dogs.
If my eyes are diseaving me then i like to hear from other people if they see a black dog ore a black and tan??? .
last but not least,, show me a picture of Tudor,s Black Jack im pretty sure he isend all black!!!.....

gar
05-30-2011, 10:10 AM
in his pic on the ped he looks black and tan

PREM IF YOU LOOK AT THE PIC ,APART FROM ITS A VERY WASHED OUT FADED PIC , YOU CAN SEE THE SHADOWS TO THE LEFT OF THE PIC , SUGGESTING THE SUNSHINE COMING FROM THE RIGHT IN THE FOTO AND FROM THE DOGS LEFT , AND THAT IS WHY YOU HAVE A WASHED OUT OR UNEVEN LOOK TO THE PIC AND DOG.NIGGER WAS A BLACK DOG , AS I SAID BEFORE MAYFIELD NEVER BRED ANY BLACK AND TANS THAT ARE KNOWN ABOUT , AND HE BRED NIGGER MANY TIMES AND AS BLACK AND TAN IS A DOMINANT TRAIT(MOST BLack and tans will throw black and tans even TO A NON BLACK AND TAN FEMALE ) AND NIGGER NEVER THREW BLACK AND TANS , MAYFIELD WOULD BE PISSING HIMSELF AT THE SOLE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OUT THERE TODAY IN TIME , JESUS PRESERVE US FROM PEOPLE BREEDING THIS BREED BASED ON 0% UNDERSTANDING .

gar
05-30-2011, 10:12 AM
HERES A BETTER PIC NOW DOES ANYBODY STILL SAY NIGGER WAS A BLACK AND TAN ?

http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=64971

bgblok68
05-30-2011, 10:25 AM
If thats a better pic I'd hate to see a bad one. lol To small of a pic to win an argument over but he does look black in that pic.

AGame
05-30-2011, 10:30 AM
If thats a better pic I'd hate to see a bad one. lol To small of a pic to win an argument over but he does look black in that pic.


save the pic in photoshop or paint or anything you can zoom in on deff. black only other marking is a lil white on his chest

gar
05-30-2011, 10:31 AM
if thats a better pic i'd hate to see a bad one. Lol to small of a pic to win an argument over but he does look black in that pic.

well it was good enough for you to see very clearly that nigger has no black and tan in him its a non sunbleached foto showing very well what colour nigger is ,and i can tell you that even a black and white pic of a black and tan dogs will show you clearly the shaded areas of the tan colour ,so i think this colour pic of nigger tells it how it is

gar
05-30-2011, 10:34 AM
save the pic in photoshop or paint or anything you can zoom in on deff. Black only other marking is a lil white on his chest

agame you get a gold star for eyesight , now the question limey should be asking himself , is were the fuck did that black and tan shit come from , cos his line today sure has a lot of it.

AGame
05-30-2011, 10:39 AM
agame you get a gold star for eyesight , now the question limey should be asking himself , is were the fuck did that black and tan shit come from , cos his line today sure has a lot of it.


well im just going to stay out of that lil conversation either way he has had some damn good ones i myself could care less but i will deff. keep an eye on the thread

gar
05-30-2011, 11:10 AM
well im just going to stay out of that lil conversation either way he has had some damn good ones i myself could care less but i will deff. Keep an eye on the thread

well he did have some very dogs , especially those early days after he got spike (mayfield bred dog eventhough he doesnt want to believe it) and limey knows nigger was no black and tan , so why does he now want to associate what his family his throwng with nigger , when he knows its coming from something else thats been bred in there over these years , lets hope his eyesight doesnt fail him when he looks at the pic you seen here ,but then he already knows what colour nigger was , thats why his spike dog was black same family so where`s the black and tan coming from , and it aint no throwback , cos ive never seen one from any pure mayfield dogs ,and ive seen them all .

AGame
05-30-2011, 11:32 AM
well he did have some very dogs , especially those early days after he got spike (mayfield bred dog eventhough he doesnt want to believe it) and limey knows nigger was no black and tan , so why does he now want to associate what his family his throwng with nigger , when he knows its coming from something else thats been bred in there over these years , lets hope his eyesight doesnt fail him when he looks at the pic you seen here ,but then he already knows what colour nigger was , thats why his spike dog was black same family so where`s the black and tan coming from , and it aint no throwback , cos ive never seen one from any pure mayfield dogs ,and ive seen them all .



Like i said im staying out of it but i see where he did post about tudors blackjack being not all black no he was a brindle dog but that has nothing to do with black and tans and thats all on this conversation im going to say about it i do not want to accuse someone of something i'll let you 2 work that out on your own LOL

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 12:08 PM
Gar your a idiot. im tryng to discuse this on a sivilized non ""my dick is larger then you dick kind of way!!"". clearly you are a mayfield nigger bloodline hugger hensh the name GAR.
CH Spike never ever was bred the way mayfield claimed. that was is sour grapes on his side due to lack of quality his breedings produced and the los of type he had he might have been one of if not the best conditioner with a record that is unsirpased but thats where it stops.
Nobody and i meen Nobody ever had more proven famely of of nigger alligator then what our famely produced.
show me a nigger alligator famely that produced more then 35 ch 4 grch and 4 rom dogs not to mention the 1x 2x 3x w. out of a famely that never had more then 20 dogs at anny given time!!!!..
I refuse to let this topic turn into a pissing contest and wil ask the moderaters to uphold this topic the way it was ment!!!!.
now my question to you is can you behave that way and keep the BS to yourself???. and show some class and quality that a real dogman would show???..
That little picture you posted of nigger thussend show anything at al!!! its to small and to un clear. i posted the aczackt same picture you posted one page 1 of this topic!!!.
you pretend and asume that our famely hase a LOT of Black and tans. i belive i never stated that. i did say we had more of them then others.
there is a lot of diferense in what you said and what i said. at the same time you try to pretend that this makes our famely lesser pure and ore of lesser quality!. thats very imature..
To tell you the truth i wish we had MORE black and tans then what we have today..
your asumtion that the black and tan hase nothing to do with the alligator x Nigger bloodline is fals..
Let me show a couple of eczamples. now tell me what kind of collor do you see in this picture ore anybody who feels ok to have a normal discussuion..
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1049/princessk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/princessk.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

gar
05-30-2011, 12:29 PM
like i said im staying out of it but i see where he did post about tudors blackjack being not all black no he was a brindle dog but that has nothing to do with black and tans and thats all on this conversation im going to say about it i do not want to accuse someone of something i'll let you 2 work that out on your own lol
nothing to work out , the black and tans in limeys family have no part of nigger thats a fact , i just find it funny that limey is trying to somehow make us believe nigger was a black and tan to jsutify why his family is throwing lots of black and tans .

