Are the Dog Whisperer's methods safe?

[3MTA3]

Are the Dog Whisperer's methods safe?

Rebecca Dube

From Monday's Globe and Mail Published on Monday, Jul. 12, 2010 9:23AM EDT Last updated on Monday, Jul. 12, 2010 10:07AM EDT


The Dog Whisperer, Cesar Millan, has built a media empire on his ability to tame and train the most incorrigible of canines. Millions watch his show on National Geographic each week to see the charismatic star teach hapless owners to cure barking, jumping, aggression and fear in dogs.

But could his forceful methods be ineffective, even dangerous? Some think so. There is a growing backlash against Mr. Millan from dog-behaviour experts and dog owners who fear that he could bring punitive training back in vogue, despite long-established evidence that positive, reward-based training works.

“It was a surprise to a lot of dog trainers to suddenly see this very old-style training, and to find that it caught on so quickly,” said Stanley Coren, psychology professor at the University of British Columbia and author of several books about dogs, including How Dogs Think: Understanding the Canine Mind and The Intelligence of Dogs.

There’s no denying that Mr. Millan and his techniques make great television. Every episode of The Dog Whisperer features Mr. Millan swooping into the home of someone with a misbehaving dog, camera crews in tow. He certainly seems to have a magic touch – a few firm “tsch!” sounds and leash tugs from Mr. Millan and the former devil-dogs trot placidly to his side, gazing angelically at their stunned owners. The real entertainment value of the show is watching Mr. Millan teach those owners how to become, in his words, “pack leader,” dominant over their own dogs.

“I rehabilitate dogs,” Mr. Millan says in the voice-over before every show. “I train humans.”

It’s the wrong kind of training, critics say, and any rehabilitation may be short-lived once the cameras are gone.

“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and use of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous,” said Jean Donaldson, director of the SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers in San Francisco, in a widely disseminated critique of the show. “A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. … To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”

Dr. Coren said the methods used by Mr. Millan – who has no formal training in dog psychology or animal behaviour – are a throwback to those used to train German military dogs in the 1940s. “The basic flaw in his technique is relying on the notion that dominance is established by force, and nowadays we know that’s not the case.”

“The leader of the pack is the one that controls the resources,” Dr. Coren said. Thus a well-timed treat to reward good doggy behaviour (for example, not freaking out when the doorbell rings) can be more effective than 10 of Mr. Millan’s physical “corrections” aimed at curbing bad habits.

The dangerous part of Mr. Millan’s methods, critics say, is that they may get a dog to stop growling or lunging, but they won’t cure the underlying fear or aggression, thus creating a dog that’s more likely to strike without warning.

(For his part, Mr. Millan has pointed out that his training goes further than the corrections seen on TV that his critics denounce.)

Respected veterinarian and dog behaviourist Ian Dunbar, who heads Berkeley, Calif.-based Sirius Dog Training, has called this technique “removing the ticker from the time bomb.” He and Ms. Donaldson feel so strongly about Mr. Millan’s approach that they have produced a DVD titled Fighting Dominance in a Dog Whispering World.

The National Geographic channel runs a “don’t try this at home” warning before each episode of The Dog Whisperer. “The telling thing is this disclaimer,” Dr. Coren says. “What makes good television doesn’t necessarily make good science.”

Mr. Millan shrugs off the criticisms, saying his training methods are natural and humane.

“It's the difference between going to school and the dogs being your school,” Mr. Millan told a National Geographic interviewer. “One is the intellectual knowledge, the other one is instinctual. I am instinctual.”

His pop-culture juggernaut rolls on: In addition to his TV show and DVDs, he has a magazine, bestselling books, a line of dog products and even human clothes for sale.

At a recent pet show in New York, people lined up for three hours to meet him. Jackie Comitino of Long Island, wearing a T-shirt that said “Tsch! Be a pack leader,” waited with her two dachshunds, Dylan and Cody. She said Mr. Millan’s teachings had changed her life as well as her dogs’.

“Every dog owner should read his books,” she said. “I follow his method to a T.”

Are the Dog Whisperer's methods safe? - The Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/fighting-the-myth-of-the-alpha-male/article1636680/?cmpid=rss1)

[ClayLan]

I say do what works. Sometimes you have to step out of the box with things i hate how everyone has to be so PC all the time. Some dogs positive reinforcement works, some it dosent. I think all these so called experts are just jealous that the guys method works and is different from theirs. And they are jealous that he has a TV show and they dont. lol, just my thoughts.

