Form follows function?

[fblb]

Personally I don't believe form follows function in this breed, but I would like to hear what y'all think. Do you believe form follows function? If so what makes you believe this? If not...why not? Thought this would be an interesting thread idea. Let's hear it.

[Dream Pits]

of course it does. Its not something that is necessary to get the job done but it will give an advantage. Im not saying it determines the better performer by any means but it would help an individual. I wouldnt necessarily breed for form but im not gonna let my line get all deformed and shit bc that will cause a decrease in performance. I think if u just breed the best performers u will continue to have decent FUNCTION be the dogs those are USUALLY the dogs that are performing. JMO

[Yardboy]

IMO, it can't hurt. But if the heart ain't there, it can be the most perfectly conformed dog in world and it ain't gonna matter. Now if you have two dogs with an equal amount of drive but one is built for it better, he has a better chance. But the key word is chance and anything can happen. I personally don't believe the better dog always won.

[magnoilaotis]

Function dictates form. The alligator dogs are some of the ugliest dogs around, but still functional. Just look at the different forms some of the top dogs take. I've seen heavy redboy dogs so out at the shoulder it looked like they couldn't walk. Let them loose different story. Seen a bitch with a whippet head that could shut it like few others. Function creates the the next form.

[ReleaseTheHounds]

I think with these dogs that statement was meant to be applied to a range of "forms". I wouldn't take the statement as a rule or something always true, of course there are exceptions. The way I personally interpret that statement is more that, everything on a bulldog should serve some type of purpose. They are not a breed for excess or looks, but for work and their form should reflect the working function.

An example of the opposite would be an XXL Bully - excess without function.

I know I'm kind of putting a looser interpretation on the statement but I think that is the only way to make it applicable.

[noblebostons]

form follows function because- function without form is still FUNCTION. Form with out function is USELESS. Obviously there is an ideal that is fully functional and has pleasing form as well, but if you had to pick one or the other, you'd better pick function!

[Laced Wit Game]

???form follow function????:confused:

[Dreamer]

of course it does. Its not something that is necessary to get the job done but it will give an advantage. Im not saying it determines the better performer by any means but it would help an individual. I wouldnt necessarily breed for form but im not gonna let my line get all deformed and shit bc that will cause a decrease in performance. I think if u just breed the best performers u will continue to have decent FUNCTION be the dogs those are USUALLY the dogs that are performing. JMO

:goodposting:

[Dreamer]

???form follow function????:confused:

Generally thinking, yes. Think cheetahs. Racing Greyhounds. I believe the "form" is not as consistent in game dogs because there is such a MENTAL aspect to being successful; but, as Dream Pits stated, form will be important when all things are equal.

I have been appalled at some in the game dogs who seem to take great pride in their deformed, game dog -- only to make the point that, "I don't breed for looks". In other words, having a deformed dog is supposed to prove something...taking it THAT far, I don't like.

Dreamer

[Bullnuts]

I've heard- When determination is in question always breed to the well formed dogs!
I don't subscribe to that notion! Form will always fallow funtion with me. But form will play a large roll in performance up until the invisible and most important trait comes into play!

[Dream Pits]

in performance animals ur always see them shaped a certain way to fit that function such as the deep chest of cheetahs and greyhounds. now i wouldnt breed based on conformation but i think that if breeding performers conformation will take care of itself

[NewSchoolDogMan]

Yes, form does follow function, BUT there are a wide range of forms that suits the functional aspects of the breed. For example, a dog with easty westy feet tend to have better balance and harder to get taken down, or so some people have told me. Then you have dogs roach backs. Apparently the roach back allows for a stronger spring in their steps and faster acceleration. Conformation wise, roach and easty westy is just horrible.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

btw, I'd also like to add that function always follows form, but form doesn't necessarily follow function. Look at all the pretty show dogs out there with their championships and grand championships. Yet almost none can catch a hog or perform the task they were meant to.

[Bobby Rooster]

You can have all the "want to" in the world but with out the right tools nothing is gonna get done, Same way with, you may have all the right tools but you don't have a "want to", then nothing is going to get done either.... Balance and Specializing may seam like they shouldn't go together but they can, and when they do then that is a force. You shouldn't sacrifice one other the other, The idea is, Be superior in your endeavor, Perfection is the goal, for average never holds Greatness to its name. Mind and Body perfection in One is what we all strive to get.

[steinlin]

Yes, form does follow function, BUT there are a wide range of forms that suits the functional aspects of the breed. For example, a dog with easty westy feet tend to have better balance and harder to get taken down, or so some people have told me. Then you have dogs roach backs. Apparently the roach back allows for a stronger spring in their steps and faster acceleration. Conformation wise, roach and easty westy is just horrible.

The structure/form determines how it will function.
The condition of the structure/form determines how well it will function
Deviation from the structure/form will cause it to function differently, dependant on how slight or excessive.