gar
05-30-2011, 12:38 PM
gar your a idiot. Im tryng to discuse this on a sivilized non ""my dick is larger then you dick kind of way!!"". Clearly you are a mayfield nigger bloodline hugger hensh the name gar.
Ch spike never ever was bred the way mayfield claimed. That was is sour grapes on his side due to lack of quality his breedings produced and the los of type he had he might have been one of if not the best conditioner with a record that is unsirpased but thats where it stops.
Nobody and i meen nobody ever had more proven famely of of nigger alligator then what our famely produced.
Show me a nigger alligator famely that produced more then 35 ch 4 grch and 4 rom dogs not to mention the 1x 2x 3x w. Out of a famely that never had more then 20 dogs at anny given time!!!!..
I refuse to let this topic turn into a pissing contest and wil ask the moderaters to uphold this topic the way it was ment!!!!.
Now my question to you is can you behave that way and keep the bs to yourself???. And show some class and quality that a real dogman would show???..
That little picture you posted of nigger thussend show anything at al!!! Its to small and to un clear. I posted the aczackt same picture you posted one page 1 of this topic!!!.
You pretend and asume that our famely hase a lot of black and tans. I belive i never stated that. I did say we had more of them then others.
There is a lot of diferense in what you said and what i said. At the same time you try to pretend that this makes our famely lesser pure and ore of lesser quality!. Thats very imature..
To tell you the truth i wish we had more black and tans then what we have today..
Your asumtion that the black and tan hase nothing to do with the alligator x nigger bloodline is fals..
Let me show a couple of eczamples. Now tell me what kind of collor do you see in this picture ore anybody who feels ok to have a normal discussuion..
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1049/princessk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/princessk.jpg/)
uploaded with imageshack.us (http://imageshack.us)

limey you stated nigger was a black and tan , you know he wasnt and that pic as agame said shows it clear enough especially if you do what he said to see it even better .now why your so interested in getting the mods to silence me is nothing new , as unfortunaley im not a begginer so i like to think for myself , but i never insulted you , actually you insulted all of us by trying to pass off nigger as a black and tan , so you can justify your family as it is today.as for spike being bred like mayfield said , i would belive it more than your word , and anyway he should know , he bred the dog , and thats why you did have such good dogs in the past , and as for you wishing you had more black and tans , well good for you , that shows just how far your understanding of family breedinbg has taken you after 30 years in the dogs , that your happy to ahve a more outcrossed bred yard than you started with , but then again you never did listen to don about breeding your family did you limey.by the way i suppose the dog in the pic is a black and tan ? Even tough he looks black but as i said nigger never threw black and tans , so i ask you again lmey were did the black and tan in your family come from ?

gar
05-30-2011, 12:42 PM
gar your a idiot. Im tryng to discuse this on a sivilized non ""my dick is larger then you dick kind of way!!"". Clearly you are a mayfield nigger bloodline hugger hensh the name gar.
Ch spike never ever was bred the way mayfield claimed. That was is sour grapes on his side due to lack of quality his breedings produced and the los of type he had he might have been one of if not the best conditioner with a record that is unsirpased but thats where it stops.
Nobody and i meen nobody ever had more proven famely of of nigger alligator then what our famely produced.
Show me a nigger alligator famely that produced more then 35 ch 4 grch and 4 rom dogs not to mention the 1x 2x 3x w. Out of a famely that never had more then 20 dogs at anny given time!!!!..
I refuse to let this topic turn into a pissing contest and wil ask the moderaters to uphold this topic the way it was ment!!!!.
Now my question to you is can you behave that way and keep the bs to yourself???. And show some class and quality that a real dogman would show???..
That little picture you posted of nigger thussend show anything at al!!! Its to small and to un clear. I posted the aczackt same picture you posted one page 1 of this topic!!!.
You pretend and asume that our famely hase a lot of black and tans. I belive i never stated that. I did say we had more of them then others.
There is a lot of diferense in what you said and what i said. At the same time you try to pretend that this makes our famely lesser pure and ore of lesser quality!. Thats very imature..
To tell you the truth i wish we had more black and tans then what we have today..
Your asumtion that the black and tan hase nothing to do with the alligator x nigger bloodline is fals..
Let me show a couple of eczamples. Now tell me what kind of collor do you see in this picture ore anybody who feels ok to have a normal discussuion..
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1049/princessk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/29/princessk.jpg/)
uploaded with imageshack.us (http://imageshack.us)

so now its the nigger aligator line is it , i thought you said nigger was a black and tan and thats why you have so many of them in your family , but now your adding aligator and next gary hammonds , whos yard is a pitifull thing today and full of black and tan aligator dogs (and my arse plays the banjo) if were to believe him , which i dont , as understanding and an idea of gnectics and family breeding will tel you that theres some dog poo in tha vanilla icecream folks

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 12:47 PM
Can you awnser the question and tell me what color the dog in the picture shows you!!!.

gar
05-30-2011, 01:10 PM
can you awnser the question and tell me what color the dog in the picture shows you!!!.if you read my reply i think you will find my answer , but we are waitng for your answer as to the reason you think nigger was a black and tan , you used the foto which is on his ped which anyone can see is an old sunbleached foto taken in strong sunlight which shows somew shading on his lower jaw and also down his left leg all becasue of the sunlight ,which if you opened your eyes you can even see the strong shadow of nigger on the ground , and you are using that foto as your proof , when all it does is prove how liltte you know ,but then we know why you need to jsutify your family today with suchn a royal dog as nigger as your family needs a boot today in time , you need to sellsome pups now that the holland apbt club your new toy to deal with the newbies.so i ask you i s your evidence that nigger is a black and tan the foto from his ped the one shown on the you tube link, as if it is then only a stupid man wolud follow you down that road limey, i for one wont be following you on that one , nigger was a black dog with a small white mark on his chest no black and tan and i dont think you can come up with one from niggger bred by don or key or dann or any of the pure breeders that threw a black and tan within the family so you answer the question you were the one that made the comment not me so dont run away answer it or admit your eyes didnt see the shadow and the pics out htere of nigger show claerly his colur and more importantly his offspring tell the truth just like hammonds humble hail shows his colur anf truth in his offsprings colour of whcih your family is more clsoe to than any today

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 02:09 PM
Gar !!.
clearly you are avoing the question . and didnt awnser anything..
About that Nigger picture funny sun bleacht. inbetween his legs the gras looks normal .ohh and the rest of his body black thusend seem to be infected bij the ""bleach"" at the same hight of his face area!!???. Gar can you share your fotografic ecspertieze on that one as wel!!... why only his frond and rear legs and face have been bleachst bij the sun???
Oh wel you know what your right your the governer!!! on Nigger nolige. you where just able to syber warrior yourself to a higher level for your other mates!!..

its a super coinsidense the bleach in that picture gives him the eczackt same marks as a black and tanish dog hase. for the record here are some crap bred dogs bred douwn from him and yes alligator.
gues they are muds and not the real thing

first the bitch you refuse to tell me what color she is, because you know you wil fail the test.
the only color you see in the (SHARP digital) resend taken picture is black. Tipicel you cant see the tan just like in that 40 year old UNSHARP paper picture of nigger out of the sun.
that 40 year old picture hase no merrit at all.
here you go same bitch bigger picture up close an all black with tan markings(not brindle) http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4343/princess3kbwpd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/princess3kbwpd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) here is another picture, she was a pup here she obviusly looks like crap and not like a nigger alligator dog, and hase absolutly no proven pedegree and is full of confermation faults never the less she amputate stuff
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6554/princess4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/princess4.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
here is her brother Black and tan and the real thing as wel did i mention his brother was DG.............
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9306/dsc03407i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/dsc03407i.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
here is a halve brother another black and tan
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1281/dscf1665e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/dscf1665e.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

These are just 3 of the"" 5""true black and tan dogs this strongest producing nigger alligator famely hase produced out of MANNY dogs in our famely over the last 30+ years. witch where mainly BLACKS, thats right we had just 5 and i wich we had more!.
so your intyer atack post to douwngrade our bloodline in trying the dog franity to belive we have LOTS of them prooves you dont know anything about our blood, and produce make up stories out of pure sour grapes.

sins you claim to be a ecsperd yourself can you show some of your home bred nigger aligator trow backs and
lets have a proven pedegree contest including pictures.... and see who hase the longest D.ck............