[ReleaseTheHounds]

I got no problem with either positive or negative methods, this really isn't about either. The man bases his whole concept of dog behavior on a wolf pack study that has been proven now to have huge flaws and little to no correlation to how wolves really behave in the wild, let alone how the domestic dog works.

Even some of the strongest trainers who use negative reinforcement training have made comments about this guy simply doing more damage than good because he just doesn't have the needed knowledge about canine behavior to be doing the job he does.

I think some of the advice he gives people is solid, but his training methods are not. Example - I love that he tells all the yuppy folks watching TV that a dog is an animal and needs to be first and foremost treated like an animal. I like that he puts it into people's head that a dog wants to work first and then worry about "love" later. Beyond that is where he and I tend to disagree on a lot when it comes to actual methods.

I think if he tried his "dominance based" techniques on a truly dominant dog and not a dog that was just bluffing, he'd probably get his ass handed to him. I'd love to see the man go toe to toe with a truly pissed off male Akita.

[synno2004]

I say do what works. Sometimes you have to step out of the box with things i hate how everyone has to be so PC all the time. Some dogs positive reinforcement works, some it dosent. I think all these so called experts are just jealous that the guys method works and is different from theirs. And they are jealous that he has a TV show and they dont. lol, just my thoughts.

I agree, his methods work!!

He has been bitten by many dogs. There has to be a balance not ALL dogs respond the same, Lets face it DOGS are SMART and if they can get away with SHIT, they will do it. They sometimes need a FIRM hand to remind them who is BOSS!! You. the provider..............................

I SAY PHUCK all these YUPPIE SUCKAS and EXPERTS!! and REMEMEBER THIS.............."THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD!!!!"

YOU CAN BULLSHIT PEOPLE and make legitimate arguments but some of these so called experts only speak because of what they have READ on a BOOK, but not actually been out there on THE FIELD!

MY .02

P.S. and also SEEK professinal HELP

[ReleaseTheHounds]

I like how people think what they see on TV works because the little montage tells you so. There are so many complaints made that once he leaves, all the problems start again or return even worse than they were before.

Trust me I believe in some methods that most would call harsh - for example I think a lot of the training techniques from the Koehler Method work great. I just don't think this man is a "Dog Whisperer" he just forces the dogs into temporary submission through force exhaustion and fear. It really is not leaving any lasting fix.

[AmericanDogMan]

Short answer yes they work.

It's all about speaking your dog's language and telling them what you want them to do nonverbally. Do what work's
A lil of this and lil of that and love your bulldogg and spend time with him/her that's the only way to train them, through a bond. That's basically what the whisperer's method's are.
There's no sure fire one method but his techniques are nice tool's to have in the arsenal.

[AGame]

Short answer yes they work.

It's all about speaking your dog's language and telling them what you want them to do nonverbally. Do what work's
A lil of this and lil of that and love your bulldogg and spend time with him/her that's the only way to train them, through a bond. That's basically what the whisperer's method's are.
There's no sure fire one method but his techniques are nice tool's to have in the arsenal.


Yep, i agree with u ADM i see no problems with what he does hey if it works for him that's great everyone uses different methods the man truely loves animals and loves his job and hey he does bring some positive light to the APBT to the general public i can't really hate on the man but to each his own that isn't really my personal method of training one of my dogs bulldog or any other i have ever owned and i honestly think alot of the people talking shit on the man are jealous no doubt but at the end of the day i could care less LOL imma do me and everyone else is gonna do them

[ReleaseTheHounds]

Short answer yes they work.

It's all about speaking your dog's language and telling them what you want them to do nonverbally. Do what work's
A lil of this and lil of that and love your bulldogg and spend time with him/her that's the only way to train them, through a bond. That's basically what the whisperer's method's are.
There's no sure fire one method but his techniques are nice tool's to have in the arsenal.

I agree with what you posted here - the basis of his techniques when you simplify like this are fine. My only issue is his concept of dominance is totally based off a flawed study of wolves. It simply doesn't work like this with truly dominant dog breeds, you create a resentful time bomb if you discipline certain breeds incorrectly, and he simply applies a one method fits all approach which I don't like.