"For example, a dog with easty westy feet tend to have better balance and harder to get taken down, or so some people have told me."

Dogs with easty westy feet are better balanced and harder to take down as compared to dogs that are'nt deformed?
If they are speaking literally, then maybe those dogs they saw, were, but if they are saying that the 'easty westy legs' makes most dogs better functioning for what they were bred for...then I strongly disagree, as history shows.

Deformaties or deviations from form, depending on how severe, causes the dog to compensate for the deviation and function differently. Sometimes very well, but it seems to me, it would'nt be something to base a breeding program on?

Just my humble opinion

[NewSchoolDogMan]

The structure/form determines how it will function.
The condition of the structure/form determines how well it will function
Deviation from the structure/form will cause it to function differently, dependant on how slight or excessive.


"For example, a dog with easty westy feet tend to have better balance and harder to get taken down, or so some people have told me."

Dogs with easty westy feet are better balanced and harder to take down as compared to dogs that are'nt deformed?
If they are speaking literally, then maybe those dogs they saw, were, but if they are saying that the 'easty westy legs' makes most dogs better functioning for what they were bred for...then I strongly disagree, as history shows.

Deformaties or deviations from form, depending on how severe, causes the dog to compensate for the deviation and function differently. Sometimes very well, but it seems to me, it would'nt be something to base a breeding program on?


Just my humble opinion

Yep and that is exactly my point on there being multiple "forms" since dogs that don't follow another dog's form can very well still be a great dog. I also agree on that you should not base a program off of deformities, especially easty westy. However, a few dogs had them and they more than compensated. I think the bottomline is, heart is what dictates a bulldog, not form or conformation.

[gringopistolero]

I think that if you look at the better performing dogs you will find they also posses excelent form as well. Due to the type of work this breed does a dogs physical qualities are just as important as the non-physical ones such as gameness, ability...etc. and it would seem that in this breed more than any other, form and function are linked together and are the rule more than the exception.

[Dream Pits]

thank you gringo. gameness is number one quality overall. but if the dog doesnt have the build to do what its mind is attempting then its not gonna work, usually...

[Boze]

when choosing a stud dog or brood bitch you want both and you need both. if you base your line on a deformed dog then you are going backwards. there are so many good dogs that it is easy to find one with both form and function. IMO they should go hand and hand

[Dream Pits]

when choosing a stud dog or brood bitch you want both and you need both. if you base your line on a deformed dog then you are going backwards. there are so many good dogs that it is easy to find one with both form and function. IMO they should go hand and hand
:cheers::goodposting::cheers:

[Laced Wit Game]

Generally thinking, yes. Think cheetahs. Racing Greyhounds. I believe the "form" is not as consistent in game dogs because there is such a MENTAL aspect to being successful; but, as Dream Pits stated, form will be important when all things are equal.

I have been appalled at some in the game dogs who seem to take great pride in their deformed, game dog -- only to make the point that, "I don't breed for looks". In other words, having a deformed dog is supposed to prove something...taking it THAT far, I don't like.

Dreamer

hey performance first, conformation come second! ;)

[NewSchoolDogMan]

hey performance first, conformation come second! ;)

Definitely

[Dream Pits]

hey performance first, conformation come second! ;)
would u start a line with two poorly conformed dogs that performed very well LWG?

[PurePit19]

IMO, form follows function. If you look at any sport, majority of your dominant players are very simular In structure. Take basketball for instance, there are not many players that are above average in talent, that are under 6 ft. Look at the vast majority of your great players, they all have simular structure; Jordan, magic, dr j, pippen, Kobe.... They all have the form, that allows them to excell at the specific function of basketball. Spud Webb was a very talented individual who was a exception of the rule, but had to work twice as hard to be above average.
Take your great pit dogs; mayday, buck, mongoose, jeep, zebo.... All these greats had beautiful form that allowed them to excell beyond your average bulldog. Yes, the mental aspect needs to be there, but so does the form of the dog. Without out proper form, each dog is limited in his/her capabilities depending on the function. Just as such, a NFL linebacker can be a good basketball player, but lacks the form to be a NBA great at the specific function of basketball. JMO

[Dream Pits]

great post purepits, im not sayin conformation is more important bc its not and its not the focus but it plays a rule. if you are breeding good performance dog chances are you will end up with good conformation anyways.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

IMO, form follows function. If you look at any sport, majority of your dominant players are very simular In structure. Take basketball for instance, there are not many players that are above average in talent, that are under 6 ft. Look at the vast majority of your great players, they all have simular structure; Jordan, magic, dr j, pippen, Kobe.... They all have the form, that allows them to excell at the specific function of basketball. Spud Webb was a very talented individual who was a exception of the rule, but had to work twice as hard to be above average.
Take your great pit dogs; mayday, buck, mongoose, jeep, zebo.... All these greats had beautiful form that allowed them to excell beyond your average bulldog. Yes, the mental aspect needs to be there, but so does the form of the dog. Without out proper form, each dog is limited in his/her capabilities depending on the function. Just as such, a NFL linebacker can be a good basketball player, but lacks the form to be a NBA great at the specific function of basketball. JMO