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 02:12 PM
PS we dont sell dogs EVERYBODY knows that...............

ben brockton
05-30-2011, 02:14 PM
"gar" what dogs made rank off your yard?

rebeard
05-30-2011, 02:21 PM
intersting thread ,,nigger was black he went thru many hands an theres plenty of pictures of him its not really an issue the black an tan color has been in the dogs for years in small numbers the black an tan in limey dogs come thru the hammonds blood via carvers blood not from nigger who thru reds faws blacks chocos an a few brindles ,as for the misleading comment that mayfeild had sour grapes over hammonds dogs ,, pure comedy ,mayfeild would laugh at those that stole his dogs an laugh even more when they went hysrtical when he told the truth of who they were i guess mr hammonds went an bought up mayfeilds leftovers when gilman died because don had sour grapes to same with the 15 alligator nigger dogs he bought of buddy rouden again dons leftovers that sour grape theory just aint quite fitting is it ,the dog earlier on the thread mistakenly called tiger dan an bullyson jr is in fact ch 400 a nigger /alligtor dog one of 25 mayfeild an gilman matched together more than ANYONE else did with that family, mayfeild bred all those dogs an conditined them to geoerge gilman was a beginer in dogs when he hooked up with mayfeild he was 60 before he started he was a chiken man might be a good idea to ask people that were playing in the game back then as oposed to selling those that were playing stock to the public there is a diffence mr hammonds followers seem to not know who had what when or in other words who is who .. also i noticed the female posted as smuggs dam is wrong ? my 2 sense

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 03:06 PM
Mayfield had sour grapes over every good dog, his BS on that started in de mid 80,s when his crap was send over and could not perform at any level anywhere in the world. he iven claimed that grch banjo was out of his famely!!!. he only claimed dogs that made a name for themselfs.......
(smugs mother)

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/4549/dsc09260e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/dsc09260e.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
also the only good mayfield dogs that EVER DID rise to the ocasion from this side of the world where dogs that came from a cross direcly out of our blood in the eurly 80,s.tru a dog called Bekkers Devil. a alligator x rufus x bully bred dog, who produced alligator trowbacks. And those croses faded off practicly instandly when bred back in the mayfield blood. sins then the claims started that spike was a mayfield dog, and sins then those mayfield people tried to breed to our blood!! going as far as stealing a dog from us!!. there have been a bleu zillion claims about modern greats being of off mayfield blood witch is rediculess. but thats another story and topic.. as far as that picture he looks like a black and tanish to me.ps have never seen a super clear picture of nigger

ATEXAN
05-30-2011, 03:42 PM
here is her brother Black and tan and the real thing as wel did i mention his brother was DG.............
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9306/dsc03407i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/dsc03407i.jpg/)
............

F.Y.I. here is a 10 generation breakdown on that King Pin dog, Limey.

http://txapbt.com/peds/pedStats10.php?dogID=328280

gar
05-30-2011, 03:48 PM
Gar !!.
clearly you are avoing the question . and didnt awnser anything..
About that Nigger picture funny sun bleacht. inbetween his legs the gras looks normal .ohh and the rest of his body black thusend seem to be infected bij the ""bleach"" at the same hight of his face area!!???. Gar can you share your fotografic ecspertieze on that one as wel!!... why only his frond and rear legs and face have been bleachst bij the sun???
Oh wel you know what your right your the governer!!! on Nigger nolige. you where just able to syber warrior yourself to a higher level for your other mates!!..

its a super coinsidense the bleach in that picture gives him the eczackt same marks as a black and tanish dog hase. for the record here are some crap bred dogs bred douwn from him and yes alligator.
gues they are muds and not the real thing

first the bitch you refuse to tell me what color she is, because you know you wil fail the test.
the only color you see in the (SHARP digital) resend taken picture is black. Tipicel you cant see the tan just like in that 40 year old UNSHARP paper picture of nigger out of the sun.
that 40 year old picture hase no merrit at all.
here you go same bitch bigger picture up close an all black with tan markings(not brindle) http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4343/princess3kbwpd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/princess3kbwpd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) here is another picture, she was a pup here she obviusly looks like crap and not like a nigger alligator dog, and hase absolutly no proven pedegree and is full of confermation faults never the less she amputate stuff
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6554/princess4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/princess4.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
here is her brother Black and tan and the real thing as wel did i mention his brother was DG.............
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9306/dsc03407i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/dsc03407i.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
here is a halve brother another black and tan
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1281/dscf1665e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/dscf1665e.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

These are just 3 of the"" 5""true black and tan dogs this strongest producing nigger alligator famely hase produced out of MANNY dogs in our famely over the last 30+ years. witch where mainly BLACKS, thats right we had just 5 and i wich we had more!.
so your intyer atack post to douwngrade our bloodline in trying the dog franity to belive we have LOTS of them prooves you dont know anything about our blood, and produce make up stories out of pure sour grapes.

sins you claim to be a ecsperd yourself can you show some of your home bred nigger aligator trow backs and
lets have a proven pedegree contest including pictures.... and see who hase the longest D.ck............THEES ARE DOGS BRED FROM YOUR FAMILY , WHAT DOES THAT PROVE , THESE ARE NOT DONS BREEDINGS OR KEYS OR DANS OR KERSHNER OR ANYONE WHOS BRED THIS FAMILY PURE .NOW AS FOR MY FOTGRAFIC KNOWLDGE , I ASK ANYONE WITH TWO GOODEYES TO LOOK AT NIGGERS PED ON PEDSONLINE AND TELL ME IF TO NIGGERS RIGHT YOU CAN SEE THE STRONG SHADOW ON THE GROUND FROM THE SUNLIGHT , THEN LOOK AT HIS LEFT FRONT LEG AND SEE THE BLEACHED OUT COLUR ALL DOWN THE LEG (NEVER SEEN THAT ON A BLK N TAN ITS THE SUNLIGHT ,AND ALSO THE VERY LOWEST PART OF HIS BOTTOM JAW AGAIN THE VERY FADED FOTO TAKEN IN BRIGHT SUNLIGHT PLUS IS OBVIOUS , )ANYONE WHOS EVER TAKEN A PIUC OF THEIR DOGS IN BRIGHT SUNLIGHT OR WHO KNOWS WHAT THERELOOKING AT CAN SEE ITS THE SUNLUGHT AND FADED FOTO NOT A BLK AND TAN DOG , WHO ONLY TODAY BECAUSE LIMEY PORCLAIMS TO CALL HIM SO WANTS US TO BELIEVE IT , WHEN THE ONLY BLK AND TANS HE CAN PRODUCE ARE FORM HIS BREEDINGS OR DOGS HE GOT BRED BY HAMMONDS .I WILL GIVE WELDON STOCKTON A CALL AND SEE WHAT HE MAKES OF YOUR LINE OF BULLSHIT , IM SURE YOU WILL WANT TO SHUT THE FUCK UP ONCE HES TOLD US THE COLUR OF MAYFIELDS MOST FAMOUS STUD DOG , WHICH IF HE WAS A BLK AND TAN WOULD HAVE THROWN AS MANY INFACT MORE THAN YOU ,AS YOU CLAIM HES THE REASOMN YOU GET OS MANY BLK AND TANS YOU IDIOT , YOU ARE A JOKE AND MAKING YOURSELF LOOK STUPID WHICH ISNT HARD , I MEAN IF YOU WANTED TO START A BULLSHIT THREAD WHY DIDNT YOU AT LEAST THINK IT THROUGH , BUT TO SAY NIGGER WAS A BLK AND TAN , AND NOW AS YOUR BAVCK IS UP AGAIANST THE WALL YOU SHOW US SOME FOTOS OF YOUR DOGS TO PROVE WHAT?THAT YOUR FAMILY YOU FUCKED UP AND BRED SOME OTHER SHIT IN THERE AND NOW WANT TO CLAIM THAT ACTUALLY ITS ALL DOWN TO NIGGER ? GROW UP LIMEY BEFORE YOU BECOME THE JOKE EVERYONE KNOWS YOU REALLY ARE
hers the ped of nigger with the bleached out pic you even see some on his back but mainly his lower jaw and left front leg look at the shadow to his right our left on the ground
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=378

heres one whichn im sure can show that niger was no blk and tan ,

http://dogarchive.kennel-apbt.com/details.php?id=64971

gar
05-30-2011, 03:50 PM
"gar" what dogs made rank off your yard?