This man thinks you can train dog aggression out of a bulldog by "dominating" the shit out of it. He also has stated that dog fighting dogs are traumatized and trained in order to make them fight... he spreads some seriously bad info.

[AGame]

He also has stated that dog fighting dogs are traumatized and trained in order to make them fight... he spreads some seriously bad info.


If i did have anything bad to say about the man it would be this he doesn't know much about how the real dog game goes as far as a legit dog man and how they really work there dogs. he pretty much just knows of the inner city bullshit

[AmericanDogMan]

I agree with what you posted here - the basis of his techniques when you simplify like this are fine. My only issue is his concept of dominance is totally based off a flawed study of wolves. It simply doesn't work like this with truly dominant dog breeds, you create a resentful time bomb if you discipline certain breeds incorrectly, and he simply applies a one method fits all approach which I don't like.

This man thinks you can train dog aggression out of a bulldog by "dominating" the shit out of it. He also has stated that dog fighting dogs are traumatized and trained in order to make them fight... he spreads some seriously bad info.

Ok, I under stand what your saying... however, if you have a dog, especially a dominant powerful dog, you must at all time's be in control.

So again I understand the passion and I can see where you might disagree with him(Cesar), but you do agree that you have to be in control and your dog's leader at all time's tho?

[Blau]

I used to treat Cesar's word like the word of God when it came to dog training and behaviour... Then I decided to do some research, buy some books, talk to some people. I've found that the Koehler Method, IMO, is the best method for dogs, and while Cesar is right about the fact that dogs should be treated as DOGS, and not little fur babies, I disagree with his overly aggressive dominance techniques.... I also detest the fact that after watch him, people think that it's 'all how your raise 'em' when it comes to APBT's and that if you're a 'dominant leader', you can own full out DA bulldogs and never have a fight, and they can be loose around eachother. :rolleyes:

[AmericanDogMan]

people think that it's 'all how your raise 'em' when it comes to APBT's and that if you're a 'dominant leader', you can own full out DA bulldogs and never have a fight, and they can be loose around each other. :rolleyes:

Ok, well I would hope no one would be silly enough to believe that. :dogdrink:
That's some dangerous (yard accident flavored) Kool Aide

[HighCoastHiker]

I used to treat Cesar's word like the word of God when it came to dog training and behaviour... Then I decided to do some research, buy some books, talk to some people. I've found that the Koehler Method, IMO, is the best method for dogs, and while Cesar is right about the fact that dogs should be treated as DOGS, and not little fur babies, I disagree with his overly aggressive dominance techniques.... I also detest the fact that after watch him, people think that it's 'all how your raise 'em' when it comes to APBT's and that if you're a 'dominant leader', you can own full out DA bulldogs and never have a fight, and they can be loose around eachother. :rolleyes:


Although I use modified Koehler and have for years, "best method for dogs" is a little bit of a stretch. If you want to talk about some damned dumb and dangerous methods for you and your dog,...think Koehler. With that said, there's a lot of useful info in his books, but dog training has come a real long way since old Bill wrote those hundred pages of affadavits in front of his books telling you how "safe" his methods were (major clue right there). In the opinion of an ex-millitary trainer friend of mine speaking on methods and dogs he trained for various uses- "my dogs are too valuable to try that Koehler shit on them."

[Blau]

Ok, well I would hope no one would be silly enough to believe that. :dogdrink:
That's some dangerous (yard accident flavored) Kool Aide

Oh, trust me, I've spoken to people who actually believe this! Also the same people who do Cesar's 'Tssshh' thing all the time. It's quite annoying.


Although I use modified Koehler and have for years, "best method for dogs" is a little bit of a stretch. If you want to talk about some damned dumb and dangerous methods for you and your dog,...think Koehler. With that said, there's a lot of useful info in his books, but dog training has come a real long way since old Bill wrote those hundred pages of affadavits in front of his books telling you how "safe" his methods were (major clue right there). In the opinion of an ex-millitary trainer friend of mine speaking on methods and dogs he trained for various uses- "my dogs are too valuable to try that Koehler shit on them."