That would depend on your definition of "beautiful"

Mayday was slightly bowed when standing naturally and also had a minor sway back
http://www.grandchampionmaydayrom.com/img/mayday/p23.jpg

Mongoose's right leg was slightly bowed
http://www.pit-bull.cn/new/20070329132533.jpg
Gr. Ch. Sampson, a dog that was supposedly a nasty pit dog. Look at his "form." The boy had a bowed right leg and a noticeable swayback
http://www.antohinkennels.com/gallery/stp_gr_ch_sampson.jpg

Now would I try and create dogs with these forms, no. But would I say these dogs can perform, Hell Yes.

[ben brockton]

Sampson was sold for 80K i doubt any confermation ch has ever went for that amount. too bad he was shot by some soldiers in eastern europe not to long after rick shipped him & 2 other dogs off.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

Sampson was sold for 80K i doubt any confermation ch has ever went for that amount. too bad he was shot by some soldiers in eastern europe not to long after rick shipped him & 2 other dogs off.

Yeah, sampson was supposedly a nasty dog that was unstoppable in the []. It sucks he got shot by soldiers, I don't think he was bred much.

[PurePit19]

The pick of mayday is when he was old, see him in the SDJ? I've seen pics of a ton of dogs before they start their hunting careers. Which the sport alone depending on damage, can and often does chang a dogs form. Slight defects such as a slight bowed legs will not change a dogs ability much. But rickets, cow hoks, severe roach back, cleft pallets, easty westy feet, and barrell chests can definitely take alot of ability out of A dog. These are the defects to avoid, so when I pick a pup, I start with the ones I think have the best conformation. JMO

[NewSchoolDogMan]

The pick of mayday is when he was old, see him in the SDJ? I've seen pics of a ton of dogs before they start their hunting careers. Which the sport alone depending on damage, can and often does chang a dogs form. Slight defects such as a slight bowed legs will not change a dogs ability much. But rickets, cow hoks, severe roach back, cleft pallets, easty westy feet, and barrell chests can definitely take alot of ability out of A dog. These are the defects to avoid, so when I pick a pup, I start with the ones I think have the best conformation. JMO

Yeah, the pic of mayday was when he has been retired, but that is also the only pic where he is standing naturally. The pic of him in the SDJ shows him leaning slightly forward on the leash, but you can still see the minor bow leg.

Look at the right leg, it is still bowed (which in the conformation ring is a fault)
http://www.gamedog.info/rom/images/Southern%20Kennel%27s%20GR%20CH%20May%20Day%20ROM_ jpg.jpg

[ben brockton]

you better believe rick backed him up to damn neer every bitch on the yard before he left florida.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

you better believe rick backed him up to damn neer every bitch on the yard before he left florida.

You know of anyone that still has stuff off of him? I hear there are people running sampson stuff in their yard, but they keep it to themselves.

[ben brockton]

the last dogs i seen off sampson were back in the 90's around the tampa / st pete area. im sure they are crossed up nowadays like most of the later jones dogs.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

the last dogs i seen off sampson were back in the 90's around the tampa / st pete area. im sure they are crossed up nowadays like most of the later jones dogs.

yeah, sampson was one hell of a dog though. Do you have any more info on this dog?

[ben brockton]

no more then what's already been put in the history books.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

no more then what's already been put in the history books.

Oh, I thought you had the opportunity to handle the boy.

[JamesT]

Sampson was sold for 80K i doubt any confermation ch has ever went for that amount. too bad he was shot by some soldiers in eastern europe not to long after rick shipped him & 2 other dogs off.

If that don't make ya sick,i don't know what would.

[magnoilaotis]

I can't remember if I heard it or read it, but someone said he may have been sterile due to roids.

[ben brockton]

lol jamesT if i remember right it was a 3 dog deal that include ch mandy 15k & one other male 2x for 10k. rick was already ritch & had a yard full of good'n so no skin off his teeth. sheeeet around that time rick was known to drop 80K in "party favors" for his guest.

[ben brockton]

otis they bred him when he got to eastern europe & got pups.

[NewSchoolDogMan]

lol jamesT if i remember right it was a 3 dog deal that include ch mandy 15k & one other male 2x for 10k. rick was already ritch & had a yard full of good'n so no skin off his teeth. sheeeet around that time rick was known to drop 80K in "party favors" for his guest.

LOL, 55K is still a lot of money for a dog, but I'd rather spend 55K on a good dog like gr. ch. sampson than that much on a bully or conformation dog lol.

[ben brockton]

no 80K is what sampson went for 3 dog deal 105k if my math is right.

[steinlin]

http://i48.tinypic.com/2qnbfvb.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/29mrdw7.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/21eyxp3.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/qodkjs.jpg

Form and function...all gr ch's