well ben none of them were blk and tan which is what limey was trying to say about nigger , but ben as you know so much im sure you must have seen nigger on dons yard so why dont you tell us is limey correct or is nigger the dog named after his colour

gar
05-30-2011, 04:02 PM
intersting thread ,,nigger was black he went thru many hands an theres plenty of pictures of him its not really an issue the black an tan color has been in the dogs for years in small numbers the black an tan in limey dogs come thru the hammonds blood via carvers blood not from nigger who thru reds faws blacks chocos an a few brindles ,as for the misleading comment that mayfeild had sour grapes over hammonds dogs ,, pure comedy ,mayfeild would laugh at those that stole his dogs an laugh even more when they went hysrtical when he told the truth of who they were i guess mr hammonds went an bought up mayfeilds leftovers when gilman died because don had sour grapes to same with the 15 alligator nigger dogs he bought of buddy rouden again dons leftovers that sour grape theory just aint quite fitting is it ,the dog earlier on the thread mistakenly called tiger dan an bullyson jr is in fact ch 400 a nigger /alligtor dog one of 25 mayfeild an gilman matched together more than anyone else did with that family, mayfeild bred all those dogs an conditined them to geoerge gilman was a beginer in dogs when he hooked up with mayfeild he was 60 before he started he was a chiken man might be a good idea to ask people that were playing in the game back then as oposed to selling those that were playing stock to the public there is a diffence mr hammonds followers seem to not know who had what when or in other words who is who .. Also i noticed the female posted as smuggs dam is wrong ? My 2 sense

now heres a man who knows when to be honest , if im not mistaken he has some limey blood so if hes telling us that limey is wrong then i rest my case .infact hes right on the money and its exacltly as i said that limeys yard is today and has been for some time based off of hammonds blood (full of blk and tan ) and the carver blood which is so outcrossed and has been for decades that its plain to see why the once very nice family bred spike dogs limey had are long gone, and itys fuuny that rebeard mentions hammonds buying up gilmans dogs and buddy roudens , im mean limey must be so jealous to have to admit that maybe don was right about how spike was bred ,but his hate for key is to strong to be honest with himself , and more importantly with don. I mean does limey think that they were going to tell himt the true breeding of spike , when there was more money to make from limey , think about it , and also take a good lok at the dogs and how he threw very much more to type even when outcrossed , as he was a pure dog , but either way the family you have today along with g hammonds is on a genctic level worthless to the breed , they are only good as the individuals you produce but not as breeding stock its far to mixed up and i think the only way to get that back is to start all over again and go to specsavers you get two pairs for the price of one limey

Limey kennels
05-30-2011, 04:18 PM
I rest my case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and leave it up to the record of our famely as that one speaks for itself!!. in contrary to the rediculess claims from Key /Kersner/ and other so called breeders of the purest of the puur mayfield crap for there is NO record

quote myself""also the only good mayfield dogs that EVER DID rise to the ocasion from this side of the world where dogs that came from a cross direcly out of our blood in the eurly 80,s.tru a dog called Bekkers Devil. a alligator x rufus x bully bred dog, who produced alligator trowbacks. And those croses faded off practicly instandly when bred back in the mayfield blood. sins then the claims started that spike was a mayfield dog, and sins then those mayfield people tried to breed to our blood!! going as far as stealing a dog from us!!. there have been a bleu zillion claims about modern greats being of off mayfield blood witch is rediculess

Cynthia
05-30-2011, 04:26 PM
BLACK AND TAN IS A DOMINANT TRAIT(MOST BLack and tans will throw black and tans even TO A NON BLACK AND TAN FEMALE ).

I am not getting into the line debate. However having Sorrells dogs and having Black and Tans. This comment is not true. It is actually a recessive gene.

To get B&T pups both sire and dam have to carry the gene. A friend just did a litter with a B&T male and a red female that did not carry the gene and no B&T pups.

I bred 2 red dogs and got 3 B&T and 2 red 1 Buckskin. Because BOTH parents have the gene for the pups to come out B&T.



Here is a link to a thread where I posted the article from WSK regsarding B&T
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=49473


From the article


The tan point pattern is caused by a recessive gene on the Agouti series gene locus, the following are the alleles (variations) that are definitely known to occur in the American Pit Bull Terrier. There are also a couple of other genes on this same locus, but they are most likely not present in this breed, so we will ignore them in this article to try and keep things simple.


Agouti locus alleles present in the APBT A Dominant Black: produces a solid color (ie.black, chocolate or blue) see note below
ay Dominant Yellow - Produces reds and buckskins
at Tan-Point (recessive)- produces solid color with tan 'points'


A dog needs to inherit two copies of the tan-point gene to be a black & tan. If a pup inherits one copy of the tan-point gene and one copy of the dominant yellow gene, which causes a red or buckskin coloration, then the dog will be red or buckskin, not black and tan. If the dog inherits one copy of the tan-point gene and one of the dominant black gene, the result will be a solid black dog. Because of the recessive nature of the tan-point gene, it can actually remain hidden in the gene pool for many generations without expressing itself. In the case of our breed (where this is not a common color) this is what often happens, but it is important to realize that when the tan-point pattern does pop up it is not some new color mutation that appeared out of nowhere, but rather the manifestation of a gene that has been present in this breed all throughout the known history of the American Pit Bull Terrier. Though it is impossible to say for sure where the coloration originated, our best guess would be that it came from some sort of terrier blood that was introduced many, many years ago, probably during the early formation of the breed in the British Isles.

ben brockton
05-30-2011, 04:26 PM
answering a question with a question LMFAO gar i could give two shits about dogs 50 years dead. im asking about what dogs of rank came off your yard not anyone else.

As we like'm
05-30-2011, 04:40 PM
Here is "another" picture of Nigger... and to be honest on this picture there seems to be some traces of black&tan.... just like on the picture of the Princess dog that Limey showed. It also could be because this is an old picture aged by time, but.... some room for discussion anyway.

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i433/NUMBER668/nigger.jpg

AGame
05-30-2011, 09:34 PM
plain and simple nigger was a black dog but he stated where his black and tan came in anyway so i see no discussion really anymore

who
05-30-2011, 10:49 PM
I told danny B about this thread and he laughed, he said "the dogs name was even NIGGER!!" (With his old man redneck tone lmao)

letsmakestuffup
05-31-2011, 01:36 AM
OK so he wasnt black and tan, maybe he was blue, which is a recessive of black and the guy who named him should have gone to spec savers LOL

Why would you call a black & tan nigger? it dont make sence to me.