I can definitely see what you mean... I guess it could be viewed the same way as with Cesar's methods; he's got the right idea in mind, he just isn't doing it the best or most efficient way. Granted, compared to most people on this forum, I've had barely any experience with training and modifying behavior [just with a few dogs], but I'm definitely more a fan of a healthy mix of negative correction and positive reinforcement, rather than just positive 100% 'clicker' type training.

[synno2004]

I like how people think what they see on TV works because the little montage tells you so. There are so many complaints made that once he leaves, all the problems start again or return even worse than they were before.

Trust me I believe in some methods that most would call harsh - for example I think a lot of the training techniques from the Koehler Method work great. I just don't think this man is a "Dog Whisperer" he just forces the dogs into temporary submission through force exhaustion and fear. It really is not leaving any lasting fix.

I beg to differ, STUDIES SHOW that WALKING and I am only TALKING ABOUT WALKING!!!!! solves 90% of ALL behavioral issues. That's the secret!!! walk your dog.........

[stepupDodong]

[QUOTE=ReleaseTheHounds;479835]I like how people think what they see on TV works because the little montage tells you so. There are so many complaints made that once he leaves, all the problems start again or return even worse than they were before.

Many complaints? yeah maybe there are some but maybe* because they did not do what they been told in the first place. Remember that you cannot discipline a dog in just weeks, its a tiring process and repetitive as well. I am not a CM fan but from watching him do that kind of training, man it takes a lot of balls to do that. Maybe* he dosnt have any diploma or certificate about stuffs but the bottom line is that his method is effective. :)

[babedulce]

some people have the 'gift' of understanding the CM non-traditional method and therefore can apply it effectively, some must necessarily follow more orthodox methods based on systematic behavior modification because of their inability to do away with humanizing dogs, neither is better its just a matter of an owner finding a method that they are comfortable with. I don't use any one method specifically or on purpose, I use what works for each dog I have had

[speedboat]

My only real question is how do u become a dog psycologist lmao I think cm is more of a dog psycologist than anyone who has a phd in it... Most of the dogs ive seen on the show were either a. Rescue dogs or b. The owner had let a certain behavior continue and then wanted it to stop

[speedboat]

He isnt going and taking "gamedogs" n letting them run loose together he takes da dogs n reforms them in a sense ive even saw it where some dogs he kept n gave the owners a new dog if he couldnt "fix" the dog in a timely fashion... I personally dont have those problems because I instill it in my dogs from pups the dos n donts

[gh32]

Just watched a video of him last night another member here posted and it was sickning.The dog was a HA,non DA cur and should've been put down and all that could be said was the dog was probably being trained to fight is what made him mean. Ceaser Milan is a horrible ambassador for this breed IMHO. He needs to stick to chihuahua and poodles.Even then a HA one just needs a bullet.

[babedulce]

Just watched a video of him last night another member here posted and it was sickning.The dog was a HA,non DA cur and should've been put down and all that could be said was the dog was probably being trained to fight is what made him mean. Ceaser Milan is a horrible ambassador for this breed IMHO. He needs to stick to chihuahua and poodles.Even then a HA one just needs a bullet.

I don't think CM is into gamedogs. Any public ambassador for APBT would be metaphorically crucified by both sides, pro and con APBT, its a pity, but that is just the way it is.

[sadieblues]

No this video is sickening to the core. I posted it and if anyone cares to watch it you will completely understand how Cesar Millan should not be working with any pitbull type dog no matter how it's bred. There is so much disturbing content in this video and misinformation and improper handling of a dog that should have been put down. Yet the god of Cesar claims the pitbull way of being can be fixed and that this dog is truly not a dog that needs to be put down. VERY VERY VERY sad! This dog is genetically fucked and should not still be breathing and it will kill someone it's only a matter of time SMH :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmGKtby43Oc&feature=related

[babedulce]

I dont dwell on this dude's methods but he sure has alot of people dweling on him...as the sayig goes there is no such thing as bad publicity in the media nowadays, and this guy is nothing more than a media personality and whether anyone is watching his show in praise or disapproval, they ARE watching it=ratings=relevence.