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 02:07 AM
As we like them ""thank you"" CLEARLY tan on the cheaks and the legs!!. (aczackly the same as the bitch i showed!!! in the small and bigger picture ) Funny That this picture you came up with bleacht ITSELF on the ACZACKT same way the other picture did!!!!!.

Self proclaimed exspeards who NEVER had a black and tan dog DONT KNOW that the TAN coloration in ""some"" of them comes and gose with the seasons of winter and summer.
same with the RED of red dogs who tent to be MORE RED during the summer and lighten up in the winter. its very simple dogs DO change coloration.
I wil dig up 2 pictures of a dog called Tusker we had, he used to be a true black and tan during the summer and a maskt dog during the winter. for those who do not know a maskt dog is, IT is a ironhead trowback,And bij some oldtimers including Floyd Boudraux UMONGST OTHERS know as a WIDOWS PEAK witch comes douwn tru yes Carvers black widow AKA Tudors Black Shine!!!! witch is OOPS NIGGERS GRANDMOTHER and CARVERS IRONHEAD,S GRANDMOTHER. altho Black widow was a black!!, this gene pool came tru HER!!!. Acording to the oldtimers i spoke back then during my usa trips in the 90,s ..... I wanted to let it go and pass bij, because from the start this was aimed at personalety bij GAR i tried to make it a normal serius discusion point. insted it turnd ugly and personal.......

doginhold
05-31-2011, 04:12 AM
Limey!
Just got a new Bullterrier Male, that is placed at some friends and guess what!
Heīs also a black and tan and if you donīt look closely you even wonīt notice he has "washed" tan coloration on his legs aswell as arround the muzzle.
So on some pics of him you could see black and tan and on some you think heīs shining black!
As soon as possible Iīll post some pics of him!
Heīs out of a tri coloured female and a solid brindle dog!
So pictures often betray you!
Some years back I had a dog that was all black with a small white marking on the throat that was as big as a thumbnail and totally covered by his collar and this white marking was the only difference to his brother as they have been looking exactly the same!

Sea Serpent
05-31-2011, 04:56 AM
Here's the answer, yes he was named Nigger cause he was black, but not mid-night black like
GR CH JR's Midnight
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=6736.

I still don't believe Nigger was Black and Tan Limey. I believe Nigger was a SEAL color dog. Yes he looked black but when the sun hit his coat, it made him look like he had red or a tan tint. Limey maybe that's were you got the black and tan confusion idea from.

SEAL DOGS
http://www.game-dog.com/showthread.php?t=37860&page=1

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 05:06 AM
Dog in hold bij al means put the pic on .

Sea serpend i know what you meen . But i belive that is not the case!!. we to had dogs that where black but in the hot summer sun you could see a dark redish coloration.
having said that chek the picture of the Prinses bitch her body is as black as black can be, yet the tan comes and gose with the diferend seasons. also there are plenty of Black dogs that turn in black brindle in summer time. yet are solid black in winter time. there are plenty of people here that wil have nosihed that in there balck dogs.

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 05:14 AM
ps also in the two pictures of Nigger it shows the tan on the same places. obviusly not a seal dog . However i do belive he is a solid black dog but with Tan shining tru.......

doginhold
05-31-2011, 05:19 AM
Will do my best!
This shot is from sunday! This dog is now two years of age and these shots differ much from others when he appears to be black!

Sea Serpent
05-31-2011, 05:40 AM
C'mon Limey, a pure black dog stays black all seasons unless it was black seal, so GR CH Midnight changes color after the clock hits 12? beginning of winter?

A black SEAL dog would change tint during different seasons or depending what time of day it was out in the sun.

Limey the Tan you SEE on Nigger is from him digging up that BIG hole LOL, the color of the dirt is TAN too, maybe that's the tan you see on Nigger LOL Plus that's a really old ass pic, I could be wrong Limey unless we had a better clear pic of Nigger then we would know the real answer.

nobody
05-31-2011, 05:40 AM
ok i have to agree on the black dog part in the summer.
Had a bitch 17 years ago who was black with white chest like nigger and in the summer she would have red hair at her hip's and a red gloss over her coat.
But nigger was no black and tan dog judging from those pics.

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 06:32 AM
C'mon Limey, a pure black dog stays black all seasons unless it was black seal, so GR CH Midnight changes color after the clock hits 12? beginning of winter?

A black SEAL dog would change tint during different seasons or depending what time of day it was out in the sun.

Limey the Tan you SEE on Nigger is from him digging up that BIG hole LOL, the color of the dirt is TAN too, maybe that's the tan you see on Nigger LOL Plus that's a really old ass pic, I could be wrong Limey unless we had a better clear pic of Nigger then we would know the real answer.
Sea serpend like gentelman lets agree to disagree hahah,...

rebeard
05-31-2011, 06:51 AM
gar my aim is not to discredit limey or his dogs in anyway ,limey an i know each other well enuff an i think hes very sharp and observant an has a good understaning of his OWN dogs as for the black an tan in his dogs this has no bearing on bad quality my point was it just aint from the nigger dog theres vidios of carvers yard in the 60s with a puppy pen with several blak an tan pups in, now this was pre bullyson mania every dog on his yard was pure an top bred off varios bloodlines so i dont assoiciate that color with bad breeding at all just that it comes from the carver blood in rufus i think the pictutre in question does make nigger look like hes got black an tan traits but its just the light but it does apear that way in that shot so not hard to see why it was suspected ,i post on mayfield because hes probly the most lied about misrepresnted man in the breed and when it comes to acusing him of sour grapes we need to look at who had what back then for example the old lighter blood fitwaters ch goldie mayfeild matched an won with that dog an it was the best of it they bred it to tudors yard to create zeke . mert ch big liz ch big louie pit genral all matched by mayfield another well known dog from those lighter x tudor croses is ch butcher boy etc now whole bloodlines been bred off dons leftovers ,,patrick bought bolio down from the tudor ligher crosses made by mayfeild an bred it to tomestone blood who he got from mayfield so why on earth sour grapes ?everyone was trying to get his dogs not other way round ? the tomestone dog was matched an won with mayfeild whole bloodlines been bred off those dogs the alligator dog mayfeild matched an won with him an matched more than any man with that family blodlines were bred from an SOLD from why on earth would he have sour grapes ?mr hammonds pride an joy was a dog named bruno he had him perfoming tricks to the crowd in the pit before his match ,,mayfeild killed bruno bringing a smaller you guesed it aligator nigger dog up two pounds an giving away weight just to get it on,,cant see a reason for sour grapes on mayfeilds part there either,, limey you mentioned mayfeild claiming dogs like he needed to claim a thing off anyone he did not he was not trying to compete with dealers on sales he claimed a handful out of thousands had false pedigrees an he supported it with evidance the eli dog is one famous one and mayfeild wernt the only one who could see eli wernt out of boudreuxs stok EVERYONE who knew cry baby knew ,it just a coicicance the camera jammed on eli just like maverik and another coicidance that since maverik the boudreux dogs look more like nigger dogs than any other line cmon be fair,as for banjo he dont look like any other bloodline than mayfeild the man to ask about him is coy dikerson not those selling the line just like mayfeild was the one to ask about nigger aligator dogs not hammonds who known to be the biggest dealer and onto this threads main topic an ch spike limey youve had bad experiances with those with mayfeild dogs in your country im not even gomnna go there as that your buisness but that got nothing to do with mayfeild trying to steal credit or spikes breeding i think the pics you posted ilustrate it perfectly look at nigger look at alligator look at spike very easy to see all bred from same family very very alike now look at rufus what the hell happned ?i will tell you what happned as there no mysteries only bullshit ch spike was the purest from the aligator family in the world rufus is one of the most outcross they are at oposite ends in the purity spectrum of the aligator family and show it in every possible way, satin lady is NOT aligators dam black beuty is so rufus is very much how his pedigree shows alligator completly outcrossed what baffles me is alligator won mayfeild was winning with his offspring yet rufus did nothing shows to be nothing more than scatterbred yet you still buy into it ,the hardest genes to come out of that family were the black genes one of the last was maverick some of the purest is ch spike and pit genral another extemly well bred hard dog from the black genes again STOLEN from mayfeild gar you might be intersted to know mayfeild himself said of limeys dogs if you put the TRUE ped on them ,,namely spike an tomestone ,,there as game as anyone would ever need he also called the magic x jenny cross the hardest cross in the game mr hammonds is a dog dealer like boudreux they have each sold already many more dogs than mayfeild an tudor did in there whole lives combined now thats ok but there is a diffrence like the quote limey made on show me a cattle man with one bull an ill sjhow you cattle man outta buisness BUISNESS is the key word there for me ,, so to sum up my insult to limeys dogs is that they are simply BETTER bred than the pedigree shows i have no interst in ganging up on people or in promoting modern day limey or mayfeild dogs let them with em prove em but i do have an interest in truth over bullshit in these dogs
ps who knows whos who

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 07:28 AM
Part Truth part BS, i leave it at that.

doginhold
05-31-2011, 07:37 AM
Hi there!

Just sent Limey a picture of my newest Bullterrier male!
Heīs what we call a black brindle and this is how this colour works!
They can fool people by not watching closely that they appear to be black but in real they are massively brindle dogs with biggest parts of black inside their coats.
So if there is bright sunlight on them you can detect this trait or by carefully watching their coat.
They do lighten up in summer and they do get darker within winter season, this happens to many Staffordshire Bullterriers aswell!
The pics I sent to Limey to post them show the same dog from a slightly different ankle. The first picture was taken in spring as he started to lighten up, the second is a recent picture!
Iīll have to look if I have a decent wintershot of the same dog that could lead you to the conclusion that this one would be a solid black dog!

This dog was out of a tricoloured female and a solid brindle dog.

So these dogs do genetically transmit black and tan but they arenīt what we call black and tan dogs!

So might Nigger was a black brindle?

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 07:45 AM
just saw your pictures, but for some rezen i can not file them . it thusend matter . the debate is there. afther a bs start ..

doginhold
05-31-2011, 07:49 AM
Couldnīt manage it either!
Thatīs just my lack of pc abilities!

monsterVili
05-31-2011, 01:20 PM
my dog monster changed color, looked black but during the spring and summer months had a red color tint to him that would make up a saddle on his back an shoulders, his half sister didn't do this. granted he was of a black sire to a brindle dam. his half sister black to black. also i think that some lighter colors than black such as brown, gray, blue, ect. when on the darker side and alot of them make dogs look black. where we come up with seal, which alot of people think is black. i right now have a banjo/tina dog that is a very light buckskin in the winter, but is a red buckskin in the summer she is half way through shedding her white or bleached hair right know. still being young and in game can't see why old timers are fighting over color regardless of why a good dog is where you find it even if you don't know how it was bred

doginhold
05-31-2011, 01:31 PM
Hi there!

Because there are some coloration that simply couldnīt happen if you are breeding one colour to another!
For example if a white dog is bred to a white dog you wonīt end up with black ones!
Quite simplyfied but thatīs how it works basically!
So there are some colors that also could be considered typical for a certain line.
Limey put out an article back then that was called using colour type selection.
Thereīs much more to create a solid and good line of dogs as just breeding winners to winners.
Each line has its trademarks aswell as its pros and contras.
So if you are linebreeding you have to ensure that the pedigrees or ancestry of your dog is correct and try to maintain the positive traits of your and if possible add some with an outcross to improve them.
Thereīs much more than only winner to winner its about the all arround dog what means style, body structure, ability, intelligence etc.
Sometimes you can easily detect if you have false pedigrees on your dog / dogs by knowing how a typical dog from your line of choice is acting, build and (often) coloured.
Thatīs all simplyfied but will give you an idea of the matter discussed.

Limey kennels
05-31-2011, 04:09 PM
here is a picture of Limey kennels Sioux en her brother Tusker eurly 90,s both out of Nelis ROM X Preudens, altho this topic whent south i still whant to share the picture . Tusker in this picture is not a black and tan like his sister . but 2 months afther this picture in full summer he was
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2541/scan0005ps.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/199/scan0005ps.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

bgblok68
05-31-2011, 04:24 PM
doginhold what colors can come out of white to white? Is white considered recessive?

letsmakestuffup
05-31-2011, 04:24 PM
Which dog in the pic is Sioux and which is Tusker? Didnt Prudence have the same colouration as the dog on the left?
Thanks for posting the pic.

who
05-31-2011, 09:24 PM
I pretty much agree with everything redbeard said a couple posts up.

Limey kennels
06-01-2011, 02:03 AM
Which dog in the pic is Sioux and which is Tusker? Didnt Prudence have the same colouration as the dog on the left?
Thanks for posting the pic.
Tusker is the dog on the left, picture pruedens inc
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5831/preudens.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/preudens.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

doginhold
06-01-2011, 05:14 AM
doginhold what colors can come out of white to white? Is white considered recessive?

White! The only colour that appears if you breed them together!
White is genetically considered a sum up of all colours!
Only thing you can tell if a dog might has a certain coloration in his genetical background is if he has a patch that could be of any colour available!
Iīm not that much into recessive or dominant genetic blabla!
But if it would help many of the English Bullterrier breeders could advise you what kind of coloration you get if you mix some colours up together!
This was important as the Bullterrier back then was only bred for white coloration and as they did allow coloured Bullterriers they did some outcrossing to the white lines to avoid defness etc. Therefore they all pretty much have a clue what colour produces what colour!

bgblok68
06-01-2011, 07:09 AM
Thanks, I was pretty sure I read were white was considered recessive along with blue. I saw a white female and blue male produce pups that were fawn/white and black/white with black noses. Just trying to understand the genetics of color. lol

doginhold
06-01-2011, 07:48 AM
Thanks, I was pretty sure I read were white was considered recessive along with blue. I saw a white female and blue male produce pups that were fawn/white and black/white with black noses. Just trying to understand the genetics of color. lol

Believe me, it took me a hell of a time too!
And still I have not a perfect clue!
I do have a site, but itīs all written in german that explains it quite simple!
Maybe youīll just check them English Bullterrier pages and youīll find the basic rules!

letsmakestuffup
06-01-2011, 10:25 AM
Thanks, I was pretty sure I read were white was considered recessive along with blue. I saw a white female and blue male produce pups that were fawn/white and black/white with black noses. Just trying to understand the genetics of color. lol

Colour is one of the easiest things to understand in genetics, have a look at these :
http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=101

http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=47

Finito
06-01-2011, 05:04 PM
All white bull terriers have some colour. Just that it is not there for the eye to see. You will learn by the offspring & what colour they carry.

bgblok68
06-01-2011, 09:37 PM
Thanks letsmakestuffup, I've read that before. With all them big words I'd have to read through it several times and its hard to sit still that long. lol

luckystrike
08-18-2011, 12:43 AM
Mate,

Ive always admired your dogs and family line. Your breedings go way back and i congratulate you on keeping it real. But the thing that pisses me off, is trying to get hold of some of your breedings. a few around here that have some of your dogs are as tight with them as a virgins crack.