[gh32]

I agree he's got a successful show but setting some people up to try and fix broken dogs is not a good idea.I don't watch him at all but I'm sure he'll get by without me somehow,lol

[babedulce]

More than half of network and cable TV is not a good idea, but low the low IQ population has got to have something to keep their attention captivated lest they turn their attention to really important matters....LOL

[sadieblues]

I don't watch him either I stumbled upon this video by accident and wish I didn't hit play. But because of who he is unfortunately he has a very powerful influence over people. And it's a shame that he is very misinformed on the APBT and speaking as an ambassador of the breed because this dog in that video is a very dangerous dog and should have never made it to TV. Someone should have saved that dog from a later fate and just put it out of it's misery early on before someone get's seriously hurt or killed.

[Saiyagin]

I guess if you treat any dog poorly it becomes a fighting dog???? LMAOROTF

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Im still Laughing LMAO.

[sadieblues]

I guess if you treat any dog poorly it becomes a fighting dog???? LMAOROTF

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Im still Laughing LMAO.

Not to mention if all the great pit dog's acted like that dog buddy dog men would have been taken out in large numbers by their game dogs lol. What the hell would be the point of fighting a dog like that it would end up killing you in the box lmfao. Such logical reasoning I tell you.

[Lee D]

ever seen a breakstick in that border jumpers pocket?..... didnt think so


wheres that vid of him and some other fuckstick pulling two dogs apart by the back legs?

[sadieblues]

ever seen a breakstick in that border jumpers pocket?..... didnt think so


wheres that vid of him and some other fuckstick pulling two dogs apart by the back legs?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tL4unSRMKs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tL4unSRMKs

You mean this one? Oh yeah Classic shit lol And these aren't game dogs. I would pay for a front row seat to see them trying to get two game dogs apart like this lmfao. He can't even handle mutt's he would shit his pants trying to break up bulldogs.

[gh32]

Not to mention if all the great pit dog's acted like that dog buddy dog men would have been taken out in large numbers by their game dogs lol. What the hell would be the point of fighting a dog like that it would end up killing you in the box lmfao. Such logical reasoning I tell you.
Exactly,so many people think match dogs are mean to everything but you're right.A dog like that would be a handlers nightmare,lol

[Lee D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tL4unSRMKs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tL4unSRMKs



thats a fucking pack leader if i ever saw one LMAO

[babedulce]

ever seen a breakstick in that border jumpers pocket?..... didnt think so


wheres that vid of him and some other fuckstick pulling two dogs apart by the back legs?

A break stick? That's hilarious. I don't think he is that stupid.

[Lee D]

well christ, the dude has all them dogs, youd think he at least knew what one was. he sure as hell doesnt know what a good .22 is

[babedulce]

He is the dog whisperer, canine pet psychologist, not the second coming of even a mediocre working gamedog handler/conditioner...LOL give the man a break and less free advertisement.

[Lee D]

im the goldfish whisperer..the leader of the aquarium, and i keep the peace LOL

[gh32]

im the goldfish whisperer..the leader of the aquarium, and i keep the peace LOL
Thought we were the pigeon patrol,lol

[babedulce]

Either of you just dont pull them apart by the wings or the fins or you will render them useless and mandatory culls

[Lee D]

Thought we were the pigeon patrol,lol

the goldfish thing is my side job. gotta earn some extra cash any way i can LOL

[sega]

Danm I don't even see how those 2 got buddy to be cool with them that's crazy

[Zoe]

ever seen a breakstick in that border jumpers pocket?..... didnt think so




I shipped him one! LMFAO! Never seen it appear on an episode though! lol

[gh32]

I shipped him one! LMFAO! Never seen it appear on an episode though! lollol,that's funny.

[Zoe]

I thought so, too! lol

[redrumdog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tL4unSRMKs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tL4unSRMKs

You mean this one? Oh yeah Classic shit lol And these aren't game dogs. I would pay for a front row seat to see them trying to get two game dogs apart like this lmfao. He can't even handle mutt's he would shit his pants trying to break up bulldogs.
This is what happens when you put a few Pitbulls together and you don't know anything about the dogs.You would think that someone there would have a break stick.

[BIGEASY]

I trust Cesar millan's methods all the way and use what I feel is most necessary to communicate with my dogs using little to no words. I do have red zone dogs though and they tend to be my favorites and the ones I keep lol

[blanch]

I like the way he dehumanises dogs,that alone is a good thing.

you see on a lot of episodes the main problem is some middle aged woman treating the dog like a baby that has no idea what it's doing.

[bigben]

I would like to see Cesar rehabilitate a true game dog trained for fights. Can't imagine what will happen once he bring the game dog into "his" pack.

[gh32]

I think he is not good for the breed,gives people the wrong ideas on how to handle a APBT. That dog Buddy should of had his brains splattered all over then two lezi's front yard and on the show it was mentioned at least in passing about how the dog was probably that way because someone was trying to make a fighting dog out of him. Sure, a human aggressive dog that wouldn't hit the other dog,real match dog material there,lol. I don't know how he is with other breeds and don't personally care,he is no good for this breed. Sure he can manage a "pack" of worthless curs,congrats Ceaser for that fine accomplishment,I'm sure if we found him some "real" bulldogs it would be different. I personally just wished he would fade off into obscurity and get off the TV. After while every fur mommy with a halfbreed APBT will think they're the next dog whisperer and get someone eat up. Then it will be our breed's fault.

[Foundation]

I've been using and teaching wolf logic canine handling skills, long before I ever knew who Ceasar Millan was...

His methods are just as superior to all other canine training because its the same ideal roughly....

I know canines and psychology of dogs and people more than most and let me tell you the "dog whisperer" has hit the nail on the head with proper dog handling skills.
NOT EVERYONE SHOULD OWN A BULLDOG ... PERIOD...

If you get a show on TV you'll sell out too and push what the media and lawmakers want you to mention or loose your air time........ Thats America..

if his methods don't work for you don't use em; I for one don't have any problem handling bulldogs with wolf logic and I put alot of newbs and greenhorns on his book. They work better than the K9 training methods I've seen, & used in the field and in training.

If you don't have confidence with two bulldogs loose then you don't.. If you can't make a difference with in the first few minutes by using these methods then they're simply not for you. Go back to your methods of direct hands on control. If your a seasoned dog man or woman his methods that are legit stand out to us because they work and we can see through the garb; the dogs have to be rehabilitated and the human needs trained........... simply the dog is a dog and the human is the master, don't expect a dog to be anything less than a dog. I don't live in fear so I don't know how to not make it work but I know that his methods don't work for people who have to much ego and people who have to little confidence, his methods are to condition the dog and train the human.. WHICH IMO most humans need, as every human is an expert and knows sht..

for those with high end bulldogs its all real simple; if you want them to work together you have to give them something to work on together; like 2 or 3 coyotes or more or letting two high end dogs go on a bear. TRUST ME they'll get the critter everytime as long as it promotes a bigger challenge than the dog next to em. That I used both K9 tactics and wolf logic to promote my dogs working together. HOWEVER constant vigilance is a necessity and if I drop my attention for the least bit, the dogs do as the dogs do.

Sadie has some high end dogs and can let them run together for a bit and knows just what Im talkin about. Im NOT promoting they live together openly in the home every dog has its crate, kennel, or chain spot HOWEVER they SHOULD know your master and how to be together in a working environment or a relaxed environment.

Most of you have used some of his methods using wolf logic as I've called it for 20yrs; ya'll have used them knowingly or unknowingly and a good deal of you talk sht cause it didn't work for you. I would imagine you lost yourself in your emotions which aren't rational or calm.

Opinions vary~

Find what works for your dog and what works for you; I'll use wolf logic handling dogs as long as their are dogs to be handled. We never stop learning .. enlightenment is around every corner..

if your calm and assertive and know bulldogs the methods by CM will work 90% of the time.. Bulldogs like to fight so sometimes they just like to fight, regardless of what you'd like em to do. Calmly break it up.. If my dogs get into it cause they break loose at night they will kill each other, I can wake up and step out half dead myself and let out a AHT; and my dogs will run up to me side by side bloody as fk and pleased as punch. They stopped because Im authority always in there mind. I'll pick em both up by scruff and run em into the tree and show em whos top dog in this yard. Fighting each other IS NOT tolerated and they know this at early days. The grown hammonds dog and chavis dog I got both understood my energy while everyone else had a handfull of problems with them and This is something the HUMAN has to do with HIS/HER dogs and time, get inside their head, wolf logic or dog whisperer methods are the best way to do this. JM 2 cents..

[BIGEASY]

there are those "unfixable" dogs that are called REDZONE CASES lol which are my favorite. Ive got nothing but redzone cases on my yard. haha