No offence, but i think ive found something a lot more active and certainly not a nightmare to get hold off. Yor bloodlines are great, but not that great, that you cant aquire anything off it.

Limey kennels
08-19-2011, 02:39 AM
Luckystrike thank you for the comp, and good for you to have found something you like....

Flipside
06-03-2013, 09:07 AM
Gar !!.
clearly you are avoing the question . and didnt awnser anything..
About that Nigger picture funny sun bleacht. inbetween his legs the gras looks normal .ohh and the rest of his body black thusend seem to be infected bij the ""bleach"" at the same hight of his face area!!???. Gar can you share your fotografic ecspertieze on that one as wel!!... why only his frond and rear legs and face have been bleachst bij the sun???
Oh wel you know what your right your the governer!!! on Nigger nolige. you where just able to syber warrior yourself to a higher level for your other mates!!..

its a super coinsidense the bleach in that picture gives him the eczackt same marks as a black and tanish dog hase. for the record here are some crap bred dogs bred douwn from him and yes alligator.
gues they are muds and not the real thing

first the bitch you refuse to tell me what color she is, because you know you wil fail the test.
the only color you see in the (SHARP digital) resend taken picture is black. Tipicel you cant see the tan just like in that 40 year old UNSHARP paper picture of nigger out of the sun.
that 40 year old picture hase no merrit at all.
here you go same bitch bigger picture up close an all black with tan markings(not brindle) http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4343/princess3kbwpd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/princess3kbwpd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us) here is another picture, she was a pup here she obviusly looks like crap and not like a nigger alligator dog, and hase absolutly no proven pedegree and is full of confermation faults never the less she amputate stuff
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6554/princess4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/princess4.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
here is her brother Black and tan and the real thing as wel did i mention his brother was DG.............
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9306/dsc03407i.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/219/dsc03407i.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
here is a halve brother another black and tan
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1281/dscf1665e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/dscf1665e.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

These are just 3 of the"" 5""true black and tan dogs this strongest producing nigger alligator famely hase produced out of MANNY dogs in our famely over the last 30+ years. witch where mainly BLACKS, thats right we had just 5 and i wich we had more!.
so your intyer atack post to douwngrade our bloodline in trying the dog franity to belive we have LOTS of them prooves you dont know anything about our blood, and produce make up stories out of pure sour grapes.

sins you claim to be a ecsperd yourself can you show some of your home bred nigger aligator trow backs and
lets have a proven pedegree contest including pictures.... and see who hase the longest D.ck............


Limey...from the last two bottom pics...how were those dogs bred?

dogman2007
06-10-2013, 06:52 AM
rustler was the man

Theo
06-10-2013, 09:56 PM
I'm just an old man from Louisiana, now living in Texas. Your photos brought back some wonderful memories...of good times and good dog men. I lived right down the road from Mr. Floyd and some of mine were were out of his blood and the rest I got from Maurice's yard in Texas. Well you can imagine the rest as to what kind of dogs came from that motley bunch.
The reason I write to you Limey, is that I may have seen one of 'Alligator's' matches at Carver's place, but I'm not completly sure it was him. I *do* remember being told the black dogs top was Tudor's 'Nigger' and the bottom was one of Maurice's scatter-bred bitches. And he was one big-ass dog,too. IIRC he won at around three-quarters of an hour, and I've since been told that if that wasn't 'Alligator' it was his twin brother.
I've seen some of the best dogs and shook hands with their breeders and owners, but I have to tell you that 'black dog' was and still is the single most powerful dog I have ever seen. And I have seen some real monsters.
On a humorous note, many years later I was talking to a few "real" dog men when 'Alligator's' name came up. One old Cajun gentleman said that the dog was one of those APBT canine rarities, that is the longer the match, the stronger he became. The man's son said, "Yep. One match they'd been scratching for about a half-hour, and it was the other dogs turn to go across when the black dog started going crazy, screaming and twisting and just raisin' pure hell trying to get away! He even bit his handler! So I said ,"Well that can't be the first time a dog did that." The old man said, "I agree with you. But I"ve only seen this level of intense gameness and raw power once, prior to this match. And it just so happens it too was a black dog. Went by the name "Bullyson." His son adds,"Yes sir, that black dog just went all Bullyson on his (the handler) ass. So I said, "Either that or those 'black' dogs were bred then put here by aliens." Everybody stopped walking and looked at me, and I made a whole 3 seconds before I bust out laughing. A few more seconds and some of us were rolling around in the dirt, gasping for breath.....wow, a couple of tears just ran down my cheeks.
Thank you and bless you Limey, for the long ago memories

Theo
PS MY best male was out of Miss Pat's favorite dog. He was pure "Stompanato." My little bitch was sired by (Shivars) Loposays "Buster."

Limey kennels
06-11-2013, 01:27 PM
Teo Thats awesome to have seen Alligator in person. as it is >Today< we made this breeding Both male and female are very inbred ore tightbred on Alligator blood with carver and Eli influenses.
Here is the male 28148 55lbs alligator sized beast.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=328280 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328280)<!-- m -->
<!-- m -->http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=303012 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=303012)<!-- m -->

( missing part in the males pedigree above http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=210425 )
we belive this is as heavy bred Alligator you can get. The Bitch Hammonds Dalotta(aka 6,5k on paper is the tightest ore purest(68 1/2%) bred Alligator dog in the usa with her littermates. Nice to see this topic brought back some memmories for you.

PS mayfields Nigger 28149
I wonder where that tanish on the male(above) we used came from on the legs and around the mouth.... clearly the picture of Nigger is bleachst and ore are sun shade deflections..
<!-- m -->

Limey kennels
06-11-2013, 01:33 PM
ps i compleatly screwed up with that breeding ped we made
the male http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328280

this is the bitch http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=457978

Sampson1
06-11-2013, 02:38 PM
ps i compleatly screwed up with that breeding ped we made
the male http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=328280

this is the bitch http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=457978

Whats up Limey? I tried to sent you a message, but it said your inbox was full. Can you shed some light on this dog and his lineage for me? ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [25747] :: GWOLF'S & RUIZ BULLIT (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=25747)

S1

Limey kennels
06-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Bullit was a littermate brother to the best dog we ever owned and bred the Magic dog. Bullit was a plug . but toughf as nails. we took him along to the usa on one of our trips together with King Gator and the tracy bitch. he produced from what i heard some outstanding dogs. good lookers as wel!!. he himself was very undershot and not so strange if you see how he is bred. Altho his Sire is NOT Bulletje but the Terror dog....

Sampson1
06-11-2013, 04:27 PM
Oh ok I have a granddaughter to him is my reasoning for asking. I wasn't aware he was off Terror. Good to know though. My gyp is off this male bred to an Emile female. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [285071] :: | PINERO | (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=285071)

S1

gillagan
06-12-2013, 11:14 AM
I still don't know how you clame to have the tight alligator blood with all of the out you have had to use. We still have this and offspring off him?

ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: D&C GAMEDOGS TRAIN :: [197776] (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=pedigreeStatistics&dog_id=197776)

Limey kennels
06-12-2013, 11:23 AM
Oh ok I have a granddaughter to him is my reasoning for asking. I wasn't aware he was off Terror. Good to know though. My gyp is off this male bred to an Emile female. ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [285071] :: | PINERO | (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=285071)

S1If there are more of Bulit,s ofspring around and ore close bred to him . i would snatch them if i were you..

AGK
06-12-2013, 11:23 AM
I would think hammonds would have the tighest alligator blood on the planet since he is still breeding dogs....

Nice ped gilligan. I like that nigerino dogs looks alot.

AGK
06-12-2013, 11:25 AM
I like your dogs too limey, them black and tans are good lookers.

AGK
06-12-2013, 11:30 AM
The one dog you keep posting is a tri color though not a black n tan, or are my eyes decieving me.?

hammer head
06-12-2013, 11:47 AM
i dont know what the world is coming too......... lol!

Alligator was a deep game monster with hybrid vigour to boot. IF any dog claims to walk in his shadow let them walk the walk.....

Alligator was impressive for what he did in his style. Inbred S.O.B off alligator are a waste of a chain spot unless your planning to stick them to a big bitch to throw something worth feeding. Damn all these tight bred small ass dogs. Aint worth the keep if it 50+ dry and 58lbs wet.

Limey got the closest hound to rival Alligator. Stacking dead dogs into any bloodline will get you piss poor pooches that a good cross would snap in two. Anything under 44lbs dry is for the birds.

This animal would rival Alligator and wouldnt let him walk away lightly..... bred the same with a unknown on the bottom.

Virtualpedigree (http://apbt.pedigrees.co/details.php?id=81002)

hammer head
06-12-2013, 11:51 AM
aint worth the keep if it AINT 50+dry & 58lbs wet...... correction

Limey kennels
06-12-2013, 11:55 AM
I still don't know how you clame to have the tight alligator blood with all of the out you have had to use. We still have this and offspring off him?

ONLINE PEDIGREES PEDIGREE STATISTICS :: D&C GAMEDOGS TRAIN :: [197776] (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=pedigreeStatistics&dog_id=197776)
If you have done your home work about breeding, then you might have known that pedigree statistics are JUST THAT. Hens i said that Miss Dalotta is the tightest bred Alligator dog in the USA (wel was as she is no longer in the usa). % wize ON PAPER.

Now pedigree statistics dont mean f..kall. Its the trowback gene pool in the dogs you breed on ore for, that detirmin the purety of the dogs in question.
I have said hunders of times that. A 25% alligator dog can be mutchs purer dog then a 75% alligator dog. If the trowback of the 25% dog is right and the trowback of the 75% alligator dog is OF!!!!!!.
Hensh Type behavier and coloration selection prosses wil keep help you closer to the dogs your aiming for.
Hensh NR2 when you DONT practis these (in) breeding technics you wil get dogs that SHOOT PAST your goal and draw out or up the dogs PRIOR to the dogs your aiming at.. and thats how the cooky crumbles. Reading dogs is mutch mutch more importend then reading pedigrees.. on claiming pure bred dogs who are pure bred on paper...

Ecsperience has shown us that when you DISREGUARD the breeding tool type behavier and coloration. You are able to breed mutch mutch tighter PEDIGREES. and wil reach your goal where your dogs start to show degenaration mutch LATER.
Then when you DO use these breeding technics.

HENSH nr 3 you need to OUT cross more often. because purety and tighten up blood comes way sooner ore quiker then you ecspect as with these breeding tools you REDUCE genetic VARIATION...
You might understand afther reading this that there are manydiferend ways to Rome, In other words there are diferend ways in breeding pure dogs...... Ours is one of them and the record speaks.....

gillagan
06-12-2013, 12:16 PM
Ok not going to get into this not arguing or any of that we don't post peds so can't show anything other than old peds but we have a dog name Spaid and some old sofiakis blood.
Your doing good with what u have. I like how u breed had a few dogs off you and I can say I wish I had one of th back.

Limey kennels
06-12-2013, 12:30 PM
Im sorry im so used to be negatifly questiond, because we use diferend ways to breed dogs, that the reactions comes nearly natural..

gillagan
06-12-2013, 12:54 PM
I understand and tgats why I don't post on here much it's always a fight. I do think we talked a few years back about my old red boy dogs. At that time I think you was just getting started with ur red boy dogs.
I can say you do have some of the best old alligator blood around. And you did a much better job than Gary. I wish you the best of luck and would like to say keep up the good work.
I Owned two dogs from you and one was the games dog I've ever seen.

Limey kennels
06-13-2013, 01:12 AM
Thanks Gilligan. Im starting to remember!!im pretty sure that dog you seen was out of the Magic dog, brother to Bullit. and out of a grch midnightnight bitch. it was a mainly alligator/ pit general cross, and it showed. altho they lookt purebred.. i send over 2 littermates a brindle one as wel....

keystone
07-26-2013, 04:30 AM
the only black and tan i have seen in my life ..was when i was 18 my first dog a german shepard ....
nevr heard don about a black and tan .....

Roveros
07-26-2013, 10:20 PM
Some really interesting points came up in this thread. Cynthia posting the information regarding the black and tan points being recessive and both parents having to carry the gene was enlightening. I have read it before but it does show that there is a lot of ignorance about colour in the breed. I bred staffords years ago and bred a dog with the "tan points" Although it was more brindling than tan very much like one of the dogs Limey showed.

Whether the points are pure tan or brindle is irrelevant as the "points" always appear in the same places on the dog. I agree with Limey in regards to throwback percentages and some dogs will throw stronger to one side of the pedigree often colour is used as a marker to create this belief but it is only one factor. General type and behaviour are other factors to be taken into account.

In one of strattons books there was a photo of a merle pitbull which i have never seen in the flesh. The merle gene is similar in my understanding that both parents have to carry the gene for the colour to show.

What all this means is it really doesn't matter if Nigger was a black and tan or not. What we do know is some families produce this colouration more than others simply because that family is more likely to carry the gene in both parents. It is not a sign of bad or good breeding but simply a sign that that dog had a lineage that carried that particular gene for colour.

keystone
07-28-2013, 04:25 AM
i mean nevr saw on in my breeding neither don.
there was a family in this erea of them ...a friend brought 2 with him ..those had crully tale's like pigs ...so the tale's where circling around .....
we called them the heli generation lol

hammer head
07-30-2013, 06:08 PM
heres a pure family for ya...... This is why selection matters if your trying to preserve & reproduce a close knit line of dogs. It helps if you know what your trying to preserve and whether its making the grade throughout the generation.

hellraiser
07-31-2013, 12:38 AM
heres a pure family for ya...... This is why selection matters if your trying to preserve & reproduce a close knit line of dogs. It helps if you know what your trying to preserve and whether its making the grade throughout the generation.

I find Your posts to be hilarious

the dogs on the bottom are not even close to the dogs on the top of that photo thing You posted.

If You are going to try and compare dogs at least try to have a basic understanding of dogs in general and the actual dogs which You are trying to talk about.

keystone
07-31-2013, 04:12 AM
hammer you missing the tut dog in the top of your foto thing .....

Dusty Road
07-31-2013, 04:56 AM
Colby bloodline.... Old family red nose.....Mayfield.... One thing they all have in common is their tight bred bloodlines... so what..?

Dannyb
08-01-2013, 03:48 PM
I find Your posts to be hilarious

the dogs on the bottom are not even close to the dogs on the top of that photo thing You posted.

If You are going to try and compare dogs at least try to have a basic understanding of dogs in general and the actual dogs which You are trying to talk about.

Maybe it's just me but I notice a pretty strong consistency. Perhaps you could show me what you mean?